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Re: leash?front v back self land?

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  • Peter Frank
    Oops - forgot that one - with the rear line tug, you can land on whatever side you want ! This is a HUGE advantage - especially because it is the only possible
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
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      Oops - forgot that one - with the rear line tug, you can land on
      whatever side you want !
      This is a HUGE advantage - especially because it is the only possible
      way, in very narrow places.

      :-) Peter

      -- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
      > Yeah - Skip, Steve is right.
      >
      > The frontlines are most used, because it won't give a spin effect,
      > and because it gives you the choice to use bridles or not (not
      > possible with a rear leashed kite), and because you have the
      > leashline centered so it won't be as annoying if its a little slack.
      >
      > Self landing is exactly the same - maybe theoretical sligthly
      better
      > cause you wont open up the tip (so it goes up again), when
      deploying
      > the safety leash.
      >
      > I don't use the safety leash for self landing though - I fly the
      kite
      > down, hover it low over the ground, flies fast up and then fully
      nose
      > down - and immediately/or at the same time, tugs really hard in the
      > upper backline (when not using bridles that is).
      >
      > This way, I have no worries if the kite flies up again (especially
      in
      > high winds), cause I am still controlling the bar.
      >
      > The difference is, that your leashline is elastic - so the "tug"
      you
      > make won't have much effect, compared to one back line (and the
      front
      > lines are too far away from you, because of the trim strap).
      > So a backline will work good.
      >
      > I don't like the idea of letting go of the bar, especially not if
      > self landing in areas where your kite must not end up downwind (for
      > whatever reason - water, sharp things, parked car(s), boats, mud,
      > etc.), for the sake of the kite primarily !
      >
      > And today where you are permanently hooked to your frontlines, it
      is
      > not even possible to let go of the bar, without using the emergency
      > release (and I don't wanna do that when not needed, as I have to
      set
      > the system back on again every time i do it).
      > But this depends on your individual system of course.
      >
      > The point is - letting go without having control, is only useable
      in
      > places with LOTS of space around, where you land.
      > Many times we don't have that... We have a country with an
      enourmous
      > amount of water and shoreline, because of an extreme long coastline
      > (lots of bays and islands and so on), compared to our m2 country
      > size - I think one of, or the highest ratio ! But huge sand beaches
      > are normally on our west coast only -not on the rest of Denmark
      >
      > And apart from that - self landing is often only possible with
      bigger
      > kites, and/or where the wind is somewhat down on land, compared to
      > the water. If fully powered - forget it, and find some shelter to
      > throw the kite down behind.
      >
      > :-) Peter Frank
      >
      > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
      > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "skipfrommichigan" <svschott@m...> wrote:
      > > > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines -
      to
      > my
      > > > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
      > > >
      > > > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT
      > lines
      > > > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to
      running
      > this
      > > > setup? ...
      > > >...Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
      > provide
      > > > insight would be appreciated.
      > > >
      > > > Skip
      > >
      > > Skip,
      > >
      > > I haven't ridden LEIs, only Arcs, but I believe the following
      > applies
      > > to many modern LEIs which ride with low rear line loading like
      the
      > Arc.
      > > Both leash systems (one rear line or one front line) acheive the
      > > objective of flattening out the kite so it is not generating a
      lot
      > of
      > > lift - and both systems work more orless the same when used for
      > self
      > > landing, if deployed when the kite is on the ground BUT with a
      rear
      > > line leash ( and I am speaking from experience here ) if you
      deploy
      > > while the kite is flying (either because you are overpowered or
      in
      > > and emergency situation) then the kite will often spin - or
      > > "helicopter" on the leashed rear line - hovering 10 - 20 feet
      > above
      > > the water or ground. In really strong conditions this can
      continue
      > to
      > > generate quite a respectable pull so if you did it in say a
      strong
      > > offshore wind you could be forced to dump the entire kite to
      > prevent
      > > being dragged out to sea on your leash.
      > >
      > > As far as I know most older LEIs, especially those that fly with
      > > heavily loaded rear lines, do not suffer from this effect - but
      > > no matter what you are told about your leash system I always
      > advocate
      > > testing it other than self landing - by deploying with the kite
      > > flying - first in light wind, then in stronger wind but in a very
      > safe
      > > environment ... nothing but miles of sand / water downwind and a
      > reliable
      > > secondary release in case it helicopters and you can't stop it by
      > > running downwind.
      > >
      > > Steve T.
    • kiteboardingjapan
      ... Haven t heard of this way before. Sounds interesting. You tug hard on the back line to spin the kite right? I s this possible with a 16m kite, where you
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
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        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
        > I don't use the safety leash for self landing though - I fly the
        >kite down, hover it low over the ground, flies fast up and then
        >fully nose down - and immediately/or at the same time, tugs really
        >hard in the upper backline (when not using bridles that is).
        > This way, I have no worries if the kite flies up again (especially
        >in high winds), cause I am still controlling the bar.

        Haven't heard of this way before. Sounds interesting. You tug hard on
        the back line to spin the kite right? I s this possible with a 16m
        kite, where you would have to pull a lot of leader? Also, why fly the
        kite up again?

        Nick
      • kite012
        ... this ... front ... provide ... Hi Skip, I use an X2 12m - I m pretty much a beginner but I can let you know what I do. The leash attachment to the centre
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
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          --- In kitesurf@y..., "skipfrommichigan" <svschott@m...> wrote:
          > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines - to my
          > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
          >
          > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT lines
          > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to running
          this
          > setup? AirRush patented their system (wrist - through the bar). Don
          > M/X2/Naish (front line near the loop) patented his system - is it a
          > patent matter or is it really beneficial to run a leash off the
          front
          > lines near the chicken loop? How the heck do you self land a
          > center/front line leash set up? I usually ride solo - so I have to
          > self land. Kite down near the shorebreak - crash it - and run to the
          > kite with the wrist leash deployed. Can you do the same thing with a
          > front line setup?
          >
          > Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
          provide
          > insight would be appreciated.
          >
          > Skip

          Hi Skip,

          I use an X2 12m - I'm pretty much a beginner but I can
          let you know what I do. The leash attachment to the centre
          lines is a pretty good arrangement. The line attaches to
          your harness, so you have both hands free which I like.
          When the lines get twisted (after a jump plus spin), you
          can spin the bar to straighten the lines. However, the
          leash line will wrap around your chicken loop line. To free
          this, unhook, and rehook.

          The danger with the leash attachment to the front lines (and
          the Naish manual tells you this), is that if you get the leash
          attachment twisted or tangled up around where the leash connects
          to the front kite line, then when the bar is dropped the kite
          may not depower completely (or at all!. This is very real risk
          if you get sloppy with pre flight checks etc.

          In practice I find the system works
          very well. I've let go of the bar in 25 knots with the kite in
          the power zone - it depowers instantly, and spins a couple of
          times as it heads down. In terms of it being effective as a
          reride system, you can be lucky. Mostly I find the kite has
          death rolled once or twice when it depowers, so the front and back
          lines are twisted around each other (the kite still flies happily
          like this though - the handling is perhaps not as good). The
          problem area after a recovery on water is around the attachment
          between the front lines and the depower adjustment strap. This can
          get a bit tangled - you can't really gauge the extent till you
          hold the bar and the kite starts to fill and tension up the lines.

          I tend to fly solo - ie solo launches and landings. I mostly land
          the kite on shallow water - I fly it to the edge of the window, then
          turn it
          nose down for a gentle landing on the leading edge. Drop the bar, but
          keep the leash attachment connected to my harness. I work my way
          quickly along one line to grab the kite, and then wrap the lines onto
          the bar. If the kite powers up, I'm still attached via the safety
          leash.
          Avoiding tangles this way is pretty hard though. It seems to me
          that the only way to avoid line tangles in a solo landing
          is to take some risk and start winding the lines before the kite is
          secured.
          If the kite powers up early on in this procedure, this is very
          dangerous. Pretty easy to loose a finger this way!

          Flying with a friend who can catch your kite is a much better
          option of course.

          Steve
        • skipfrommichigan
          Thanks guys. I did not realize the helicopter effect you mentioned. I am lucky enough to launch and land with a large beach area. With the rear leash system in
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
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            Thanks guys.

            I did not realize the helicopter effect you mentioned. I am lucky
            enough to launch and land with a large beach area. With the rear
            leash system in high winds - the kite does helicopter after I land
            it.

            I thought the rear v front leash system changes might have been
            based on patent issues - not advances in launch / landing abilities
            but I was incorrect.

            Skip
          • terminalveloce
            Hey Dave, I was landing to the right with the leash on my left line for a while without mishap. A good tug and the kit spun around nose down, very neat, as
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
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              Hey Dave,
              I was landing to the right with the leash on my left line for a while
              without mishap. A good tug and the kit spun around nose down, very
              neat, as you say, until... Luckily light wind, but the kite did not
              depower properly due to lines getting snagged up at the kite (right
              side front line snagged on a left side pigtail, then the kite flipped
              backwards into the middle of the window and climbed back to 10-15m
              before propellering). It all happened very slowly due to the lack of
              wind, and I had room to run at the kite until it dropped, but it it'd
              been blowing it could've been untidy. The chances of having a
              similar mishap must be extremely remote, and maybe if it'd been windy
              it would've just pulled the snagged line clear immediately. It was
              probably lack of technique too!
              Pete


              --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
              > Skip,
              >
              > you can self land neatly on the beach with the front line leash.
              Give the safety
              > a good hard pull as the kite goes down, and it will spin to land
              leading edge
              > down.
              >
              > Works for me on 10m, 14m, and 20m X2's in any wind that is possible
              to
              > kitesurf in.
              >
              > Just make sure you land the kite to the opposite side that your
              leash is
              > connected so you can spin the kite around to land leading edge into
              the wind.
              >
              > DT
              >
              > > > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines -
              to my
              > > > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
              > > >
              > > > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT
              lines
              > > > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to
              running this
              > > > setup? ...
              > > >...Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
              provide
              > > > insight would be appreciated.
              > > >
              > > > Skip
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