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[ksurf] WARNING : 2 LINE CONTROL BARS WITHOUT QUICK RELEASE

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  • Bruno Legaignoux
    WARNING FROM WIPIKA INTERNATIONAL After reading some messages about control bars on the list, it seems needful to tell this : Everybody must use a device
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 29, 1998
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      WARNING FROM WIPIKA INTERNATIONAL

      After reading some messages about control bars on the list, it seems needful
      to tell this :

      Everybody must use a device which allows him to INSTANTANEOUSLY DEPOWER even
      during a fall or during an incontrolled jump/drag. Most accidents with power
      kites happen when the wing is out of control and the pilot unable to
      depower.

      - don't believe that dehooking from the harness is possible when the wing
      pulls too much. Don't believe that you can always dehook and loosen the bar
      in case of emergency.
      - anyhow, loosening the bar is dangerous for the people on the beach which
      can be hurt. A Wipika wing attached to a (heavy) bar can fly for miles, can
      reach the beach, cross the road...
      - to depower a 5m Wipika, a length difference of 5 meters between the right
      and the left line is required. So attaching a leash between a side of the
      control bar and the wrist or harness is extremely dangerous. If you loosen
      the bar, the Wipika wing will make small circles, getting a huge power, and
      you will not be able to reach your bar anymore to stop the wing turning.
      - most bars with reel don't allow to depower a Wipika wing.

      Actually the safer device we know is a quick release attached to one side of
      the bar, with a short leash between the quick release and the wrist. With
      that, you can open the quick release/wing in half a second even if dragged
      under water or on your back.

      ANY (single or reel) BAR WITHOUT AN INSTANTANEOUS QUICK RELEASE IS A DANGER
      FOR YOU AND THE PEOPLE

      Take care.
      Bruno



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    • Dave Culp
      ... FWIW, there is a *huge* difference betsween a quick release and a deadman release. This topic has generated thousands if not hundreds of thousands of
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 30, 1998
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        Bruno:
        >Everybody must use a device which allows him to INSTANTANEOUSLY DEPOWER even
        >during a fall or during an incontrolled jump/drag.

        FWIW, there is a *huge* difference betsween a "quick release" and a
        "deadman release."

        This topic has generated thousands if not hundreds of thousands of words
        of traffic on rec.kites (serach Dejanews for "kite deadman") Shortest
        version: A "quick release" requires some conscious, positive action from
        a pilot who's, well, conscious, in control of his muscles, has access to
        the device, and which isn't broken or jammed, etc. Many, many kite
        buggiers and not a few bystanders have been seriously injured (at least
        one fatality), by airborne kiting equipment, with and without "quick
        releases" attached. Don't use them.

        A "deadman" release, OTOH, is a release which lets the kite loose when
        the pilot *stops* doing something, such as stops holding onto the bar or
        handles, or in the case of boats or buggies, perhaps stops sitting in the
        craft. (A proper deadman should release *only* the kite, line and
        attaching loops--nothing hard metal or plastic remains attached to the
        released lines) Bruno's suggestion, and many of the releases used by the
        guys (and ladies) on this list are proper deadman releases, and are just
        fine. Others, from the "I can unhook at any time" jocks, to the "I just
        pull the pin on this shackle and it all comes loose" crowd are courting
        disaster. (Of coures, there are none of these guys here! ;-)

        Please, please, learn the difference. Do not use a device just because it
        is simple to make or get, then believe you and bystanders are safe. Make
        a *conscious* decision whether or not to use a DEADMAN release, then take
        the time to acquire or design and construct a good one. Do *not* believe
        you can unhook, or even that you can pull a "ripcord" or similar in order
        to release your kite.

        There was a good bit of traffic 18 months ago on Kitesail about this as
        well. For those subscribing to that list, search your back issues.
        Subscribe by sending a request to: kitesail-request@...

        You can see a variety of deadman releases at:
        http://www.kfs.org/kites/kitesail/handles.html These these are
        provisional and by no means make up a comprehensive set of releases
        available; some are well tested, even commercially available--some are
        purely conjecture. None offer any sort of guarantee or liability
        indemnification, for obvious reasons. Please have a look and fly safely.
        Lives depend on it.

        --
        Dave Culp Speedsailing dave@... http://www.dcss.org/speedsl
        Kite powered boats, high speed sailing, proas and more. Check it out!


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      • Lex Schaapherder
        Th question whether to use a quick release or a deadman release is in my opinion a personal one. Where ever you kite your main concern must be the public. My
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 31, 1998
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          Th question whether to use a quick release or a deadman release is in my
          opinion a personal one. Where ever you kite your main concern must be the
          public. My experience taught me that just the kite with the lines attached
          can pose a risc. A runaway kite with a rigid frame can hurt people not to
          mention those helpful bystanders trying to rescue your kite by grabbing the
          lines to find you can get real burns from this.

          Don't forget there is no absolute control you can exert over your kite if
          anything goes wrong. Just make sure in case you lose a kite there enough
          landing space. I managed to lose a Nasa Para Wing, some 8,5 sq m., which
          flew for a third mile before coming down.

          Currently I use a quickrelease which keeps the handles and the steering
          mechanism attached to the kite. I build a release based on the one used on a
          parachuteharness. It's a system of interlocking D-rings so you can loosen
          yourself from the kite even at full traction.

          Let's not make the same mistakes all over. Here in Holland we've lost plenty
          of places by idiots who think they are alone on this world.

          Lex Schaapherder, a dedicated kiter and a beginning kiteskier

          > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
          > Van: Dave Culp [mailto:dave@...]
          > Verzonden: zaterdag 31 oktober 1998 5:15
          > Aan: kitesurf@egroups.com
          > Onderwerp: [ksurf] Quick Release vs Deadman
          >
          >
          > Bruno:
          > >Everybody must use a device which allows him to INSTANTANEOUSLY
          > DEPOWER even
          > >during a fall or during an incontrolled jump/drag.
          >
          > FWIW, there is a *huge* difference betsween a "quick release" and a
          > "deadman release."
          >
          > This topic has generated thousands if not hundreds of thousands of words
          > of traffic on rec.kites (serach Dejanews for "kite deadman") Shortest
          > version: A "quick release" requires some conscious, positive action from
          > a pilot who's, well, conscious, in control of his muscles, has access to
          > the device, and which isn't broken or jammed, etc. Many, many kite
          > buggiers and not a few bystanders have been seriously injured (at least
          > one fatality), by airborne kiting equipment, with and without "quick
          > releases" attached. Don't use them.
          >
          > A "deadman" release, OTOH, is a release which lets the kite loose when
          > the pilot *stops* doing something, such as stops holding onto the bar or
          > handles, or in the case of boats or buggies, perhaps stops sitting in the
          > craft. (A proper deadman should release *only* the kite, line and
          > attaching loops--nothing hard metal or plastic remains attached to the
          > released lines) Bruno's suggestion, and many of the releases used by the
          > guys (and ladies) on this list are proper deadman releases, and are just
          > fine. Others, from the "I can unhook at any time" jocks, to the "I just
          > pull the pin on this shackle and it all comes loose" crowd are courting
          > disaster. (Of coures, there are none of these guys here! ;-)
          >
          > Please, please, learn the difference. Do not use a device just because it
          > is simple to make or get, then believe you and bystanders are safe. Make
          > a *conscious* decision whether or not to use a DEADMAN release, then take
          > the time to acquire or design and construct a good one. Do *not* believe
          > you can unhook, or even that you can pull a "ripcord" or similar in order
          > to release your kite.
          >
          > There was a good bit of traffic 18 months ago on Kitesail about this as
          > well. For those subscribing to that list, search your back issues.
          > Subscribe by sending a request to: kitesail-request@...
          >
          > You can see a variety of deadman releases at:
          > http://www.kfs.org/kites/kitesail/handles.html These these are
          > provisional and by no means make up a comprehensive set of releases
          > available; some are well tested, even commercially available--some are
          > purely conjecture. None offer any sort of guarantee or liability
          > indemnification, for obvious reasons. Please have a look and fly safely.
          > Lives depend on it.
          >
          > --
          > Dave Culp Speedsailing dave@... http://www.dcss.org/speedsl
          > Kite powered boats, high speed sailing, proas and more. Check it out!
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          > $29.95 plus S & H ($5.95 for most domestic locations) for one
          > dozen roses and shipped direct from the grower via Fedex
          > Priority Overnight. http://www.proflowers.com/eg.cfm
          >
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          >

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        • Dave Culp
          ... As you say, a personal decision. You should know that it was a system such as yours--a kite handle attached to a runaway kite--which killed a child several
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 31, 1998
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            Lex:
            >The question whether to use a quick release or a deadman release is in my
            >opinion a personal one....

            >Currently I use a quickrelease which keeps the handles and the steering
            >mechanism attached to the kite. I build a release based on the one used on a
            >parachuteharness. It's a system of interlocking D-rings so you can loosen
            >yourself from the kite even at full traction.

            As you say, a personal decision. You should know that it was a system
            such as yours--a kite handle attached to a runaway kite--which killed a
            child several years ago on the beach. The handle hit her in the temple
            (side of forehead), crushing her skull. Doctors said such a blow would
            have killed a grown man. Horribly bad luck, but something to think about.
            Do you *really* want your entire bar flying through the air, at perhaps
            twice the windspeed as it pendulums down behind the runaway kite?

            --
            Dave Culp Speedsailing dave@... http://www.dcss.org/speedsl
            Kite powered boats, high speed sailing, proas and more. Check it out!


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          • Hung Vu
            ... Dave, you can call me Hung. ... I originally had a similar idea using knots and ring; however I dropped it in the end due to the following reasons: 1- The
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 1, 1998
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              Dave Culp wrote:
              >
              > What I think Hung Vu means (I apologize, is your first name Hung or Vu?)
              > is that it is possible to take a wrist strap line to a point several
              > meters up one line. His "tube" device is not necessary, in my view. Just
              > attach the wrist line to the main flying line, perhaps at a knot (tie a
              > figure 8 knot in the main line, then use a lark's head knot to attach the
              > wrist line. Better, use a sewn-in overwrap, which won't weaken the flying
              > line--see below). On letting go of the bar, the wrist line will keep only
              > one line attached to the flyer. I'm sure many kite surfers use this.
              >

              Dave, you can call me Hung.

              > Taking it a bit further, the wrist line can end in a small metal ring,
              > running free on a "reeled" kiteline. Near the end of the line, a "button"
              > (thickened spot in the line, perhaps a large knot, or bead, or sewn-in
              > overwrap of small thread, varnished or epoxied to make it rigid), small
              > enough to pass through the fairleads on the (altered) flying bar, yet too
              > large to pass through the wrist-strap line ring, will effectively attach
              > the wrist strap to one flying line, yet allow freely reeling the line in
              > and out.
              >

              I originally had a similar idea using knots and ring; however I dropped
              it in the end due to the following reasons:

              1- The main attraction of the reel system (as far as I know) is such
              that the kitesurfer can fly the kite at any desired line length without
              having to change the line (am I right or was it my wish? Depending on
              the condition and kite size, I have to change my lines between 20m to
              30m on my control bar). I am not sure how to support flying with
              different line length with a knots&ring quick release system.
              2- I afraid knots will weaken the line.
              3- I afraid knots or any "buttons" (if big enough) may create
              line-locking-up when reeling in or out

              >Using this concept relies on the wrist strap *not* coming un-velcro-ed,
              >as happened to Dave. This bothers me a bit as, if completely foolproof,
              >could endanger your arm. Yet it keeps the entire kite attached to the
              >flyer, and is easy to recover--just swim to the bar or pull it to you,
              >after the kite goes in.

              The un-velcro-ed wrist strap also bothers me (what happens if a boat
              catches one of the line and drag you along with it?). I am just
              wondering whether a double-velcro system (one attached to your wrist,
              the other one attached to your harness) is more desirable.

              Hung.
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            • Pierce Nichols
              ... This sounds like an excellent idea. Why do you think it has to be rigid? Also, are you sure that a metal ring of the approprate size will be strong enough?
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 1, 1998
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                On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Dave Culp wrote:

                > Taking it a bit further, the wrist line can end in a small metal ring,
                > running free on a "reeled" kiteline. Near the end of the line, a "button"
                > (thickened spot in the line, perhaps a large knot, or bead, or sewn-in
                > overwrap of small thread, varnished or epoxied to make it rigid), small
                > enough to pass through the fairleads on the (altered) flying bar, yet too
                > large to pass through the wrist-strap line ring, will effectively attach
                > the wrist strap to one flying line, yet allow freely reeling the line in
                > and out.

                This sounds like an excellent idea. Why do you think it has to be
                rigid? Also, are you sure that a metal ring of the approprate size will be
                strong enough? I think sleeving a bit of line in the appropriate place,
                then folding it over and sewing it together would do the trick. You might
                need slightly large fairleads, but that's pretty easy.

                > Using this concept relies on the wrist strap *not* coming un-velcro-ed,
                > as happened to Dave. This bothers me a bit as, if completely foolproof,
                > could endanger your arm. Yet it keeps the entire kite attached to the
                > flyer, and is easy to recover--just swim to the bar or pull it to you,
                > after the kite goes in.

                Well, instead of attaching the safety line to your wrist, you
                could clip it to your harness, or possibly even a simple secondary
                harness, like a chest strap, so it still works even if your harness
                breaks. This takes care of the risk of a broken arm and the wrist strap
                coming undone.

                -p

                "There are four boxes that are used in the defense of liberty.
                Soap, Ballot, Jury, and Ammo. Use in that order."

                -Anon

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              • Ian Young
                I m having a little difficulty following some of these descriptions. Can someone post some sketches as JPEG file attachments please. Cheers, Ian WinDesigns
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 1, 1998
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                  I'm having a little difficulty following some of these descriptions.

                  Can someone post some sketches as JPEG file attachments please.

                  Cheers,
                  Ian

                  WinDesigns Australia:
                  9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
                  Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                  Mobile: 0414 716 812
                  Email: IanYoung@...
                  Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/

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                • Ian Young
                  ... When ridge soaring my hang glider on coastal sites I always take a hook knife. Maybe I should take it Kite Ski&Surfing too! Cheers, Ian WinDesigns
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 1, 1998
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                    > The un-velcro-ed wrist strap also bothers me (what happens if a boat
                    > catches one of the line and drag you along with it?).

                    When ridge soaring my hang glider on coastal sites I always take a hook knife.
                    Maybe I should take it Kite Ski&Surfing too!

                    Cheers,
                    Ian

                    WinDesigns Australia:
                    9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
                    Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                    Mobile: 0414 716 812
                    Email: IanYoung@...
                    Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/

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                  • Dave Culp
                    Have a look at commercial fishing set-ups. On any boat using outriggers (salmon, albacore, swordfish; most hobbiest sportfishermen), they use similar systems.
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 2, 1998
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                      Have a look at commercial fishing set-ups. On any boat using outriggers
                      (salmon, albacore, swordfish; most hobbiest sportfishermen), they use
                      similar systems. Generally they use a ring tied into the main line, with
                      the line running freely through another ring attached to the outrigger
                      pole. The main-line ring is designed to pass through all
                      pulleys/fairleads/winches, just not through the (final) smaller ring on
                      the outrigger pole line. Using this, the outrigger takes the pull when
                      trolling, but the fisherman takes the fish over when fighting it, just by
                      reeling in some line.

                      >> Taking it a bit further, the wrist line can end in a small metal ring,
                      >> running free on a "reeled" kiteline. Near the end of the line, a "button"
                      >> (thickened spot in the line, perhaps a large knot, or bead, or sewn-in
                      >> overwrap of small thread, varnished or epoxied to make it rigid), small
                      >> enough to pass through the fairleads on the (altered) flying bar, yet too
                      >> large to pass through the wrist-strap line ring, will effectively attach
                      >> the wrist strap to one flying line, yet allow freely reeling the line in
                      >> and out.
                      >
                      > This sounds like an excellent idea. Why do you think it has to be
                      >rigid? Also, are you sure that a metal ring of the approprate size will be
                      >strong enough? I think sleeving a bit of line in the appropriate place,
                      >then folding it over and sewing it together would do the trick. You might
                      >need slightly large fairleads, but that's pretty easy.

                      --
                      Dave Culp Speedsailing dave@... http://www.dcss.org/speedsl
                      Kite powered boats, high speed sailing, proas and more. Check it out!


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                    • Ian Young
                      I don t want anyone to take this the wrong way - I assure you that I want this sport to be as safe as possible. But I think with the number of learners (myself
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 3, 1998
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                        I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way - I assure you that I want this
                        sport to be as safe as possible.

                        But I think with the number of learners (myself included) that are reading these
                        postings on quick and deadman releases, that a point is made about the
                        importance of commitment, determination and judgement.

                        I have been developing a training package for the school I will be starting soon
                        and when teaching friends and family I have found that it takes some time for
                        people to get used to the power that these kites can generate.

                        A common fault I have observed is that until confidence is built through
                        practise/ experience, people tend to lack commitment and determination to keep
                        control of the kite at all times eg often when a power kite starts to pull hard,
                        learners tend to walk toward the kite rather than lean back against the pull -
                        obvious to the experienced kite flyer: without tension on the lines you can't
                        effectively control the kite!

                        I would hate to see people defaulting to releasing a kite pre-maturely rather
                        than fighting to regain/ keep control of a kite. Even with all the released
                        discussed to date you still have a kite falling or flying with lines trailing
                        from it that can still injure people or tangle on stationary or moving objects.
                        A kite without tension on the lines (released or otherwise) is still out of
                        control!

                        The key IMO, is judgement of when to release a kite because there is no chance
                        of bringing it back under control.

                        Something else that may be worth considering that we use hang gliding when aero
                        or vehicle towing is the compulsory use of weak-links (usually 1.2G) in addition
                        to a "three ring circus" quick release.

                        Cheers,
                        Ian

                        WinDesigns Australia:
                        9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
                        Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                        Mobile: 0414 716 812
                        Email: IanYoung@...
                        Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/

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                      • Michel Montmigny
                        Ian Young wrote: I don t want anyone to take this the wrong way - I assure you that I want this sport to be as safe as possible. But I think with
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 3, 1998
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                          Ian Young wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way - I assure you that I want this
                          > sport to be as safe as possible.
                          >
                          > But I think with the number of learners (myself included) that are reading these
                          > postings on quick and deadman releases, that a point is made about the
                          > importance of commitment, determination and judgement.
                          >
                          > I have been developing a training package for the school I will be starting soon
                          > and when teaching friends and family I have found that it takes some time for
                          > people to get used to the power that these kites can generate.
                          >
                          > A common fault I have observed is that until confidence is built through
                          > practise/ experience, people tend to lack commitment and determination to keep
                          > control of the kite at all times eg often when a power kite starts to pull hard,
                          > learners tend to walk toward the kite rather than lean back against the pull -
                          > obvious to the experienced kite flyer: without tension on the lines you can't
                          > effectively control the kite!
                          >
                          > I would hate to see people defaulting to releasing a kite pre-maturely rather
                          > than fighting to regain/ keep control of a kite. Even with all the released
                          > discussed to date you still have a kite falling or flying with lines trailing
                          > from it that can still injure people or tangle on stationary or moving objects.
                          > A kite without tension on the lines (released or otherwise) is still out of
                          > control!
                          >
                          > The key IMO, is judgement of when to release a kite because there is no chance
                          > of bringing it back under control.
                          >
                          > Something else that may be worth considering that we use hang gliding when aero
                          > or vehicle towing is the compulsory use of weak-links (usually 1.2G) in addition
                          > to a "three ring circus" quick release.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > Ian
                          >
                          > WinDesigns Australia:
                          > 9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
                          > Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                          > Mobile: 0414 716 812
                          > Email: IanYoung@...
                          > Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > Know someone who deserves flowers? At proflowers.com, it's only $29.95
                          >
                          > plus S & H ($5.95 for most domestic locations) for one dozen roses and
                          >
                          > shipped direct from the grower via Fedex Priority Overnight.
                          >
                          > http://www.proflowers.com/eg.cfm
                          >
                          > Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
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                          Just few worlds to say that the most important thing to learn(to me) and
                          know about Kitesurfing sport, is how manage the kite in any conditions.
                          After that let's go on the water and have fun.
                          For a 10 hours kitesurfing lesson, I teach 70% kites practice.

                          I make traction kites(TRACTIONtm) since 1991 and practice traction sport
                          since that time, this is my first kitesurfing season and it's going
                          well.

                          I agree with all those that are trying to make that sport very safe,
                          this is the only one way to grow.

                          Have nice breeze

                          Michel Montminy
                          www.conceptair.com
                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          Know someone who deserves flowers? At proflowers.com, it's only $29.95
                          plus S & H ($5.95 for most domestic locations) for one dozen roses and
                          shipped direct from the grower via Fedex Priority Overnight.
                          http://www.proflowers.com/eg.cfm

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