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Re: Remove the Leash

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  • peter_frank_dk
    I ride with the leash hooked, now and then - but normally without. But I always hook the leash on, when starting at dangerous places (rocks, stones, boats to
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 1 10:09 AM
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      I ride with the leash hooked, now and then - but normally without.

      But I always hook the leash on, when starting at "dangerous" places
      (rocks, stones, boats to the leeward), and then usually dehook when
      in the water.

      Now I just use the std. Wipika plastic clip. Hook it into a ring on
      my trapeze, and then on the clip on the bar, when on the water.
      And I just take it one more time around the center lines, when
      dehooking on the water, so it won't dangle and your board can't get
      caught when doing deadmans or something else "upside down".

      I was amazed how much load these plastic things can take - they look
      so "cheap" (and I think they are...), but works really good.

      Leashes can only be mounted on the trapeze, in order to not disturb
      too much, IMO. Hand leashes can not be used.

      Today I don't mind using the leash that much, because it seems easy
      to just make a few reverse double or single spins, or change
      direction and make some new spins to untwist.
      In fact I found that it is a good excersize - otherwise you tend to
      do your Favorite trick/spins most of the time - and you get worse and
      worse on your "bad" directions because they are not practiced !

      If you have to make the untwists when almost forced to, instead of
      just spinning the bar - you'll get better as a kiter IMO !

      Just my experiences.

      :-) Peter Frank


      --- In kitesurf@y..., "cfglazier" <cglazier@c...> wrote:
      > Drew
      > I agree with you. I ride shackled in now and when I am safely out
      on
      > the water, I remove my leash and tie it to my bar. Then I put my
      > leash back on before landing.
      > I have tried some spinning leash systems from this forum but I
      found
      > situations when the leash became dangerously wrapped up after a
      > spin. Removing the leash is safer. (This only applies for
      > experienced kitesurfers who are doing spins.)
      > I would be interested in the details on anyone's removable
      > leash ..like where do you keep it and how do you clip it on.
      >
      > Chris G
      >
      > --- In kitesurf@y..., "agraceafc" <agraceafc@b...> wrote:
      > > Remove the leash!!!
      > >
      > > I have been following with interest the recent debates on Leash-
      > less
      > > kites and thought I would add my some further topical information
      > on
      > > the issue. Other forums have started to discuss if there is the
      > need
      > > for a permanent safety leash systems and there has been some very
      > > good suggestions on the logical use of a Rider leash-less systems
      > at.
      > > (http://star-board.com/kitediv02/forum/forum.asp) look up the
      > posting
      > > on shackles.
      > >
      > > I noted Dwight first introduced this topic a few weeks back and
      > got
      > > slammed for suggesting Leash-less riding but my suggestion is
      that
      > > blanked outright rejection of the suggestion is born out of
      > ignorance
      > > rather than constructive thought on the matter. I propose the
      > > following circumstances where it is acceptable to use a leash-
      less
      > > system. Now before anyone decides to post back replies that this
      > is
      > > irresponsible to suggest this because Newbies may be reading
      this,
      > I
      > > would just like to point out that this site is a discussion forum
      > and
      > > really the beginner to the sport should be subscribing to other
      > web
      > > sites that are dedicated to learning the great sport of Kite
      > Boarding
      > > and should read this in the context of discussion forum not a
      > > biblical commandment of Kite Boarding safety.
      > >
      > > Acceptable Leash-less practices:
      > > 1)The Kite boarder is permanently Hooked in
      > > 2)The Kite boarder is an Experienced rider (that is to say not a
      > > beginner learning the sport but someone that has logged over 500
      > kite
      > > hours.
      > > 3)A removable safely leash is used on Launching and Landing
      > >
      > > Assumptions: Most Kite problems that would require the activation
      > of
      > > the safety Leash system occur on Launching and Landing
      situations.
      > (
      > > IMO)
      > >
      > > Most riders that I have come across including myself in recent
      > times
      > > use a permanently hooked in system, snap release system or
      > similar.
      > > With this in mind the concept of a Safety leash becomes a
      > redundant
      > > peace of equipment and even becomes dangerous in some cases once
      > > multiple spins are performed on a regular basis during jumps. I
      > have
      > > experienced the leash wrapping around the middle leader lines
      > and
      > > breaking rendering the whole de-power system useless in the
      past.
      > >
      > > Now if we go back into the history of why the Leash was developed
      > it
      > > was to prevent the early 2 line kites from blowing down the
      beach,
      > > rider-less out of control. Two line kites were never flown
      > > permanently hooked-in, the case today is that many 4 line riders
      > > today are riding permanently hooked into their kite. The main
      > point
      > > to note is that this sport is changing quickly and I believe we
      > need
      > > to constantly access why we do a certain procedure, use
      particular
      > > equipment. Its my opinion that we have developed a double condom
      > > attitude to this sport in regards to the safety leash systems
      > > currently employed. Why are we hooking ourselves in TWICE when
      > once
      > > is more that sufficient. At this point I will not go into detail
      > of
      > > the system I use as most experience boarders reading this will
      > have a
      > > fairly good idea of the system anyway. By riding free without a
      > leash
      > > you will enjoy you Kite Boarding a great deal more and still be
      > able
      > > to provide for safety situation on Launch and Landings but using
      a
      > > removable leash system. Romove that each condom from your
      > > equipment.....
      > >
      > >
      > > cheers and goodwinds
      > > Drew
    • kiteboard2000
      ... This still endangers anybody unlucky enough to be downwind of you on the water, & is also not the best for onshore conditions (endangering those on shore).
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 1 10:11 AM
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        --- In kitesurf@y..., "igsmith" <igsmith@y...> wrote:

        > I snap shackle and have a removable leash. ...
        > I always launch and land with the safety connected (because I will
        > not be spinning on land!!) and once I am safely away from shore, I
        > unhook it and snap it to my harness.

        This still endangers anybody unlucky enough to be downwind of you on
        the water, & is also not the best for onshore conditions (endangering
        those on shore). If you want nothing on your wrist, nothing that
        won't spin, nothing that gets in the way, nothing that you have to
        try to grab to retain your kite, but something to always keep you,
        your kite, & other people safe when you have to release it, check out
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/
        scroll down & click "Mel's Stuff" then "MelMods", then "Mel's
        Mounting Methods" & there's a photo of a spinning leash system.

        It's shown on a "line rlease" shackle (Wichard 2673) but also works
        with any "trigger" shackle (like a Tylaska T-8).

        If you don't want to pay $40 for a bungied SlingShot leash (or make
        your own) the plain black leash line shown simply droops down a
        little below the bar, & doesn't get in the way of a harness line
        (just feed the leash through the harness line's loop, if you use one).

        If you already have a shackle which doesn't have the "extra" fixed
        opening (like the Wichard or Tylaska) then you can just attach a $12
        plain swivel from West Marine to the spreader, and attach the leash &
        shackle to the other side of the swivel. IF your shackle has a
        welded release ring, some riders attach the leash to it (or replace
        it with a loop of stainless sailboat rigging cable, before attaching
        the leash).

        Mel
      • peter_frank_dk
        Thats right - be sure to have some safety release on the safety leash (am I drunk ? - it sounds funny - try to say it fast...) A simple snap shackle into a
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 1 10:16 AM
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          Thats right - be sure to have some safety release on the safety leash
          (am I drunk ? - it sounds funny - try to say it fast...)
          A simple snap shackle into a ring in a normal safety release system
          on your trapeze (I think all brands are making them now).
          Easy and effective !

          :-) Peter

          --- In kitesurf@y..., "igsmith" <igsmith@y...> wrote:
          > I snap shackle and have a removable leash. I use the airush bars,
          and
          > instead of having the wrist leash connected, I end the line in an O
          > ring.
          >
          > The system is very simple. I have a DaKine XT Seat Harness and
          > attached a small O ring to the harness (through the straps). To
          this,
          > I have a small snap shackle. Connected to the snap shackle is a
          small
          > stretch of q power line, ending in a small carabiner. The carabiner
          > attaches to the "grab leash" on the airush bar (this is a sliding
          bar
          > safety system).
          >
          > I always launch and land with the safety connected (because I will
          > not be spinning on land!!) and once I am safely away from shore, I
          > unhook it and snap it to my harness. And, before I come in, I do
          the
          > same. It takes about 2 seconds to hook and unhook. You end up with
          a
          > loop of q power attached to you, but it never seems to get in the
          way.
          >
          > I do think you need a system to release from the safety, because it
          > can happen that lines get all screwed up and you may need to dump
          the
          > entire rig.
          >
          >
          > --- In kitesurf@y..., "cfglazier" <cglazier@c...> wrote:
          > > Drew
          > > I agree with you. I ride shackled in now and when I am safely out
          > on
          > > the water, I remove my leash and tie it to my bar. Then I put my
          > > leash back on before landing.
          > > I have tried some spinning leash systems from this forum but I
          > found
          > > situations when the leash became dangerously wrapped up after a
          > > spin. Removing the leash is safer. (This only applies for
          > > experienced kitesurfers who are doing spins.)
          > > I would be interested in the details on anyone's removable
          > > leash ..like where do you keep it and how do you clip it on.
          > >
          > > Chris G
          > >
          > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "agraceafc" <agraceafc@b...> wrote:
          > > > Remove the leash!!!
          > > >
          > > > I have been following with interest the recent debates on Leash-
          > > less
          > > > kites and thought I would add my some further topical
          information
          > > on
          > > > the issue. Other forums have started to discuss if there is the
          > > need
          > > > for a permanent safety leash systems and there has been some
          very
          > > > good suggestions on the logical use of a Rider leash-less
          systems
          > > at.
          > > > (http://star-board.com/kitediv02/forum/forum.asp) look up the
          > > posting
          > > > on shackles.
          > > >
          > > > I noted Dwight first introduced this topic a few weeks back
          and
          > > got
          > > > slammed for suggesting Leash-less riding but my suggestion is
          > that
          > > > blanked outright rejection of the suggestion is born out of
          > > ignorance
          > > > rather than constructive thought on the matter. I propose the
          > > > following circumstances where it is acceptable to use a leash-
          > less
          > > > system. Now before anyone decides to post back replies that
          this
          > > is
          > > > irresponsible to suggest this because Newbies may be reading
          > this,
          > > I
          > > > would just like to point out that this site is a discussion
          forum
          > > and
          > > > really the beginner to the sport should be subscribing to
          other
          > > web
          > > > sites that are dedicated to learning the great sport of Kite
          > > Boarding
          > > > and should read this in the context of discussion forum not a
          > > > biblical commandment of Kite Boarding safety.
          > > >
          > > > Acceptable Leash-less practices:
          > > > 1)The Kite boarder is permanently Hooked in
          > > > 2)The Kite boarder is an Experienced rider (that is to say not
          a
          > > > beginner learning the sport but someone that has logged over
          500
          > > kite
          > > > hours.
          > > > 3)A removable safely leash is used on Launching and Landing
          > > >
          > > > Assumptions: Most Kite problems that would require the
          activation
          > > of
          > > > the safety Leash system occur on Launching and Landing
          > situations.
          > > (
          > > > IMO)
          > > >
          > > > Most riders that I have come across including myself in recent
          > > times
          > > > use a permanently hooked in system, snap release system or
          > > similar.
          > > > With this in mind the concept of a Safety leash becomes a
          > > redundant
          > > > peace of equipment and even becomes dangerous in some cases
          once
          > > > multiple spins are performed on a regular basis during jumps. I
          > > have
          > > > experienced the leash wrapping around the middle leader lines
          > > and
          > > > breaking rendering the whole de-power system useless in the
          > past.
          > > >
          > > > Now if we go back into the history of why the Leash was
          developed
          > > it
          > > > was to prevent the early 2 line kites from blowing down the
          > beach,
          > > > rider-less out of control. Two line kites were never flown
          > > > permanently hooked-in, the case today is that many 4 line
          riders
          > > > today are riding permanently hooked into their kite. The main
          > > point
          > > > to note is that this sport is changing quickly and I believe we
          > > need
          > > > to constantly access why we do a certain procedure, use
          > particular
          > > > equipment. Its my opinion that we have developed a double
          condom
          > > > attitude to this sport in regards to the safety leash systems
          > > > currently employed. Why are we hooking ourselves in TWICE when
          > > once
          > > > is more that sufficient. At this point I will not go into
          detail
          > > of
          > > > the system I use as most experience boarders reading this will
          > > have a
          > > > fairly good idea of the system anyway. By riding free without a
          > > leash
          > > > you will enjoy you Kite Boarding a great deal more and still be
          > > able
          > > > to provide for safety situation on Launch and Landings but
          using
          > a
          > > > removable leash system. Romove that each condom from your
          > > > equipment.....
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > cheers and goodwinds
          > > > Drew
        • kiteboard2000
          ... found ... So wrapped that it wouldn t release? Have you tested it when wrapped? I was a bit surprised at the perfect function of my wrapped lines, when
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 1 10:38 AM
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            --- In kitesurf@y..., "cfglazier" <cglazier@c...> wrote:

            > I have tried some spinning leash systems from this forum but I
            found
            > situations when the leash became dangerously wrapped up after a
            > spin.

            So wrapped that it wouldn't release? Have you tested it when
            wrapped? I was a bit surprised at the perfect function of my wrapped
            lines, when releasing to the leash after watching my "bow-tied" arc
            do about 6 spins (it took me that long to realize I'd have to
            release). If it really won't release after a few spins, you could
            maintain safety by just adding a small, plain snap shackle to the
            leash itself (so you can release from everything in the unlikely
            event of depower-system failure).

            > Removing the leash is safer.

            Maybe safer for YOU, but what about that poor sap (possibly me!)
            riding downwind of you when somebody else runs into YOU, or you have
            a MAJOR wipeout or line failure (requiring you to release your kite
            into mine).

            Mel
          • callum_downie
            Hi Steve, Alot of the more experienced crew around here now are ditching their leashes if they re using a shackle to connect to the kite. (the guy riding the
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 3 4:41 PM
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              Hi Steve,
              Alot of the more experienced crew around here now are ditching their
              leashes if they're using a shackle to connect to the kite. (the guy
              riding the 18.9 RRD that day I was at dolls point is an example).

              For a few reasons, the surf is one, spinning and twists is another -
              when i spin at the moment my leash becomes dangerous untill I reach
              down and rotate my supposed swivelling snap shackle.
              Often at the moment if we ditch a kite in the surf we disconnect from
              it totally anyway, getting rid of the leash. Because if you have
              tension on any one line and a wave breaks or rolls into your kite the
              kite will more than likely blow out, if the kite is free then it
              tumbles and goes with the wave easier. And also beacuse the kite will
              pull you under the water when it's being hit by waves as well - as
              you seam to have found out!!

              I am going to change my setup so I can use the leash whilst on the
              beach and take it off once I get in the water. You know my story
              about getting multiple lines wrapped around myself in surf - one less
              line as got to be a good thing as far as I am concerned.

              Obviously there are many arguments for and against using a leash.
              I think if the rider is experience enough and has been given
              enough "lessons" by the kite to know his/her limits. And the
              conditions are reasonable then I don't think it is to much of a
              problem.

              It's a real each to their own at the moment!

              Catch ya,
              Callum


              --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
              > Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls
              big enough
              > to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of
              them
              > removed or disabled their leashes.
              > I wanted to hear from people who do go out in big surf (+10 foot
              faces) what
              > they feel about leashes in big surf, and at comps.
              > I have been caught in 1.5M surf and crashed the kite to find myself
              being
              > towed underwater, released the bar and was still being dragged but
              I was
              > mostly able to keep my head above the water, towards the end of my
              200M
              > dragging, I had to release the kite altogether as it was dragging
              so much I
              > could not keep my head above the water, and I was wearing an
              > impact/flotation vest. It is not something I want to repeat very
              often!
              >
              > Cya and
              > Goodwinds
              > Steve McCormack
              > http://www.kitepower.com.au
              > mailto:sydney@k...
              > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
              > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
              > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
              > mailto:geelong@k...
            • kitermatt
              Hi Steve, I ride with a board and kite leash in flat water and small waves all the time. I am a big advocate of leashes. However, as soon as the surf gets to
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 3 4:50 PM
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                Hi Steve,
                I ride with a board and kite leash in flat water and small
                waves all the time. I am a big advocate of leashes. However, as soon
                as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em both.
                In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when you eat it.
                Plus, your board will wash in and you can body drag to it. Similarly,
                if you let go of your kite in the surf you usually mean to to do that.
                That is, if you have dropped it and are getting dragged you. I can
                then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any damage I
                hope. There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound. The
                leash is more to tangle in as well. That's dangerous.
                Matt

                --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                > Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls big
                enough
                > to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of
                them
                > removed or disabled their leashes.
                > I wanted to hear from people who do go out in big surf (+10 foot
                faces) what
                > they feel about leashes in big surf, and at comps.
                > I have been caught in 1.5M surf and crashed the kite to find myself
                being
                > towed underwater, released the bar and was still being dragged but I
                was
                > mostly able to keep my head above the water, towards the end of my
                200M
                > dragging, I had to release the kite altogether as it was dragging so
                much I
                > could not keep my head above the water, and I was wearing an
                > impact/flotation vest. It is not something I want to repeat very
                often!
                >
                > Cya and
                > Goodwinds
                > Steve McCormack
                > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                > mailto:sydney@k...
                > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                > mailto:geelong@k...
              • Andre Myburgh
                ... And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you. ... To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it. ... Lucky you. If not, would it
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 3 10:45 PM
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                  This sounds a bit self centered to me:

                  > However, as soon
                  > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em both.
                  > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                  > you eat it.

                  And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.

                  > I can
                  > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any damage I
                  > hope.

                  To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.

                  > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.

                  Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking out others?

                  Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a lot
                  about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch our 'safety' gear
                  to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure, if you
                  ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board leash on
                  flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in surf - if
                  you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be out. A
                  leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but yourself.

                  My thoughts, flame away...

                  André
                • kiteboard2000
                  ... No flame from me. I couldn t agree more (unless there s never anybody but alert, experienced kiteboarders in the path of the released kite). Mel
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 4 1:03 AM
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                    --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:

                    > This sounds a bit self centered to me...
                    > ...sounds dangerous to everybody but yourself.
                    >
                    > My thoughts, flame away...

                    No flame from me. I couldn't agree more (unless there's never
                    anybody but alert, experienced kiteboarders in the path of the
                    released kite).

                    Mel
                  • Kitepower
                    Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls big enough to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of them removed or
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 4 2:15 AM
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                      Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls big enough
                      to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of them
                      removed or disabled their leashes.
                      I wanted to hear from people who do go out in big surf (+10 foot faces) what
                      they feel about leashes in big surf, and at comps.
                      I have been caught in 1.5M surf and crashed the kite to find myself being
                      towed underwater, released the bar and was still being dragged but I was
                      mostly able to keep my head above the water, towards the end of my 200M
                      dragging, I had to release the kite altogether as it was dragging so much I
                      could not keep my head above the water, and I was wearing an
                      impact/flotation vest. It is not something I want to repeat very often!

                      Cya and
                      Goodwinds
                      Steve McCormack
                      http://www.kitepower.com.au
                      mailto:sydney@...
                      126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                      Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                      Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                      mailto:geelong@...
                    • kitermatt
                      Hi Andre, ... both. ... Uh, when it s blowing over 15 knots there is no one surfing. Also, the water is 48-52 degrees F so no one is swimming. The beach where
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 4 7:23 AM
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                        Hi Andre,
                        My comments inline below:

                        --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
                        > This sounds a bit self centered to me:
                        >
                        > > However, as soon
                        > > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em
                        both.
                        > > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                        > > you eat it.
                        >
                        > And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.

                        Uh, when it's blowing over 15 knots there is no one surfing. Also, the
                        water is 48-52 degrees F so no one is swimming. The beach where I go
                        when it's big is in Northern California and it's not a place where
                        people just go to hang out on a windy day. The only people in the
                        water are other kiters, and only a few of them at that. It's not like
                        it's some town beach where people are hanging out. Also, it's a
                        well-defined point break, so the only people in the waves are riding,
                        while everyone kiting back out is in the channel downwind. Kites don't
                        wash in through the channel. They wash in on the point where no one is
                        kiting out.

                        >
                        > > I can
                        > > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any
                        damage I
                        > > hope.
                        >
                        > To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.
                        >
                        > > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.
                        >
                        > Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking out
                        others?

                        Nope. I have seen kites wash in many times, and they just get worked
                        and wrapped up in the shorepound for minutes on end. We have a rip
                        current that even takes them back out sometimes. Also, the wind is
                        dead sideshore so kites don't blow onto the beach. We have a
                        tight-knit crew here so we are all looking out for each other,
                        grabbing kites. This kind of environment makes it easier to use kites
                        with a leashless system. Don't you think I would have thought about
                        the kind of environment where I kite before using a leashless system -
                        empty beach, sideshore wind, other kiter friends on the beach, in big
                        waves only. This works here, but may not apply where you kite.

                        Additionally, when your kite goes down in surf and gets dragged by a
                        wave, this will almost always break your kite leash. So the situation
                        is the same, whether you use a kite leash or not. Dropping your kite
                        in big surf = swimming in after it. If this did not happen I would use
                        a kite leash.

                        >
                        > Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a
                        lot
                        > about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch our
                        'safety' gear
                        > to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure,
                        if you
                        > ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board
                        leash on
                        > flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in
                        surf - if
                        > you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be out.

                        Uh, not really. In our so-called "flat" water, using a board leash,
                        at least around here, is desirable, because there is always windswell
                        and you can't see your board many times after you eat it. I choose to
                        use a board leash, and some others don't when the surf is small. It
                        works either way.
                        However, in surf, the board leash is a liability. I have had it wrap
                        around me and go through my kite lines, as well as having the board
                        wash over me in waves. I have surfed for many years, on waves bigger
                        than you have even thought about getting into, and I use a surfboard
                        leash to surf. But on a kite, the board leash is not helpful in bigger
                        surf.

                        A
                        > leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but
                        yourself.

                        When your kite leash breaks in big surf when you drop your kite,
                        you're leashless anyway.

                        >
                        > My thoughts, flame away...

                        No flames. I just think you need to try kiting in big waves yourself
                        before making posts like this. From your post, I can tell that you
                        haven't done it. Also, your local beach and people conditions factor
                        into the leash decisions.

                        Shred on,
                        Matt

                        >
                        > André
                      • Andre Myburgh
                        ... That s true - biggest kitesurfing was 4ft max, but I have surfed 8ft, and can imagine you don t want to be attached to anything when wiping in that. ... So
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 4 7:42 AM
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                          > No flames. I just think you need to try kiting in big waves yourself
                          > before making posts like this. From your post, I can tell that you
                          > haven't done it.

                          That's true - biggest kitesurfing was 4ft max, but I have surfed 8ft, and
                          can imagine you don't want to be attached to anything when wiping in that.

                          > Also, your local beach and people conditions factor
                          > into the leash decisions.

                          So we agree then, > "Sure, if you ride at an empty beach, that's fine"

                          PS. What kites do you use that survives "6-8 foot" waves?


                          Cheers

                          André


                          >
                          > Shred on,
                          > Matt
                          >
                          > >
                          > > André
                          >
                          >
                          > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to
                          > kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • kitermatt
                          Hi Andre, Yes, we definitely agree. Not using kite leashes are ONLY ok at an empty beach, preferably while using a snap shackle. As far as what I ride that
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 4 8:01 AM
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                            Hi Andre,
                            Yes, we definitely agree. Not using kite leashes are ONLY ok at an
                            empty beach, preferably while using a snap shackle. As far as what I
                            ride that survives overhead surf, believe it or not I use Air Blasts.
                            I have broken the leash and ripped out the pigtails on one side. The
                            real key is to not drop your kite :-). One reason the no-leash thing
                            is ok at our beach is that no one really drops their kites in the surf
                            that often, so it hasn't been an issue. Maybe once every few weeks
                            someone will drop a kite and have to swim in after it. I've dropped
                            mine 2 times in the surf in the last year and had to swim in. But
                            yeah, keep the kite dry and all is good.
                            We had double-triple overhead waves here 3 weeks ago in powered up
                            11.5 wind. That's huge waves for a kite, but our local crew did well.
                            I saw Peter Schiebel, owner of Caution Kites, on like a 20 ft. face.
                            Wave of the day. Nuts!
                            Take care mon,
                            Matt

                            --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > No flames. I just think you need to try kiting in big waves
                            yourself
                            > > before making posts like this. From your post, I can tell that you
                            > > haven't done it.
                            >
                            > That's true - biggest kitesurfing was 4ft max, but I have surfed
                            8ft, and
                            > can imagine you don't want to be attached to anything when wiping in
                            that.
                            >
                            > > Also, your local beach and people conditions factor
                            > > into the leash decisions.
                            >
                            > So we agree then, > "Sure, if you ride at an empty beach, that's
                            fine"
                            >
                            > PS. What kites do you use that survives "6-8 foot" waves?
                            >
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            >
                            > André
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Shred on,
                            > > Matt
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > André
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to
                            > > kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > >
                            > >
                          • Kitepower
                            I was hoping not to start a flame/opinion war, oh well! :-))) I wanted to hear from people who actually ride in big surf frequently, or who have found
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 4 4:19 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I was hoping not to start a flame/opinion war, oh well! :-)))
                              I wanted to hear from people who actually ride in big surf frequently, or
                              who have found themselves having to compete in large surf, when not used to
                              these conditions.
                              The opinions of people who have never faced these conditions is not wanted
                              in this thread (please), and these people will be of lower skill anyway so
                              they should always be wearing leashes and other safety gear which we all
                              know.

                              I think it is valuable to all of us to hear from these experienced big
                              wave/wind riders, there are VERY REAL SAFETY issues involved with wearing
                              leashes (board or kite) in big surf.

                              All the arguments for wearing a leash in these conditions one are flawed and
                              dangerous.

                              No other water/wind sports enthusiasts were able to enjoy the conditions we
                              had at Fingal Bay, and anyway are you guys saying wavesailors should wear
                              board leashes too??
                              There is some very limited thinking happening around this leash issue, and
                              it is very important to approach it with an open mind IMO.

                              This sport is not about sacrificing your own safety for the imagined fears
                              of others. There is no reason to not ride 15' or bigger waves if you have
                              the necessary skills and gear to do it, and after my experience in 6' surf
                              there is no way I would wear or advise anyone to wear a leash in the really
                              big conditions.

                              Some of the imaginary scenarios from the wear leashes no matter what brigade
                              are either extremely unlikely to ever occur or just simply do not occur, in
                              my experience.


                              Cya and
                              Goodwinds
                              Steve McCormack
                              http://www.kitepower.com.au
                              mailto:sydney@...
                              Open 7 days
                              126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                              Phone +61293157894

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Andre Myburgh [mailto:andrem@...]
                              Sent: 04 April, 2002 4:45 PM
                              To: 'kitesurf@yahoogroups.com'
                              Subject: RE: [ksurf] Remove the Leash


                              This sounds a bit self centered to me:

                              > However, as soon
                              > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em both.
                              > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                              > you eat it.

                              And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.

                              > I can
                              > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any damage I
                              > hope.

                              To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.

                              > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.

                              Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking out others?

                              Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a lot
                              about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch our 'safety' gear
                              to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure, if you
                              ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board leash on
                              flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in surf - if
                              you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be out. A
                              leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but yourself.

                              My thoughts, flame away...

                              André

                              <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • callum_downie
                              The person who suggested wearing a board leash in sizable surf has got to be kidding. I m sorry but that is close to the worst piece of adivse I think I have
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 4 4:47 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The person who suggested wearing a board leash in sizable surf has
                                got to be kidding. I'm sorry but that is close to the worst piece of
                                adivse I think I have sceen on this group.

                                A few weeks ago now I had the unfortunate pleasure? of having a
                                fellow rider ask for me to look at the top of his head and advise him
                                of how bad the gash in his head was. Lets just say I almost threw
                                up. He got hit by his board beacause he came off in the surf line
                                and his kite dragged him downwind toward the beach when he came off -
                                as kites do. This has put his board right between him and the next
                                set wave and of course when the wave hit it has thrown the board
                                right at him. This was in a nasty 6-8ft swell, nasty because it was
                                heaving up of a shallow sand bank producing a nasty dumping wave.

                                And then there is the danger of the board leash wrapping around you
                                if you are in getting tossed around in the breaking wave. I have had
                                this experience, as i have written here before, I had the leaders of
                                my kite around my legs and the board leash nicely got wrapped around
                                my neck. I was this '' close to giving up kiting after that little
                                episode (obviously glad I didn't!).

                                Look at these two incidents, imagine being part of them either in the
                                first person or not. NOW advise me that I should put a leash back on
                                my board.
                                And before you say what if in the first incident he hadn't had a
                                leash and the board had hit another water user. For one, the board is
                                unlikly to do that because it's not likely to end up directly between
                                someone and a wave the reason it ends up there for a rider is beacuse
                                the leash effectivly pulls the board into that position.
                                And very unlikely in those conditions, there was 4 kites out and
                                about 6 surfers on another break a little way away, I didn't see
                                another person in the water.

                                There is no question what so ever that the board leash is a bad idea
                                in sizable surf.
                                The only question is, what about the kite leash...

                                Callum



                                --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                > I was hoping not to start a flame/opinion war, oh well! :-)))
                                > I wanted to hear from people who actually ride in big surf
                                frequently, or
                                > who have found themselves having to compete in large surf, when not
                                used to
                                > these conditions.
                                > The opinions of people who have never faced these conditions is not
                                wanted
                                > in this thread (please), and these people will be of lower skill
                                anyway so
                                > they should always be wearing leashes and other safety gear which
                                we all
                                > know.
                                >
                                > I think it is valuable to all of us to hear from these experienced
                                big
                                > wave/wind riders, there are VERY REAL SAFETY issues involved with
                                wearing
                                > leashes (board or kite) in big surf.
                                >
                                > All the arguments for wearing a leash in these conditions one are
                                flawed and
                                > dangerous.
                                >
                                > No other water/wind sports enthusiasts were able to enjoy the
                                conditions we
                                > had at Fingal Bay, and anyway are you guys saying wavesailors
                                should wear
                                > board leashes too??
                                > There is some very limited thinking happening around this leash
                                issue, and
                                > it is very important to approach it with an open mind IMO.
                                >
                                > This sport is not about sacrificing your own safety for the
                                imagined fears
                                > of others. There is no reason to not ride 15' or bigger waves if
                                you have
                                > the necessary skills and gear to do it, and after my experience in
                                6' surf
                                > there is no way I would wear or advise anyone to wear a leash in
                                the really
                                > big conditions.
                                >
                                > Some of the imaginary scenarios from the wear leashes no matter
                                what brigade
                                > are either extremely unlikely to ever occur or just simply do not
                                occur, in
                                > my experience.
                                >
                                >
                                > Cya and
                                > Goodwinds
                                > Steve McCormack
                                > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                > mailto:sydney@k...
                                > Open 7 days
                                > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                                > Phone +61293157894
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Andre Myburgh [mailto:andrem@c...]
                                > Sent: 04 April, 2002 4:45 PM
                                > To: 'kitesurf@y...'
                                > Subject: RE: [ksurf] Remove the Leash
                                >
                                >
                                > This sounds a bit self centered to me:
                                >
                                > > However, as soon
                                > > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em
                                both.
                                > > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                                > > you eat it.
                                >
                                > And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.
                                >
                                > > I can
                                > > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any
                                damage I
                                > > hope.
                                >
                                > To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.
                                >
                                > > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.
                                >
                                > Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking
                                out others?
                                >
                                > Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a
                                lot
                                > about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch
                                our 'safety' gear
                                > to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure,
                                if you
                                > ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board
                                leash on
                                > flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in
                                surf - if
                                > you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be
                                out. A
                                > leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but
                                yourself.
                                >
                                > My thoughts, flame away...
                                >
                                > André
                                >
                                > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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