Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ksurf] Board dynamics

Expand Messages
  • hernanhome
    i ve made myself a ... ocume multiplex (ply) ... windconditions ... Probabbly you are already riding your directional powered up. ... made a huge ... 19.9
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      i've made myself a
      > small, wide & sharp edged board from a one piece 9mm
      ocume multiplex (ply)
      > and found out i didn't need any larger kite while in the same
      windconditions
      > as my large directional..!

      Probabbly you are already riding your directional powered up.
      >
      > i also found out that the outline (more straight or more curved)
      made a huge
      > difference for the board was first diamond shaped ( <> ) and
      19.9" wide
      > which made the board not too good too control while edgeing
      and also felt
      > like the board was hitting it's brakes.. i then copied the outline
      from a
      > standard production board which made the outline more
      curved and brought
      > back the wideness to a 17.3". it was (it's broken now) a 4.1'
      shortboard and
      > it was really sliceing the water.. the 'brakes' were definately off,
      so my
      > hypothetical(?) conclusion was that board dynamics should
      include a (good)
      > outline as well. next question should be: what is a good
      outline, and how to
      > make one..

      This is not an easy question. You could not isolate a design
      element of a board because board design is a matter of
      balance. Balance between the outline, rocker, rails, thickness
      flow, flex, weight and materials. Little changes in anyone of this
      elements and your board will ride different.
      The ultimate pourpose of a board is to suit a rider in a speciffic
      condition, so you must know what you want from your board.
      Hung details are fine and I want to give my impressions from
      other perspective:
      - Outline & rocker: Curves are slower than straight lines
      - Curves are more forgiving
      - Rails: Thin rails are grippier. Sharp rail are fast. Round rails are
      forgiving.
      - Thickness and thickness flow are consecuence of rail design
      - Flex: more flex = less speed = more control = confortable
      - Weight: light is good.
      - Construction has influence in overall weight, balance and flex
      (and durability of course)
      Last: good riding boards looks good!



      > stoked4life, rudy.g
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Hung Vu" <hungvu@n...>
      >
      > > Deliberately tried a number of boards of different sizes,
      shapes and
      > > types, here are some of the findings I found (some of them
      are well
      > > known but I put them here anyway):
      > >
      > > 1- Small boards need more power, large boards need less
      power. So for
      > > the same wind speed, use larger kite for a smaller board
      and smaller
      > > kite for a larger board.
      > > 2- One can go for a board as small as one like up to a point
      where one's
      > > leg get tired too soon - cannot handle the kite power for a very
      long
      > > period (for me its a 120 cm long and around 36-38 cm wide)
      > > 3- One can go for a board as large as one like until it
      becomes too
      > > clumsy (for me its the FOne 230, 230 cm long, 50 cm wide)
      > > 4- Thinner rail is more efficient than thicker rail for edging.
      > > Sharpness has some impact but not as much as thickness.
      > > 5- Longer rail is more efficient for edging
      > > 6- So short boards should have thinner rail and long boards
      can have
      > > thicker rail.
      > > 7- Fins are not needed on bi-directional boards (regardless
      of board
      > > size, shape and rail type)
      > > 8- Directionals are better for variable wind and light wind
      conditions
      > > 9- Shorter boards are excellent for jumping
      > > 10- Longer/larger boards are better for light wind
      > >
      > > Hung.
      > >
      > > to unsubscribe send a message to
      kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
    • Andre Myburgh
      ... Hi Hung, Could you elaborate on this? Why do we have those small fins on production boards if they are not needed ? I ve had a plywood board without fins
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        > > 7- Fins are not needed on bi-directional boards (regardless
        > of board
        > > size, shape and rail type)

        Hi Hung,

        Could you elaborate on this? Why do we have those small fins on production
        boards if they are "not needed"? I've had a plywood board without fins and
        it did feel a bit loose - almost like I could raise or lower the nose
        without effecting the edging/direction of travel. That said, I had no
        problem edging it or going upwind. I am not sure about jumping ability -
        snapped the board after the first jump.

        Would like to hear more detail on finless boards, as I'm building a new foam
        board with channels running the full length of the board and would like to
        know what advantage fins would add before I go to the trouble of building
        them.

        Tanks

        Cheers

        André
      • hink_trent
        ... production ... My personal opinion is that the reason they put all those fins on production bi-directional boards is to scam us out of our money. Fins are
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
          >
          > Could you elaborate on this? Why do we have those small fins on
          production
          > boards if they are "not needed"?

          My personal opinion is that the reason they put all those fins on
          production bi-directional boards is to scam us out of our money. Fins
          are expensive and the mark-up is high. Furthermore I believe that
          adding a bunch of fins to a wakeboard actually hurts performance
          because when you put fins next to the rail they generate lift that
          actually push the rail up out of the water when you are going fast
          and trying to edge hard. The more overpowered you are and the more
          you need to edge, the more upward lift a fin near the rail will
          generate. More fins also make the board harder to spin around in the
          water when you change direction.

          The only thing fins do for kiteboards is give directional stability
          when you ride with the board flat on the water. In very underpowered
          conditions, a bunch of fins can let you keep the board flat on the
          water and point upwind a little better, but as soon as you get
          powered up to the point where you need to edge the board, the fins
          start working against you.

          I've been using no more fin than I need to keep the board from
          sliding out from under me when I screw up on landings - One 1.5" fin
          mounted in the center of each end of the board. If you are just
          learning you micht want a little more and if you are experienced an
          want a super loose ride you might like a little less or no fins at
          all.

          Hung, your board dynamics list is very good but I think the one thing
          that is missing is board width; For any given legnth and outline a
          wider board will get planning earlier but be harder to edge when
          overpowered. A narrower board will not plane as early but will be
          easier to control when you need to edge hard. width is way more
          important than legnth when you are underpowered.
        • hungvuatnetcomdotca
          ... Both fin and edging provide tracking in kitesurfing. The more you use your edge, the less you need fin. Furthermore, the less board rocker, the less fin
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In kitesurf@y..., "hink_trent" <hink_trent@y...> wrote:
            > --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Could you elaborate on this? Why do we have those small fins on
            > production
            > > boards if they are "not needed"?

            Both fin and edging provide tracking in kitesurfing. The more you use
            your edge, the less you need fin. Furthermore, the less board rocker,
            the less fin you need. So for a bidirectional kiteboard, which has
            minimum rocker and ride on its edge most of the time, fins are more
            like training wheels.

            Directional still need fins due to its unbalance riding position (more
            to the tail).

            > My personal opinion is that the reason they put all those fins on
            > production bi-directional boards is to scam us out of our money.
            Fins
            > are expensive and the mark-up is high.

            Or maybe just honest old die-hard habits (like they used to have fins
            on snowboards in the early days).

            > Furthermore I believe that
            > adding a bunch of fins to a wakeboard actually hurts performance
            > because when you put fins next to the rail they generate lift that
            > actually push the rail up out of the water when you are going fast
            > and trying to edge hard. The more overpowered you are and the more
            > you need to edge, the more upward lift a fin near the rail will
            > generate.

            This sounds interesting!

            > More fins also make the board harder to spin around in the
            > water when you change direction.

            True!

            > The only thing fins do for kiteboards is give directional stability
            > when you ride with the board flat on the water. In very underpowered
            > conditions, a bunch of fins can let you keep the board flat on the
            > water and point upwind a little better, but as soon as you get
            > powered up to the point where you need to edge the board, the fins
            > start working against you.

            There is one instance fins do provide some natural assistance in
            maintaining tracking stability is when you whip the kite
            backward/upward for jumping; however, this can be achieved easily by
            focusing on maintaining the edge while whipping the kite
            backward/upward. Once again, fins are like training wheels, once you
            get the "balance", you don't need them.

            > Hung, your board dynamics list is very good but I think the one
            thing
            > that is missing is board width; For any given legnth and outline a
            > wider board will get planning earlier but be harder to edge when
            > overpowered. A narrower board will not plane as early but will be
            > easier to control when you need to edge hard. width is way more
            > important than legnth when you are underpowered.

            Good point! I did not mention more on width just because I haven't
            tried enough different widths (for the same board length); however, in
            general, width is as important as length in calculating board size.

            Hung.
          • kitesnowboarder
            Hi Hung i have been riding my kiteloose parabolic AX 160 board most of this season finless i try boards like crazy and keep going back to it i ride it finless
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 27, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Hung
              i have been riding my kiteloose parabolic AX 160 board most of this
              season finless
              i try boards like crazy and keep going back to it
              i ride it finless and love it
              though i could jump higher on it when i rode it with fins
              i could hold it down better with fins when i shot the kite through
              the apex to jump
              going finless i can do switch riding like a breeze
              i am going to throw a set of 1 inch shannon best fins on it to see if
              they will fill in the jumping gap from the 1 1/2 inch stock fins i
              took off it
              the stock fins track way too much and flippin the board around is hard
              being a parabolic board really inhances the finless edging
              also the shape smokes in our lake waves
              it rides exactly like my snowboard, smooth as butter
              which is really nice for me, i am lazy
              but you are right on the finless thing
              it can be done no problem but fins are nice too if the board is
              teamed with the right fins for your style
              i really think the 1 inch fins will be absolutly perfect on there for
              me
              but we will see

              Later

              Dan Sheridan
              http://www.kitesurfingcanada.com
              http://www.kitesnowboarding.net
              Serving Canada and the USA.
              Email: dan@...
              Phone: 416 818 6787


              --- In kitesurf@y..., "hungvuatnetcomdotca" <hungvu@n...> wrote:
              > --- In kitesurf@y..., "hink_trent" <hink_trent@y...> wrote:
              > > --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Could you elaborate on this? Why do we have those small fins on
              > > production
              > > > boards if they are "not needed"?
              >
              > Both fin and edging provide tracking in kitesurfing. The more you
              use
              > your edge, the less you need fin. Furthermore, the less board
              rocker,
              > the less fin you need. So for a bidirectional kiteboard, which has
              > minimum rocker and ride on its edge most of the time, fins are more
              > like training wheels.
              >
              > Directional still need fins due to its unbalance riding position
              (more
              > to the tail).
              >
              > > My personal opinion is that the reason they put all those fins on
              > > production bi-directional boards is to scam us out of our money.
              > Fins
              > > are expensive and the mark-up is high.
              >
              > Or maybe just honest old die-hard habits (like they used to have
              fins
              > on snowboards in the early days).
              >
              > > Furthermore I believe that
              > > adding a bunch of fins to a wakeboard actually hurts performance
              > > because when you put fins next to the rail they generate lift
              that
              > > actually push the rail up out of the water when you are going
              fast
              > > and trying to edge hard. The more overpowered you are and the
              more
              > > you need to edge, the more upward lift a fin near the rail will
              > > generate.
              >
              > This sounds interesting!
              >
              > > More fins also make the board harder to spin around in the
              > > water when you change direction.
              >
              > True!
              >
              > > The only thing fins do for kiteboards is give directional
              stability
              > > when you ride with the board flat on the water. In very
              underpowered
              > > conditions, a bunch of fins can let you keep the board flat on
              the
              > > water and point upwind a little better, but as soon as you get
              > > powered up to the point where you need to edge the board, the
              fins
              > > start working against you.
              >
              > There is one instance fins do provide some natural assistance in
              > maintaining tracking stability is when you whip the kite
              > backward/upward for jumping; however, this can be achieved easily
              by
              > focusing on maintaining the edge while whipping the kite
              > backward/upward. Once again, fins are like training wheels, once
              you
              > get the "balance", you don't need them.
              >
              > > Hung, your board dynamics list is very good but I think the one
              > thing
              > > that is missing is board width; For any given legnth and outline
              a
              > > wider board will get planning earlier but be harder to edge when
              > > overpowered. A narrower board will not plane as early but will be
              > > easier to control when you need to edge hard. width is way more
              > > important than legnth when you are underpowered.
              >
              > Good point! I did not mention more on width just because I haven't
              > tried enough different widths (for the same board length); however,
              in
              > general, width is as important as length in calculating board size.
              >
              > Hung.
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.