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Re: leash?front v back self land?

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  • Peter Frank
    Yeah - Skip, Steve is right. The frontlines are most used, because it won t give a spin effect, and because it gives you the choice to use bridles or not (not
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
      Yeah - Skip, Steve is right.

      The frontlines are most used, because it won't give a spin effect,
      and because it gives you the choice to use bridles or not (not
      possible with a rear leashed kite), and because you have the
      leashline centered so it won't be as annoying if its a little slack.

      Self landing is exactly the same - maybe theoretical sligthly better
      cause you wont open up the tip (so it goes up again), when deploying
      the safety leash.

      I don't use the safety leash for self landing though - I fly the kite
      down, hover it low over the ground, flies fast up and then fully nose
      down - and immediately/or at the same time, tugs really hard in the
      upper backline (when not using bridles that is).

      This way, I have no worries if the kite flies up again (especially in
      high winds), cause I am still controlling the bar.

      The difference is, that your leashline is elastic - so the "tug" you
      make won't have much effect, compared to one back line (and the front
      lines are too far away from you, because of the trim strap).
      So a backline will work good.

      I don't like the idea of letting go of the bar, especially not if
      self landing in areas where your kite must not end up downwind (for
      whatever reason - water, sharp things, parked car(s), boats, mud,
      etc.), for the sake of the kite primarily !

      And today where you are permanently hooked to your frontlines, it is
      not even possible to let go of the bar, without using the emergency
      release (and I don't wanna do that when not needed, as I have to set
      the system back on again every time i do it).
      But this depends on your individual system of course.

      The point is - letting go without having control, is only useable in
      places with LOTS of space around, where you land.
      Many times we don't have that... We have a country with an enourmous
      amount of water and shoreline, because of an extreme long coastline
      (lots of bays and islands and so on), compared to our m2 country
      size - I think one of, or the highest ratio ! But huge sand beaches
      are normally on our west coast only -not on the rest of Denmark

      And apart from that - self landing is often only possible with bigger
      kites, and/or where the wind is somewhat down on land, compared to
      the water. If fully powered - forget it, and find some shelter to
      throw the kite down behind.

      :-) Peter Frank

      --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
      > --- In kitesurf@y..., "skipfrommichigan" <svschott@m...> wrote:
      > > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines - to
      my
      > > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
      > >
      > > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT
      lines
      > > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to running
      this
      > > setup? ...
      > >...Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
      provide
      > > insight would be appreciated.
      > >
      > > Skip
      >
      > Skip,
      >
      > I haven't ridden LEIs, only Arcs, but I believe the following
      applies
      > to many modern LEIs which ride with low rear line loading like the
      Arc.
      > Both leash systems (one rear line or one front line) acheive the
      > objective of flattening out the kite so it is not generating a lot
      of
      > lift - and both systems work more orless the same when used for
      self
      > landing, if deployed when the kite is on the ground BUT with a rear
      > line leash ( and I am speaking from experience here ) if you deploy
      > while the kite is flying (either because you are overpowered or in
      > and emergency situation) then the kite will often spin - or
      > "helicopter" on the leashed rear line - hovering 10 - 20 feet
      above
      > the water or ground. In really strong conditions this can continue
      to
      > generate quite a respectable pull so if you did it in say a strong
      > offshore wind you could be forced to dump the entire kite to
      prevent
      > being dragged out to sea on your leash.
      >
      > As far as I know most older LEIs, especially those that fly with
      > heavily loaded rear lines, do not suffer from this effect - but
      > no matter what you are told about your leash system I always
      advocate
      > testing it other than self landing - by deploying with the kite
      > flying - first in light wind, then in stronger wind but in a very
      safe
      > environment ... nothing but miles of sand / water downwind and a
      reliable
      > secondary release in case it helicopters and you can't stop it by
      > running downwind.
      >
      > Steve T.
    • Peter Frank
      Oops - forgot that one - with the rear line tug, you can land on whatever side you want ! This is a HUGE advantage - especially because it is the only possible
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
        Oops - forgot that one - with the rear line tug, you can land on
        whatever side you want !
        This is a HUGE advantage - especially because it is the only possible
        way, in very narrow places.

        :-) Peter

        -- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
        > Yeah - Skip, Steve is right.
        >
        > The frontlines are most used, because it won't give a spin effect,
        > and because it gives you the choice to use bridles or not (not
        > possible with a rear leashed kite), and because you have the
        > leashline centered so it won't be as annoying if its a little slack.
        >
        > Self landing is exactly the same - maybe theoretical sligthly
        better
        > cause you wont open up the tip (so it goes up again), when
        deploying
        > the safety leash.
        >
        > I don't use the safety leash for self landing though - I fly the
        kite
        > down, hover it low over the ground, flies fast up and then fully
        nose
        > down - and immediately/or at the same time, tugs really hard in the
        > upper backline (when not using bridles that is).
        >
        > This way, I have no worries if the kite flies up again (especially
        in
        > high winds), cause I am still controlling the bar.
        >
        > The difference is, that your leashline is elastic - so the "tug"
        you
        > make won't have much effect, compared to one back line (and the
        front
        > lines are too far away from you, because of the trim strap).
        > So a backline will work good.
        >
        > I don't like the idea of letting go of the bar, especially not if
        > self landing in areas where your kite must not end up downwind (for
        > whatever reason - water, sharp things, parked car(s), boats, mud,
        > etc.), for the sake of the kite primarily !
        >
        > And today where you are permanently hooked to your frontlines, it
        is
        > not even possible to let go of the bar, without using the emergency
        > release (and I don't wanna do that when not needed, as I have to
        set
        > the system back on again every time i do it).
        > But this depends on your individual system of course.
        >
        > The point is - letting go without having control, is only useable
        in
        > places with LOTS of space around, where you land.
        > Many times we don't have that... We have a country with an
        enourmous
        > amount of water and shoreline, because of an extreme long coastline
        > (lots of bays and islands and so on), compared to our m2 country
        > size - I think one of, or the highest ratio ! But huge sand beaches
        > are normally on our west coast only -not on the rest of Denmark
        >
        > And apart from that - self landing is often only possible with
        bigger
        > kites, and/or where the wind is somewhat down on land, compared to
        > the water. If fully powered - forget it, and find some shelter to
        > throw the kite down behind.
        >
        > :-) Peter Frank
        >
        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
        > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "skipfrommichigan" <svschott@m...> wrote:
        > > > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines -
        to
        > my
        > > > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
        > > >
        > > > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT
        > lines
        > > > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to
        running
        > this
        > > > setup? ...
        > > >...Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
        > provide
        > > > insight would be appreciated.
        > > >
        > > > Skip
        > >
        > > Skip,
        > >
        > > I haven't ridden LEIs, only Arcs, but I believe the following
        > applies
        > > to many modern LEIs which ride with low rear line loading like
        the
        > Arc.
        > > Both leash systems (one rear line or one front line) acheive the
        > > objective of flattening out the kite so it is not generating a
        lot
        > of
        > > lift - and both systems work more orless the same when used for
        > self
        > > landing, if deployed when the kite is on the ground BUT with a
        rear
        > > line leash ( and I am speaking from experience here ) if you
        deploy
        > > while the kite is flying (either because you are overpowered or
        in
        > > and emergency situation) then the kite will often spin - or
        > > "helicopter" on the leashed rear line - hovering 10 - 20 feet
        > above
        > > the water or ground. In really strong conditions this can
        continue
        > to
        > > generate quite a respectable pull so if you did it in say a
        strong
        > > offshore wind you could be forced to dump the entire kite to
        > prevent
        > > being dragged out to sea on your leash.
        > >
        > > As far as I know most older LEIs, especially those that fly with
        > > heavily loaded rear lines, do not suffer from this effect - but
        > > no matter what you are told about your leash system I always
        > advocate
        > > testing it other than self landing - by deploying with the kite
        > > flying - first in light wind, then in stronger wind but in a very
        > safe
        > > environment ... nothing but miles of sand / water downwind and a
        > reliable
        > > secondary release in case it helicopters and you can't stop it by
        > > running downwind.
        > >
        > > Steve T.
      • kiteboardingjapan
        ... Haven t heard of this way before. Sounds interesting. You tug hard on the back line to spin the kite right? I s this possible with a 16m kite, where you
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
          --- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
          > I don't use the safety leash for self landing though - I fly the
          >kite down, hover it low over the ground, flies fast up and then
          >fully nose down - and immediately/or at the same time, tugs really
          >hard in the upper backline (when not using bridles that is).
          > This way, I have no worries if the kite flies up again (especially
          >in high winds), cause I am still controlling the bar.

          Haven't heard of this way before. Sounds interesting. You tug hard on
          the back line to spin the kite right? I s this possible with a 16m
          kite, where you would have to pull a lot of leader? Also, why fly the
          kite up again?

          Nick
        • kite012
          ... this ... front ... provide ... Hi Skip, I use an X2 12m - I m pretty much a beginner but I can let you know what I do. The leash attachment to the centre
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
            --- In kitesurf@y..., "skipfrommichigan" <svschott@m...> wrote:
            > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines - to my
            > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
            >
            > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT lines
            > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to running
            this
            > setup? AirRush patented their system (wrist - through the bar). Don
            > M/X2/Naish (front line near the loop) patented his system - is it a
            > patent matter or is it really beneficial to run a leash off the
            front
            > lines near the chicken loop? How the heck do you self land a
            > center/front line leash set up? I usually ride solo - so I have to
            > self land. Kite down near the shorebreak - crash it - and run to the
            > kite with the wrist leash deployed. Can you do the same thing with a
            > front line setup?
            >
            > Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
            provide
            > insight would be appreciated.
            >
            > Skip

            Hi Skip,

            I use an X2 12m - I'm pretty much a beginner but I can
            let you know what I do. The leash attachment to the centre
            lines is a pretty good arrangement. The line attaches to
            your harness, so you have both hands free which I like.
            When the lines get twisted (after a jump plus spin), you
            can spin the bar to straighten the lines. However, the
            leash line will wrap around your chicken loop line. To free
            this, unhook, and rehook.

            The danger with the leash attachment to the front lines (and
            the Naish manual tells you this), is that if you get the leash
            attachment twisted or tangled up around where the leash connects
            to the front kite line, then when the bar is dropped the kite
            may not depower completely (or at all!. This is very real risk
            if you get sloppy with pre flight checks etc.

            In practice I find the system works
            very well. I've let go of the bar in 25 knots with the kite in
            the power zone - it depowers instantly, and spins a couple of
            times as it heads down. In terms of it being effective as a
            reride system, you can be lucky. Mostly I find the kite has
            death rolled once or twice when it depowers, so the front and back
            lines are twisted around each other (the kite still flies happily
            like this though - the handling is perhaps not as good). The
            problem area after a recovery on water is around the attachment
            between the front lines and the depower adjustment strap. This can
            get a bit tangled - you can't really gauge the extent till you
            hold the bar and the kite starts to fill and tension up the lines.

            I tend to fly solo - ie solo launches and landings. I mostly land
            the kite on shallow water - I fly it to the edge of the window, then
            turn it
            nose down for a gentle landing on the leading edge. Drop the bar, but
            keep the leash attachment connected to my harness. I work my way
            quickly along one line to grab the kite, and then wrap the lines onto
            the bar. If the kite powers up, I'm still attached via the safety
            leash.
            Avoiding tangles this way is pretty hard though. It seems to me
            that the only way to avoid line tangles in a solo landing
            is to take some risk and start winding the lines before the kite is
            secured.
            If the kite powers up early on in this procedure, this is very
            dangerous. Pretty easy to loose a finger this way!

            Flying with a friend who can catch your kite is a much better
            option of course.

            Steve
          • skipfrommichigan
            Thanks guys. I did not realize the helicopter effect you mentioned. I am lucky enough to launch and land with a large beach area. With the rear leash system in
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
              Thanks guys.

              I did not realize the helicopter effect you mentioned. I am lucky
              enough to launch and land with a large beach area. With the rear
              leash system in high winds - the kite does helicopter after I land
              it.

              I thought the rear v front leash system changes might have been
              based on patent issues - not advances in launch / landing abilities
              but I was incorrect.

              Skip
            • terminalveloce
              Hey Dave, I was landing to the right with the leash on my left line for a while without mishap. A good tug and the kit spun around nose down, very neat, as
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
                Hey Dave,
                I was landing to the right with the leash on my left line for a while
                without mishap. A good tug and the kit spun around nose down, very
                neat, as you say, until... Luckily light wind, but the kite did not
                depower properly due to lines getting snagged up at the kite (right
                side front line snagged on a left side pigtail, then the kite flipped
                backwards into the middle of the window and climbed back to 10-15m
                before propellering). It all happened very slowly due to the lack of
                wind, and I had room to run at the kite until it dropped, but it it'd
                been blowing it could've been untidy. The chances of having a
                similar mishap must be extremely remote, and maybe if it'd been windy
                it would've just pulled the snagged line clear immediately. It was
                probably lack of technique too!
                Pete


                --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                > Skip,
                >
                > you can self land neatly on the beach with the front line leash.
                Give the safety
                > a good hard pull as the kite goes down, and it will spin to land
                leading edge
                > down.
                >
                > Works for me on 10m, 14m, and 20m X2's in any wind that is possible
                to
                > kitesurf in.
                >
                > Just make sure you land the kite to the opposite side that your
                leash is
                > connected so you can spin the kite around to land leading edge into
                the wind.
                >
                > DT
                >
                > > > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines -
                to my
                > > > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
                > > >
                > > > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT
                lines
                > > > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to
                running this
                > > > setup? ...
                > > >...Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
                provide
                > > > insight would be appreciated.
                > > >
                > > > Skip
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