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Re: website flash sucks

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  • gregwalshau
    Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to load. I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and still no real content. The
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 1, 2002
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      Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to load.
      I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and still no
      real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a busy
      mess and I gave up on the first page.

      Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers use
      all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able to
      access individual pages.

      One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and that only
      rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to play
      point-lotto the first few times you access it.

      Examples of good web sites:

      http://www.e-boards.com.au/
      http://www.nova-wings.com
      http://www.flyozone.com

      I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to news
      pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to bookmark
      the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on with
      what I want to do.

      Regards

      Greg
    • vide72au
      using Flash in a website doesn t mean that it will take longer to load, or be more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact Flash allows
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 1, 2002
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        using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to load, or be
        more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact Flash
        allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more bandwidth
        efficient way that HTML does.

        All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid, but it is not
        Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers. The common
        mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first time visitor,
        and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in reality, people
        feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems that are
        familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also be viewed as
        being boring. But in my view, navigation should be boring, and it should be
        easy to use. The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
        and not the navigation. Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
        made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you off.

        Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By forcing a
        user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they are looking for, you
        will frustrate customers.

        My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the comments
        being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the experience
        that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash, but it may mean
        toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making navigation
        clearer.

        In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good content. But on
        the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is unfamiliar, so
        you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting, but the price
        you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out on much of
        the content or leave the site completely.

        Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows things to
        download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used in some
        ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being downloaded in
        one go instead of an individual page.


        --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
        > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a shared
        > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time which
        > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web page is
        > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative html
        > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
        > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled most
        > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply showcases
        > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content--
        > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what content
        > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation. If I
        > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
        > movies ;-)
        >
        > Steve T.
        >
        >
        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
        > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to
        > load.
        > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and still no
        > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a busy
        > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
        > >
        > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers use
        > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able to
        > > access individual pages.
        > >
        > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and that
        > only
        > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to play
        > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
        > >
        > > Examples of good web sites:
        > >
        > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
        > > http://www.nova-wings.com
        > > http://www.flyozone.com
        > >
        > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to news
        > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to bookmark
        > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on with
        > > what I want to do.
        > >
        > > Regards
        > >
        > > Greg
      • theomnipotence
        ... load, or be ... Flash ... bandwidth ... .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be it pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
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          --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
          > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to
          load, or be
          > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact
          Flash
          > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more
          bandwidth
          > efficient way that HTML does.

          .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be it
          pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by using a
          whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!

          > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid, but
          it is not
          > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers.

          .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard with
          it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for one
          don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just leisurely
          surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry, it
          can ge annoying.


          > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first
          time visitor,
          > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in
          reality, people
          > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems
          that are
          > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also
          be viewed as
          > being boring.

          ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be simple...real
          simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors may
          find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya mon,
          it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
          forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?

          > The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
          > and not the navigation.

          ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the hero, and
          navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that doesn't mean
          that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep navigation
          simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same time,
          using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may make it
          suck slow, but not just plain and boring.

          > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
          > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you off.

          ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
          ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a few,
          and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH animations
          that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a button on
          it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
          animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok thing
          to have I think.

          >
          > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By
          forcing a
          > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they are
          looking for, you
          > will frustrate customers.

          .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but when
          you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know how
          true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and true that
          you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see any
          statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say that
          this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It sounds
          old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
          internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some people on
          the net today would have never found their way here if they hadn't
          signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
          people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
          shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net today
          for entertainment than for specific informations searching by far.
          In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is BAD
          to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what they are
          looking for. It is frustrating.

          >
          > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
          comments
          > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
          experience
          > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash, but
          it may mean
          > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
          navigation
          > clearer.

          .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
          sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The e-
          boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has Flash
          right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
          content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought LiteWaves
          Navigation was clear enough.

          >
          > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good content.
          But on
          > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is
          unfamiliar, so
          > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting, but
          the price
          > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out
          on much of
          > the content or leave the site completely.
          >

          ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
          school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived thing,
          but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers are
          trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or place
          my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen to be
          hunting for something in particular on the site.

          > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
          things to
          > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used in
          some
          > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
          downloaded in
          > one go instead of an individual page.

          .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
          properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when animation is
          being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used much, and
          this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to zoom
          in on the map on the cabarete map page....

          http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html

          The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website layout and
          entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman and
          others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and effort,
          and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's, primitive
          connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you are
          running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all as
          opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am guilty
          of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I just
          don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now, and
          two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better terms. I
          don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't acceptable
          anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos and
          other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to access
          our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that they
          exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
          choice.

          At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i AM
          just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I can and
          the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my site and
          offer your feedback on it for me if you would.

          http://www.floridakitesurfing.com

          It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
          Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH disabled
          on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site as the
          menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.

          I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as that I
          may make it better wuth future updates.

          MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work for
          me are...

          http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
          http://www.virtualom.com

          Johnny

          >
          >
          > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
          > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a
          shared
          > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time
          which
          > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web page
          is
          > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative
          html
          > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
          > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled
          most
          > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
          showcases
          > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content--
          > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what content
          > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation. If
          I
          > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
          > > movies ;-)
          > >
          > > Steve T.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
          > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to
          > > load.
          > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and
          still no
          > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a
          busy
          > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
          > > >
          > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers
          use
          > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able
          to
          > > > access individual pages.
          > > >
          > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and
          that
          > > only
          > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to
          play
          > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
          > > >
          > > > Examples of good web sites:
          > > >
          > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
          > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
          > > > http://www.flyozone.com
          > > >
          > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to
          news
          > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
          bookmark
          > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on
          with
          > > > what I want to do.
          > > >
          > > > Regards
          > > >
          > > > Greg
        • drsurfau
          For whatever way you are using Flash or html the customer, (or user), comes first. Designer egos, monster graphics, obtuse navigation and needless animation
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
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            For whatever way you are using Flash or html the customer, (or user),
            comes first.

            Designer egos, monster graphics, obtuse navigation and needless
            animation can really turn people off. And don't forget what is
            entertaining the first time is timewasting and boring every subsequent
            time. Are you going to pay your webdesigner to add a new animation
            every week? Didn't think so.

            I do a small amount of average web design, (no time to do it really
            well), and sell software and hardware for graphic artists, webdesigners
            and video producers as well as kitesurf and windsurf gear.

            If a website is to be entertaining it's got fresh every time you look
            at it. If it is designed to be informative it's got to be quick, easy
            to navigate and with a minimal number of clicks to find what you want.

            I have a website for holiday cottages we own. Initially done in a hurry
            with the bare minimum of features but with all the necessary
            information one click or a quick scroll away it has proved a hit with
            the type of clients we are catering for. ie time poor people looking to
            get away to the coast for a weekend or longer. Many is the time we've
            had the comment that they chose us as a destination as they found
            everything they really needed to know on the first page whereas on our
            competitors websites you had to try to navigate through a confusing
            graphic heavy site for about 5 - 10 minutes before you could, a) find
            out where the place was located and, b) find out how much it cost.

            Needless to say I have not altered the experiences that my clients
            value, any extra graphical information added has been via additional
            pages which are purely for photos etc. In TV and video production it is
            generally accepted that you are less than ten seconds away from losing
            your viewers, (customers). So why are people going to wait much longer
            on a computer for something interesting to happen?

            And as a Mac computer user and reseller I find that all the really
            useful Mac info sites I go to tend to be information rich with minimal
            graphics even though the Mac is the best graphic design machine.

            For a non technology example of how information is best imparted, look
            at a book. Contents at the beginning, index at the end and info in the
            middle in paragraphs. Pictures as deemed necessary. In a novel you've
            just got the middle bit only. It's been like that for a long time and
            it works well. Everyone, (I hope), knows how to use one without having
            to be shown.

            Got a broadband connection going in this month which will be cool, but
            that's no excuse for overzealous webdesigners to fill my bandwidth with
            needless crap.

            Have fun, Dave (Dr Surf Australia) COM

            --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
            > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to load, or be
            > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact Flash
            > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more bandwidth
            > efficient way that HTML does.
            >
            > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid, but it is not
            > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers. The common
            > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first time visitor,
            > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in reality, people
            > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems that are
            > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also be viewed as
            > being boring. But in my view, navigation should be boring, and it should be
            > easy to use. The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
            > and not the navigation. Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
            > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you off.
            >
            > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By forcing a
            > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they are looking for, you
            > will frustrate customers.
            >
            > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the comments
            > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the experience
            > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash, but it may mean
            > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making navigation
            > clearer.
            >
            > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good content. But on
            > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is unfamiliar, so
            > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting, but the price
            > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out on much of
            > the content or leave the site completely.
            >
            > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows things to
            > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used in some
            > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being downloaded in
            > one go instead of an individual page.
            >
            >
            > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
            > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a shared
            > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time which
            > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web page is
            > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative html
            > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
            > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled most
            > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply showcases
            > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content--
            > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what content
            > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation. If I
            > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
            > > movies ;-)
            > >
            > > Steve T.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
            > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to
            > > load.
            > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and still no
            > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a busy
            > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
            > > >
            > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers use
            > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able to
            > > > access individual pages.
            > > >
            > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and that
            > > only
            > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to play
            > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
            > > >
            > > > Examples of good web sites:
            > > >
            > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
            > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
            > > > http://www.flyozone.com
            > > >
            > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to news
            > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to bookmark
            > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on with
            > > > what I want to do.
            > > >
            > > > Regards
            > > >
            > > > Greg
          • Guy Davis
            ... Agreed. I don t mind Flash but I do think it is overused. The thing that kills me is the stupid use of browser-specific Javascript to try to determine
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
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              On Tue, 2002-07-02 at 07:17, drsurfau wrote:
              > For whatever way you are using Flash or html the customer, (or user),
              > comes first.

              Agreed. I don't mind Flash but I do think it is overused. The thing
              that kills me is the stupid use of browser-specific Javascript to try to
              determine whether a browser has Flash installed.

              For example, the Kiteboarding Magazine site
              (http://www.kiteboardingmag.com) won't let me view it on my machine.
              (Redhat Linux with Galeon browser) It simply tells me to go download
              Flash 5 even though I already have it installed and working fine for a
              number of other sites. This Windows-specific programming is just
              brain-dead.

              Now I'm a programmer by trade, not a businessman, but it doesn't seem
              like very good idea to tell valid users to get stuffed. How well would
              a car dealership do if it only sold cars to people under 6 feet tall,
              excluding tall people for no good reason?

              --
              Guy Davis http://www.guydavis.ca
              PGP: D2E2 76D4 0C9C 5D99 42AA EB6B B9C2 68CA 2DC7 F2E4
            • theflyingtinman
              I understand that ... but the fact remains that on MOST Flash sites that I ve encountered in my browsing I ve gotten an overriding feeling that the message is
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
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                I understand that ... but the fact remains that on MOST Flash sites
                that I've encountered in my browsing I've gotten an overriding
                feeling that the message is not so much "Look what we have to say",
                but rather "Look what I can do". I know it's the "artists" that are
                to blame and not the tools, but by their very nature most "artists"
                are more concerned with what people think of their presentation than
                with how well they convey the message. Before Flash came
                along "artists" tried to acheive the same effect--and made the same
                mistakes--in plain old HTML, (I also disable all but the first frame
                of GIF animations) but the very restrictive nature of early versions
                of HTML meant that all but the most skillful artists had a real hard
                time making a page where the presentation was so eyecatching that
                people would email each other links to it say "Check out this cool
                site!" even though it may have had inferior content and/or
                unintuitive navigation.

                So until Flash is more widely used by people with at least as much of
                a handle on business presentation as they have on cooking up a batch
                of eye-candy then I'll keep filtering it out.

                Steve T.


                --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer
                > to load, or be more complicated to navigate that a website
                > built in HTML. In fact Flash allows certain types of content
                > to be delivered in a much more bandwidth efficient way that HTML
                > does.


                > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                >> My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and
                >> a shared 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all
                >> the time which kills Flash animations before they are downloaded.
                >> If a web page is presented with Flash only (and no html nav
                >> links or alternative html content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                >> Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled
                >> most of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                >> showcases for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light
                >> on content-- which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and
                >> what content they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the
                >> animation. If I want to see interesting moving pictures I watch
                >> TV or go to the movies ;-)
                >>
                >> Steve T.
              • ariraptis
                WHOA !!! This response is W A Y too long!! Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it ! While we are on the subject, is the picture of a
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
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                  WHOA !!!

                  This response is W A Y too long!!
                  Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !

                  While we are on the subject, is the picture of a girl in the ad on
                  your message page done with Flash? It fades much too quickly!In fact
                  it would be better if it just stayed there!!

                  Also,as far as websites go,you can't beat the flash site
                  for "Flash"himself ,with the interactive pics,or,best of all,the
                  Naish site with the 3D X2

                  Ari






                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                  > --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                  > > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to
                  > load, or be
                  > > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In
                  fact
                  > Flash
                  > > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more
                  > bandwidth
                  > > efficient way that HTML does.
                  >
                  > .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be it
                  > pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by using
                  a
                  > whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!
                  >
                  > > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid,
                  but
                  > it is not
                  > > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers.
                  >
                  > .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard with
                  > it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for one
                  > don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just leisurely
                  > surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry, it
                  > can ge annoying.
                  >
                  >
                  > > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first
                  > time visitor,
                  > > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in
                  > reality, people
                  > > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems
                  > that are
                  > > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also
                  > be viewed as
                  > > being boring.
                  >
                  > ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be simple...real
                  > simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors may
                  > find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya mon,
                  > it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
                  > forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?
                  >
                  > > The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
                  > > and not the navigation.
                  >
                  > ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the hero,
                  and
                  > navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that doesn't
                  mean
                  > that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep
                  navigation
                  > simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same time,
                  > using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may make it
                  > suck slow, but not just plain and boring.
                  >
                  > > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
                  > > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you
                  off.
                  >
                  > ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
                  > ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a few,
                  > and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH
                  animations
                  > that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a button
                  on
                  > it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
                  > animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok
                  thing
                  > to have I think.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By
                  > forcing a
                  > > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they
                  are
                  > looking for, you
                  > > will frustrate customers.
                  >
                  > .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but
                  when
                  > you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know how
                  > true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and true
                  that
                  > you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see any
                  > statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say that
                  > this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It
                  sounds
                  > old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
                  > internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some people on
                  > the net today would have never found their way here if they hadn't
                  > signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
                  > people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
                  > shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net
                  today
                  > for entertainment than for specific informations searching by far.
                  > In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is BAD
                  > to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what they
                  are
                  > looking for. It is frustrating.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
                  > comments
                  > > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
                  > experience
                  > > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash,
                  but
                  > it may mean
                  > > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
                  > navigation
                  > > clearer.
                  >
                  > .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
                  > sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The e-
                  > boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has
                  Flash
                  > right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
                  > content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought
                  LiteWaves
                  > Navigation was clear enough.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good
                  content.
                  > But on
                  > > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is
                  > unfamiliar, so
                  > > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting,
                  but
                  > the price
                  > > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out
                  > on much of
                  > > the content or leave the site completely.
                  > >
                  >
                  > ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
                  > school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived
                  thing,
                  > but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers are
                  > trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or
                  place
                  > my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen to be
                  > hunting for something in particular on the site.
                  >
                  > > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
                  > things to
                  > > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used
                  in
                  > some
                  > > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
                  > downloaded in
                  > > one go instead of an individual page.
                  >
                  > .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
                  > properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when animation
                  is
                  > being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used much,
                  and
                  > this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to zoom
                  > in on the map on the cabarete map page....
                  >
                  > http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html
                  >
                  > The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website layout
                  and
                  > entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman and
                  > others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and effort,
                  > and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's,
                  primitive
                  > connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you are
                  > running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all as
                  > opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am
                  guilty
                  > of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I just
                  > don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now, and
                  > two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better terms.
                  I
                  > don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't acceptable
                  > anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos and
                  > other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to access
                  > our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that they
                  > exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
                  > choice.
                  >
                  > At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i AM
                  > just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I can
                  and
                  > the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my site
                  and
                  > offer your feedback on it for me if you would.
                  >
                  > http://www.floridakitesurfing.com
                  >
                  > It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
                  > Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH
                  disabled
                  > on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site as
                  the
                  > menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.
                  >
                  > I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as that I
                  > may make it better wuth future updates.
                  >
                  > MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work for
                  > me are...
                  >
                  > http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
                  > http://www.virtualom.com
                  >
                  > Johnny
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                  > > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a
                  > shared
                  > > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time
                  > which
                  > > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web
                  page
                  > is
                  > > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative
                  > html
                  > > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                  > > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled
                  > most
                  > > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                  > showcases
                  > > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content-
                  -
                  > > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what
                  content
                  > > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation.
                  If
                  > I
                  > > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
                  > > > movies ;-)
                  > > >
                  > > > Steve T.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
                  > > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long
                  to
                  > > > load.
                  > > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and
                  > still no
                  > > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a
                  > busy
                  > > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow.
                  Designers
                  > use
                  > > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not
                  able
                  > to
                  > > > > access individual pages.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and
                  > that
                  > > > only
                  > > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have
                  to
                  > play
                  > > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Examples of good web sites:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
                  > > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
                  > > > > http://www.flyozone.com
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to
                  > news
                  > > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
                  > bookmark
                  > > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on
                  > with
                  > > > > what I want to do.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Regards
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Greg
                • theomnipotence
                  ... Yo ARI, GOOD, go ahead and give up reading it....whatever. You always came across to me as a quitter of sorts anyway. Do me a favor their oh great one,
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                    > WHOA !!!
                    >
                    > This response is W A Y too long!!
                    > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                    >

                    Yo ARI,
                    GOOD, go ahead and give up reading it....whatever. You always came
                    across to me as a quitter of sorts anyway. Do me a favor their oh
                    great one, and QUIT reading my posts entirely! I can't recall a
                    single time you added anything to them aside from your sarcasm,
                    criticism and smart ass ways. Your time would be much better spent
                    practicing speaking in 3rd person.....HERE, let me try this 3rd
                    person thing so as that maybe the right guy will see how stupid is
                    sounds...

                    JOHNNY dunno if JOHNNY would call the "Viewpoint Media Player" on the
                    X2 site FLASH, but then...what does JOHNNY know...aside from how to
                    write long posts. Nothing better than being told that your machine
                    needs to download yet ANOTHER pluging to view a kite in 3D.

                    Flash's FLASH website is elementary at best! It has very little
                    content, a few movies that continuosly loop once you click to load
                    them, then they loop until you click the jump button, then they call
                    on a clip of him doing a jump and then return back to the main
                    looping clip....now that's some serious rocket science at work there
                    for ya!

                    JOHNNY don't have time to access these groups 20 or 30 times a day
                    like some, so JOHNNY say's it ALL in one post the one or two times a
                    day that JOHNNY is here. Don't like em???.....Don't read em.

                    This thread was meant for website makers and their critics.
                    JOHNNY'S post offered insight on this subject. You don't care to
                    read it all cuz you really have no interest in what's being said.
                    Maybe you can't find a way to stir up any shit from within it.
                    MAYBE, if you were into designing sights instead of designing,
                    creating, imagining & promoting your greatness, you would have found
                    JOHNNY'S writings informative.

                    Ok, I tried speaking in 3rd person and it felt as stupid as it
                    sounds. So that's it on that for me.

                    Hope THIS post isn't W A Y too long for you. Wait, what am I
                    sayin'? I HOPE LIKE HELL this post too, is W A Y too long for you as
                    YOU I prefer to not have reading them.

                    The bottom line is...FLASH IS the future of the internet, and all the
                    whining and filtering you do in this world is not going to change
                    this. It's like windsurfers crying about kitesurfing....whatcha
                    gonna do???, Stop kitesurfing? I THINK NOT! And these so
                    called "Flash Artists", as so many are calling the Flash designers
                    these days, aren't going to stop designing and molding the way of the
                    internet either, so ya best get used to it or sell your pc....OR,
                    filter it all out so you miss alot of the content that alot of sites
                    DO have to offer.

                    Pea's Out!


                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                    > WHOA !!!
                    >
                    > This response is W A Y too long!!
                    > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                    >
                    > While we are on the subject, is the picture of a girl in the ad on
                    > your message page done with Flash? It fades much too quickly!In
                    fact
                    > it would be better if it just stayed there!!
                    >
                    > Also,as far as websites go,you can't beat the flash site
                    > for "Flash"himself ,with the interactive pics,or,best of all,the
                    > Naish site with the 3D X2
                    >
                    > Ari
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                    > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                    > > > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer
                    to
                    > > load, or be
                    > > > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In
                    > fact
                    > > Flash
                    > > > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more
                    > > bandwidth
                    > > > efficient way that HTML does.
                    > >
                    > > .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be
                    it
                    > > pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by
                    using
                    > a
                    > > whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!
                    > >
                    > > > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid,
                    > but
                    > > it is not
                    > > > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web
                    designers.
                    > >
                    > > .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard
                    with
                    > > it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for one
                    > > don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just
                    leisurely
                    > > surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry,
                    it
                    > > can ge annoying.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first
                    > > time visitor,
                    > > > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in
                    > > reality, people
                    > > > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems
                    > > that are
                    > > > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can
                    also
                    > > be viewed as
                    > > > being boring.
                    > >
                    > > ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be
                    simple...real
                    > > simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors may
                    > > find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya
                    mon,
                    > > it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
                    > > forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?
                    > >
                    > > > The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
                    > > > and not the navigation.
                    > >
                    > > ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the hero,
                    > and
                    > > navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that doesn't
                    > mean
                    > > that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep
                    > navigation
                    > > simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same
                    time,
                    > > using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may make
                    it
                    > > suck slow, but not just plain and boring.
                    > >
                    > > > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
                    > > > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you
                    > off.
                    > >
                    > > ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
                    > > ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a
                    few,
                    > > and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH
                    > animations
                    > > that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a button
                    > on
                    > > it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
                    > > animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok
                    > thing
                    > > to have I think.
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information.
                    By
                    > > forcing a
                    > > > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they
                    > are
                    > > looking for, you
                    > > > will frustrate customers.
                    > >
                    > > .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but
                    > when
                    > > you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know
                    how
                    > > true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and true
                    > that
                    > > you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see
                    any
                    > > statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say that
                    > > this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It
                    > sounds
                    > > old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
                    > > internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some people
                    on
                    > > the net today would have never found their way here if they
                    hadn't
                    > > signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
                    > > people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
                    > > shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net
                    > today
                    > > for entertainment than for specific informations searching by
                    far.
                    > > In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is
                    BAD
                    > > to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what they
                    > are
                    > > looking for. It is frustrating.
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
                    > > comments
                    > > > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
                    > > experience
                    > > > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash,
                    > but
                    > > it may mean
                    > > > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
                    > > navigation
                    > > > clearer.
                    > >
                    > > .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
                    > > sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The e-
                    > > boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has
                    > Flash
                    > > right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
                    > > content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought
                    > LiteWaves
                    > > Navigation was clear enough.
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good
                    > content.
                    > > But on
                    > > > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is
                    > > unfamiliar, so
                    > > > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting,
                    > but
                    > > the price
                    > > > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss
                    out
                    > > on much of
                    > > > the content or leave the site completely.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
                    > > school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived
                    > thing,
                    > > but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers are
                    > > trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or
                    > place
                    > > my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen to
                    be
                    > > hunting for something in particular on the site.
                    > >
                    > > > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
                    > > things to
                    > > > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When
                    used
                    > in
                    > > some
                    > > > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
                    > > downloaded in
                    > > > one go instead of an individual page.
                    > >
                    > > .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
                    > > properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when
                    animation
                    > is
                    > > being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used much,
                    > and
                    > > this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to
                    zoom
                    > > in on the map on the cabarete map page....
                    > >
                    > > http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html
                    > >
                    > > The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website layout
                    > and
                    > > entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman and
                    > > others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and
                    effort,
                    > > and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's,
                    > primitive
                    > > connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you
                    are
                    > > running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all as
                    > > opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am
                    > guilty
                    > > of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I just
                    > > don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now,
                    and
                    > > two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better
                    terms.
                    > I
                    > > don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't
                    acceptable
                    > > anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos
                    and
                    > > other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to
                    access
                    > > our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that
                    they
                    > > exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
                    > > choice.
                    > >
                    > > At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i
                    AM
                    > > just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I can
                    > and
                    > > the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my site
                    > and
                    > > offer your feedback on it for me if you would.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.floridakitesurfing.com
                    > >
                    > > It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
                    > > Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH
                    > disabled
                    > > on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site as
                    > the
                    > > menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.
                    > >
                    > > I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as that
                    I
                    > > may make it better wuth future updates.
                    > >
                    > > MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work
                    for
                    > > me are...
                    > >
                    > > http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
                    > > http://www.virtualom.com
                    > >
                    > > Johnny
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                    > > > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a
                    > > shared
                    > > > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time
                    > > which
                    > > > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web
                    > page
                    > > is
                    > > > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or
                    alternative
                    > > html
                    > > > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                    > > > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash
                    disabled
                    > > most
                    > > > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                    > > showcases
                    > > > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on
                    content-
                    > -
                    > > > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what
                    > content
                    > > > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the
                    animation.
                    > If
                    > > I
                    > > > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to
                    the
                    > > > > movies ;-)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Steve T.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
                    > > > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long
                    > to
                    > > > > load.
                    > > > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and
                    > > still no
                    > > > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was
                    a
                    > > busy
                    > > > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow.
                    > Designers
                    > > use
                    > > > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not
                    > able
                    > > to
                    > > > > > access individual pages.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and
                    > > that
                    > > > > only
                    > > > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have
                    > to
                    > > play
                    > > > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Examples of good web sites:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
                    > > > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
                    > > > > > http://www.flyozone.com
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates
                    to
                    > > news
                    > > > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
                    > > bookmark
                    > > > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get
                    on
                    > > with
                    > > > > > what I want to do.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Regards
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Greg
                  • ariraptis
                    Well heres a dude with a BIG problem!! Seems he can t handle Ari even READING his posts!! Ari must really be messin wit yo mind !! As for criticising Ari s
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Well heres a dude with a BIG problem!!

                      Seems he can't handle Ari even READING his posts!!

                      Ari must really be messin'wit yo mind !!

                      As for criticising Ari's habit of referring to himself in the 3rd
                      person,well,thats rich coming from someone calling himself "The
                      Omnipotence" !!!!!

                      Obviously Johny The Omnipotence is a Paranoid Schitzophrenic with
                      Megalomaniacal tendencies!

                      Anyway,Ari likes Websites that offer something different and
                      interesting. Yes,those animations are not done with flash,but the
                      point is,they offer something distinctive for entertainment.Of course
                      Ari has a super fast cable connection,so does not have a problem with
                      them,or flash etc.

                      As for the Plebs with dial up-----well let them fly Arcs!!

                      Ari




                      --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                      > --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                      > > WHOA !!!
                      > >
                      > > This response is W A Y too long!!
                      > > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                      > >
                      >
                      > Yo ARI,
                      > GOOD, go ahead and give up reading it....whatever. You always
                      came
                      > across to me as a quitter of sorts anyway. Do me a favor their oh
                      > great one, and QUIT reading my posts entirely! I can't recall a
                      > single time you added anything to them aside from your sarcasm,
                      > criticism and smart ass ways. Your time would be much better spent
                      > practicing speaking in 3rd person.....HERE, let me try this 3rd
                      > person thing so as that maybe the right guy will see how stupid is
                      > sounds...
                      >
                      > JOHNNY dunno if JOHNNY would call the "Viewpoint Media Player" on
                      the
                      > X2 site FLASH, but then...what does JOHNNY know...aside from how to
                      > write long posts. Nothing better than being told that your machine
                      > needs to download yet ANOTHER pluging to view a kite in 3D.
                      >
                      > Flash's FLASH website is elementary at best! It has very little
                      > content, a few movies that continuosly loop once you click to load
                      > them, then they loop until you click the jump button, then they
                      call
                      > on a clip of him doing a jump and then return back to the main
                      > looping clip....now that's some serious rocket science at work
                      there
                      > for ya!
                      >
                      > JOHNNY don't have time to access these groups 20 or 30 times a day
                      > like some, so JOHNNY say's it ALL in one post the one or two times
                      a
                      > day that JOHNNY is here. Don't like em???.....Don't read em.
                      >
                      > This thread was meant for website makers and their critics.
                      > JOHNNY'S post offered insight on this subject. You don't care to
                      > read it all cuz you really have no interest in what's being said.
                      > Maybe you can't find a way to stir up any shit from within it.
                      > MAYBE, if you were into designing sights instead of designing,
                      > creating, imagining & promoting your greatness, you would have
                      found
                      > JOHNNY'S writings informative.
                      >
                      > Ok, I tried speaking in 3rd person and it felt as stupid as it
                      > sounds. So that's it on that for me.
                      >
                      > Hope THIS post isn't W A Y too long for you. Wait, what am I
                      > sayin'? I HOPE LIKE HELL this post too, is W A Y too long for you
                      as
                      > YOU I prefer to not have reading them.
                      >
                      > The bottom line is...FLASH IS the future of the internet, and all
                      the
                      > whining and filtering you do in this world is not going to change
                      > this. It's like windsurfers crying about kitesurfing....whatcha
                      > gonna do???, Stop kitesurfing? I THINK NOT! And these so
                      > called "Flash Artists", as so many are calling the Flash designers
                      > these days, aren't going to stop designing and molding the way of
                      the
                      > internet either, so ya best get used to it or sell your pc....OR,
                      > filter it all out so you miss alot of the content that alot of
                      sites
                      > DO have to offer.
                      >
                      > Pea's Out!
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                      > > WHOA !!!
                      > >
                      > > This response is W A Y too long!!
                      > > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                      > >
                      > > While we are on the subject, is the picture of a girl in the ad
                      on
                      > > your message page done with Flash? It fades much too quickly!In
                      > fact
                      > > it would be better if it just stayed there!!
                      > >
                      > > Also,as far as websites go,you can't beat the flash site
                      > > for "Flash"himself ,with the interactive pics,or,best of all,the
                      > > Naish site with the 3D X2
                      > >
                      > > Ari
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                      > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take
                      longer
                      > to
                      > > > load, or be
                      > > > > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In
                      > > fact
                      > > > Flash
                      > > > > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much
                      more
                      > > > bandwidth
                      > > > > efficient way that HTML does.
                      > > >
                      > > > .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be
                      > it
                      > > > pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by
                      > using
                      > > a
                      > > > whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!
                      > > >
                      > > > > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very
                      valid,
                      > > but
                      > > > it is not
                      > > > > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web
                      > designers.
                      > > >
                      > > > .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard
                      > with
                      > > > it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for
                      one
                      > > > don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just
                      > leisurely
                      > > > surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry,
                      > it
                      > > > can ge annoying.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a
                      first
                      > > > time visitor,
                      > > > > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work.
                      in
                      > > > reality, people
                      > > > > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation
                      systems
                      > > > that are
                      > > > > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can
                      > also
                      > > > be viewed as
                      > > > > being boring.
                      > > >
                      > > > ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be
                      > simple...real
                      > > > simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors
                      may
                      > > > find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya
                      > mon,
                      > > > it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
                      > > > forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?
                      > > >
                      > > > > The content is the hero, and this is what should be
                      interesting
                      > > > > and not the navigation.
                      > > >
                      > > > ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the
                      hero,
                      > > and
                      > > > navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that
                      doesn't
                      > > mean
                      > > > that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep
                      > > navigation
                      > > > simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same
                      > time,
                      > > > using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may
                      make
                      > it
                      > > > suck slow, but not just plain and boring.
                      > > >
                      > > > > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
                      > > > > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you
                      > > off.
                      > > >
                      > > > ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
                      > > > ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a
                      > few,
                      > > > and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH
                      > > animations
                      > > > that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a
                      button
                      > > on
                      > > > it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
                      > > > animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok
                      > > thing
                      > > > to have I think.
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific
                      information.
                      > By
                      > > > forcing a
                      > > > > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what
                      they
                      > > are
                      > > > looking for, you
                      > > > > will frustrate customers.
                      > > >
                      > > > .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but
                      > > when
                      > > > you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know
                      > how
                      > > > true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and
                      true
                      > > that
                      > > > you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see
                      > any
                      > > > statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say
                      that
                      > > > this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It
                      > > sounds
                      > > > old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
                      > > > internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some
                      people
                      > on
                      > > > the net today would have never found their way here if they
                      > hadn't
                      > > > signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
                      > > > people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
                      > > > shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net
                      > > today
                      > > > for entertainment than for specific informations searching by
                      > far.
                      > > > In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is
                      > BAD
                      > > > to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what
                      they
                      > > are
                      > > > looking for. It is frustrating.
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
                      > > > comments
                      > > > > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
                      > > > experience
                      > > > > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of
                      Flash,
                      > > but
                      > > > it may mean
                      > > > > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
                      > > > navigation
                      > > > > clearer.
                      > > >
                      > > > .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
                      > > > sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The
                      e-
                      > > > boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has
                      > > Flash
                      > > > right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
                      > > > content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought
                      > > LiteWaves
                      > > > Navigation was clear enough.
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good
                      > > content.
                      > > > But on
                      > > > > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which
                      is
                      > > > unfamiliar, so
                      > > > > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more
                      interesting,
                      > > but
                      > > > the price
                      > > > > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss
                      > out
                      > > > on much of
                      > > > > the content or leave the site completely.
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
                      > > > school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived
                      > > thing,
                      > > > but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers
                      are
                      > > > trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or
                      > > place
                      > > > my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen
                      to
                      > be
                      > > > hunting for something in particular on the site.
                      > > >
                      > > > > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
                      > > > things to
                      > > > > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When
                      > used
                      > > in
                      > > > some
                      > > > > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
                      > > > downloaded in
                      > > > > one go instead of an individual page.
                      > > >
                      > > > .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
                      > > > properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when
                      > animation
                      > > is
                      > > > being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used
                      much,
                      > > and
                      > > > this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to
                      > zoom
                      > > > in on the map on the cabarete map page....
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html
                      > > >
                      > > > The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website
                      layout
                      > > and
                      > > > entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman
                      and
                      > > > others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and
                      > effort,
                      > > > and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's,
                      > > primitive
                      > > > connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you
                      > are
                      > > > running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all
                      as
                      > > > opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am
                      > > guilty
                      > > > of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I
                      just
                      > > > don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now,
                      > and
                      > > > two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better
                      > terms.
                      > > I
                      > > > don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't
                      > acceptable
                      > > > anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos
                      > and
                      > > > other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to
                      > access
                      > > > our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that
                      > they
                      > > > exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
                      > > > choice.
                      > > >
                      > > > At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i
                      > AM
                      > > > just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I
                      can
                      > > and
                      > > > the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my
                      site
                      > > and
                      > > > offer your feedback on it for me if you would.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.floridakitesurfing.com
                      > > >
                      > > > It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
                      > > > Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH
                      > > disabled
                      > > > on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site
                      as
                      > > the
                      > > > menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.
                      > > >
                      > > > I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as
                      that
                      > I
                      > > > may make it better wuth future updates.
                      > > >
                      > > > MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work
                      > for
                      > > > me are...
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
                      > > > http://www.virtualom.com
                      > > >
                      > > > Johnny
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                      > > > > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and
                      a
                      > > > shared
                      > > > > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the
                      time
                      > > > which
                      > > > > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web
                      > > page
                      > > > is
                      > > > > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or
                      > alternative
                      > > > html
                      > > > > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                      > > > > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash
                      > disabled
                      > > > most
                      > > > > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                      > > > showcases
                      > > > > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on
                      > content-
                      > > -
                      > > > > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what
                      > > content
                      > > > > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the
                      > animation.
                      > > If
                      > > > I
                      > > > > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to
                      > the
                      > > > > > movies ;-)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Steve T.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
                      > > > > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too
                      long
                      > > to
                      > > > > > load.
                      > > > > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded
                      and
                      > > > still no
                      > > > > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site
                      was
                      > a
                      > > > busy
                      > > > > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow.
                      > > Designers
                      > > > use
                      > > > > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces.
                      Not
                      > > able
                      > > > to
                      > > > > > > access individual pages.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site
                      and
                      > > > that
                      > > > > > only
                      > > > > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You
                      have
                      > > to
                      > > > play
                      > > > > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Examples of good web sites:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
                      > > > > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
                      > > > > > > http://www.flyozone.com
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of
                      updates
                      > to
                      > > > news
                      > > > > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
                      > > > bookmark
                      > > > > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then
                      get
                      > on
                      > > > with
                      > > > > > > what I want to do.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Regards
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Greg
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