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Re: [ksurf]Leash - Safety system - autoreturn after doing a back/frontloop

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  • Peter Frank
    ... the ... The plastic tube on the Wipika are only on some models. You can obtain and use the C-bar with or without the tube. Many prefer the depower without
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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      > I'm planning to build it using the 2002 Wipika pin release in
      > combination with a rotating bar http://www.flow-
      > motion.de/shop/images/100018.jpg
      >
      > I tested it yesterday and so far so good. I guess the best test is
      > while really kiteboarding and the depower is under full load.
      >
      > Regarding wear of the depowerloop: Wipika has a plastic tube over
      the
      > depowerloop so I guess wear is no issue.
      > Keep more useful comments coming!

      The plastic tube on the Wipika are only on some models.
      You can obtain and use the C-bar with or without the tube.

      Many prefer the depower without tube, as you can sheet in and out way
      faster and easier.
      The locking systems is not used by most pro's - as free sheeting, and
      an extra trapeze loop for the hook is the most common (I prefer that).

      And on the Apex-0 Carbon bar, you dont have tube either.

      :-) Peter
    • hernanhome
      Peter & Frank: I m trying a new system that seems to solve the spinning leash problem. As you know, the main issue is the shackel swivel not rotating under
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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        Peter & Frank:

        I m trying a new system that seems to solve the spinning leash
        problem.
        As you know, the main issue is the shackel swivel not rotating
        under load. If it doesn t rotate, the leash will tangle.
        I find a simple and cheap solution to this:
        The bungie bar (to give it a name).
        I was flying airblast with bridles on and I want to take the bridles
        of the 8,4. I dont use fixed loop on my bars, so I was thinking on
        how to reduce arm fatige as I m used to the light feel of he
        bridled kite. I decide to put a bungie loop (end to end) and attach
        it to the depower ring (above the release). I get a very confortable
        assistance, a more free feeling than using a fixed loop (the bar
        steers normaly), the kite flies more stable and the best thing: the
        depower rope rotates as a unit with the bar when you unspin the
        bar. The turning forces induced by the bungie are enough to
        rotate the shackle swivel, So no more leash tangles!!
        IT WORKS, you must try it!!

        Hernan
      • hernanhome
        Sorry, I forgot the link with the pictures: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/LeashSystems/Bung ie%20Bar%20%26%20spinning%20leash/ ... bridles ...
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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          Sorry, I forgot the link with the pictures:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/LeashSystems/Bung
          ie%20Bar%20%26%20spinning%20leash/


          --- In kitesurf@y..., "hernanhome" <hernanhome@i...> wrote:
          > Peter & Frank:
          >
          > I m trying a new system that seems to solve the spinning leash
          > problem.
          > As you know, the main issue is the shackel swivel not rotating
          > under load. If it doesn t rotate, the leash will tangle.
          > I find a simple and cheap solution to this:
          > The bungie bar (to give it a name).
          > I was flying airblast with bridles on and I want to take the
          bridles
          > of the 8,4. I dont use fixed loop on my bars, so I was thinking
          on
          > how to reduce arm fatige as I m used to the light feel of he
          > bridled kite. I decide to put a bungie loop (end to end) and
          attach
          > it to the depower ring (above the release). I get a very
          confortable
          > assistance, a more free feeling than using a fixed loop (the bar
          > steers normaly), the kite flies more stable and the best thing:
          the
          > depower rope rotates as a unit with the bar when you unspin
          the
          > bar. The turning forces induced by the bungie are enough to
          > rotate the shackle swivel, So no more leash tangles!!
          > IT WORKS, you must try it!!
          >
          > Hernan
        • dutchkitesurfer
          ... is ... over ... way ... and ... that). ... I disabled the locking meachanism immedeatly on both my Wipika C- bars. All Wipika bars here in the Netherlands
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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            --- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
            > > I'm planning to build it using the 2002 Wipika pin release in
            > > combination with a rotating bar http://www.flow-
            > > motion.de/shop/images/100018.jpg
            > >
            > > I tested it yesterday and so far so good. I guess the best test
            is
            > > while really kiteboarding and the depower is under full load.
            > >
            > > Regarding wear of the depowerloop: Wipika has a plastic tube
            over
            > the
            > > depowerloop so I guess wear is no issue.
            > > Keep more useful comments coming!
            >
            > The plastic tube on the Wipika are only on some models.
            > You can obtain and use the C-bar with or without the tube.
            >
            > Many prefer the depower without tube, as you can sheet in and out
            way
            > faster and easier.
            > The locking systems is not used by most pro's - as free sheeting,
            and
            > an extra trapeze loop for the hook is the most common (I prefer
            that).
            >
            > And on the Apex-0 Carbon bar, you dont have tube either.
            >
            > :-) Peter

            I disabled the locking meachanism immedeatly on both my Wipika C-
            bars. All Wipika bars here in the Netherlands come with platictube
            around the depowerloop.

            I will post my comments after I've used it while kiting. Forecast
            says we will have wind here on friday.
          • kiteboard2000
            ... load ... system ... There are several systems which spin quite well, because they use a separate swivel for the leash (which has very little load).
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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              --- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:

              > Most systems won't work well under load - and you are under full
              load
              > all the time...
              > I ALWAYS use a safety leash, and until a good useable unspin
              system
              > appears, I'll just jump the other way around to unspin. This is
              > really good practice anyway.

              There are several systems which spin quite well, because they use a
              separate swivel for the leash (which has very little load). There's
              one pictured at
              http://scka.org/images2/spinleash2.jpg
              It's not all that clear, but just below the shackle there's a
              stopper ball, & then a plain stainless O-ring, to which the leash
              attaches. Very cheap, simple, & effective. It's shown with a
              center-line sliding-ring leash, but should work equally well on a
              rear line, &/or with an old style system.

              Mel
            • Peter Frank
              ... Thats a brilliant idea Mel, with a no-load leash ring. And if the leash does not untwist totally by itself, it can be done easily with one hand (unlike
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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                > http://scka.org/images2/spinleash2.jpg

                Thats a brilliant idea Mel, with a "no-load" leash ring.

                And if the leash does not untwist totally by itself, it can be done
                easily with one hand (unlike the shackle which can be tough to spin
                under heavy load).

                Will think about how to use it in different systems.

                One major problem in many complete systems, is the distance the
                depower is from the hook.
                It should be as near as possible - so you can power the kite fully up
                (or even stall it on purpose).
                AND - some has a riding style with the bar very close to the harness.

                Anyway - the bar should be able to be pulled almost down to the
                harness hook.
                This is not possible in many of the (home)solutions made today.

                The goal should be to obtain the max. possible power/depower
                distance, meaning bar able to come close to the hook, and able to
                slide away to fully extended arms (or more...)

                :-) Peter

                --- In kitesurf@y..., "kiteboard2000" <kiteboarder@p...> wrote:
                > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
                >
                > > Most systems won't work well under load - and you are under full
                > load
                > > all the time...
                > > I ALWAYS use a safety leash, and until a good useable unspin
                > system
                > > appears, I'll just jump the other way around to unspin. This is
                > > really good practice anyway.
                >
                > There are several systems which spin quite well, because they use a
                > separate swivel for the leash (which has very little load).
                There's
                > one pictured at
                > http://scka.org/images2/spinleash2.jpg
                > It's not all that clear, but just below the shackle there's a
                > stopper ball, & then a plain stainless O-ring, to which the leash
                > attaches. Very cheap, simple, & effective. It's shown with a
                > center-line sliding-ring leash, but should work equally well on a
                > rear line, &/or with an old style system.
                >
                > Mel
              • Anthony
                ... Peter, I used to think the same thing. However there are two issues. 1. The maximum bar travel should be no more then the distance between the front and
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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                  >
                  > The goal should be to obtain the max. possible power/depower
                  > distance, meaning bar able to come close to the hook, and able to
                  > slide away to fully extended arms (or more...)
                  >


                  Peter,

                  I used to think the same thing. However there are two issues.

                  1. The maximum bar travel should be no more then the distance between
                  the front and back pigtails on the kite. This is the theroetical
                  maximum depower situation which is still impossible since it would
                  mean your kite has swivelled through a full 90 degrees.

                  2. Too much depower can be a bad thing when you start to do one
                  handed and no handed tricks (thats hands on the bar). If you are in
                  teh air and let go of the bar and it is allowed to travell to full
                  depower, you tend to fall out the air quiet quickly.

                  What I do now is not to have such a full depower travel. If the wind
                  is that strong that it need to depower more then use the trim strap.

                  Cheers

                  Anthony
                • Peter Frank
                  I don t agree fully Anthony. 1. All new fast kites fly more on the front lines, than the backlines. This means, you can let go fully of the bar (even cut your
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 2, 2002
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                    I don't agree fully Anthony.

                    1. All new fast kites fly more on the front lines, than the backlines.
                    This means, you can let go fully of the bar (even cut your backlines
                    away for a short time... It'll still fly).
                    When you depower in high winds - you need to have the rear lines more
                    or less slack. The wind resistance in the lines, creates a lot of
                    tension on the rear points, which is more than adequate to steer the
                    kite.
                    So the depower distance could be much bigger than the expected
                    theoretical distance ! (And often is...)

                    2. One handed tricks (rear hand off bar) - no problem, you can feel
                    and control the power with one hand on the bar.
                    No-handed tricks ? That would be a problem - but always use the fixed
                    loop for this (thats why its there...), and you will never have
                    problems !
                    And if you are doing one handed with your rear hand on the bar - use
                    the fixed loop again.


                    Another problem with too short depower distance (I am talking without
                    bridles, because this is the most used), is in the lulls.
                    It is perfect like you say, to use the trimstrap to adjust to the
                    wind, yep.
                    But if the wind suddenly drops to near nothing, you should be able to
                    just find the sweet spot again for these few moments it might last,
                    instead of using the trimstrap.
                    And vice versa in the gusts of course - it is sweet just to have full
                    power / depower control immediately.

                    These are just my preferences - like you say, it might be very
                    individual...

                    :-) Peter Frank

                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "Anthony" <captain1@i...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The goal should be to obtain the max. possible power/depower
                    > > distance, meaning bar able to come close to the hook, and able to
                    > > slide away to fully extended arms (or more...)
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > Peter,
                    >
                    > I used to think the same thing. However there are two issues.
                    >
                    > 1. The maximum bar travel should be no more then the distance
                    between
                    > the front and back pigtails on the kite. This is the theroetical
                    > maximum depower situation which is still impossible since it would
                    > mean your kite has swivelled through a full 90 degrees.
                    >
                    > 2. Too much depower can be a bad thing when you start to do one
                    > handed and no handed tricks (thats hands on the bar). If you are in
                    > teh air and let go of the bar and it is allowed to travell to full
                    > depower, you tend to fall out the air quiet quickly.
                    >
                    > What I do now is not to have such a full depower travel. If the
                    wind
                    > is that strong that it need to depower more then use the trim strap.
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    >
                    > Anthony
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