Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ksurf] Board dynamics

Expand Messages
  • lowrider
    could you be (perhaps another time, another test with selfmade boards) more specific towards small/large, wide/narrow and outline? i ve made myself a small,
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      could you be (perhaps another time, another test with selfmade boards) more
      specific towards small/large, wide/narrow and outline? i've made myself a
      small, wide & sharp edged board from a one piece 9mm ocume multiplex (ply)
      and found out i didn't need any larger kite while in the same windconditions
      as my large directional..!

      i also found out that the outline (more straight or more curved) made a huge
      difference for the board was first diamond shaped ( <> ) and 19.9" wide
      which made the board not too good too control while edgeing and also felt
      like the board was hitting it's brakes.. i then copied the outline from a
      standard production board which made the outline more curved and brought
      back the wideness to a 17.3". it was (it's broken now) a 4.1' shortboard and
      it was really sliceing the water.. the 'brakes' were definately off, so my
      hypothetical(?) conclusion was that board dynamics should include a (good)
      outline as well. next question should be: what is a good outline, and how to
      make one..

      stoked4life, rudy.g

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Hung Vu" <hungvu@...>

      > Deliberately tried a number of boards of different sizes, shapes and
      > types, here are some of the findings I found (some of them are well
      > known but I put them here anyway):
      >
      > 1- Small boards need more power, large boards need less power. So for
      > the same wind speed, use larger kite for a smaller board and smaller
      > kite for a larger board.
      > 2- One can go for a board as small as one like up to a point where one's
      > leg get tired too soon - cannot handle the kite power for a very long
      > period (for me its a 120 cm long and around 36-38 cm wide)
      > 3- One can go for a board as large as one like until it becomes too
      > clumsy (for me its the FOne 230, 230 cm long, 50 cm wide)
      > 4- Thinner rail is more efficient than thicker rail for edging.
      > Sharpness has some impact but not as much as thickness.
      > 5- Longer rail is more efficient for edging
      > 6- So short boards should have thinner rail and long boards can have
      > thicker rail.
      > 7- Fins are not needed on bi-directional boards (regardless of board
      > size, shape and rail type)
      > 8- Directionals are better for variable wind and light wind conditions
      > 9- Shorter boards are excellent for jumping
      > 10- Longer/larger boards are better for light wind
      >
      > Hung.
      >
      > to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • hernanhome
      i ve made myself a ... ocume multiplex (ply) ... windconditions ... Probabbly you are already riding your directional powered up. ... made a huge ... 19.9
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        i've made myself a
        > small, wide & sharp edged board from a one piece 9mm
        ocume multiplex (ply)
        > and found out i didn't need any larger kite while in the same
        windconditions
        > as my large directional..!

        Probabbly you are already riding your directional powered up.
        >
        > i also found out that the outline (more straight or more curved)
        made a huge
        > difference for the board was first diamond shaped ( <> ) and
        19.9" wide
        > which made the board not too good too control while edgeing
        and also felt
        > like the board was hitting it's brakes.. i then copied the outline
        from a
        > standard production board which made the outline more
        curved and brought
        > back the wideness to a 17.3". it was (it's broken now) a 4.1'
        shortboard and
        > it was really sliceing the water.. the 'brakes' were definately off,
        so my
        > hypothetical(?) conclusion was that board dynamics should
        include a (good)
        > outline as well. next question should be: what is a good
        outline, and how to
        > make one..

        This is not an easy question. You could not isolate a design
        element of a board because board design is a matter of
        balance. Balance between the outline, rocker, rails, thickness
        flow, flex, weight and materials. Little changes in anyone of this
        elements and your board will ride different.
        The ultimate pourpose of a board is to suit a rider in a speciffic
        condition, so you must know what you want from your board.
        Hung details are fine and I want to give my impressions from
        other perspective:
        - Outline & rocker: Curves are slower than straight lines
        - Curves are more forgiving
        - Rails: Thin rails are grippier. Sharp rail are fast. Round rails are
        forgiving.
        - Thickness and thickness flow are consecuence of rail design
        - Flex: more flex = less speed = more control = confortable
        - Weight: light is good.
        - Construction has influence in overall weight, balance and flex
        (and durability of course)
        Last: good riding boards looks good!



        > stoked4life, rudy.g
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Hung Vu" <hungvu@n...>
        >
        > > Deliberately tried a number of boards of different sizes,
        shapes and
        > > types, here are some of the findings I found (some of them
        are well
        > > known but I put them here anyway):
        > >
        > > 1- Small boards need more power, large boards need less
        power. So for
        > > the same wind speed, use larger kite for a smaller board
        and smaller
        > > kite for a larger board.
        > > 2- One can go for a board as small as one like up to a point
        where one's
        > > leg get tired too soon - cannot handle the kite power for a very
        long
        > > period (for me its a 120 cm long and around 36-38 cm wide)
        > > 3- One can go for a board as large as one like until it
        becomes too
        > > clumsy (for me its the FOne 230, 230 cm long, 50 cm wide)
        > > 4- Thinner rail is more efficient than thicker rail for edging.
        > > Sharpness has some impact but not as much as thickness.
        > > 5- Longer rail is more efficient for edging
        > > 6- So short boards should have thinner rail and long boards
        can have
        > > thicker rail.
        > > 7- Fins are not needed on bi-directional boards (regardless
        of board
        > > size, shape and rail type)
        > > 8- Directionals are better for variable wind and light wind
        conditions
        > > 9- Shorter boards are excellent for jumping
        > > 10- Longer/larger boards are better for light wind
        > >
        > > Hung.
        > >
        > > to unsubscribe send a message to
        kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
      • Andre Myburgh
        ... Hi Hung, Could you elaborate on this? Why do we have those small fins on production boards if they are not needed ? I ve had a plywood board without fins
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          > > 7- Fins are not needed on bi-directional boards (regardless
          > of board
          > > size, shape and rail type)

          Hi Hung,

          Could you elaborate on this? Why do we have those small fins on production
          boards if they are "not needed"? I've had a plywood board without fins and
          it did feel a bit loose - almost like I could raise or lower the nose
          without effecting the edging/direction of travel. That said, I had no
          problem edging it or going upwind. I am not sure about jumping ability -
          snapped the board after the first jump.

          Would like to hear more detail on finless boards, as I'm building a new foam
          board with channels running the full length of the board and would like to
          know what advantage fins would add before I go to the trouble of building
          them.

          Tanks

          Cheers

          André
        • hink_trent
          ... production ... My personal opinion is that the reason they put all those fins on production bi-directional boards is to scam us out of our money. Fins are
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
            >
            > Could you elaborate on this? Why do we have those small fins on
            production
            > boards if they are "not needed"?

            My personal opinion is that the reason they put all those fins on
            production bi-directional boards is to scam us out of our money. Fins
            are expensive and the mark-up is high. Furthermore I believe that
            adding a bunch of fins to a wakeboard actually hurts performance
            because when you put fins next to the rail they generate lift that
            actually push the rail up out of the water when you are going fast
            and trying to edge hard. The more overpowered you are and the more
            you need to edge, the more upward lift a fin near the rail will
            generate. More fins also make the board harder to spin around in the
            water when you change direction.

            The only thing fins do for kiteboards is give directional stability
            when you ride with the board flat on the water. In very underpowered
            conditions, a bunch of fins can let you keep the board flat on the
            water and point upwind a little better, but as soon as you get
            powered up to the point where you need to edge the board, the fins
            start working against you.

            I've been using no more fin than I need to keep the board from
            sliding out from under me when I screw up on landings - One 1.5" fin
            mounted in the center of each end of the board. If you are just
            learning you micht want a little more and if you are experienced an
            want a super loose ride you might like a little less or no fins at
            all.

            Hung, your board dynamics list is very good but I think the one thing
            that is missing is board width; For any given legnth and outline a
            wider board will get planning earlier but be harder to edge when
            overpowered. A narrower board will not plane as early but will be
            easier to control when you need to edge hard. width is way more
            important than legnth when you are underpowered.
          • hungvuatnetcomdotca
            ... Both fin and edging provide tracking in kitesurfing. The more you use your edge, the less you need fin. Furthermore, the less board rocker, the less fin
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In kitesurf@y..., "hink_trent" <hink_trent@y...> wrote:
              > --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Could you elaborate on this? Why do we have those small fins on
              > production
              > > boards if they are "not needed"?

              Both fin and edging provide tracking in kitesurfing. The more you use
              your edge, the less you need fin. Furthermore, the less board rocker,
              the less fin you need. So for a bidirectional kiteboard, which has
              minimum rocker and ride on its edge most of the time, fins are more
              like training wheels.

              Directional still need fins due to its unbalance riding position (more
              to the tail).

              > My personal opinion is that the reason they put all those fins on
              > production bi-directional boards is to scam us out of our money.
              Fins
              > are expensive and the mark-up is high.

              Or maybe just honest old die-hard habits (like they used to have fins
              on snowboards in the early days).

              > Furthermore I believe that
              > adding a bunch of fins to a wakeboard actually hurts performance
              > because when you put fins next to the rail they generate lift that
              > actually push the rail up out of the water when you are going fast
              > and trying to edge hard. The more overpowered you are and the more
              > you need to edge, the more upward lift a fin near the rail will
              > generate.

              This sounds interesting!

              > More fins also make the board harder to spin around in the
              > water when you change direction.

              True!

              > The only thing fins do for kiteboards is give directional stability
              > when you ride with the board flat on the water. In very underpowered
              > conditions, a bunch of fins can let you keep the board flat on the
              > water and point upwind a little better, but as soon as you get
              > powered up to the point where you need to edge the board, the fins
              > start working against you.

              There is one instance fins do provide some natural assistance in
              maintaining tracking stability is when you whip the kite
              backward/upward for jumping; however, this can be achieved easily by
              focusing on maintaining the edge while whipping the kite
              backward/upward. Once again, fins are like training wheels, once you
              get the "balance", you don't need them.

              > Hung, your board dynamics list is very good but I think the one
              thing
              > that is missing is board width; For any given legnth and outline a
              > wider board will get planning earlier but be harder to edge when
              > overpowered. A narrower board will not plane as early but will be
              > easier to control when you need to edge hard. width is way more
              > important than legnth when you are underpowered.

              Good point! I did not mention more on width just because I haven't
              tried enough different widths (for the same board length); however, in
              general, width is as important as length in calculating board size.

              Hung.
            • kitesnowboarder
              Hi Hung i have been riding my kiteloose parabolic AX 160 board most of this season finless i try boards like crazy and keep going back to it i ride it finless
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 27, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Hung
                i have been riding my kiteloose parabolic AX 160 board most of this
                season finless
                i try boards like crazy and keep going back to it
                i ride it finless and love it
                though i could jump higher on it when i rode it with fins
                i could hold it down better with fins when i shot the kite through
                the apex to jump
                going finless i can do switch riding like a breeze
                i am going to throw a set of 1 inch shannon best fins on it to see if
                they will fill in the jumping gap from the 1 1/2 inch stock fins i
                took off it
                the stock fins track way too much and flippin the board around is hard
                being a parabolic board really inhances the finless edging
                also the shape smokes in our lake waves
                it rides exactly like my snowboard, smooth as butter
                which is really nice for me, i am lazy
                but you are right on the finless thing
                it can be done no problem but fins are nice too if the board is
                teamed with the right fins for your style
                i really think the 1 inch fins will be absolutly perfect on there for
                me
                but we will see

                Later

                Dan Sheridan
                http://www.kitesurfingcanada.com
                http://www.kitesnowboarding.net
                Serving Canada and the USA.
                Email: dan@...
                Phone: 416 818 6787


                --- In kitesurf@y..., "hungvuatnetcomdotca" <hungvu@n...> wrote:
                > --- In kitesurf@y..., "hink_trent" <hink_trent@y...> wrote:
                > > --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Could you elaborate on this? Why do we have those small fins on
                > > production
                > > > boards if they are "not needed"?
                >
                > Both fin and edging provide tracking in kitesurfing. The more you
                use
                > your edge, the less you need fin. Furthermore, the less board
                rocker,
                > the less fin you need. So for a bidirectional kiteboard, which has
                > minimum rocker and ride on its edge most of the time, fins are more
                > like training wheels.
                >
                > Directional still need fins due to its unbalance riding position
                (more
                > to the tail).
                >
                > > My personal opinion is that the reason they put all those fins on
                > > production bi-directional boards is to scam us out of our money.
                > Fins
                > > are expensive and the mark-up is high.
                >
                > Or maybe just honest old die-hard habits (like they used to have
                fins
                > on snowboards in the early days).
                >
                > > Furthermore I believe that
                > > adding a bunch of fins to a wakeboard actually hurts performance
                > > because when you put fins next to the rail they generate lift
                that
                > > actually push the rail up out of the water when you are going
                fast
                > > and trying to edge hard. The more overpowered you are and the
                more
                > > you need to edge, the more upward lift a fin near the rail will
                > > generate.
                >
                > This sounds interesting!
                >
                > > More fins also make the board harder to spin around in the
                > > water when you change direction.
                >
                > True!
                >
                > > The only thing fins do for kiteboards is give directional
                stability
                > > when you ride with the board flat on the water. In very
                underpowered
                > > conditions, a bunch of fins can let you keep the board flat on
                the
                > > water and point upwind a little better, but as soon as you get
                > > powered up to the point where you need to edge the board, the
                fins
                > > start working against you.
                >
                > There is one instance fins do provide some natural assistance in
                > maintaining tracking stability is when you whip the kite
                > backward/upward for jumping; however, this can be achieved easily
                by
                > focusing on maintaining the edge while whipping the kite
                > backward/upward. Once again, fins are like training wheels, once
                you
                > get the "balance", you don't need them.
                >
                > > Hung, your board dynamics list is very good but I think the one
                > thing
                > > that is missing is board width; For any given legnth and outline
                a
                > > wider board will get planning earlier but be harder to edge when
                > > overpowered. A narrower board will not plane as early but will be
                > > easier to control when you need to edge hard. width is way more
                > > important than legnth when you are underpowered.
                >
                > Good point! I did not mention more on width just because I haven't
                > tried enough different widths (for the same board length); however,
                in
                > general, width is as important as length in calculating board size.
                >
                > Hung.
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.