Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ksurf] Sorry dave flash sucks on yours too

Expand Messages
  • Bruce Bruce
    Hey dave sorry for the bad news I have a 56k modem Had to wait 20 secs then skiped intor waited another 20 secs for the home page to show then clicked your
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 1, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Hey dave sorry for the bad news
      I have a 56k modem
      Had to wait 20 secs then skiped intor waited another
      20 secs for the home page to show
      then clicked your gallery link and guess what had to
      wait agian
      so after 25 secs i ditched your site
      but it looked good exceopt flash is slow
      so there is some feedback
      ask your designser to ditch flash and use something
      else simple and fast i bet you will get people taying
      longer
      bruce
      --- Litewave Dave <info@...> wrote:
      > Message: 3
      > Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:29:01 -0700 (PDT)
      > From: Bruce Bruce <z1z2au@...>
      > Subject: Re: Re: Kitepower website flash sucks
      >
      > i looked at your site get rid of flash it take too
      > long to load
      > most surfers wont wait 30 secs
      > boring
      >
      >
      >
      > Hey Bruce, Is my site "suck-slow" also for you?
      > .....just interested in a little feedback.
      > --
      > Born to ride...
      >
      > Litewave Dave
      > www.litewavedesigns.com
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      >
      >
      > This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com
      > The Original - Complete new packages from only
      > $879!! FREE USA mainland shipping.
      >
      > http://www.KiteHigh.com
      >
      > 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA 808 637 0025
      > Email:support@...
      >
      > to unsubscribe send a message to
      > kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >


      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
      http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
    • gregwalshau
      Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to load. I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and still no real content. The
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 1, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to load.
        I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and still no
        real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a busy
        mess and I gave up on the first page.

        Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers use
        all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able to
        access individual pages.

        One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and that only
        rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to play
        point-lotto the first few times you access it.

        Examples of good web sites:

        http://www.e-boards.com.au/
        http://www.nova-wings.com
        http://www.flyozone.com

        I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to news
        pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to bookmark
        the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on with
        what I want to do.

        Regards

        Greg
      • vide72au
        using Flash in a website doesn t mean that it will take longer to load, or be more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact Flash allows
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 1, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to load, or be
          more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact Flash
          allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more bandwidth
          efficient way that HTML does.

          All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid, but it is not
          Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers. The common
          mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first time visitor,
          and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in reality, people
          feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems that are
          familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also be viewed as
          being boring. But in my view, navigation should be boring, and it should be
          easy to use. The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
          and not the navigation. Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
          made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you off.

          Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By forcing a
          user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they are looking for, you
          will frustrate customers.

          My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the comments
          being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the experience
          that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash, but it may mean
          toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making navigation
          clearer.

          In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good content. But on
          the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is unfamiliar, so
          you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting, but the price
          you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out on much of
          the content or leave the site completely.

          Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows things to
          download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used in some
          ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being downloaded in
          one go instead of an individual page.


          --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
          > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a shared
          > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time which
          > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web page is
          > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative html
          > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
          > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled most
          > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply showcases
          > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content--
          > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what content
          > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation. If I
          > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
          > movies ;-)
          >
          > Steve T.
          >
          >
          > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
          > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to
          > load.
          > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and still no
          > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a busy
          > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
          > >
          > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers use
          > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able to
          > > access individual pages.
          > >
          > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and that
          > only
          > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to play
          > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
          > >
          > > Examples of good web sites:
          > >
          > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
          > > http://www.nova-wings.com
          > > http://www.flyozone.com
          > >
          > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to news
          > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to bookmark
          > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on with
          > > what I want to do.
          > >
          > > Regards
          > >
          > > Greg
        • theomnipotence
          ... load, or be ... Flash ... bandwidth ... .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be it pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
            > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to
            load, or be
            > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact
            Flash
            > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more
            bandwidth
            > efficient way that HTML does.

            .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be it
            pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by using a
            whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!

            > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid, but
            it is not
            > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers.

            .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard with
            it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for one
            don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just leisurely
            surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry, it
            can ge annoying.


            > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first
            time visitor,
            > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in
            reality, people
            > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems
            that are
            > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also
            be viewed as
            > being boring.

            ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be simple...real
            simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors may
            find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya mon,
            it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
            forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?

            > The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
            > and not the navigation.

            ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the hero, and
            navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that doesn't mean
            that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep navigation
            simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same time,
            using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may make it
            suck slow, but not just plain and boring.

            > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
            > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you off.

            ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
            ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a few,
            and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH animations
            that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a button on
            it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
            animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok thing
            to have I think.

            >
            > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By
            forcing a
            > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they are
            looking for, you
            > will frustrate customers.

            .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but when
            you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know how
            true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and true that
            you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see any
            statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say that
            this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It sounds
            old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
            internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some people on
            the net today would have never found their way here if they hadn't
            signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
            people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
            shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net today
            for entertainment than for specific informations searching by far.
            In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is BAD
            to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what they are
            looking for. It is frustrating.

            >
            > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
            comments
            > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
            experience
            > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash, but
            it may mean
            > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
            navigation
            > clearer.

            .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
            sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The e-
            boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has Flash
            right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
            content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought LiteWaves
            Navigation was clear enough.

            >
            > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good content.
            But on
            > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is
            unfamiliar, so
            > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting, but
            the price
            > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out
            on much of
            > the content or leave the site completely.
            >

            ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
            school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived thing,
            but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers are
            trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or place
            my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen to be
            hunting for something in particular on the site.

            > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
            things to
            > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used in
            some
            > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
            downloaded in
            > one go instead of an individual page.

            .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
            properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when animation is
            being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used much, and
            this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to zoom
            in on the map on the cabarete map page....

            http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html

            The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website layout and
            entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman and
            others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and effort,
            and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's, primitive
            connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you are
            running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all as
            opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am guilty
            of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I just
            don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now, and
            two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better terms. I
            don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't acceptable
            anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos and
            other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to access
            our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that they
            exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
            choice.

            At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i AM
            just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I can and
            the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my site and
            offer your feedback on it for me if you would.

            http://www.floridakitesurfing.com

            It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
            Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH disabled
            on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site as the
            menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.

            I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as that I
            may make it better wuth future updates.

            MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work for
            me are...

            http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
            http://www.virtualom.com

            Johnny

            >
            >
            > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
            > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a
            shared
            > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time
            which
            > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web page
            is
            > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative
            html
            > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
            > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled
            most
            > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
            showcases
            > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content--
            > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what content
            > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation. If
            I
            > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
            > > movies ;-)
            > >
            > > Steve T.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
            > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to
            > > load.
            > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and
            still no
            > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a
            busy
            > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
            > > >
            > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers
            use
            > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able
            to
            > > > access individual pages.
            > > >
            > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and
            that
            > > only
            > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to
            play
            > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
            > > >
            > > > Examples of good web sites:
            > > >
            > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
            > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
            > > > http://www.flyozone.com
            > > >
            > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to
            news
            > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
            bookmark
            > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on
            with
            > > > what I want to do.
            > > >
            > > > Regards
            > > >
            > > > Greg
          • drsurfau
            For whatever way you are using Flash or html the customer, (or user), comes first. Designer egos, monster graphics, obtuse navigation and needless animation
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              For whatever way you are using Flash or html the customer, (or user),
              comes first.

              Designer egos, monster graphics, obtuse navigation and needless
              animation can really turn people off. And don't forget what is
              entertaining the first time is timewasting and boring every subsequent
              time. Are you going to pay your webdesigner to add a new animation
              every week? Didn't think so.

              I do a small amount of average web design, (no time to do it really
              well), and sell software and hardware for graphic artists, webdesigners
              and video producers as well as kitesurf and windsurf gear.

              If a website is to be entertaining it's got fresh every time you look
              at it. If it is designed to be informative it's got to be quick, easy
              to navigate and with a minimal number of clicks to find what you want.

              I have a website for holiday cottages we own. Initially done in a hurry
              with the bare minimum of features but with all the necessary
              information one click or a quick scroll away it has proved a hit with
              the type of clients we are catering for. ie time poor people looking to
              get away to the coast for a weekend or longer. Many is the time we've
              had the comment that they chose us as a destination as they found
              everything they really needed to know on the first page whereas on our
              competitors websites you had to try to navigate through a confusing
              graphic heavy site for about 5 - 10 minutes before you could, a) find
              out where the place was located and, b) find out how much it cost.

              Needless to say I have not altered the experiences that my clients
              value, any extra graphical information added has been via additional
              pages which are purely for photos etc. In TV and video production it is
              generally accepted that you are less than ten seconds away from losing
              your viewers, (customers). So why are people going to wait much longer
              on a computer for something interesting to happen?

              And as a Mac computer user and reseller I find that all the really
              useful Mac info sites I go to tend to be information rich with minimal
              graphics even though the Mac is the best graphic design machine.

              For a non technology example of how information is best imparted, look
              at a book. Contents at the beginning, index at the end and info in the
              middle in paragraphs. Pictures as deemed necessary. In a novel you've
              just got the middle bit only. It's been like that for a long time and
              it works well. Everyone, (I hope), knows how to use one without having
              to be shown.

              Got a broadband connection going in this month which will be cool, but
              that's no excuse for overzealous webdesigners to fill my bandwidth with
              needless crap.

              Have fun, Dave (Dr Surf Australia) COM

              --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
              > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to load, or be
              > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In fact Flash
              > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more bandwidth
              > efficient way that HTML does.
              >
              > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid, but it is not
              > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers. The common
              > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first time visitor,
              > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in reality, people
              > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems that are
              > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also be viewed as
              > being boring. But in my view, navigation should be boring, and it should be
              > easy to use. The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
              > and not the navigation. Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
              > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you off.
              >
              > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By forcing a
              > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they are looking for, you
              > will frustrate customers.
              >
              > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the comments
              > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the experience
              > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash, but it may mean
              > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making navigation
              > clearer.
              >
              > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good content. But on
              > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is unfamiliar, so
              > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting, but the price
              > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out on much of
              > the content or leave the site completely.
              >
              > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows things to
              > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used in some
              > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being downloaded in
              > one go instead of an individual page.
              >
              >
              > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
              > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a shared
              > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time which
              > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web page is
              > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative html
              > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
              > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled most
              > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply showcases
              > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content--
              > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what content
              > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation. If I
              > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
              > > movies ;-)
              > >
              > > Steve T.
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
              > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long to
              > > load.
              > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and still no
              > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a busy
              > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
              > > >
              > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow. Designers use
              > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not able to
              > > > access individual pages.
              > > >
              > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and that
              > > only
              > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have to play
              > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
              > > >
              > > > Examples of good web sites:
              > > >
              > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
              > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
              > > > http://www.flyozone.com
              > > >
              > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to news
              > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to bookmark
              > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on with
              > > > what I want to do.
              > > >
              > > > Regards
              > > >
              > > > Greg
            • Guy Davis
              ... Agreed. I don t mind Flash but I do think it is overused. The thing that kills me is the stupid use of browser-specific Javascript to try to determine
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                On Tue, 2002-07-02 at 07:17, drsurfau wrote:
                > For whatever way you are using Flash or html the customer, (or user),
                > comes first.

                Agreed. I don't mind Flash but I do think it is overused. The thing
                that kills me is the stupid use of browser-specific Javascript to try to
                determine whether a browser has Flash installed.

                For example, the Kiteboarding Magazine site
                (http://www.kiteboardingmag.com) won't let me view it on my machine.
                (Redhat Linux with Galeon browser) It simply tells me to go download
                Flash 5 even though I already have it installed and working fine for a
                number of other sites. This Windows-specific programming is just
                brain-dead.

                Now I'm a programmer by trade, not a businessman, but it doesn't seem
                like very good idea to tell valid users to get stuffed. How well would
                a car dealership do if it only sold cars to people under 6 feet tall,
                excluding tall people for no good reason?

                --
                Guy Davis http://www.guydavis.ca
                PGP: D2E2 76D4 0C9C 5D99 42AA EB6B B9C2 68CA 2DC7 F2E4
              • theflyingtinman
                I understand that ... but the fact remains that on MOST Flash sites that I ve encountered in my browsing I ve gotten an overriding feeling that the message is
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  I understand that ... but the fact remains that on MOST Flash sites
                  that I've encountered in my browsing I've gotten an overriding
                  feeling that the message is not so much "Look what we have to say",
                  but rather "Look what I can do". I know it's the "artists" that are
                  to blame and not the tools, but by their very nature most "artists"
                  are more concerned with what people think of their presentation than
                  with how well they convey the message. Before Flash came
                  along "artists" tried to acheive the same effect--and made the same
                  mistakes--in plain old HTML, (I also disable all but the first frame
                  of GIF animations) but the very restrictive nature of early versions
                  of HTML meant that all but the most skillful artists had a real hard
                  time making a page where the presentation was so eyecatching that
                  people would email each other links to it say "Check out this cool
                  site!" even though it may have had inferior content and/or
                  unintuitive navigation.

                  So until Flash is more widely used by people with at least as much of
                  a handle on business presentation as they have on cooking up a batch
                  of eye-candy then I'll keep filtering it out.

                  Steve T.


                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                  > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer
                  > to load, or be more complicated to navigate that a website
                  > built in HTML. In fact Flash allows certain types of content
                  > to be delivered in a much more bandwidth efficient way that HTML
                  > does.


                  > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                  >> My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and
                  >> a shared 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all
                  >> the time which kills Flash animations before they are downloaded.
                  >> If a web page is presented with Flash only (and no html nav
                  >> links or alternative html content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                  >> Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled
                  >> most of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                  >> showcases for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light
                  >> on content-- which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and
                  >> what content they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the
                  >> animation. If I want to see interesting moving pictures I watch
                  >> TV or go to the movies ;-)
                  >>
                  >> Steve T.
                • ariraptis
                  WHOA !!! This response is W A Y too long!! Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it ! While we are on the subject, is the picture of a
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    WHOA !!!

                    This response is W A Y too long!!
                    Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !

                    While we are on the subject, is the picture of a girl in the ad on
                    your message page done with Flash? It fades much too quickly!In fact
                    it would be better if it just stayed there!!

                    Also,as far as websites go,you can't beat the flash site
                    for "Flash"himself ,with the interactive pics,or,best of all,the
                    Naish site with the 3D X2

                    Ari






                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                    > --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                    > > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer to
                    > load, or be
                    > > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In
                    fact
                    > Flash
                    > > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more
                    > bandwidth
                    > > efficient way that HTML does.
                    >
                    > .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be it
                    > pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by using
                    a
                    > whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!
                    >
                    > > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid,
                    but
                    > it is not
                    > > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web designers.
                    >
                    > .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard with
                    > it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for one
                    > don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just leisurely
                    > surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry, it
                    > can ge annoying.
                    >
                    >
                    > > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first
                    > time visitor,
                    > > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in
                    > reality, people
                    > > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems
                    > that are
                    > > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can also
                    > be viewed as
                    > > being boring.
                    >
                    > ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be simple...real
                    > simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors may
                    > find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya mon,
                    > it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
                    > forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?
                    >
                    > > The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
                    > > and not the navigation.
                    >
                    > ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the hero,
                    and
                    > navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that doesn't
                    mean
                    > that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep
                    navigation
                    > simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same time,
                    > using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may make it
                    > suck slow, but not just plain and boring.
                    >
                    > > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
                    > > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you
                    off.
                    >
                    > ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
                    > ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a few,
                    > and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH
                    animations
                    > that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a button
                    on
                    > it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
                    > animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok
                    thing
                    > to have I think.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information. By
                    > forcing a
                    > > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they
                    are
                    > looking for, you
                    > > will frustrate customers.
                    >
                    > .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but
                    when
                    > you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know how
                    > true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and true
                    that
                    > you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see any
                    > statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say that
                    > this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It
                    sounds
                    > old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
                    > internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some people on
                    > the net today would have never found their way here if they hadn't
                    > signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
                    > people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
                    > shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net
                    today
                    > for entertainment than for specific informations searching by far.
                    > In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is BAD
                    > to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what they
                    are
                    > looking for. It is frustrating.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
                    > comments
                    > > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
                    > experience
                    > > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash,
                    but
                    > it may mean
                    > > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
                    > navigation
                    > > clearer.
                    >
                    > .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
                    > sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The e-
                    > boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has
                    Flash
                    > right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
                    > content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought
                    LiteWaves
                    > Navigation was clear enough.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good
                    content.
                    > But on
                    > > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is
                    > unfamiliar, so
                    > > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting,
                    but
                    > the price
                    > > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss out
                    > on much of
                    > > the content or leave the site completely.
                    > >
                    >
                    > ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
                    > school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived
                    thing,
                    > but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers are
                    > trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or
                    place
                    > my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen to be
                    > hunting for something in particular on the site.
                    >
                    > > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
                    > things to
                    > > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When used
                    in
                    > some
                    > > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
                    > downloaded in
                    > > one go instead of an individual page.
                    >
                    > .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
                    > properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when animation
                    is
                    > being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used much,
                    and
                    > this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to zoom
                    > in on the map on the cabarete map page....
                    >
                    > http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html
                    >
                    > The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website layout
                    and
                    > entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman and
                    > others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and effort,
                    > and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's,
                    primitive
                    > connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you are
                    > running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all as
                    > opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am
                    guilty
                    > of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I just
                    > don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now, and
                    > two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better terms.
                    I
                    > don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't acceptable
                    > anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos and
                    > other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to access
                    > our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that they
                    > exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
                    > choice.
                    >
                    > At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i AM
                    > just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I can
                    and
                    > the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my site
                    and
                    > offer your feedback on it for me if you would.
                    >
                    > http://www.floridakitesurfing.com
                    >
                    > It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
                    > Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH
                    disabled
                    > on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site as
                    the
                    > menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.
                    >
                    > I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as that I
                    > may make it better wuth future updates.
                    >
                    > MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work for
                    > me are...
                    >
                    > http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
                    > http://www.virtualom.com
                    >
                    > Johnny
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                    > > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a
                    > shared
                    > > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time
                    > which
                    > > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web
                    page
                    > is
                    > > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or alternative
                    > html
                    > > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                    > > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash disabled
                    > most
                    > > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                    > showcases
                    > > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on content-
                    -
                    > > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what
                    content
                    > > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the animation.
                    If
                    > I
                    > > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to the
                    > > > movies ;-)
                    > > >
                    > > > Steve T.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
                    > > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long
                    to
                    > > > load.
                    > > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and
                    > still no
                    > > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was a
                    > busy
                    > > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow.
                    Designers
                    > use
                    > > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not
                    able
                    > to
                    > > > > access individual pages.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and
                    > that
                    > > > only
                    > > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have
                    to
                    > play
                    > > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Examples of good web sites:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
                    > > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
                    > > > > http://www.flyozone.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates to
                    > news
                    > > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
                    > bookmark
                    > > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get on
                    > with
                    > > > > what I want to do.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Regards
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Greg
                  • theomnipotence
                    ... Yo ARI, GOOD, go ahead and give up reading it....whatever. You always came across to me as a quitter of sorts anyway. Do me a favor their oh great one,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                      > WHOA !!!
                      >
                      > This response is W A Y too long!!
                      > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                      >

                      Yo ARI,
                      GOOD, go ahead and give up reading it....whatever. You always came
                      across to me as a quitter of sorts anyway. Do me a favor their oh
                      great one, and QUIT reading my posts entirely! I can't recall a
                      single time you added anything to them aside from your sarcasm,
                      criticism and smart ass ways. Your time would be much better spent
                      practicing speaking in 3rd person.....HERE, let me try this 3rd
                      person thing so as that maybe the right guy will see how stupid is
                      sounds...

                      JOHNNY dunno if JOHNNY would call the "Viewpoint Media Player" on the
                      X2 site FLASH, but then...what does JOHNNY know...aside from how to
                      write long posts. Nothing better than being told that your machine
                      needs to download yet ANOTHER pluging to view a kite in 3D.

                      Flash's FLASH website is elementary at best! It has very little
                      content, a few movies that continuosly loop once you click to load
                      them, then they loop until you click the jump button, then they call
                      on a clip of him doing a jump and then return back to the main
                      looping clip....now that's some serious rocket science at work there
                      for ya!

                      JOHNNY don't have time to access these groups 20 or 30 times a day
                      like some, so JOHNNY say's it ALL in one post the one or two times a
                      day that JOHNNY is here. Don't like em???.....Don't read em.

                      This thread was meant for website makers and their critics.
                      JOHNNY'S post offered insight on this subject. You don't care to
                      read it all cuz you really have no interest in what's being said.
                      Maybe you can't find a way to stir up any shit from within it.
                      MAYBE, if you were into designing sights instead of designing,
                      creating, imagining & promoting your greatness, you would have found
                      JOHNNY'S writings informative.

                      Ok, I tried speaking in 3rd person and it felt as stupid as it
                      sounds. So that's it on that for me.

                      Hope THIS post isn't W A Y too long for you. Wait, what am I
                      sayin'? I HOPE LIKE HELL this post too, is W A Y too long for you as
                      YOU I prefer to not have reading them.

                      The bottom line is...FLASH IS the future of the internet, and all the
                      whining and filtering you do in this world is not going to change
                      this. It's like windsurfers crying about kitesurfing....whatcha
                      gonna do???, Stop kitesurfing? I THINK NOT! And these so
                      called "Flash Artists", as so many are calling the Flash designers
                      these days, aren't going to stop designing and molding the way of the
                      internet either, so ya best get used to it or sell your pc....OR,
                      filter it all out so you miss alot of the content that alot of sites
                      DO have to offer.

                      Pea's Out!


                      --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                      > WHOA !!!
                      >
                      > This response is W A Y too long!!
                      > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                      >
                      > While we are on the subject, is the picture of a girl in the ad on
                      > your message page done with Flash? It fades much too quickly!In
                      fact
                      > it would be better if it just stayed there!!
                      >
                      > Also,as far as websites go,you can't beat the flash site
                      > for "Flash"himself ,with the interactive pics,or,best of all,the
                      > Naish site with the 3D X2
                      >
                      > Ari
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                      > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                      > > > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take longer
                      to
                      > > load, or be
                      > > > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In
                      > fact
                      > > Flash
                      > > > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much more
                      > > bandwidth
                      > > > efficient way that HTML does.
                      > >
                      > > .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be
                      it
                      > > pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by
                      using
                      > a
                      > > whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!
                      > >
                      > > > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very valid,
                      > but
                      > > it is not
                      > > > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web
                      designers.
                      > >
                      > > .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard
                      with
                      > > it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for one
                      > > don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just
                      leisurely
                      > > surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry,
                      it
                      > > can ge annoying.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a first
                      > > time visitor,
                      > > > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work. in
                      > > reality, people
                      > > > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation systems
                      > > that are
                      > > > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can
                      also
                      > > be viewed as
                      > > > being boring.
                      > >
                      > > ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be
                      simple...real
                      > > simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors may
                      > > find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya
                      mon,
                      > > it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
                      > > forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?
                      > >
                      > > > The content is the hero, and this is what should be interesting
                      > > > and not the navigation.
                      > >
                      > > ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the hero,
                      > and
                      > > navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that doesn't
                      > mean
                      > > that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep
                      > navigation
                      > > simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same
                      time,
                      > > using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may make
                      it
                      > > suck slow, but not just plain and boring.
                      > >
                      > > > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
                      > > > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you
                      > off.
                      > >
                      > > ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
                      > > ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a
                      few,
                      > > and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH
                      > animations
                      > > that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a button
                      > on
                      > > it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
                      > > animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok
                      > thing
                      > > to have I think.
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific information.
                      By
                      > > forcing a
                      > > > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what they
                      > are
                      > > looking for, you
                      > > > will frustrate customers.
                      > >
                      > > .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but
                      > when
                      > > you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know
                      how
                      > > true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and true
                      > that
                      > > you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see
                      any
                      > > statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say that
                      > > this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It
                      > sounds
                      > > old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
                      > > internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some people
                      on
                      > > the net today would have never found their way here if they
                      hadn't
                      > > signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
                      > > people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
                      > > shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net
                      > today
                      > > for entertainment than for specific informations searching by
                      far.
                      > > In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is
                      BAD
                      > > to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what they
                      > are
                      > > looking for. It is frustrating.
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
                      > > comments
                      > > > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
                      > > experience
                      > > > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of Flash,
                      > but
                      > > it may mean
                      > > > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
                      > > navigation
                      > > > clearer.
                      > >
                      > > .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
                      > > sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The e-
                      > > boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has
                      > Flash
                      > > right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
                      > > content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought
                      > LiteWaves
                      > > Navigation was clear enough.
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good
                      > content.
                      > > But on
                      > > > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which is
                      > > unfamiliar, so
                      > > > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more interesting,
                      > but
                      > > the price
                      > > > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss
                      out
                      > > on much of
                      > > > the content or leave the site completely.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
                      > > school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived
                      > thing,
                      > > but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers are
                      > > trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or
                      > place
                      > > my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen to
                      be
                      > > hunting for something in particular on the site.
                      > >
                      > > > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
                      > > things to
                      > > > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When
                      used
                      > in
                      > > some
                      > > > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
                      > > downloaded in
                      > > > one go instead of an individual page.
                      > >
                      > > .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
                      > > properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when
                      animation
                      > is
                      > > being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used much,
                      > and
                      > > this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to
                      zoom
                      > > in on the map on the cabarete map page....
                      > >
                      > > http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html
                      > >
                      > > The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website layout
                      > and
                      > > entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman and
                      > > others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and
                      effort,
                      > > and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's,
                      > primitive
                      > > connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you
                      are
                      > > running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all as
                      > > opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am
                      > guilty
                      > > of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I just
                      > > don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now,
                      and
                      > > two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better
                      terms.
                      > I
                      > > don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't
                      acceptable
                      > > anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos
                      and
                      > > other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to
                      access
                      > > our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that
                      they
                      > > exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
                      > > choice.
                      > >
                      > > At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i
                      AM
                      > > just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I can
                      > and
                      > > the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my site
                      > and
                      > > offer your feedback on it for me if you would.
                      > >
                      > > http://www.floridakitesurfing.com
                      > >
                      > > It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
                      > > Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH
                      > disabled
                      > > on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site as
                      > the
                      > > menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.
                      > >
                      > > I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as that
                      I
                      > > may make it better wuth future updates.
                      > >
                      > > MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work
                      for
                      > > me are...
                      > >
                      > > http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
                      > > http://www.virtualom.com
                      > >
                      > > Johnny
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                      > > > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and a
                      > > shared
                      > > > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the time
                      > > which
                      > > > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web
                      > page
                      > > is
                      > > > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or
                      alternative
                      > > html
                      > > > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                      > > > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash
                      disabled
                      > > most
                      > > > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                      > > showcases
                      > > > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on
                      content-
                      > -
                      > > > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what
                      > content
                      > > > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the
                      animation.
                      > If
                      > > I
                      > > > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to
                      the
                      > > > > movies ;-)
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Steve T.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
                      > > > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too long
                      > to
                      > > > > load.
                      > > > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded and
                      > > still no
                      > > > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site was
                      a
                      > > busy
                      > > > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow.
                      > Designers
                      > > use
                      > > > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces. Not
                      > able
                      > > to
                      > > > > > access individual pages.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site and
                      > > that
                      > > > > only
                      > > > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You have
                      > to
                      > > play
                      > > > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Examples of good web sites:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
                      > > > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
                      > > > > > http://www.flyozone.com
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of updates
                      to
                      > > news
                      > > > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
                      > > bookmark
                      > > > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then get
                      on
                      > > with
                      > > > > > what I want to do.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Regards
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Greg
                    • ariraptis
                      Well heres a dude with a BIG problem!! Seems he can t handle Ari even READING his posts!! Ari must really be messin wit yo mind !! As for criticising Ari s
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 2, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Well heres a dude with a BIG problem!!

                        Seems he can't handle Ari even READING his posts!!

                        Ari must really be messin'wit yo mind !!

                        As for criticising Ari's habit of referring to himself in the 3rd
                        person,well,thats rich coming from someone calling himself "The
                        Omnipotence" !!!!!

                        Obviously Johny The Omnipotence is a Paranoid Schitzophrenic with
                        Megalomaniacal tendencies!

                        Anyway,Ari likes Websites that offer something different and
                        interesting. Yes,those animations are not done with flash,but the
                        point is,they offer something distinctive for entertainment.Of course
                        Ari has a super fast cable connection,so does not have a problem with
                        them,or flash etc.

                        As for the Plebs with dial up-----well let them fly Arcs!!

                        Ari




                        --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                        > > WHOA !!!
                        > >
                        > > This response is W A Y too long!!
                        > > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                        > >
                        >
                        > Yo ARI,
                        > GOOD, go ahead and give up reading it....whatever. You always
                        came
                        > across to me as a quitter of sorts anyway. Do me a favor their oh
                        > great one, and QUIT reading my posts entirely! I can't recall a
                        > single time you added anything to them aside from your sarcasm,
                        > criticism and smart ass ways. Your time would be much better spent
                        > practicing speaking in 3rd person.....HERE, let me try this 3rd
                        > person thing so as that maybe the right guy will see how stupid is
                        > sounds...
                        >
                        > JOHNNY dunno if JOHNNY would call the "Viewpoint Media Player" on
                        the
                        > X2 site FLASH, but then...what does JOHNNY know...aside from how to
                        > write long posts. Nothing better than being told that your machine
                        > needs to download yet ANOTHER pluging to view a kite in 3D.
                        >
                        > Flash's FLASH website is elementary at best! It has very little
                        > content, a few movies that continuosly loop once you click to load
                        > them, then they loop until you click the jump button, then they
                        call
                        > on a clip of him doing a jump and then return back to the main
                        > looping clip....now that's some serious rocket science at work
                        there
                        > for ya!
                        >
                        > JOHNNY don't have time to access these groups 20 or 30 times a day
                        > like some, so JOHNNY say's it ALL in one post the one or two times
                        a
                        > day that JOHNNY is here. Don't like em???.....Don't read em.
                        >
                        > This thread was meant for website makers and their critics.
                        > JOHNNY'S post offered insight on this subject. You don't care to
                        > read it all cuz you really have no interest in what's being said.
                        > Maybe you can't find a way to stir up any shit from within it.
                        > MAYBE, if you were into designing sights instead of designing,
                        > creating, imagining & promoting your greatness, you would have
                        found
                        > JOHNNY'S writings informative.
                        >
                        > Ok, I tried speaking in 3rd person and it felt as stupid as it
                        > sounds. So that's it on that for me.
                        >
                        > Hope THIS post isn't W A Y too long for you. Wait, what am I
                        > sayin'? I HOPE LIKE HELL this post too, is W A Y too long for you
                        as
                        > YOU I prefer to not have reading them.
                        >
                        > The bottom line is...FLASH IS the future of the internet, and all
                        the
                        > whining and filtering you do in this world is not going to change
                        > this. It's like windsurfers crying about kitesurfing....whatcha
                        > gonna do???, Stop kitesurfing? I THINK NOT! And these so
                        > called "Flash Artists", as so many are calling the Flash designers
                        > these days, aren't going to stop designing and molding the way of
                        the
                        > internet either, so ya best get used to it or sell your pc....OR,
                        > filter it all out so you miss alot of the content that alot of
                        sites
                        > DO have to offer.
                        >
                        > Pea's Out!
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "ariraptis" <ariraptis@y...> wrote:
                        > > WHOA !!!
                        > >
                        > > This response is W A Y too long!!
                        > > Just like a Flash intensive site,I had to give up reading it !
                        > >
                        > > While we are on the subject, is the picture of a girl in the ad
                        on
                        > > your message page done with Flash? It fades much too quickly!In
                        > fact
                        > > it would be better if it just stayed there!!
                        > >
                        > > Also,as far as websites go,you can't beat the flash site
                        > > for "Flash"himself ,with the interactive pics,or,best of all,the
                        > > Naish site with the 3D X2
                        > >
                        > > Ari
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theomnipotence" <johnny@t...> wrote:
                        > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "vide72au" <vide72au@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > using Flash in a website doesn't mean that it will take
                        longer
                        > to
                        > > > load, or be
                        > > > > more complicated to navigate that a website built in HTML. In
                        > > fact
                        > > > Flash
                        > > > > allows certain types of content to be delivered in a much
                        more
                        > > > bandwidth
                        > > > > efficient way that HTML does.
                        > > >
                        > > > .........VERY true. You can load in Flash WAY more content, be
                        > it
                        > > > pics or fliks, motion or still, flashy or dull or whatnot, by
                        > using
                        > > a
                        > > > whole lot less bandwidth than with HTML. FLASH RULES!
                        > > >
                        > > > > All the negative comments about Flash use are still very
                        valid,
                        > > but
                        > > > it is not
                        > > > > Flash which is at fault, but the way it is used by web
                        > designers.
                        > > >
                        > > > .........AMEN brotha! Flash Rules! Some guys do go overboard
                        > with
                        > > > it, and I know alot of people prolly don't like it, but I for
                        one
                        > > > don't mind clicking around a Flash creation IF I am just
                        > leisurely
                        > > > surfing the net, but when and if I am after content in a hurry,
                        > it
                        > > > can ge annoying.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > mistakes when using Flash is to assume that everyone is a
                        first
                        > > > time visitor,
                        > > > > and everyone can just 'guess' the way in which things work.
                        in
                        > > > reality, people
                        > > > > feel comfortable viewing a website that uses navigation
                        systems
                        > > > that are
                        > > > > familiar. The trade of though is that familar navigation can
                        > also
                        > > > be viewed as
                        > > > > being boring.
                        > > >
                        > > > ...........Agreed. I too think navigation should be
                        > simple...real
                        > > > simple and along the lines of traditional so as that visitors
                        may
                        > > > find what they are looking for quicker and leave happier. Ya
                        > mon,
                        > > > it's sad but true webmasters...the people DO leave...can't stay
                        > > > forever, but the difference is....will they be back or not?
                        > > >
                        > > > > The content is the hero, and this is what should be
                        interesting
                        > > > > and not the navigation.
                        > > >
                        > > > ..........WELLLLL, I agree the content should be and IS the
                        hero,
                        > > and
                        > > > navigation should be somewhat more traditional, but that
                        doesn't
                        > > mean
                        > > > that navigation has to be boring. I have ATTEMPED to keep
                        > > navigation
                        > > > simple and traditional at Tampabaykitesurf, while at the same
                        > time,
                        > > > using SOME Flash to keep it from being plain boring.....may
                        make
                        > it
                        > > > suck slow, but not just plain and boring.
                        > > >
                        > > > > Also, once you have seen a Flash animation, it has
                        > > > > made it's impact and the 2nd time you see it it will piss you
                        > > off.
                        > > >
                        > > > ..........What's cool about Flash is that the designer has the
                        > > > ability to do WHATEVER he wants to do with it. I have seen a
                        > few,
                        > > > and I would like to be seeing it more in the future, FLASH
                        > > animations
                        > > > that have control buttons on them. MOST noisy FLASH has a
                        button
                        > > on
                        > > > it to stop the noise, but you don't see flashy and moving FLASH
                        > > > animation that have on them a STOP button...this would be an ok
                        > > thing
                        > > > to have I think.
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Most people use the web as a tool to get specific
                        information.
                        > By
                        > > > forcing a
                        > > > > user to sit through a whole lot of stuff that is not what
                        they
                        > > are
                        > > > looking for, you
                        > > > > will frustrate customers.
                        > > >
                        > > > .......Dunno if this is entirely true. MOST of it is true, but
                        > > when
                        > > > you say "most people use the web as a tool.....", I don't know
                        > how
                        > > > true this is. It's true that it's what YOU use it for, and
                        true
                        > > that
                        > > > you think that most people use it for the same, but I don't see
                        > any
                        > > > statistics that support this. 6 or 8 years ago, I would say
                        that
                        > > > this part is true, but today, I just don't agree with it. It
                        > > sounds
                        > > > old school to even say. SO many people today are lured to the
                        > > > internet for simple entertianment that it's unreal. Some
                        people
                        > on
                        > > > the net today would have never found their way here if they
                        > hadn't
                        > > > signed on to play some online game with their buddies. ALOT of
                        > > > people come to gamble. Some come to watch videos and listen to
                        > > > shows. Other surf porn. I'd bet that MORE people use the net
                        > > today
                        > > > for entertainment than for specific informations searching by
                        > far.
                        > > > In ANY case though, I AGREE with you whole heartedly that it is
                        > BAD
                        > > > to force a user to set through anything, even if it IS what
                        they
                        > > are
                        > > > looking for. It is frustrating.
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > My advice to Steve Mc C and Litewave Dave is to listen to the
                        > > > comments
                        > > > > being made, and use them to make subtle improvements to the
                        > > > experience
                        > > > > that your sites offer. This doesn't mean getting rid of
                        Flash,
                        > > but
                        > > > it may mean
                        > > > > toning down gratuitous self indulgent animation, and making
                        > > > navigation
                        > > > > clearer.
                        > > >
                        > > > .......Well....some guys like HTML sites, some guys like FLASH
                        > > > sites. I like to mix them together. Most good sites do. The
                        e-
                        > > > boards site mentioned earlier as an example of a good site has
                        > > Flash
                        > > > right on it's first page. Flash can do things for you and your
                        > > > content that you just can't do with plain HTML. I thought
                        > > LiteWaves
                        > > > Navigation was clear enough.
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In my view, Steves Kitepower site looks good, and has good
                        > > content.
                        > > > But on
                        > > > > the downside it uses nagivation in areas (the icons) which
                        is
                        > > > unfamiliar, so
                        > > > > you have to learn how it works. This makes it more
                        interesting,
                        > > but
                        > > > the price
                        > > > > you pay is that many people will get frustrated and will miss
                        > out
                        > > > on much of
                        > > > > the content or leave the site completely.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ........Ya, this navigation system used on his site is very new
                        > > > school, and I don't know if it is here to say or a short lived
                        > > thing,
                        > > > but it's definately a trend that alot of top Flash designers
                        are
                        > > > trying to use. I personally don't care to have to click on or
                        > > place
                        > > > my mouse over icons to find out what they lead to if I happen
                        to
                        > be
                        > > > hunting for something in particular on the site.
                        > > >
                        > > > > Anyway - don't blame Flash. Flash is a great tool that allows
                        > > > things to
                        > > > > download fast - but it needs to be used appropriately. When
                        > used
                        > > in
                        > > > some
                        > > > > ways in can appear slow, becasue the whole website is being
                        > > > downloaded in
                        > > > > one go instead of an individual page.
                        > > >
                        > > > .........FLASH is GREAT! It is faster than html when utilzed
                        > > > properly. The file sizes are smaller in comparison when
                        > animation
                        > > is
                        > > > being used. It has a ZOOM option, that you NEVER see used
                        much,
                        > > and
                        > > > this I don't understand. A shining example of this is used to
                        > zoom
                        > > > in on the map on the cabarete map page....
                        > > >
                        > > > http://www.cabaretekiteboard2002.com/maps.html
                        > > >
                        > > > The answer for guy's wishing to use Flash as their website
                        layout
                        > > and
                        > > > entire website in general like Litewave,Kitepower,Lou Wainman
                        and
                        > > > others is to offer an html version. It takes more work and
                        > effort,
                        > > > and forces you to cater to the people with primitive pc's,
                        > > primitive
                        > > > connections and primtive ways of thinking in general but if you
                        > are
                        > > > running a business site, it's best to try to cater to them all
                        as
                        > > > opposed to just the ones that are up to date. I personally am
                        > > guilty
                        > > > of not 100% catering to the lower end pc users...one, cuz I
                        just
                        > > > don't have the time to keep up 2 versions of a site right now,
                        > and
                        > > > two, I feel that they are a dieing breed for lack of better
                        > terms.
                        > > I
                        > > > don't think it will be too long before dialup just isn't
                        > acceptable
                        > > > anymore....but, I do try to make smaller versions of our videos
                        > and
                        > > > other media for the dialup users that ARE patient enough to
                        > access
                        > > > our site. I don't rule them out entirely, I do recognize that
                        > they
                        > > > exist, and alot of times, they aren't on dialup out of personal
                        > > > choice.
                        > > >
                        > > > At this point, I'm afraid to ask for feedback on my site, cuz i
                        > AM
                        > > > just a rookie designer at best, trying to make do with what I
                        can
                        > > and
                        > > > the little that I know, but I DO invite you guys to visit my
                        site
                        > > and
                        > > > offer your feedback on it for me if you would.
                        > > >
                        > > > http://www.floridakitesurfing.com
                        > > >
                        > > > It has a bit of FLASH on it, but isn't entirely done in FLASH.
                        > > > Problem is tho, if you are one of those people who has FLASH
                        > > disabled
                        > > > on your pc, I don't think you'll be able to navigate the site
                        as
                        > > the
                        > > > menus buttons are done in Flash...which I am working to redo.
                        > > >
                        > > > I would like to hear what everyone has to say about it so as
                        that
                        > I
                        > > > may make it better wuth future updates.
                        > > >
                        > > > MY idea of a couple sites done entirely in Flash and still work
                        > for
                        > > > me are...
                        > > >
                        > > > http://www.kiteboardingmag.com
                        > > > http://www.virtualom.com
                        > > >
                        > > > Johnny
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "theflyingtinman" <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                        > > > > > My web browsing time is split between broadband (home) and
                        a
                        > > > shared
                        > > > > > 28.8 dial-up (office) At work I use a web filter all the
                        time
                        > > > which
                        > > > > > kills Flash animations before they are downloaded. If a web
                        > > page
                        > > > is
                        > > > > > presented with Flash only (and no html nav links or
                        > alternative
                        > > > html
                        > > > > > content) I'm outa there before I'm in.
                        > > > > > Even when I'm on my broadband connection I keep Flash
                        > disabled
                        > > > most
                        > > > > > of the time. I find that most Flash animations are simply
                        > > > showcases
                        > > > > > for web designers artistic egos and unbearably light on
                        > content-
                        > > -
                        > > > > > which is what I'm usually browsing the web for--and what
                        > > content
                        > > > > > they do have is hard to concentrate on amid all the
                        > animation.
                        > > If
                        > > > I
                        > > > > > want to see interesting moving pictures I watch TV or go to
                        > the
                        > > > > > movies ;-)
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Steve T.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
                        > > > > > > Sorry Mr Litewave but your flash site takes waaaay too
                        long
                        > > to
                        > > > > > load.
                        > > > > > > I got board and left by the time the third page loaded
                        and
                        > > > still no
                        > > > > > > real content. The music was quite nice. Your html site
                        was
                        > a
                        > > > busy
                        > > > > > > mess and I gave up on the first page.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Thinks I don't like about Flash web sites. Too slow.
                        > > Designers
                        > > > use
                        > > > > > > all the Flash stuff to design messy, wanky interfaces.
                        Not
                        > > able
                        > > > to
                        > > > > > > access individual pages.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > One of the better Flash web sites is the Kitepower site
                        and
                        > > > that
                        > > > > > only
                        > > > > > > rates a fair to poor compared to a good html site. You
                        have
                        > > to
                        > > > play
                        > > > > > > point-lotto the first few times you access it.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Examples of good web sites:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > http://www.e-boards.com.au/
                        > > > > > > http://www.nova-wings.com
                        > > > > > > http://www.flyozone.com
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I want quick intuitive access to pages and lots of
                        updates
                        > to
                        > > > news
                        > > > > > > pages so I have a reason to visit the web site. I want to
                        > > > bookmark
                        > > > > > > the interesting pages so I can quickly check them then
                        get
                        > on
                        > > > with
                        > > > > > > what I want to do.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Regards
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Greg
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.