Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: website flash sucks

Expand Messages
  • vide72au
    using Flash in a website doesn t mean that it will take longer to load, or be more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact Flash allows
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 1, 2002
      using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to load, or be
      more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact Flash
      allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more bandwidth
      efficient way that HTML does.

      All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid, but it is not
      Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers. The common
      mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first time visitor,
      and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in reality, people
      feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems that are
      familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also be viewed as
      being boring. But in my view, navigation should be boring, and it should be
      easy to use. The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
      and not the navigation. Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
      made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you off.

      Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By forcing a
      user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they are looking for, you
      will frustrate customers.

      My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the comments
      being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the experience
      that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash, but it may mean
      toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making navigation
      clearer.

      In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good content. But on
      the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is unfamiliar, so
      you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting, but the price
      you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out on much of
      the content or leave the site completely.

      Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows things to
      download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used in some
      ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being downloaded in
      one go instead of an individual page.


      --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
      > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a shared
      > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time which
      > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web page is
      > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative html
      > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
      > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled most
      > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply showcases
      > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content--
      > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what content
      > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation. If I
      > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
      > movies ;-)
      >
      > Steve T.
      >
      >
      > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
      > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to
      > load.
      > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and still no
      > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a busy
      > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
      > >
      > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers use
      > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able to
      > > access individual pages.
      > >
      > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and that
      > only
      > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to play
      > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
      > >
      > > Examples of good web sites:
      > >
      > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
      > > http://www.nova-wings.com
      > > http://www.flyozone.com
      > >
      > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to news
      > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to bookmark
      > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on with
      > > what I want to do.
      > >
      > > Regards
      > >
      > > Greg
    • theomnipotence
      ... load, or be ... Flash ... bandwidth ... .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be it pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
        --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
        > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to
        load, or be
        > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact
        Flash
        > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more
        bandwidth
        > efficient way that HTML does.

        .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be it
        pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by using a
        whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!

        > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid, but
        it is not
        > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers.

        .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard with
        it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for one
        don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just leisurely
        surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry, it
        can ge annoying.


        > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first
        time visitor,
        > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in
        reality, people
        > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems
        that are
        > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also
        be viewed as
        > being boring.

        ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be simple...real
        simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors may
        find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya mon,
        it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
        forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?

        > The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
        > and not the navigation.

        ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the hero, and
        navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that doesn't mean
        that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep navigation
        simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same time,
        using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may make it
        suck slow, but not just plain and boring.

        > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
        > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you off.

        ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
        ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a few,
        and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH animations
        that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a button on
        it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
        animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok thing
        to have I think.

        >
        > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By
        forcing a
        > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they are
        looking for, you
        > will frustrate customers.

        .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but when
        you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know how
        true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and true that
        you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see any
        statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say that
        this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It sounds
        old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
        internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some people on
        the net today would have never found their way here if they hadn't
        signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
        people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
        shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net today
        for entertainment than for specific informations searching by far.
        In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is BAD
        to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what they are
        looking for. It is frustrating.

        >
        > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
        comments
        > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
        experience
        > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash, but
        it may mean
        > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
        navigation
        > clearer.

        .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
        sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The e-
        boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has Flash
        right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
        content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought LiteWaves
        Navigation was clear enough.

        >
        > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good content.
        But on
        > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is
        unfamiliar, so
        > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting, but
        the price
        > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out
        on much of
        > the content or leave the site completely.
        >

        ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
        school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived thing,
        but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers are
        trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or place
        my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen to be
        hunting for something in particular on the site.

        > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
        things to
        > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used in
        some
        > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
        downloaded in
        > one go instead of an individual page.

        .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
        properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when animation is
        being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used much, and
        this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to zoom
        in on the map on the cabarete map page....

        http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html

        The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website layout and
        entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman and
        others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and effort,
        and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's, primitive
        connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you are
        running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all as
        opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am guilty
        of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I just
        don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now, and
        two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better terms. I
        don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't acceptable
        anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos and
        other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to access
        our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that they
        exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
        choice.

        At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i AM
        just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I can and
        the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my site and
        offer your feedback on it for me if you would.

        http://www.floridakitesurfing.com

        It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
        Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH disabled
        on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site as the
        menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.

        I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as that I
        may make it better wuth future updates.

        MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work for
        me are...

        http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
        http://www.virtualom.com

        Johnny

        >
        >
        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
        > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a
        shared
        > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time
        which
        > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web page
        is
        > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative
        html
        > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
        > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled
        most
        > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
        showcases
        > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content--
        > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what content
        > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation. If
        I
        > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
        > > movies ;-)
        > >
        > > Steve T.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
        > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to
        > > load.
        > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and
        still no
        > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a
        busy
        > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
        > > >
        > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers
        use
        > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able
        to
        > > > access individual pages.
        > > >
        > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and
        that
        > > only
        > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to
        play
        > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
        > > >
        > > > Examples of good web sites:
        > > >
        > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
        > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
        > > > http://www.flyozone.com
        > > >
        > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to
        news
        > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
        bookmark
        > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on
        with
        > > > what I want to do.
        > > >
        > > > Regards
        > > >
        > > > Greg
      • drsurfau
        For whatever way you are using Flash or html the customer, (or user), comes first. Designer egos, monster graphics, obtuse navigation and needless animation
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
          For whatever way you are using Flash or html the customer, (or user),
          comes first.

          Designer egos, monster graphics, obtuse navigation and needless
          animation can really turn people off. And don't forget what is
          entertaining the first time is timewasting and boring every subsequent
          time. Are you going to pay your webdesigner to add a new animation
          every week? Didn't think so.

          I do a small amount of average web design, (no time to do it really
          well), and sell software and hardware for graphic artists, webdesigners
          and video producers as well as kitesurf and windsurf gear.

          If a website is to be entertaining it's got fresh every time you look
          at it. If it is designed to be informative it's got to be quick, easy
          to navigate and with a minimal number of clicks to find what you want.

          I have a website for holiday cottages we own. Initially done in a hurry
          with the bare minimum of features but with all the necessary
          information one click or a quick scroll away it has proved a hit with
          the type of clients we are catering for. ie time poor people looking to
          get away to the coast for a weekend or longer. Many is the time we've
          had the comment that they chose us as a destination as they found
          everything they really needed to know on the first page whereas on our
          competitors websites you had to try to navigate through a confusing
          graphic heavy site for about 5 - 10 minutes before you could, a) find
          out where the place was located and, b) find out how much it cost.

          Needless to say I have not altered the experiences that my clients
          value, any extra graphical information added has been via additional
          pages which are purely for photos etc. In TV and video production it is
          generally accepted that you are less than ten seconds away from losing
          your viewers, (customers). So why are people going to wait much longer
          on a computer for something interesting to happen?

          And as a Mac computer user and reseller I find that all the really
          useful Mac info sites I go to tend to be information rich with minimal
          graphics even though the Mac is the best graphic design machine.

          For a non technology example of how information is best imparted, look
          at a book. Contents at the beginning, index at the end and info in the
          middle in paragraphs. Pictures as deemed necessary. In a novel you've
          just got the middle bit only. It's been like that for a long time and
          it works well. Everyone, (I hope), knows how to use one without having
          to be shown.

          Got a broadband connection going in this month which will be cool, but
          that's no excuse for overzealous webdesigners to fill my bandwidth with
          needless crap.

          Have fun, Dave (Dr Surf Australia) COM

          --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
          > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to load, or be
          > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact Flash
          > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more bandwidth
          > efficient way that HTML does.
          >
          > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid, but it is not
          > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers. The common
          > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first time visitor,
          > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in reality, people
          > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems that are
          > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also be viewed as
          > being boring. But in my view, navigation should be boring, and it should be
          > easy to use. The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
          > and not the navigation. Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
          > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you off.
          >
          > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By forcing a
          > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they are looking for, you
          > will frustrate customers.
          >
          > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the comments
          > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the experience
          > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash, but it may mean
          > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making navigation
          > clearer.
          >
          > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good content. But on
          > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is unfamiliar, so
          > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting, but the price
          > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out on much of
          > the content or leave the site completely.
          >
          > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows things to
          > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used in some
          > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being downloaded in
          > one go instead of an individual page.
          >
          >
          > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
          > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a shared
          > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time which
          > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web page is
          > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative html
          > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
          > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled most
          > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply showcases
          > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content--
          > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what content
          > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation. If I
          > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
          > > movies ;-)
          > >
          > > Steve T.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
          > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to
          > > load.
          > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and still no
          > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a busy
          > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
          > > >
          > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers use
          > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able to
          > > > access individual pages.
          > > >
          > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and that
          > > only
          > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to play
          > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
          > > >
          > > > Examples of good web sites:
          > > >
          > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
          > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
          > > > http://www.flyozone.com
          > > >
          > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to news
          > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to bookmark
          > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on with
          > > > what I want to do.
          > > >
          > > > Regards
          > > >
          > > > Greg
        • Guy Davis
          ... Agreed. I don t mind Flash but I do think it is overused. The thing that kills me is the stupid use of browser-specific Javascript to try to determine
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
            On Tue, 2002-07-02 at 07:17, drsurfau wrote:
            > For whatever way you are using Flash or html the customer, (or user),
            > comes first.

            Agreed. I don't mind Flash but I do think it is overused. The thing
            that kills me is the stupid use of browser-specific Javascript to try to
            determine whether a browser has Flash installed.

            For example, the Kiteboarding Magazine site
            (http://www.kiteboardingmag.com) won't let me view it on my machine.
            (Redhat Linux with Galeon browser) It simply tells me to go download
            Flash 5 even though I already have it installed and working fine for a
            number of other sites. This Windows-specific programming is just
            brain-dead.

            Now I'm a programmer by trade, not a businessman, but it doesn't seem
            like very good idea to tell valid users to get stuffed. How well would
            a car dealership do if it only sold cars to people under 6 feet tall,
            excluding tall people for no good reason?

            --
            Guy Davis http://www.guydavis.ca
            PGP: D2E2 76D4 0C9C 5D99 42AA EB6B B9C2 68CA 2DC7 F2E4
          • theflyingtinman
            I understand that ... but the fact remains that on MOST Flash sites that I ve encountered in my browsing I ve gotten an overriding feeling that the message is
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
              I understand that ... but the fact remains that on MOST Flash sites
              that I've encountered in my browsing I've gotten an overriding
              feeling that the message is not so much "Look what we have to say",
              but rather "Look what I can do". I know it's the "artists" that are
              to blame and not the tools, but by their very nature most "artists"
              are more concerned with what people think of their presentation than
              with how well they convey the message. Before Flash came
              along "artists" tried to acheive the same effect--and made the same
              mistakes--in plain old HTML, (I also disable all but the first frame
              of GIF animations) but the very restrictive nature of early versions
              of HTML meant that all but the most skillful artists had a real hard
              time making a page where the presentation was so eyecatching that
              people would email each other links to it say "Check out this cool
              site!" even though it may have had inferior content and/or
              unintuitive navigation.

              So until Flash is more widely used by people with at least as much of
              a handle on business presentation as they have on cooking up a batch
              of eye-candy then I'll keep filtering it out.

              Steve T.


              --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
              > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer
              > to load, or be more complicated to navigate that a website
              > built in HTML. In fact Flash allows certain types of content
              > to be delivered in a much more bandwidth efficient way that HTML
              > does.


              > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
              >> My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and
              >> a shared 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all
              >> the time which kills Flash animations before they are downloaded.
              >> If a web page is presented with Flash only (and no html nav
              >> links or alternative html content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
              >> Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled
              >> most of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
              >> showcases for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light
              >> on content-- which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and
              >> what content they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the
              >> animation. If I want to see interesting moving pictures I watch
              >> TV or go to the movies ;-)
              >>
              >> Steve T.
            • ariraptis
              WHOA !!! This response is W A Y too long!! Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it ! While we are on the subject, is the picture of a
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
                WHOA !!!

                This response is W A Y too long!!
                Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !

                While we are on the subject, is the picture of a girl in the ad on
                your message page done with Flash? It fades much too quickly!In fact
                it would be better if it just stayed there!!

                Also,as far as websites go,you can't beat the flash site
                for "Flash"himself ,with the interactive pics,or,best of all,the
                Naish site with the 3D X2

                Ari






                --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                > --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                > > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to
                > load, or be
                > > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In
                fact
                > Flash
                > > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more
                > bandwidth
                > > efficient way that HTML does.
                >
                > .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be it
                > pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by using
                a
                > whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!
                >
                > > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid,
                but
                > it is not
                > > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers.
                >
                > .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard with
                > it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for one
                > don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just leisurely
                > surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry, it
                > can ge annoying.
                >
                >
                > > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first
                > time visitor,
                > > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in
                > reality, people
                > > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems
                > that are
                > > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also
                > be viewed as
                > > being boring.
                >
                > ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be simple...real
                > simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors may
                > find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya mon,
                > it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
                > forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?
                >
                > > The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
                > > and not the navigation.
                >
                > ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the hero,
                and
                > navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that doesn't
                mean
                > that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep
                navigation
                > simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same time,
                > using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may make it
                > suck slow, but not just plain and boring.
                >
                > > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
                > > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you
                off.
                >
                > ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
                > ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a few,
                > and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH
                animations
                > that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a button
                on
                > it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
                > animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok
                thing
                > to have I think.
                >
                > >
                > > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By
                > forcing a
                > > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they
                are
                > looking for, you
                > > will frustrate customers.
                >
                > .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but
                when
                > you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know how
                > true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and true
                that
                > you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see any
                > statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say that
                > this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It
                sounds
                > old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
                > internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some people on
                > the net today would have never found their way here if they hadn't
                > signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
                > people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
                > shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net
                today
                > for entertainment than for specific informations searching by far.
                > In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is BAD
                > to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what they
                are
                > looking for. It is frustrating.
                >
                > >
                > > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
                > comments
                > > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
                > experience
                > > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash,
                but
                > it may mean
                > > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
                > navigation
                > > clearer.
                >
                > .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
                > sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The e-
                > boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has
                Flash
                > right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
                > content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought
                LiteWaves
                > Navigation was clear enough.
                >
                > >
                > > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good
                content.
                > But on
                > > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is
                > unfamiliar, so
                > > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting,
                but
                > the price
                > > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out
                > on much of
                > > the content or leave the site completely.
                > >
                >
                > ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
                > school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived
                thing,
                > but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers are
                > trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or
                place
                > my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen to be
                > hunting for something in particular on the site.
                >
                > > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
                > things to
                > > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used
                in
                > some
                > > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
                > downloaded in
                > > one go instead of an individual page.
                >
                > .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
                > properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when animation
                is
                > being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used much,
                and
                > this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to zoom
                > in on the map on the cabarete map page....
                >
                > http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html
                >
                > The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website layout
                and
                > entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman and
                > others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and effort,
                > and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's,
                primitive
                > connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you are
                > running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all as
                > opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am
                guilty
                > of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I just
                > don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now, and
                > two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better terms.
                I
                > don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't acceptable
                > anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos and
                > other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to access
                > our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that they
                > exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
                > choice.
                >
                > At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i AM
                > just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I can
                and
                > the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my site
                and
                > offer your feedback on it for me if you would.
                >
                > http://www.floridakitesurfing.com
                >
                > It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
                > Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH
                disabled
                > on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site as
                the
                > menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.
                >
                > I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as that I
                > may make it better wuth future updates.
                >
                > MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work for
                > me are...
                >
                > http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
                > http://www.virtualom.com
                >
                > Johnny
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                > > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a
                > shared
                > > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time
                > which
                > > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web
                page
                > is
                > > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative
                > html
                > > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                > > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled
                > most
                > > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                > showcases
                > > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content-
                -
                > > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what
                content
                > > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation.
                If
                > I
                > > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
                > > > movies ;-)
                > > >
                > > > Steve T.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
                > > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long
                to
                > > > load.
                > > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and
                > still no
                > > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a
                > busy
                > > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
                > > > >
                > > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow.
                Designers
                > use
                > > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not
                able
                > to
                > > > > access individual pages.
                > > > >
                > > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and
                > that
                > > > only
                > > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have
                to
                > play
                > > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
                > > > >
                > > > > Examples of good web sites:
                > > > >
                > > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
                > > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
                > > > > http://www.flyozone.com
                > > > >
                > > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to
                > news
                > > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
                > bookmark
                > > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on
                > with
                > > > > what I want to do.
                > > > >
                > > > > Regards
                > > > >
                > > > > Greg
              • theomnipotence
                ... Yo ARI, GOOD, go ahead and give up reading it....whatever. You always came across to me as a quitter of sorts anyway. Do me a favor their oh great one,
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                  > WHOA !!!
                  >
                  > This response is W A Y too long!!
                  > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                  >

                  Yo ARI,
                  GOOD, go ahead and give up reading it....whatever. You always came
                  across to me as a quitter of sorts anyway. Do me a favor their oh
                  great one, and QUIT reading my posts entirely! I can't recall a
                  single time you added anything to them aside from your sarcasm,
                  criticism and smart ass ways. Your time would be much better spent
                  practicing speaking in 3rd person.....HERE, let me try this 3rd
                  person thing so as that maybe the right guy will see how stupid is
                  sounds...

                  JOHNNY dunno if JOHNNY would call the "Viewpoint Media Player" on the
                  X2 site FLASH, but then...what does JOHNNY know...aside from how to
                  write long posts. Nothing better than being told that your machine
                  needs to download yet ANOTHER pluging to view a kite in 3D.

                  Flash's FLASH website is elementary at best! It has very little
                  content, a few movies that continuosly loop once you click to load
                  them, then they loop until you click the jump button, then they call
                  on a clip of him doing a jump and then return back to the main
                  looping clip....now that's some serious rocket science at work there
                  for ya!

                  JOHNNY don't have time to access these groups 20 or 30 times a day
                  like some, so JOHNNY say's it ALL in one post the one or two times a
                  day that JOHNNY is here. Don't like em???.....Don't read em.

                  This thread was meant for website makers and their critics.
                  JOHNNY'S post offered insight on this subject. You don't care to
                  read it all cuz you really have no interest in what's being said.
                  Maybe you can't find a way to stir up any shit from within it.
                  MAYBE, if you were into designing sights instead of designing,
                  creating, imagining & promoting your greatness, you would have found
                  JOHNNY'S writings informative.

                  Ok, I tried speaking in 3rd person and it felt as stupid as it
                  sounds. So that's it on that for me.

                  Hope THIS post isn't W A Y too long for you. Wait, what am I
                  sayin'? I HOPE LIKE HELL this post too, is W A Y too long for you as
                  YOU I prefer to not have reading them.

                  The bottom line is...FLASH IS the future of the internet, and all the
                  whining and filtering you do in this world is not going to change
                  this. It's like windsurfers crying about kitesurfing....whatcha
                  gonna do???, Stop kitesurfing? I THINK NOT! And these so
                  called "Flash Artists", as so many are calling the Flash designers
                  these days, aren't going to stop designing and molding the way of the
                  internet either, so ya best get used to it or sell your pc....OR,
                  filter it all out so you miss alot of the content that alot of sites
                  DO have to offer.

                  Pea's Out!


                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                  > WHOA !!!
                  >
                  > This response is W A Y too long!!
                  > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                  >
                  > While we are on the subject, is the picture of a girl in the ad on
                  > your message page done with Flash? It fades much too quickly!In
                  fact
                  > it would be better if it just stayed there!!
                  >
                  > Also,as far as websites go,you can't beat the flash site
                  > for "Flash"himself ,with the interactive pics,or,best of all,the
                  > Naish site with the 3D X2
                  >
                  > Ari
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                  > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                  > > > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer
                  to
                  > > load, or be
                  > > > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In
                  > fact
                  > > Flash
                  > > > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more
                  > > bandwidth
                  > > > efficient way that HTML does.
                  > >
                  > > .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be
                  it
                  > > pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by
                  using
                  > a
                  > > whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!
                  > >
                  > > > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid,
                  > but
                  > > it is not
                  > > > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web
                  designers.
                  > >
                  > > .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard
                  with
                  > > it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for one
                  > > don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just
                  leisurely
                  > > surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry,
                  it
                  > > can ge annoying.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first
                  > > time visitor,
                  > > > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in
                  > > reality, people
                  > > > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems
                  > > that are
                  > > > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can
                  also
                  > > be viewed as
                  > > > being boring.
                  > >
                  > > ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be
                  simple...real
                  > > simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors may
                  > > find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya
                  mon,
                  > > it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
                  > > forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?
                  > >
                  > > > The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
                  > > > and not the navigation.
                  > >
                  > > ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the hero,
                  > and
                  > > navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that doesn't
                  > mean
                  > > that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep
                  > navigation
                  > > simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same
                  time,
                  > > using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may make
                  it
                  > > suck slow, but not just plain and boring.
                  > >
                  > > > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
                  > > > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you
                  > off.
                  > >
                  > > ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
                  > > ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a
                  few,
                  > > and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH
                  > animations
                  > > that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a button
                  > on
                  > > it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
                  > > animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok
                  > thing
                  > > to have I think.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information.
                  By
                  > > forcing a
                  > > > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they
                  > are
                  > > looking for, you
                  > > > will frustrate customers.
                  > >
                  > > .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but
                  > when
                  > > you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know
                  how
                  > > true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and true
                  > that
                  > > you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see
                  any
                  > > statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say that
                  > > this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It
                  > sounds
                  > > old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
                  > > internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some people
                  on
                  > > the net today would have never found their way here if they
                  hadn't
                  > > signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
                  > > people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
                  > > shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net
                  > today
                  > > for entertainment than for specific informations searching by
                  far.
                  > > In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is
                  BAD
                  > > to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what they
                  > are
                  > > looking for. It is frustrating.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
                  > > comments
                  > > > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
                  > > experience
                  > > > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash,
                  > but
                  > > it may mean
                  > > > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
                  > > navigation
                  > > > clearer.
                  > >
                  > > .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
                  > > sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The e-
                  > > boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has
                  > Flash
                  > > right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
                  > > content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought
                  > LiteWaves
                  > > Navigation was clear enough.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good
                  > content.
                  > > But on
                  > > > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is
                  > > unfamiliar, so
                  > > > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting,
                  > but
                  > > the price
                  > > > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss
                  out
                  > > on much of
                  > > > the content or leave the site completely.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
                  > > school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived
                  > thing,
                  > > but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers are
                  > > trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or
                  > place
                  > > my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen to
                  be
                  > > hunting for something in particular on the site.
                  > >
                  > > > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
                  > > things to
                  > > > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When
                  used
                  > in
                  > > some
                  > > > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
                  > > downloaded in
                  > > > one go instead of an individual page.
                  > >
                  > > .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
                  > > properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when
                  animation
                  > is
                  > > being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used much,
                  > and
                  > > this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to
                  zoom
                  > > in on the map on the cabarete map page....
                  > >
                  > > http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html
                  > >
                  > > The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website layout
                  > and
                  > > entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman and
                  > > others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and
                  effort,
                  > > and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's,
                  > primitive
                  > > connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you
                  are
                  > > running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all as
                  > > opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am
                  > guilty
                  > > of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I just
                  > > don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now,
                  and
                  > > two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better
                  terms.
                  > I
                  > > don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't
                  acceptable
                  > > anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos
                  and
                  > > other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to
                  access
                  > > our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that
                  they
                  > > exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
                  > > choice.
                  > >
                  > > At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i
                  AM
                  > > just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I can
                  > and
                  > > the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my site
                  > and
                  > > offer your feedback on it for me if you would.
                  > >
                  > > http://www.floridakitesurfing.com
                  > >
                  > > It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
                  > > Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH
                  > disabled
                  > > on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site as
                  > the
                  > > menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.
                  > >
                  > > I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as that
                  I
                  > > may make it better wuth future updates.
                  > >
                  > > MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work
                  for
                  > > me are...
                  > >
                  > > http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
                  > > http://www.virtualom.com
                  > >
                  > > Johnny
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                  > > > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a
                  > > shared
                  > > > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time
                  > > which
                  > > > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web
                  > page
                  > > is
                  > > > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or
                  alternative
                  > > html
                  > > > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                  > > > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash
                  disabled
                  > > most
                  > > > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                  > > showcases
                  > > > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on
                  content-
                  > -
                  > > > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what
                  > content
                  > > > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the
                  animation.
                  > If
                  > > I
                  > > > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to
                  the
                  > > > > movies ;-)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Steve T.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
                  > > > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long
                  > to
                  > > > > load.
                  > > > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and
                  > > still no
                  > > > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was
                  a
                  > > busy
                  > > > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow.
                  > Designers
                  > > use
                  > > > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not
                  > able
                  > > to
                  > > > > > access individual pages.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and
                  > > that
                  > > > > only
                  > > > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have
                  > to
                  > > play
                  > > > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Examples of good web sites:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
                  > > > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
                  > > > > > http://www.flyozone.com
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates
                  to
                  > > news
                  > > > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
                  > > bookmark
                  > > > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get
                  on
                  > > with
                  > > > > > what I want to do.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Regards
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Greg
                • ariraptis
                  Well heres a dude with a BIG problem!! Seems he can t handle Ari even READING his posts!! Ari must really be messin wit yo mind !! As for criticising Ari s
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
                    Well heres a dude with a BIG problem!!

                    Seems he can't handle Ari even READING his posts!!

                    Ari must really be messin'wit yo mind !!

                    As for criticising Ari's habit of referring to himself in the 3rd
                    person,well,thats rich coming from someone calling himself "The
                    Omnipotence" !!!!!

                    Obviously Johny The Omnipotence is a Paranoid Schitzophrenic with
                    Megalomaniacal tendencies!

                    Anyway,Ari likes Websites that offer something different and
                    interesting. Yes,those animations are not done with flash,but the
                    point is,they offer something distinctive for entertainment.Of course
                    Ari has a super fast cable connection,so does not have a problem with
                    them,or flash etc.

                    As for the Plebs with dial up-----well let them fly Arcs!!

                    Ari




                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                    > --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                    > > WHOA !!!
                    > >
                    > > This response is W A Y too long!!
                    > > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                    > >
                    >
                    > Yo ARI,
                    > GOOD, go ahead and give up reading it....whatever. You always
                    came
                    > across to me as a quitter of sorts anyway. Do me a favor their oh
                    > great one, and QUIT reading my posts entirely! I can't recall a
                    > single time you added anything to them aside from your sarcasm,
                    > criticism and smart ass ways. Your time would be much better spent
                    > practicing speaking in 3rd person.....HERE, let me try this 3rd
                    > person thing so as that maybe the right guy will see how stupid is
                    > sounds...
                    >
                    > JOHNNY dunno if JOHNNY would call the "Viewpoint Media Player" on
                    the
                    > X2 site FLASH, but then...what does JOHNNY know...aside from how to
                    > write long posts. Nothing better than being told that your machine
                    > needs to download yet ANOTHER pluging to view a kite in 3D.
                    >
                    > Flash's FLASH website is elementary at best! It has very little
                    > content, a few movies that continuosly loop once you click to load
                    > them, then they loop until you click the jump button, then they
                    call
                    > on a clip of him doing a jump and then return back to the main
                    > looping clip....now that's some serious rocket science at work
                    there
                    > for ya!
                    >
                    > JOHNNY don't have time to access these groups 20 or 30 times a day
                    > like some, so JOHNNY say's it ALL in one post the one or two times
                    a
                    > day that JOHNNY is here. Don't like em???.....Don't read em.
                    >
                    > This thread was meant for website makers and their critics.
                    > JOHNNY'S post offered insight on this subject. You don't care to
                    > read it all cuz you really have no interest in what's being said.
                    > Maybe you can't find a way to stir up any shit from within it.
                    > MAYBE, if you were into designing sights instead of designing,
                    > creating, imagining & promoting your greatness, you would have
                    found
                    > JOHNNY'S writings informative.
                    >
                    > Ok, I tried speaking in 3rd person and it felt as stupid as it
                    > sounds. So that's it on that for me.
                    >
                    > Hope THIS post isn't W A Y too long for you. Wait, what am I
                    > sayin'? I HOPE LIKE HELL this post too, is W A Y too long for you
                    as
                    > YOU I prefer to not have reading them.
                    >
                    > The bottom line is...FLASH IS the future of the internet, and all
                    the
                    > whining and filtering you do in this world is not going to change
                    > this. It's like windsurfers crying about kitesurfing....whatcha
                    > gonna do???, Stop kitesurfing? I THINK NOT! And these so
                    > called "Flash Artists", as so many are calling the Flash designers
                    > these days, aren't going to stop designing and molding the way of
                    the
                    > internet either, so ya best get used to it or sell your pc....OR,
                    > filter it all out so you miss alot of the content that alot of
                    sites
                    > DO have to offer.
                    >
                    > Pea's Out!
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                    > > WHOA !!!
                    > >
                    > > This response is W A Y too long!!
                    > > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                    > >
                    > > While we are on the subject, is the picture of a girl in the ad
                    on
                    > > your message page done with Flash? It fades much too quickly!In
                    > fact
                    > > it would be better if it just stayed there!!
                    > >
                    > > Also,as far as websites go,you can't beat the flash site
                    > > for "Flash"himself ,with the interactive pics,or,best of all,the
                    > > Naish site with the 3D X2
                    > >
                    > > Ari
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                    > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                    > > > > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take
                    longer
                    > to
                    > > > load, or be
                    > > > > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In
                    > > fact
                    > > > Flash
                    > > > > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much
                    more
                    > > > bandwidth
                    > > > > efficient way that HTML does.
                    > > >
                    > > > .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be
                    > it
                    > > > pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by
                    > using
                    > > a
                    > > > whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!
                    > > >
                    > > > > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very
                    valid,
                    > > but
                    > > > it is not
                    > > > > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web
                    > designers.
                    > > >
                    > > > .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard
                    > with
                    > > > it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for
                    one
                    > > > don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just
                    > leisurely
                    > > > surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry,
                    > it
                    > > > can ge annoying.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a
                    first
                    > > > time visitor,
                    > > > > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work.
                    in
                    > > > reality, people
                    > > > > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation
                    systems
                    > > > that are
                    > > > > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can
                    > also
                    > > > be viewed as
                    > > > > being boring.
                    > > >
                    > > > ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be
                    > simple...real
                    > > > simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors
                    may
                    > > > find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya
                    > mon,
                    > > > it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
                    > > > forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?
                    > > >
                    > > > > The content is the hero, and this is what should be
                    interesting
                    > > > > and not the navigation.
                    > > >
                    > > > ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the
                    hero,
                    > > and
                    > > > navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that
                    doesn't
                    > > mean
                    > > > that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep
                    > > navigation
                    > > > simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same
                    > time,
                    > > > using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may
                    make
                    > it
                    > > > suck slow, but not just plain and boring.
                    > > >
                    > > > > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
                    > > > > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you
                    > > off.
                    > > >
                    > > > ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
                    > > > ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a
                    > few,
                    > > > and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH
                    > > animations
                    > > > that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a
                    button
                    > > on
                    > > > it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
                    > > > animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok
                    > > thing
                    > > > to have I think.
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific
                    information.
                    > By
                    > > > forcing a
                    > > > > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what
                    they
                    > > are
                    > > > looking for, you
                    > > > > will frustrate customers.
                    > > >
                    > > > .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but
                    > > when
                    > > > you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know
                    > how
                    > > > true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and
                    true
                    > > that
                    > > > you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see
                    > any
                    > > > statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say
                    that
                    > > > this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It
                    > > sounds
                    > > > old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
                    > > > internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some
                    people
                    > on
                    > > > the net today would have never found their way here if they
                    > hadn't
                    > > > signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
                    > > > people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
                    > > > shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net
                    > > today
                    > > > for entertainment than for specific informations searching by
                    > far.
                    > > > In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is
                    > BAD
                    > > > to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what
                    they
                    > > are
                    > > > looking for. It is frustrating.
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
                    > > > comments
                    > > > > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
                    > > > experience
                    > > > > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of
                    Flash,
                    > > but
                    > > > it may mean
                    > > > > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
                    > > > navigation
                    > > > > clearer.
                    > > >
                    > > > .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
                    > > > sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The
                    e-
                    > > > boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has
                    > > Flash
                    > > > right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
                    > > > content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought
                    > > LiteWaves
                    > > > Navigation was clear enough.
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good
                    > > content.
                    > > > But on
                    > > > > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which
                    is
                    > > > unfamiliar, so
                    > > > > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more
                    interesting,
                    > > but
                    > > > the price
                    > > > > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss
                    > out
                    > > > on much of
                    > > > > the content or leave the site completely.
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
                    > > > school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived
                    > > thing,
                    > > > but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers
                    are
                    > > > trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or
                    > > place
                    > > > my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen
                    to
                    > be
                    > > > hunting for something in particular on the site.
                    > > >
                    > > > > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
                    > > > things to
                    > > > > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When
                    > used
                    > > in
                    > > > some
                    > > > > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
                    > > > downloaded in
                    > > > > one go instead of an individual page.
                    > > >
                    > > > .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
                    > > > properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when
                    > animation
                    > > is
                    > > > being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used
                    much,
                    > > and
                    > > > this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to
                    > zoom
                    > > > in on the map on the cabarete map page....
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html
                    > > >
                    > > > The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website
                    layout
                    > > and
                    > > > entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman
                    and
                    > > > others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and
                    > effort,
                    > > > and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's,
                    > > primitive
                    > > > connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you
                    > are
                    > > > running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all
                    as
                    > > > opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am
                    > > guilty
                    > > > of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I
                    just
                    > > > don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now,
                    > and
                    > > > two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better
                    > terms.
                    > > I
                    > > > don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't
                    > acceptable
                    > > > anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos
                    > and
                    > > > other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to
                    > access
                    > > > our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that
                    > they
                    > > > exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
                    > > > choice.
                    > > >
                    > > > At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i
                    > AM
                    > > > just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I
                    can
                    > > and
                    > > > the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my
                    site
                    > > and
                    > > > offer your feedback on it for me if you would.
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.floridakitesurfing.com
                    > > >
                    > > > It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
                    > > > Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH
                    > > disabled
                    > > > on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site
                    as
                    > > the
                    > > > menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.
                    > > >
                    > > > I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as
                    that
                    > I
                    > > > may make it better wuth future updates.
                    > > >
                    > > > MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work
                    > for
                    > > > me are...
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
                    > > > http://www.virtualom.com
                    > > >
                    > > > Johnny
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                    > > > > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and
                    a
                    > > > shared
                    > > > > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the
                    time
                    > > > which
                    > > > > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web
                    > > page
                    > > > is
                    > > > > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or
                    > alternative
                    > > > html
                    > > > > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                    > > > > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash
                    > disabled
                    > > > most
                    > > > > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                    > > > showcases
                    > > > > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on
                    > content-
                    > > -
                    > > > > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what
                    > > content
                    > > > > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the
                    > animation.
                    > > If
                    > > > I
                    > > > > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to
                    > the
                    > > > > > movies ;-)
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Steve T.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
                    > > > > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too
                    long
                    > > to
                    > > > > > load.
                    > > > > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded
                    and
                    > > > still no
                    > > > > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site
                    was
                    > a
                    > > > busy
                    > > > > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow.
                    > > Designers
                    > > > use
                    > > > > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces.
                    Not
                    > > able
                    > > > to
                    > > > > > > access individual pages.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site
                    and
                    > > > that
                    > > > > > only
                    > > > > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You
                    have
                    > > to
                    > > > play
                    > > > > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Examples of good web sites:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
                    > > > > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
                    > > > > > > http://www.flyozone.com
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of
                    updates
                    > to
                    > > > news
                    > > > > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
                    > > > bookmark
                    > > > > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then
                    get
                    > on
                    > > > with
                    > > > > > > what I want to do.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Regards
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Greg
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.