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Re: Remove the Leash

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  • kiteboard2000
    ... This still endangers anybody unlucky enough to be downwind of you on the water, & is also not the best for onshore conditions (endangering those on shore).
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 1, 2002
      --- In kitesurf@y..., "igsmith" <igsmith@y...> wrote:

      > I snap shackle and have a removable leash. ...
      > I always launch and land with the safety connected (because I will
      > not be spinning on land!!) and once I am safely away from shore, I
      > unhook it and snap it to my harness.

      This still endangers anybody unlucky enough to be downwind of you on
      the water, & is also not the best for onshore conditions (endangering
      those on shore). If you want nothing on your wrist, nothing that
      won't spin, nothing that gets in the way, nothing that you have to
      try to grab to retain your kite, but something to always keep you,
      your kite, & other people safe when you have to release it, check out
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/
      scroll down & click "Mel's Stuff" then "MelMods", then "Mel's
      Mounting Methods" & there's a photo of a spinning leash system.

      It's shown on a "line rlease" shackle (Wichard 2673) but also works
      with any "trigger" shackle (like a Tylaska T-8).

      If you don't want to pay $40 for a bungied SlingShot leash (or make
      your own) the plain black leash line shown simply droops down a
      little below the bar, & doesn't get in the way of a harness line
      (just feed the leash through the harness line's loop, if you use one).

      If you already have a shackle which doesn't have the "extra" fixed
      opening (like the Wichard or Tylaska) then you can just attach a $12
      plain swivel from West Marine to the spreader, and attach the leash &
      shackle to the other side of the swivel. IF your shackle has a
      welded release ring, some riders attach the leash to it (or replace
      it with a loop of stainless sailboat rigging cable, before attaching
      the leash).

      Mel
    • peter_frank_dk
      Thats right - be sure to have some safety release on the safety leash (am I drunk ? - it sounds funny - try to say it fast...) A simple snap shackle into a
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 1, 2002
        Thats right - be sure to have some safety release on the safety leash
        (am I drunk ? - it sounds funny - try to say it fast...)
        A simple snap shackle into a ring in a normal safety release system
        on your trapeze (I think all brands are making them now).
        Easy and effective !

        :-) Peter

        --- In kitesurf@y..., "igsmith" <igsmith@y...> wrote:
        > I snap shackle and have a removable leash. I use the airush bars,
        and
        > instead of having the wrist leash connected, I end the line in an O
        > ring.
        >
        > The system is very simple. I have a DaKine XT Seat Harness and
        > attached a small O ring to the harness (through the straps). To
        this,
        > I have a small snap shackle. Connected to the snap shackle is a
        small
        > stretch of q power line, ending in a small carabiner. The carabiner
        > attaches to the "grab leash" on the airush bar (this is a sliding
        bar
        > safety system).
        >
        > I always launch and land with the safety connected (because I will
        > not be spinning on land!!) and once I am safely away from shore, I
        > unhook it and snap it to my harness. And, before I come in, I do
        the
        > same. It takes about 2 seconds to hook and unhook. You end up with
        a
        > loop of q power attached to you, but it never seems to get in the
        way.
        >
        > I do think you need a system to release from the safety, because it
        > can happen that lines get all screwed up and you may need to dump
        the
        > entire rig.
        >
        >
        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "cfglazier" <cglazier@c...> wrote:
        > > Drew
        > > I agree with you. I ride shackled in now and when I am safely out
        > on
        > > the water, I remove my leash and tie it to my bar. Then I put my
        > > leash back on before landing.
        > > I have tried some spinning leash systems from this forum but I
        > found
        > > situations when the leash became dangerously wrapped up after a
        > > spin. Removing the leash is safer. (This only applies for
        > > experienced kitesurfers who are doing spins.)
        > > I would be interested in the details on anyone's removable
        > > leash ..like where do you keep it and how do you clip it on.
        > >
        > > Chris G
        > >
        > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "agraceafc" <agraceafc@b...> wrote:
        > > > Remove the leash!!!
        > > >
        > > > I have been following with interest the recent debates on Leash-
        > > less
        > > > kites and thought I would add my some further topical
        information
        > > on
        > > > the issue. Other forums have started to discuss if there is the
        > > need
        > > > for a permanent safety leash systems and there has been some
        very
        > > > good suggestions on the logical use of a Rider leash-less
        systems
        > > at.
        > > > (http://star-board.com/kitediv02/forum/forum.asp) look up the
        > > posting
        > > > on shackles.
        > > >
        > > > I noted Dwight first introduced this topic a few weeks back
        and
        > > got
        > > > slammed for suggesting Leash-less riding but my suggestion is
        > that
        > > > blanked outright rejection of the suggestion is born out of
        > > ignorance
        > > > rather than constructive thought on the matter. I propose the
        > > > following circumstances where it is acceptable to use a leash-
        > less
        > > > system. Now before anyone decides to post back replies that
        this
        > > is
        > > > irresponsible to suggest this because Newbies may be reading
        > this,
        > > I
        > > > would just like to point out that this site is a discussion
        forum
        > > and
        > > > really the beginner to the sport should be subscribing to
        other
        > > web
        > > > sites that are dedicated to learning the great sport of Kite
        > > Boarding
        > > > and should read this in the context of discussion forum not a
        > > > biblical commandment of Kite Boarding safety.
        > > >
        > > > Acceptable Leash-less practices:
        > > > 1)The Kite boarder is permanently Hooked in
        > > > 2)The Kite boarder is an Experienced rider (that is to say not
        a
        > > > beginner learning the sport but someone that has logged over
        500
        > > kite
        > > > hours.
        > > > 3)A removable safely leash is used on Launching and Landing
        > > >
        > > > Assumptions: Most Kite problems that would require the
        activation
        > > of
        > > > the safety Leash system occur on Launching and Landing
        > situations.
        > > (
        > > > IMO)
        > > >
        > > > Most riders that I have come across including myself in recent
        > > times
        > > > use a permanently hooked in system, snap release system or
        > > similar.
        > > > With this in mind the concept of a Safety leash becomes a
        > > redundant
        > > > peace of equipment and even becomes dangerous in some cases
        once
        > > > multiple spins are performed on a regular basis during jumps. I
        > > have
        > > > experienced the leash wrapping around the middle leader lines
        > > and
        > > > breaking rendering the whole de-power system useless in the
        > past.
        > > >
        > > > Now if we go back into the history of why the Leash was
        developed
        > > it
        > > > was to prevent the early 2 line kites from blowing down the
        > beach,
        > > > rider-less out of control. Two line kites were never flown
        > > > permanently hooked-in, the case today is that many 4 line
        riders
        > > > today are riding permanently hooked into their kite. The main
        > > point
        > > > to note is that this sport is changing quickly and I believe we
        > > need
        > > > to constantly access why we do a certain procedure, use
        > particular
        > > > equipment. Its my opinion that we have developed a double
        condom
        > > > attitude to this sport in regards to the safety leash systems
        > > > currently employed. Why are we hooking ourselves in TWICE when
        > > once
        > > > is more that sufficient. At this point I will not go into
        detail
        > > of
        > > > the system I use as most experience boarders reading this will
        > > have a
        > > > fairly good idea of the system anyway. By riding free without a
        > > leash
        > > > you will enjoy you Kite Boarding a great deal more and still be
        > > able
        > > > to provide for safety situation on Launch and Landings but
        using
        > a
        > > > removable leash system. Romove that each condom from your
        > > > equipment.....
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > cheers and goodwinds
        > > > Drew
      • kiteboard2000
        ... found ... So wrapped that it wouldn t release? Have you tested it when wrapped? I was a bit surprised at the perfect function of my wrapped lines, when
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 1, 2002
          --- In kitesurf@y..., "cfglazier" <cglazier@c...> wrote:

          > I have tried some spinning leash systems from this forum but I
          found
          > situations when the leash became dangerously wrapped up after a
          > spin.

          So wrapped that it wouldn't release? Have you tested it when
          wrapped? I was a bit surprised at the perfect function of my wrapped
          lines, when releasing to the leash after watching my "bow-tied" arc
          do about 6 spins (it took me that long to realize I'd have to
          release). If it really won't release after a few spins, you could
          maintain safety by just adding a small, plain snap shackle to the
          leash itself (so you can release from everything in the unlikely
          event of depower-system failure).

          > Removing the leash is safer.

          Maybe safer for YOU, but what about that poor sap (possibly me!)
          riding downwind of you when somebody else runs into YOU, or you have
          a MAJOR wipeout or line failure (requiring you to release your kite
          into mine).

          Mel
        • callum_downie
          Hi Steve, Alot of the more experienced crew around here now are ditching their leashes if they re using a shackle to connect to the kite. (the guy riding the
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 3, 2002
            Hi Steve,
            Alot of the more experienced crew around here now are ditching their
            leashes if they're using a shackle to connect to the kite. (the guy
            riding the 18.9 RRD that day I was at dolls point is an example).

            For a few reasons, the surf is one, spinning and twists is another -
            when i spin at the moment my leash becomes dangerous untill I reach
            down and rotate my supposed swivelling snap shackle.
            Often at the moment if we ditch a kite in the surf we disconnect from
            it totally anyway, getting rid of the leash. Because if you have
            tension on any one line and a wave breaks or rolls into your kite the
            kite will more than likely blow out, if the kite is free then it
            tumbles and goes with the wave easier. And also beacuse the kite will
            pull you under the water when it's being hit by waves as well - as
            you seam to have found out!!

            I am going to change my setup so I can use the leash whilst on the
            beach and take it off once I get in the water. You know my story
            about getting multiple lines wrapped around myself in surf - one less
            line as got to be a good thing as far as I am concerned.

            Obviously there are many arguments for and against using a leash.
            I think if the rider is experience enough and has been given
            enough "lessons" by the kite to know his/her limits. And the
            conditions are reasonable then I don't think it is to much of a
            problem.

            It's a real each to their own at the moment!

            Catch ya,
            Callum


            --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
            > Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls
            big enough
            > to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of
            them
            > removed or disabled their leashes.
            > I wanted to hear from people who do go out in big surf (+10 foot
            faces) what
            > they feel about leashes in big surf, and at comps.
            > I have been caught in 1.5M surf and crashed the kite to find myself
            being
            > towed underwater, released the bar and was still being dragged but
            I was
            > mostly able to keep my head above the water, towards the end of my
            200M
            > dragging, I had to release the kite altogether as it was dragging
            so much I
            > could not keep my head above the water, and I was wearing an
            > impact/flotation vest. It is not something I want to repeat very
            often!
            >
            > Cya and
            > Goodwinds
            > Steve McCormack
            > http://www.kitepower.com.au
            > mailto:sydney@k...
            > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
            > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
            > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
            > mailto:geelong@k...
          • kitermatt
            Hi Steve, I ride with a board and kite leash in flat water and small waves all the time. I am a big advocate of leashes. However, as soon as the surf gets to
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 3, 2002
              Hi Steve,
              I ride with a board and kite leash in flat water and small
              waves all the time. I am a big advocate of leashes. However, as soon
              as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em both.
              In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when you eat it.
              Plus, your board will wash in and you can body drag to it. Similarly,
              if you let go of your kite in the surf you usually mean to to do that.
              That is, if you have dropped it and are getting dragged you. I can
              then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any damage I
              hope. There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound. The
              leash is more to tangle in as well. That's dangerous.
              Matt

              --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
              > Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls big
              enough
              > to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of
              them
              > removed or disabled their leashes.
              > I wanted to hear from people who do go out in big surf (+10 foot
              faces) what
              > they feel about leashes in big surf, and at comps.
              > I have been caught in 1.5M surf and crashed the kite to find myself
              being
              > towed underwater, released the bar and was still being dragged but I
              was
              > mostly able to keep my head above the water, towards the end of my
              200M
              > dragging, I had to release the kite altogether as it was dragging so
              much I
              > could not keep my head above the water, and I was wearing an
              > impact/flotation vest. It is not something I want to repeat very
              often!
              >
              > Cya and
              > Goodwinds
              > Steve McCormack
              > http://www.kitepower.com.au
              > mailto:sydney@k...
              > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
              > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
              > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
              > mailto:geelong@k...
            • Andre Myburgh
              ... And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you. ... To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it. ... Lucky you. If not, would it
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 3, 2002
                This sounds a bit self centered to me:

                > However, as soon
                > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em both.
                > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                > you eat it.

                And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.

                > I can
                > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any damage I
                > hope.

                To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.

                > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.

                Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking out others?

                Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a lot
                about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch our 'safety' gear
                to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure, if you
                ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board leash on
                flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in surf - if
                you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be out. A
                leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but yourself.

                My thoughts, flame away...

                André
              • kiteboard2000
                ... No flame from me. I couldn t agree more (unless there s never anybody but alert, experienced kiteboarders in the path of the released kite). Mel
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                  --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:

                  > This sounds a bit self centered to me...
                  > ...sounds dangerous to everybody but yourself.
                  >
                  > My thoughts, flame away...

                  No flame from me. I couldn't agree more (unless there's never
                  anybody but alert, experienced kiteboarders in the path of the
                  released kite).

                  Mel
                • Kitepower
                  Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls big enough to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of them removed or
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                    Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls big enough
                    to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of them
                    removed or disabled their leashes.
                    I wanted to hear from people who do go out in big surf (+10 foot faces) what
                    they feel about leashes in big surf, and at comps.
                    I have been caught in 1.5M surf and crashed the kite to find myself being
                    towed underwater, released the bar and was still being dragged but I was
                    mostly able to keep my head above the water, towards the end of my 200M
                    dragging, I had to release the kite altogether as it was dragging so much I
                    could not keep my head above the water, and I was wearing an
                    impact/flotation vest. It is not something I want to repeat very often!

                    Cya and
                    Goodwinds
                    Steve McCormack
                    http://www.kitepower.com.au
                    mailto:sydney@...
                    126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                    Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                    Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                    mailto:geelong@...
                  • kitermatt
                    Hi Andre, ... both. ... Uh, when it s blowing over 15 knots there is no one surfing. Also, the water is 48-52 degrees F so no one is swimming. The beach where
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                      Hi Andre,
                      My comments inline below:

                      --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
                      > This sounds a bit self centered to me:
                      >
                      > > However, as soon
                      > > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em
                      both.
                      > > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                      > > you eat it.
                      >
                      > And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.

                      Uh, when it's blowing over 15 knots there is no one surfing. Also, the
                      water is 48-52 degrees F so no one is swimming. The beach where I go
                      when it's big is in Northern California and it's not a place where
                      people just go to hang out on a windy day. The only people in the
                      water are other kiters, and only a few of them at that. It's not like
                      it's some town beach where people are hanging out. Also, it's a
                      well-defined point break, so the only people in the waves are riding,
                      while everyone kiting back out is in the channel downwind. Kites don't
                      wash in through the channel. They wash in on the point where no one is
                      kiting out.

                      >
                      > > I can
                      > > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any
                      damage I
                      > > hope.
                      >
                      > To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.
                      >
                      > > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.
                      >
                      > Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking out
                      others?

                      Nope. I have seen kites wash in many times, and they just get worked
                      and wrapped up in the shorepound for minutes on end. We have a rip
                      current that even takes them back out sometimes. Also, the wind is
                      dead sideshore so kites don't blow onto the beach. We have a
                      tight-knit crew here so we are all looking out for each other,
                      grabbing kites. This kind of environment makes it easier to use kites
                      with a leashless system. Don't you think I would have thought about
                      the kind of environment where I kite before using a leashless system -
                      empty beach, sideshore wind, other kiter friends on the beach, in big
                      waves only. This works here, but may not apply where you kite.

                      Additionally, when your kite goes down in surf and gets dragged by a
                      wave, this will almost always break your kite leash. So the situation
                      is the same, whether you use a kite leash or not. Dropping your kite
                      in big surf = swimming in after it. If this did not happen I would use
                      a kite leash.

                      >
                      > Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a
                      lot
                      > about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch our
                      'safety' gear
                      > to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure,
                      if you
                      > ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board
                      leash on
                      > flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in
                      surf - if
                      > you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be out.

                      Uh, not really. In our so-called "flat" water, using a board leash,
                      at least around here, is desirable, because there is always windswell
                      and you can't see your board many times after you eat it. I choose to
                      use a board leash, and some others don't when the surf is small. It
                      works either way.
                      However, in surf, the board leash is a liability. I have had it wrap
                      around me and go through my kite lines, as well as having the board
                      wash over me in waves. I have surfed for many years, on waves bigger
                      than you have even thought about getting into, and I use a surfboard
                      leash to surf. But on a kite, the board leash is not helpful in bigger
                      surf.

                      A
                      > leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but
                      yourself.

                      When your kite leash breaks in big surf when you drop your kite,
                      you're leashless anyway.

                      >
                      > My thoughts, flame away...

                      No flames. I just think you need to try kiting in big waves yourself
                      before making posts like this. From your post, I can tell that you
                      haven't done it. Also, your local beach and people conditions factor
                      into the leash decisions.

                      Shred on,
                      Matt

                      >
                      > André
                    • Andre Myburgh
                      ... That s true - biggest kitesurfing was 4ft max, but I have surfed 8ft, and can imagine you don t want to be attached to anything when wiping in that. ... So
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                        > No flames. I just think you need to try kiting in big waves yourself
                        > before making posts like this. From your post, I can tell that you
                        > haven't done it.

                        That's true - biggest kitesurfing was 4ft max, but I have surfed 8ft, and
                        can imagine you don't want to be attached to anything when wiping in that.

                        > Also, your local beach and people conditions factor
                        > into the leash decisions.

                        So we agree then, > "Sure, if you ride at an empty beach, that's fine"

                        PS. What kites do you use that survives "6-8 foot" waves?


                        Cheers

                        André


                        >
                        > Shred on,
                        > Matt
                        >
                        > >
                        > > André
                        >
                        >
                        > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to
                        > kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • kitermatt
                        Hi Andre, Yes, we definitely agree. Not using kite leashes are ONLY ok at an empty beach, preferably while using a snap shackle. As far as what I ride that
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                          Hi Andre,
                          Yes, we definitely agree. Not using kite leashes are ONLY ok at an
                          empty beach, preferably while using a snap shackle. As far as what I
                          ride that survives overhead surf, believe it or not I use Air Blasts.
                          I have broken the leash and ripped out the pigtails on one side. The
                          real key is to not drop your kite :-). One reason the no-leash thing
                          is ok at our beach is that no one really drops their kites in the surf
                          that often, so it hasn't been an issue. Maybe once every few weeks
                          someone will drop a kite and have to swim in after it. I've dropped
                          mine 2 times in the surf in the last year and had to swim in. But
                          yeah, keep the kite dry and all is good.
                          We had double-triple overhead waves here 3 weeks ago in powered up
                          11.5 wind. That's huge waves for a kite, but our local crew did well.
                          I saw Peter Schiebel, owner of Caution Kites, on like a 20 ft. face.
                          Wave of the day. Nuts!
                          Take care mon,
                          Matt

                          --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > No flames. I just think you need to try kiting in big waves
                          yourself
                          > > before making posts like this. From your post, I can tell that you
                          > > haven't done it.
                          >
                          > That's true - biggest kitesurfing was 4ft max, but I have surfed
                          8ft, and
                          > can imagine you don't want to be attached to anything when wiping in
                          that.
                          >
                          > > Also, your local beach and people conditions factor
                          > > into the leash decisions.
                          >
                          > So we agree then, > "Sure, if you ride at an empty beach, that's
                          fine"
                          >
                          > PS. What kites do you use that survives "6-8 foot" waves?
                          >
                          >
                          > Cheers
                          >
                          > André
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Shred on,
                          > > Matt
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > André
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to
                          > > kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                        • Kitepower
                          I was hoping not to start a flame/opinion war, oh well! :-))) I wanted to hear from people who actually ride in big surf frequently, or who have found
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                            I was hoping not to start a flame/opinion war, oh well! :-)))
                            I wanted to hear from people who actually ride in big surf frequently, or
                            who have found themselves having to compete in large surf, when not used to
                            these conditions.
                            The opinions of people who have never faced these conditions is not wanted
                            in this thread (please), and these people will be of lower skill anyway so
                            they should always be wearing leashes and other safety gear which we all
                            know.

                            I think it is valuable to all of us to hear from these experienced big
                            wave/wind riders, there are VERY REAL SAFETY issues involved with wearing
                            leashes (board or kite) in big surf.

                            All the arguments for wearing a leash in these conditions one are flawed and
                            dangerous.

                            No other water/wind sports enthusiasts were able to enjoy the conditions we
                            had at Fingal Bay, and anyway are you guys saying wavesailors should wear
                            board leashes too??
                            There is some very limited thinking happening around this leash issue, and
                            it is very important to approach it with an open mind IMO.

                            This sport is not about sacrificing your own safety for the imagined fears
                            of others. There is no reason to not ride 15' or bigger waves if you have
                            the necessary skills and gear to do it, and after my experience in 6' surf
                            there is no way I would wear or advise anyone to wear a leash in the really
                            big conditions.

                            Some of the imaginary scenarios from the wear leashes no matter what brigade
                            are either extremely unlikely to ever occur or just simply do not occur, in
                            my experience.


                            Cya and
                            Goodwinds
                            Steve McCormack
                            http://www.kitepower.com.au
                            mailto:sydney@...
                            Open 7 days
                            126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                            Phone +61293157894

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Andre Myburgh [mailto:andrem@...]
                            Sent: 04 April, 2002 4:45 PM
                            To: 'kitesurf@yahoogroups.com'
                            Subject: RE: [ksurf] Remove the Leash


                            This sounds a bit self centered to me:

                            > However, as soon
                            > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em both.
                            > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                            > you eat it.

                            And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.

                            > I can
                            > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any damage I
                            > hope.

                            To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.

                            > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.

                            Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking out others?

                            Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a lot
                            about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch our 'safety' gear
                            to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure, if you
                            ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board leash on
                            flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in surf - if
                            you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be out. A
                            leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but yourself.

                            My thoughts, flame away...

                            André

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                          • callum_downie
                            The person who suggested wearing a board leash in sizable surf has got to be kidding. I m sorry but that is close to the worst piece of adivse I think I have
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                              The person who suggested wearing a board leash in sizable surf has
                              got to be kidding. I'm sorry but that is close to the worst piece of
                              adivse I think I have sceen on this group.

                              A few weeks ago now I had the unfortunate pleasure? of having a
                              fellow rider ask for me to look at the top of his head and advise him
                              of how bad the gash in his head was. Lets just say I almost threw
                              up. He got hit by his board beacause he came off in the surf line
                              and his kite dragged him downwind toward the beach when he came off -
                              as kites do. This has put his board right between him and the next
                              set wave and of course when the wave hit it has thrown the board
                              right at him. This was in a nasty 6-8ft swell, nasty because it was
                              heaving up of a shallow sand bank producing a nasty dumping wave.

                              And then there is the danger of the board leash wrapping around you
                              if you are in getting tossed around in the breaking wave. I have had
                              this experience, as i have written here before, I had the leaders of
                              my kite around my legs and the board leash nicely got wrapped around
                              my neck. I was this '' close to giving up kiting after that little
                              episode (obviously glad I didn't!).

                              Look at these two incidents, imagine being part of them either in the
                              first person or not. NOW advise me that I should put a leash back on
                              my board.
                              And before you say what if in the first incident he hadn't had a
                              leash and the board had hit another water user. For one, the board is
                              unlikly to do that because it's not likely to end up directly between
                              someone and a wave the reason it ends up there for a rider is beacuse
                              the leash effectivly pulls the board into that position.
                              And very unlikely in those conditions, there was 4 kites out and
                              about 6 surfers on another break a little way away, I didn't see
                              another person in the water.

                              There is no question what so ever that the board leash is a bad idea
                              in sizable surf.
                              The only question is, what about the kite leash...

                              Callum



                              --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                              > I was hoping not to start a flame/opinion war, oh well! :-)))
                              > I wanted to hear from people who actually ride in big surf
                              frequently, or
                              > who have found themselves having to compete in large surf, when not
                              used to
                              > these conditions.
                              > The opinions of people who have never faced these conditions is not
                              wanted
                              > in this thread (please), and these people will be of lower skill
                              anyway so
                              > they should always be wearing leashes and other safety gear which
                              we all
                              > know.
                              >
                              > I think it is valuable to all of us to hear from these experienced
                              big
                              > wave/wind riders, there are VERY REAL SAFETY issues involved with
                              wearing
                              > leashes (board or kite) in big surf.
                              >
                              > All the arguments for wearing a leash in these conditions one are
                              flawed and
                              > dangerous.
                              >
                              > No other water/wind sports enthusiasts were able to enjoy the
                              conditions we
                              > had at Fingal Bay, and anyway are you guys saying wavesailors
                              should wear
                              > board leashes too??
                              > There is some very limited thinking happening around this leash
                              issue, and
                              > it is very important to approach it with an open mind IMO.
                              >
                              > This sport is not about sacrificing your own safety for the
                              imagined fears
                              > of others. There is no reason to not ride 15' or bigger waves if
                              you have
                              > the necessary skills and gear to do it, and after my experience in
                              6' surf
                              > there is no way I would wear or advise anyone to wear a leash in
                              the really
                              > big conditions.
                              >
                              > Some of the imaginary scenarios from the wear leashes no matter
                              what brigade
                              > are either extremely unlikely to ever occur or just simply do not
                              occur, in
                              > my experience.
                              >
                              >
                              > Cya and
                              > Goodwinds
                              > Steve McCormack
                              > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                              > mailto:sydney@k...
                              > Open 7 days
                              > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                              > Phone +61293157894
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Andre Myburgh [mailto:andrem@c...]
                              > Sent: 04 April, 2002 4:45 PM
                              > To: 'kitesurf@y...'
                              > Subject: RE: [ksurf] Remove the Leash
                              >
                              >
                              > This sounds a bit self centered to me:
                              >
                              > > However, as soon
                              > > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em
                              both.
                              > > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                              > > you eat it.
                              >
                              > And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.
                              >
                              > > I can
                              > > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any
                              damage I
                              > > hope.
                              >
                              > To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.
                              >
                              > > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.
                              >
                              > Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking
                              out others?
                              >
                              > Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a
                              lot
                              > about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch
                              our 'safety' gear
                              > to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure,
                              if you
                              > ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board
                              leash on
                              > flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in
                              surf - if
                              > you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be
                              out. A
                              > leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but
                              yourself.
                              >
                              > My thoughts, flame away...
                              >
                              > André
                              >
                              > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                              >
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                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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