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Re: [ksurf]Leash - Safety system - autoreturn after doing a back/frontloop

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  • Peter Frank
    ... In my ... Could nt agree more Rainer ! Some are using tube over the depower line AND the safety leash line, so they will be stiffer and (un)spin more easy,
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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      > > http://www.kitesurfing-kiel.de/safety/wichard/wichard.avi
      >
      > Like many before this system relies on the shackle spinning easily.
      In my
      > experience they don't do that when you are actually flying a kite,
      > loading up the shackle.

      Could'nt agree more Rainer !

      Some are using tube over the depower line AND the safety leash line,
      so they will be stiffer and (un)spin more easy, with above systems.

      But it is still a quite "clumsy" way of doing it, and not very
      usefull IMO.

      Most systems won't work well under load - and you are under full load
      all the time.

      Even the normal shackles can be almost impossible to release, when
      you are under +100kg load when being dragged...

      The Wichard shackle seems very okay in this respect, but most other
      shackles that you buy in the boat shops - keep away from those !
      Or at least hang yourself up in your trapeze in a tree or something,
      and see how heavy your release is under normal weight (don't go too
      high in the tree - he heee).

      Then you will definitively not use those again, I'm pretty sure...

      And NEVER use the line/rope directly in a normal shackle - always use
      a ring !
      Otherwise it might not release at all.

      I use the "old" standard Wipika system with the pin release.
      You need a little force, because the velcro and rubber band is quite
      tight - BUT - the force is the very same, whether you are under load
      or not !!! Perfect.
      And another advantage (which I really worship):
      You can not accidentally release it, because it has a longer "release
      distance". So no reason to fear being dropped when hanging upside
      down in deadmans in shallower water (your worst nightmare).

      Apart from that - you can change your depower line at any time.
      Just make a knot on the end of a std. 5-6 or 7 mm rope, so it forms a
      little loop. This loop will fit perfectly in the pin release.
      You don't need the "sewn" webbing which is delivered std.

      With most shackles - the release distance is so short, that they can
      be halfway released, and only need a little push to open.
      OR - if they are locked fully - you can not open it because it need
      too much force.

      With the pin release system, I am almost 100% sure that it will not
      open by accident, and it will open when I need it to.

      Just my experiences.

      I ALWAYS use a safety leash, and until a good useable unspin system
      appears, I'll just jump the other way around to unspin. This is
      really good practice anyway. A little hard with 4 twists - but
      possible. Just do one or two rotations at a time to unspin, while
      your kite is a bit "slow" because of the twists.
      Easy, and good practice.
      ------------------------

      How you connect your pin release system to your trapeze bar, is
      another topic (the hook must remain free for the trapeze line).
      I've found a really good way (fast/simple/cheap), which I am
      using/testing these weeks.

      :-) Peter Frank

      --- In kitesurf@y..., Rainer Leuschke <rainer@u...> wrote:
      >
      > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, dutchkitesurfer wrote:
      > > http://www.kitesurfing-kiel.de/safety/wichard/wichard.avi
      >
      > Like many before this system relies on the shackle spinning easily.
      In my
      > experience they don't do that when you are actually flying a kite,
      > loading up the shackle. Notice that in the video the lines are all
      pretty
      > slack. Also, imagine doing the same thing with 4+ twists. Could be a
      > serious problem. I don't think you'd ever want to wrap your leash
      around
      > another line. It could easily result in a situation where deploying
      the
      > leash does not result in the kite depowering. R!
    • dutchkitesurfer
      ... easily. ... line, ... load ... something, ... use ... quite ... load ... longer release ... a ... can ... easily. ... all ... be a ... deploying ... I m
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
        > > > http://www.kitesurfing-kiel.de/safety/wichard/wichard.avi
        > >
        > > Like many before this system relies on the shackle spinning
        easily.
        > In my
        > > experience they don't do that when you are actually flying a kite,
        > > loading up the shackle.
        >
        > Could'nt agree more Rainer !
        >
        > Some are using tube over the depower line AND the safety leash
        line,
        > so they will be stiffer and (un)spin more easy, with above systems.
        >
        > But it is still a quite "clumsy" way of doing it, and not very
        > usefull IMO.
        >
        > Most systems won't work well under load - and you are under full
        load
        > all the time.
        >
        > Even the normal shackles can be almost impossible to release, when
        > you are under +100kg load when being dragged...
        >
        > The Wichard shackle seems very okay in this respect, but most other
        > shackles that you buy in the boat shops - keep away from those !
        > Or at least hang yourself up in your trapeze in a tree or
        something,
        > and see how heavy your release is under normal weight (don't go too
        > high in the tree - he heee).
        >
        > Then you will definitively not use those again, I'm pretty sure...
        >
        > And NEVER use the line/rope directly in a normal shackle - always
        use
        > a ring !
        > Otherwise it might not release at all.
        >
        > I use the "old" standard Wipika system with the pin release.
        > You need a little force, because the velcro and rubber band is
        quite
        > tight - BUT - the force is the very same, whether you are under
        load
        > or not !!! Perfect.
        > And another advantage (which I really worship):
        > You can not accidentally release it, because it has a
        longer "release
        > distance". So no reason to fear being dropped when hanging upside
        > down in deadmans in shallower water (your worst nightmare).
        >
        > Apart from that - you can change your depower line at any time.
        > Just make a knot on the end of a std. 5-6 or 7 mm rope, so it forms
        a
        > little loop. This loop will fit perfectly in the pin release.
        > You don't need the "sewn" webbing which is delivered std.
        >
        > With most shackles - the release distance is so short, that they
        can
        > be halfway released, and only need a little push to open.
        > OR - if they are locked fully - you can not open it because it need
        > too much force.
        >
        > With the pin release system, I am almost 100% sure that it will not
        > open by accident, and it will open when I need it to.
        >
        > Just my experiences.
        >
        > I ALWAYS use a safety leash, and until a good useable unspin system
        > appears, I'll just jump the other way around to unspin. This is
        > really good practice anyway. A little hard with 4 twists - but
        > possible. Just do one or two rotations at a time to unspin, while
        > your kite is a bit "slow" because of the twists.
        > Easy, and good practice.
        > ------------------------
        >
        > How you connect your pin release system to your trapeze bar, is
        > another topic (the hook must remain free for the trapeze line).
        > I've found a really good way (fast/simple/cheap), which I am
        > using/testing these weeks.
        >
        > :-) Peter Frank
        >
        > --- In kitesurf@y..., Rainer Leuschke <rainer@u...> wrote:
        > >
        > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, dutchkitesurfer wrote:
        > > > http://www.kitesurfing-kiel.de/safety/wichard/wichard.avi
        > >
        > > Like many before this system relies on the shackle spinning
        easily.
        > In my
        > > experience they don't do that when you are actually flying a kite,
        > > loading up the shackle. Notice that in the video the lines are
        all
        > pretty
        > > slack. Also, imagine doing the same thing with 4+ twists. Could
        be a
        > > serious problem. I don't think you'd ever want to wrap your leash
        > around
        > > another line. It could easily result in a situation where
        deploying
        > the
        > > leash does not result in the kite depowering. R!

        I'm planning to build it using the 2002 Wipika pin release in
        combination with a rotating bar http://www.flow-
        motion.de/shop/images/100018.jpg

        I tested it yesterday and so far so good. I guess the best test is
        while really kiteboarding and the depower is under full load.

        Regarding wear of the depowerloop: Wipika has a plastic tube over the
        depowerloop so I guess wear is no issue.
        Keep more useful comments coming!
      • Peter Frank
        ... the ... The plastic tube on the Wipika are only on some models. You can obtain and use the C-bar with or without the tube. Many prefer the depower without
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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          > I'm planning to build it using the 2002 Wipika pin release in
          > combination with a rotating bar http://www.flow-
          > motion.de/shop/images/100018.jpg
          >
          > I tested it yesterday and so far so good. I guess the best test is
          > while really kiteboarding and the depower is under full load.
          >
          > Regarding wear of the depowerloop: Wipika has a plastic tube over
          the
          > depowerloop so I guess wear is no issue.
          > Keep more useful comments coming!

          The plastic tube on the Wipika are only on some models.
          You can obtain and use the C-bar with or without the tube.

          Many prefer the depower without tube, as you can sheet in and out way
          faster and easier.
          The locking systems is not used by most pro's - as free sheeting, and
          an extra trapeze loop for the hook is the most common (I prefer that).

          And on the Apex-0 Carbon bar, you dont have tube either.

          :-) Peter
        • hernanhome
          Peter & Frank: I m trying a new system that seems to solve the spinning leash problem. As you know, the main issue is the shackel swivel not rotating under
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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            Peter & Frank:

            I m trying a new system that seems to solve the spinning leash
            problem.
            As you know, the main issue is the shackel swivel not rotating
            under load. If it doesn t rotate, the leash will tangle.
            I find a simple and cheap solution to this:
            The bungie bar (to give it a name).
            I was flying airblast with bridles on and I want to take the bridles
            of the 8,4. I dont use fixed loop on my bars, so I was thinking on
            how to reduce arm fatige as I m used to the light feel of he
            bridled kite. I decide to put a bungie loop (end to end) and attach
            it to the depower ring (above the release). I get a very confortable
            assistance, a more free feeling than using a fixed loop (the bar
            steers normaly), the kite flies more stable and the best thing: the
            depower rope rotates as a unit with the bar when you unspin the
            bar. The turning forces induced by the bungie are enough to
            rotate the shackle swivel, So no more leash tangles!!
            IT WORKS, you must try it!!

            Hernan
          • hernanhome
            Sorry, I forgot the link with the pictures: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/LeashSystems/Bung ie%20Bar%20%26%20spinning%20leash/ ... bridles ...
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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              Sorry, I forgot the link with the pictures:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/LeashSystems/Bung
              ie%20Bar%20%26%20spinning%20leash/


              --- In kitesurf@y..., "hernanhome" <hernanhome@i...> wrote:
              > Peter & Frank:
              >
              > I m trying a new system that seems to solve the spinning leash
              > problem.
              > As you know, the main issue is the shackel swivel not rotating
              > under load. If it doesn t rotate, the leash will tangle.
              > I find a simple and cheap solution to this:
              > The bungie bar (to give it a name).
              > I was flying airblast with bridles on and I want to take the
              bridles
              > of the 8,4. I dont use fixed loop on my bars, so I was thinking
              on
              > how to reduce arm fatige as I m used to the light feel of he
              > bridled kite. I decide to put a bungie loop (end to end) and
              attach
              > it to the depower ring (above the release). I get a very
              confortable
              > assistance, a more free feeling than using a fixed loop (the bar
              > steers normaly), the kite flies more stable and the best thing:
              the
              > depower rope rotates as a unit with the bar when you unspin
              the
              > bar. The turning forces induced by the bungie are enough to
              > rotate the shackle swivel, So no more leash tangles!!
              > IT WORKS, you must try it!!
              >
              > Hernan
            • dutchkitesurfer
              ... is ... over ... way ... and ... that). ... I disabled the locking meachanism immedeatly on both my Wipika C- bars. All Wipika bars here in the Netherlands
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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                --- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
                > > I'm planning to build it using the 2002 Wipika pin release in
                > > combination with a rotating bar http://www.flow-
                > > motion.de/shop/images/100018.jpg
                > >
                > > I tested it yesterday and so far so good. I guess the best test
                is
                > > while really kiteboarding and the depower is under full load.
                > >
                > > Regarding wear of the depowerloop: Wipika has a plastic tube
                over
                > the
                > > depowerloop so I guess wear is no issue.
                > > Keep more useful comments coming!
                >
                > The plastic tube on the Wipika are only on some models.
                > You can obtain and use the C-bar with or without the tube.
                >
                > Many prefer the depower without tube, as you can sheet in and out
                way
                > faster and easier.
                > The locking systems is not used by most pro's - as free sheeting,
                and
                > an extra trapeze loop for the hook is the most common (I prefer
                that).
                >
                > And on the Apex-0 Carbon bar, you dont have tube either.
                >
                > :-) Peter

                I disabled the locking meachanism immedeatly on both my Wipika C-
                bars. All Wipika bars here in the Netherlands come with platictube
                around the depowerloop.

                I will post my comments after I've used it while kiting. Forecast
                says we will have wind here on friday.
              • kiteboard2000
                ... load ... system ... There are several systems which spin quite well, because they use a separate swivel for the leash (which has very little load).
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:

                  > Most systems won't work well under load - and you are under full
                  load
                  > all the time...
                  > I ALWAYS use a safety leash, and until a good useable unspin
                  system
                  > appears, I'll just jump the other way around to unspin. This is
                  > really good practice anyway.

                  There are several systems which spin quite well, because they use a
                  separate swivel for the leash (which has very little load). There's
                  one pictured at
                  http://scka.org/images2/spinleash2.jpg
                  It's not all that clear, but just below the shackle there's a
                  stopper ball, & then a plain stainless O-ring, to which the leash
                  attaches. Very cheap, simple, & effective. It's shown with a
                  center-line sliding-ring leash, but should work equally well on a
                  rear line, &/or with an old style system.

                  Mel
                • Peter Frank
                  ... Thats a brilliant idea Mel, with a no-load leash ring. And if the leash does not untwist totally by itself, it can be done easily with one hand (unlike
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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                    > http://scka.org/images2/spinleash2.jpg

                    Thats a brilliant idea Mel, with a "no-load" leash ring.

                    And if the leash does not untwist totally by itself, it can be done
                    easily with one hand (unlike the shackle which can be tough to spin
                    under heavy load).

                    Will think about how to use it in different systems.

                    One major problem in many complete systems, is the distance the
                    depower is from the hook.
                    It should be as near as possible - so you can power the kite fully up
                    (or even stall it on purpose).
                    AND - some has a riding style with the bar very close to the harness.

                    Anyway - the bar should be able to be pulled almost down to the
                    harness hook.
                    This is not possible in many of the (home)solutions made today.

                    The goal should be to obtain the max. possible power/depower
                    distance, meaning bar able to come close to the hook, and able to
                    slide away to fully extended arms (or more...)

                    :-) Peter

                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "kiteboard2000" <kiteboarder@p...> wrote:
                    > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Peter Frank" <pf@4...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Most systems won't work well under load - and you are under full
                    > load
                    > > all the time...
                    > > I ALWAYS use a safety leash, and until a good useable unspin
                    > system
                    > > appears, I'll just jump the other way around to unspin. This is
                    > > really good practice anyway.
                    >
                    > There are several systems which spin quite well, because they use a
                    > separate swivel for the leash (which has very little load).
                    There's
                    > one pictured at
                    > http://scka.org/images2/spinleash2.jpg
                    > It's not all that clear, but just below the shackle there's a
                    > stopper ball, & then a plain stainless O-ring, to which the leash
                    > attaches. Very cheap, simple, & effective. It's shown with a
                    > center-line sliding-ring leash, but should work equally well on a
                    > rear line, &/or with an old style system.
                    >
                    > Mel
                  • Anthony
                    ... Peter, I used to think the same thing. However there are two issues. 1. The maximum bar travel should be no more then the distance between the front and
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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                      >
                      > The goal should be to obtain the max. possible power/depower
                      > distance, meaning bar able to come close to the hook, and able to
                      > slide away to fully extended arms (or more...)
                      >


                      Peter,

                      I used to think the same thing. However there are two issues.

                      1. The maximum bar travel should be no more then the distance between
                      the front and back pigtails on the kite. This is the theroetical
                      maximum depower situation which is still impossible since it would
                      mean your kite has swivelled through a full 90 degrees.

                      2. Too much depower can be a bad thing when you start to do one
                      handed and no handed tricks (thats hands on the bar). If you are in
                      teh air and let go of the bar and it is allowed to travell to full
                      depower, you tend to fall out the air quiet quickly.

                      What I do now is not to have such a full depower travel. If the wind
                      is that strong that it need to depower more then use the trim strap.

                      Cheers

                      Anthony
                    • Peter Frank
                      I don t agree fully Anthony. 1. All new fast kites fly more on the front lines, than the backlines. This means, you can let go fully of the bar (even cut your
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 2, 2002
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                        I don't agree fully Anthony.

                        1. All new fast kites fly more on the front lines, than the backlines.
                        This means, you can let go fully of the bar (even cut your backlines
                        away for a short time... It'll still fly).
                        When you depower in high winds - you need to have the rear lines more
                        or less slack. The wind resistance in the lines, creates a lot of
                        tension on the rear points, which is more than adequate to steer the
                        kite.
                        So the depower distance could be much bigger than the expected
                        theoretical distance ! (And often is...)

                        2. One handed tricks (rear hand off bar) - no problem, you can feel
                        and control the power with one hand on the bar.
                        No-handed tricks ? That would be a problem - but always use the fixed
                        loop for this (thats why its there...), and you will never have
                        problems !
                        And if you are doing one handed with your rear hand on the bar - use
                        the fixed loop again.


                        Another problem with too short depower distance (I am talking without
                        bridles, because this is the most used), is in the lulls.
                        It is perfect like you say, to use the trimstrap to adjust to the
                        wind, yep.
                        But if the wind suddenly drops to near nothing, you should be able to
                        just find the sweet spot again for these few moments it might last,
                        instead of using the trimstrap.
                        And vice versa in the gusts of course - it is sweet just to have full
                        power / depower control immediately.

                        These are just my preferences - like you say, it might be very
                        individual...

                        :-) Peter Frank

                        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Anthony" <captain1@i...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > The goal should be to obtain the max. possible power/depower
                        > > distance, meaning bar able to come close to the hook, and able to
                        > > slide away to fully extended arms (or more...)
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > Peter,
                        >
                        > I used to think the same thing. However there are two issues.
                        >
                        > 1. The maximum bar travel should be no more then the distance
                        between
                        > the front and back pigtails on the kite. This is the theroetical
                        > maximum depower situation which is still impossible since it would
                        > mean your kite has swivelled through a full 90 degrees.
                        >
                        > 2. Too much depower can be a bad thing when you start to do one
                        > handed and no handed tricks (thats hands on the bar). If you are in
                        > teh air and let go of the bar and it is allowed to travell to full
                        > depower, you tend to fall out the air quiet quickly.
                        >
                        > What I do now is not to have such a full depower travel. If the
                        wind
                        > is that strong that it need to depower more then use the trim strap.
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        >
                        > Anthony
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