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Re: leash?front v back self land?

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  • vide72au
    Skip, you can self land neatly on the beach with the front line leash. Give the safety a good hard pull as the kite goes down, and it will spin to land leading
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
      Skip,

      you can self land neatly on the beach with the front line leash. Give the safety
      a good hard pull as the kite goes down, and it will spin to land leading edge
      down.

      Works for me on 10m, 14m, and 20m X2's in any wind that is possible to
      kitesurf in.

      Just make sure you land the kite to the opposite side that your leash is
      connected so you can spin the kite around to land leading edge into the wind.

      DT

      > > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines - to my
      > > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
      > >
      > > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT lines
      > > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to running this
      > > setup? ...
      > >...Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can provide
      > > insight would be appreciated.
      > >
      > > Skip
    • Peter Frank
      Yeah - Skip, Steve is right. The frontlines are most used, because it won t give a spin effect, and because it gives you the choice to use bridles or not (not
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
        Yeah - Skip, Steve is right.

        The frontlines are most used, because it won't give a spin effect,
        and because it gives you the choice to use bridles or not (not
        possible with a rear leashed kite), and because you have the
        leashline centered so it won't be as annoying if its a little slack.

        Self landing is exactly the same - maybe theoretical sligthly better
        cause you wont open up the tip (so it goes up again), when deploying
        the safety leash.

        I don't use the safety leash for self landing though - I fly the kite
        down, hover it low over the ground, flies fast up and then fully nose
        down - and immediately/or at the same time, tugs really hard in the
        upper backline (when not using bridles that is).

        This way, I have no worries if the kite flies up again (especially in
        high winds), cause I am still controlling the bar.

        The difference is, that your leashline is elastic - so the "tug" you
        make won't have much effect, compared to one back line (and the front
        lines are too far away from you, because of the trim strap).
        So a backline will work good.

        I don't like the idea of letting go of the bar, especially not if
        self landing in areas where your kite must not end up downwind (for
        whatever reason - water, sharp things, parked car(s), boats, mud,
        etc.), for the sake of the kite primarily !

        And today where you are permanently hooked to your frontlines, it is
        not even possible to let go of the bar, without using the emergency
        release (and I don't wanna do that when not needed, as I have to set
        the system back on again every time i do it).
        But this depends on your individual system of course.

        The point is - letting go without having control, is only useable in
        places with LOTS of space around, where you land.
        Many times we don't have that... We have a country with an enourmous
        amount of water and shoreline, because of an extreme long coastline
        (lots of bays and islands and so on), compared to our m2 country
        size - I think one of, or the highest ratio ! But huge sand beaches
        are normally on our west coast only -not on the rest of Denmark

        And apart from that - self landing is often only possible with bigger
        kites, and/or where the wind is somewhat down on land, compared to
        the water. If fully powered - forget it, and find some shelter to
        throw the kite down behind.

        :-) Peter Frank

        --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "skipfrommichigan" <svschott@m...> wrote:
        > > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines - to
        my
        > > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
        > >
        > > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT
        lines
        > > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to running
        this
        > > setup? ...
        > >...Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
        provide
        > > insight would be appreciated.
        > >
        > > Skip
        >
        > Skip,
        >
        > I haven't ridden LEIs, only Arcs, but I believe the following
        applies
        > to many modern LEIs which ride with low rear line loading like the
        Arc.
        > Both leash systems (one rear line or one front line) acheive the
        > objective of flattening out the kite so it is not generating a lot
        of
        > lift - and both systems work more orless the same when used for
        self
        > landing, if deployed when the kite is on the ground BUT with a rear
        > line leash ( and I am speaking from experience here ) if you deploy
        > while the kite is flying (either because you are overpowered or in
        > and emergency situation) then the kite will often spin - or
        > "helicopter" on the leashed rear line - hovering 10 - 20 feet
        above
        > the water or ground. In really strong conditions this can continue
        to
        > generate quite a respectable pull so if you did it in say a strong
        > offshore wind you could be forced to dump the entire kite to
        prevent
        > being dragged out to sea on your leash.
        >
        > As far as I know most older LEIs, especially those that fly with
        > heavily loaded rear lines, do not suffer from this effect - but
        > no matter what you are told about your leash system I always
        advocate
        > testing it other than self landing - by deploying with the kite
        > flying - first in light wind, then in stronger wind but in a very
        safe
        > environment ... nothing but miles of sand / water downwind and a
        reliable
        > secondary release in case it helicopters and you can't stop it by
        > running downwind.
        >
        > Steve T.
      • Peter Frank
        Oops - forgot that one - with the rear line tug, you can land on whatever side you want ! This is a HUGE advantage - especially because it is the only possible
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
          Oops - forgot that one - with the rear line tug, you can land on
          whatever side you want !
          This is a HUGE advantage - especially because it is the only possible
          way, in very narrow places.

          :-) Peter

          -- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
          > Yeah - Skip, Steve is right.
          >
          > The frontlines are most used, because it won't give a spin effect,
          > and because it gives you the choice to use bridles or not (not
          > possible with a rear leashed kite), and because you have the
          > leashline centered so it won't be as annoying if its a little slack.
          >
          > Self landing is exactly the same - maybe theoretical sligthly
          better
          > cause you wont open up the tip (so it goes up again), when
          deploying
          > the safety leash.
          >
          > I don't use the safety leash for self landing though - I fly the
          kite
          > down, hover it low over the ground, flies fast up and then fully
          nose
          > down - and immediately/or at the same time, tugs really hard in the
          > upper backline (when not using bridles that is).
          >
          > This way, I have no worries if the kite flies up again (especially
          in
          > high winds), cause I am still controlling the bar.
          >
          > The difference is, that your leashline is elastic - so the "tug"
          you
          > make won't have much effect, compared to one back line (and the
          front
          > lines are too far away from you, because of the trim strap).
          > So a backline will work good.
          >
          > I don't like the idea of letting go of the bar, especially not if
          > self landing in areas where your kite must not end up downwind (for
          > whatever reason - water, sharp things, parked car(s), boats, mud,
          > etc.), for the sake of the kite primarily !
          >
          > And today where you are permanently hooked to your frontlines, it
          is
          > not even possible to let go of the bar, without using the emergency
          > release (and I don't wanna do that when not needed, as I have to
          set
          > the system back on again every time i do it).
          > But this depends on your individual system of course.
          >
          > The point is - letting go without having control, is only useable
          in
          > places with LOTS of space around, where you land.
          > Many times we don't have that... We have a country with an
          enourmous
          > amount of water and shoreline, because of an extreme long coastline
          > (lots of bays and islands and so on), compared to our m2 country
          > size - I think one of, or the highest ratio ! But huge sand beaches
          > are normally on our west coast only -not on the rest of Denmark
          >
          > And apart from that - self landing is often only possible with
          bigger
          > kites, and/or where the wind is somewhat down on land, compared to
          > the water. If fully powered - forget it, and find some shelter to
          > throw the kite down behind.
          >
          > :-) Peter Frank
          >
          > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
          > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "skipfrommichigan" <svschott@m...> wrote:
          > > > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines -
          to
          > my
          > > > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
          > > >
          > > > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT
          > lines
          > > > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to
          running
          > this
          > > > setup? ...
          > > >...Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
          > provide
          > > > insight would be appreciated.
          > > >
          > > > Skip
          > >
          > > Skip,
          > >
          > > I haven't ridden LEIs, only Arcs, but I believe the following
          > applies
          > > to many modern LEIs which ride with low rear line loading like
          the
          > Arc.
          > > Both leash systems (one rear line or one front line) acheive the
          > > objective of flattening out the kite so it is not generating a
          lot
          > of
          > > lift - and both systems work more orless the same when used for
          > self
          > > landing, if deployed when the kite is on the ground BUT with a
          rear
          > > line leash ( and I am speaking from experience here ) if you
          deploy
          > > while the kite is flying (either because you are overpowered or
          in
          > > and emergency situation) then the kite will often spin - or
          > > "helicopter" on the leashed rear line - hovering 10 - 20 feet
          > above
          > > the water or ground. In really strong conditions this can
          continue
          > to
          > > generate quite a respectable pull so if you did it in say a
          strong
          > > offshore wind you could be forced to dump the entire kite to
          > prevent
          > > being dragged out to sea on your leash.
          > >
          > > As far as I know most older LEIs, especially those that fly with
          > > heavily loaded rear lines, do not suffer from this effect - but
          > > no matter what you are told about your leash system I always
          > advocate
          > > testing it other than self landing - by deploying with the kite
          > > flying - first in light wind, then in stronger wind but in a very
          > safe
          > > environment ... nothing but miles of sand / water downwind and a
          > reliable
          > > secondary release in case it helicopters and you can't stop it by
          > > running downwind.
          > >
          > > Steve T.
        • kiteboardingjapan
          ... Haven t heard of this way before. Sounds interesting. You tug hard on the back line to spin the kite right? I s this possible with a 16m kite, where you
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
            --- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
            > I don't use the safety leash for self landing though - I fly the
            >kite down, hover it low over the ground, flies fast up and then
            >fully nose down - and immediately/or at the same time, tugs really
            >hard in the upper backline (when not using bridles that is).
            > This way, I have no worries if the kite flies up again (especially
            >in high winds), cause I am still controlling the bar.

            Haven't heard of this way before. Sounds interesting. You tug hard on
            the back line to spin the kite right? I s this possible with a 16m
            kite, where you would have to pull a lot of leader? Also, why fly the
            kite up again?

            Nick
          • kite012
            ... this ... front ... provide ... Hi Skip, I use an X2 12m - I m pretty much a beginner but I can let you know what I do. The leash attachment to the centre
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
              --- In kitesurf@y..., "skipfrommichigan" <svschott@m...> wrote:
              > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines - to my
              > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
              >
              > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT lines
              > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to running
              this
              > setup? AirRush patented their system (wrist - through the bar). Don
              > M/X2/Naish (front line near the loop) patented his system - is it a
              > patent matter or is it really beneficial to run a leash off the
              front
              > lines near the chicken loop? How the heck do you self land a
              > center/front line leash set up? I usually ride solo - so I have to
              > self land. Kite down near the shorebreak - crash it - and run to the
              > kite with the wrist leash deployed. Can you do the same thing with a
              > front line setup?
              >
              > Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
              provide
              > insight would be appreciated.
              >
              > Skip

              Hi Skip,

              I use an X2 12m - I'm pretty much a beginner but I can
              let you know what I do. The leash attachment to the centre
              lines is a pretty good arrangement. The line attaches to
              your harness, so you have both hands free which I like.
              When the lines get twisted (after a jump plus spin), you
              can spin the bar to straighten the lines. However, the
              leash line will wrap around your chicken loop line. To free
              this, unhook, and rehook.

              The danger with the leash attachment to the front lines (and
              the Naish manual tells you this), is that if you get the leash
              attachment twisted or tangled up around where the leash connects
              to the front kite line, then when the bar is dropped the kite
              may not depower completely (or at all!. This is very real risk
              if you get sloppy with pre flight checks etc.

              In practice I find the system works
              very well. I've let go of the bar in 25 knots with the kite in
              the power zone - it depowers instantly, and spins a couple of
              times as it heads down. In terms of it being effective as a
              reride system, you can be lucky. Mostly I find the kite has
              death rolled once or twice when it depowers, so the front and back
              lines are twisted around each other (the kite still flies happily
              like this though - the handling is perhaps not as good). The
              problem area after a recovery on water is around the attachment
              between the front lines and the depower adjustment strap. This can
              get a bit tangled - you can't really gauge the extent till you
              hold the bar and the kite starts to fill and tension up the lines.

              I tend to fly solo - ie solo launches and landings. I mostly land
              the kite on shallow water - I fly it to the edge of the window, then
              turn it
              nose down for a gentle landing on the leading edge. Drop the bar, but
              keep the leash attachment connected to my harness. I work my way
              quickly along one line to grab the kite, and then wrap the lines onto
              the bar. If the kite powers up, I'm still attached via the safety
              leash.
              Avoiding tangles this way is pretty hard though. It seems to me
              that the only way to avoid line tangles in a solo landing
              is to take some risk and start winding the lines before the kite is
              secured.
              If the kite powers up early on in this procedure, this is very
              dangerous. Pretty easy to loose a finger this way!

              Flying with a friend who can catch your kite is a much better
              option of course.

              Steve
            • skipfrommichigan
              Thanks guys. I did not realize the helicopter effect you mentioned. I am lucky enough to launch and land with a large beach area. With the rear leash system in
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
                Thanks guys.

                I did not realize the helicopter effect you mentioned. I am lucky
                enough to launch and land with a large beach area. With the rear
                leash system in high winds - the kite does helicopter after I land
                it.

                I thought the rear v front leash system changes might have been
                based on patent issues - not advances in launch / landing abilities
                but I was incorrect.

                Skip
              • terminalveloce
                Hey Dave, I was landing to the right with the leash on my left line for a while without mishap. A good tug and the kit spun around nose down, very neat, as
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
                  Hey Dave,
                  I was landing to the right with the leash on my left line for a while
                  without mishap. A good tug and the kit spun around nose down, very
                  neat, as you say, until... Luckily light wind, but the kite did not
                  depower properly due to lines getting snagged up at the kite (right
                  side front line snagged on a left side pigtail, then the kite flipped
                  backwards into the middle of the window and climbed back to 10-15m
                  before propellering). It all happened very slowly due to the lack of
                  wind, and I had room to run at the kite until it dropped, but it it'd
                  been blowing it could've been untidy. The chances of having a
                  similar mishap must be extremely remote, and maybe if it'd been windy
                  it would've just pulled the snagged line clear immediately. It was
                  probably lack of technique too!
                  Pete


                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                  > Skip,
                  >
                  > you can self land neatly on the beach with the front line leash.
                  Give the safety
                  > a good hard pull as the kite goes down, and it will spin to land
                  leading edge
                  > down.
                  >
                  > Works for me on 10m, 14m, and 20m X2's in any wind that is possible
                  to
                  > kitesurf in.
                  >
                  > Just make sure you land the kite to the opposite side that your
                  leash is
                  > connected so you can spin the kite around to land leading edge into
                  the wind.
                  >
                  > DT
                  >
                  > > > I use a bar that has the leash attached to the outside lines -
                  to my
                  > > > wrist. I do not like the idea of shackle riding - not for me.
                  > > >
                  > > > Some manufacturers have gone to leashes attached to the FRONT
                  lines
                  > > > running near the chicken loop. What is the advantages to
                  running this
                  > > > setup? ...
                  > > >...Anyone that has used the frontline and rearline setup and can
                  provide
                  > > > insight would be appreciated.
                  > > >
                  > > > Skip
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