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Remove the Leash

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  • agraceafc
    Remove the leash!!! I have been following with interest the recent debates on Leash-less kites and thought I would add my some further topical information on
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 31, 2002
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      Remove the leash!!!

      I have been following with interest the recent debates on Leash-less
      kites and thought I would add my some further topical information on
      the issue. Other forums have started to discuss if there is the need
      for a permanent safety leash systems and there has been some very
      good suggestions on the logical use of a Rider leash-less systems at.
      (http://star-board.com/kitediv02/forum/forum.asp) look up the posting
      on shackles.

      I noted Dwight first introduced this topic a few weeks back and got
      slammed for suggesting Leash-less riding but my suggestion is that
      blanked outright rejection of the suggestion is born out of ignorance
      rather than constructive thought on the matter. I propose the
      following circumstances where it is acceptable to use a leash-less
      system. Now before anyone decides to post back replies that this is
      irresponsible to suggest this because Newbies may be reading this, I
      would just like to point out that this site is a discussion forum and
      really the beginner to the sport should be subscribing to other web
      sites that are dedicated to learning the great sport of Kite Boarding
      and should read this in the context of discussion forum not a
      biblical commandment of Kite Boarding safety.

      Acceptable Leash-less practices:
      1)The Kite boarder is permanently Hooked in
      2)The Kite boarder is an Experienced rider (that is to say not a
      beginner learning the sport but someone that has logged over 500 kite
      hours.
      3)A removable safely leash is used on Launching and Landing

      Assumptions: Most Kite problems that would require the activation of
      the safety Leash system occur on Launching and Landing situations. (
      IMO)

      Most riders that I have come across including myself in recent times
      use a permanently hooked in system, snap release system or similar.
      With this in mind the concept of a Safety leash becomes a redundant
      peace of equipment and even becomes dangerous in some cases once
      multiple spins are performed on a regular basis during jumps. I have
      experienced the leash wrapping around the middle leader lines and
      breaking rendering the whole de-power system useless in the past.

      Now if we go back into the history of why the Leash was developed it
      was to prevent the early 2 line kites from blowing down the beach,
      rider-less out of control. Two line kites were never flown
      permanently hooked-in, the case today is that many 4 line riders
      today are riding permanently hooked into their kite. The main point
      to note is that this sport is changing quickly and I believe we need
      to constantly access why we do a certain procedure, use particular
      equipment. Its my opinion that we have developed a double condom
      attitude to this sport in regards to the safety leash systems
      currently employed. Why are we hooking ourselves in TWICE when once
      is more that sufficient. At this point I will not go into detail of
      the system I use as most experience boarders reading this will have a
      fairly good idea of the system anyway. By riding free without a leash
      you will enjoy you Kite Boarding a great deal more and still be able
      to provide for safety situation on Launch and Landings but using a
      removable leash system. Romove that each condom from your
      equipment.....


      cheers and goodwinds
      Drew
    • cfglazier
      Drew I agree with you. I ride shackled in now and when I am safely out on the water, I remove my leash and tie it to my bar. Then I put my leash back on before
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 1, 2002
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        Drew
        I agree with you. I ride shackled in now and when I am safely out on
        the water, I remove my leash and tie it to my bar. Then I put my
        leash back on before landing.
        I have tried some spinning leash systems from this forum but I found
        situations when the leash became dangerously wrapped up after a
        spin. Removing the leash is safer. (This only applies for
        experienced kitesurfers who are doing spins.)
        I would be interested in the details on anyone's removable
        leash ..like where do you keep it and how do you clip it on.

        Chris G

        --- In kitesurf@y..., "agraceafc" <agraceafc@b...> wrote:
        > Remove the leash!!!
        >
        > I have been following with interest the recent debates on Leash-
        less
        > kites and thought I would add my some further topical information
        on
        > the issue. Other forums have started to discuss if there is the
        need
        > for a permanent safety leash systems and there has been some very
        > good suggestions on the logical use of a Rider leash-less systems
        at.
        > (http://star-board.com/kitediv02/forum/forum.asp) look up the
        posting
        > on shackles.
        >
        > I noted Dwight first introduced this topic a few weeks back and
        got
        > slammed for suggesting Leash-less riding but my suggestion is that
        > blanked outright rejection of the suggestion is born out of
        ignorance
        > rather than constructive thought on the matter. I propose the
        > following circumstances where it is acceptable to use a leash-less
        > system. Now before anyone decides to post back replies that this
        is
        > irresponsible to suggest this because Newbies may be reading this,
        I
        > would just like to point out that this site is a discussion forum
        and
        > really the beginner to the sport should be subscribing to other
        web
        > sites that are dedicated to learning the great sport of Kite
        Boarding
        > and should read this in the context of discussion forum not a
        > biblical commandment of Kite Boarding safety.
        >
        > Acceptable Leash-less practices:
        > 1)The Kite boarder is permanently Hooked in
        > 2)The Kite boarder is an Experienced rider (that is to say not a
        > beginner learning the sport but someone that has logged over 500
        kite
        > hours.
        > 3)A removable safely leash is used on Launching and Landing
        >
        > Assumptions: Most Kite problems that would require the activation
        of
        > the safety Leash system occur on Launching and Landing situations.
        (
        > IMO)
        >
        > Most riders that I have come across including myself in recent
        times
        > use a permanently hooked in system, snap release system or
        similar.
        > With this in mind the concept of a Safety leash becomes a
        redundant
        > peace of equipment and even becomes dangerous in some cases once
        > multiple spins are performed on a regular basis during jumps. I
        have
        > experienced the leash wrapping around the middle leader lines
        and
        > breaking rendering the whole de-power system useless in the past.
        >
        > Now if we go back into the history of why the Leash was developed
        it
        > was to prevent the early 2 line kites from blowing down the beach,
        > rider-less out of control. Two line kites were never flown
        > permanently hooked-in, the case today is that many 4 line riders
        > today are riding permanently hooked into their kite. The main
        point
        > to note is that this sport is changing quickly and I believe we
        need
        > to constantly access why we do a certain procedure, use particular
        > equipment. Its my opinion that we have developed a double condom
        > attitude to this sport in regards to the safety leash systems
        > currently employed. Why are we hooking ourselves in TWICE when
        once
        > is more that sufficient. At this point I will not go into detail
        of
        > the system I use as most experience boarders reading this will
        have a
        > fairly good idea of the system anyway. By riding free without a
        leash
        > you will enjoy you Kite Boarding a great deal more and still be
        able
        > to provide for safety situation on Launch and Landings but using a
        > removable leash system. Romove that each condom from your
        > equipment.....
        >
        >
        > cheers and goodwinds
        > Drew
      • igsmith
        I snap shackle and have a removable leash. I use the airush bars, and instead of having the wrist leash connected, I end the line in an O ring. The system is
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 1, 2002
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          I snap shackle and have a removable leash. I use the airush bars, and
          instead of having the wrist leash connected, I end the line in an O
          ring.

          The system is very simple. I have a DaKine XT Seat Harness and
          attached a small O ring to the harness (through the straps). To this,
          I have a small snap shackle. Connected to the snap shackle is a small
          stretch of q power line, ending in a small carabiner. The carabiner
          attaches to the "grab leash" on the airush bar (this is a sliding bar
          safety system).

          I always launch and land with the safety connected (because I will
          not be spinning on land!!) and once I am safely away from shore, I
          unhook it and snap it to my harness. And, before I come in, I do the
          same. It takes about 2 seconds to hook and unhook. You end up with a
          loop of q power attached to you, but it never seems to get in the way.

          I do think you need a system to release from the safety, because it
          can happen that lines get all screwed up and you may need to dump the
          entire rig.


          --- In kitesurf@y..., "cfglazier" <cglazier@c...> wrote:
          > Drew
          > I agree with you. I ride shackled in now and when I am safely out
          on
          > the water, I remove my leash and tie it to my bar. Then I put my
          > leash back on before landing.
          > I have tried some spinning leash systems from this forum but I
          found
          > situations when the leash became dangerously wrapped up after a
          > spin. Removing the leash is safer. (This only applies for
          > experienced kitesurfers who are doing spins.)
          > I would be interested in the details on anyone's removable
          > leash ..like where do you keep it and how do you clip it on.
          >
          > Chris G
          >
          > --- In kitesurf@y..., "agraceafc" <agraceafc@b...> wrote:
          > > Remove the leash!!!
          > >
          > > I have been following with interest the recent debates on Leash-
          > less
          > > kites and thought I would add my some further topical information
          > on
          > > the issue. Other forums have started to discuss if there is the
          > need
          > > for a permanent safety leash systems and there has been some very
          > > good suggestions on the logical use of a Rider leash-less systems
          > at.
          > > (http://star-board.com/kitediv02/forum/forum.asp) look up the
          > posting
          > > on shackles.
          > >
          > > I noted Dwight first introduced this topic a few weeks back and
          > got
          > > slammed for suggesting Leash-less riding but my suggestion is
          that
          > > blanked outright rejection of the suggestion is born out of
          > ignorance
          > > rather than constructive thought on the matter. I propose the
          > > following circumstances where it is acceptable to use a leash-
          less
          > > system. Now before anyone decides to post back replies that this
          > is
          > > irresponsible to suggest this because Newbies may be reading
          this,
          > I
          > > would just like to point out that this site is a discussion forum
          > and
          > > really the beginner to the sport should be subscribing to other
          > web
          > > sites that are dedicated to learning the great sport of Kite
          > Boarding
          > > and should read this in the context of discussion forum not a
          > > biblical commandment of Kite Boarding safety.
          > >
          > > Acceptable Leash-less practices:
          > > 1)The Kite boarder is permanently Hooked in
          > > 2)The Kite boarder is an Experienced rider (that is to say not a
          > > beginner learning the sport but someone that has logged over 500
          > kite
          > > hours.
          > > 3)A removable safely leash is used on Launching and Landing
          > >
          > > Assumptions: Most Kite problems that would require the activation
          > of
          > > the safety Leash system occur on Launching and Landing
          situations.
          > (
          > > IMO)
          > >
          > > Most riders that I have come across including myself in recent
          > times
          > > use a permanently hooked in system, snap release system or
          > similar.
          > > With this in mind the concept of a Safety leash becomes a
          > redundant
          > > peace of equipment and even becomes dangerous in some cases once
          > > multiple spins are performed on a regular basis during jumps. I
          > have
          > > experienced the leash wrapping around the middle leader lines
          > and
          > > breaking rendering the whole de-power system useless in the
          past.
          > >
          > > Now if we go back into the history of why the Leash was developed
          > it
          > > was to prevent the early 2 line kites from blowing down the
          beach,
          > > rider-less out of control. Two line kites were never flown
          > > permanently hooked-in, the case today is that many 4 line riders
          > > today are riding permanently hooked into their kite. The main
          > point
          > > to note is that this sport is changing quickly and I believe we
          > need
          > > to constantly access why we do a certain procedure, use
          particular
          > > equipment. Its my opinion that we have developed a double condom
          > > attitude to this sport in regards to the safety leash systems
          > > currently employed. Why are we hooking ourselves in TWICE when
          > once
          > > is more that sufficient. At this point I will not go into detail
          > of
          > > the system I use as most experience boarders reading this will
          > have a
          > > fairly good idea of the system anyway. By riding free without a
          > leash
          > > you will enjoy you Kite Boarding a great deal more and still be
          > able
          > > to provide for safety situation on Launch and Landings but using
          a
          > > removable leash system. Romove that each condom from your
          > > equipment.....
          > >
          > >
          > > cheers and goodwinds
          > > Drew
        • peter_frank_dk
          I ride with the leash hooked, now and then - but normally without. But I always hook the leash on, when starting at dangerous places (rocks, stones, boats to
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 1, 2002
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            I ride with the leash hooked, now and then - but normally without.

            But I always hook the leash on, when starting at "dangerous" places
            (rocks, stones, boats to the leeward), and then usually dehook when
            in the water.

            Now I just use the std. Wipika plastic clip. Hook it into a ring on
            my trapeze, and then on the clip on the bar, when on the water.
            And I just take it one more time around the center lines, when
            dehooking on the water, so it won't dangle and your board can't get
            caught when doing deadmans or something else "upside down".

            I was amazed how much load these plastic things can take - they look
            so "cheap" (and I think they are...), but works really good.

            Leashes can only be mounted on the trapeze, in order to not disturb
            too much, IMO. Hand leashes can not be used.

            Today I don't mind using the leash that much, because it seems easy
            to just make a few reverse double or single spins, or change
            direction and make some new spins to untwist.
            In fact I found that it is a good excersize - otherwise you tend to
            do your Favorite trick/spins most of the time - and you get worse and
            worse on your "bad" directions because they are not practiced !

            If you have to make the untwists when almost forced to, instead of
            just spinning the bar - you'll get better as a kiter IMO !

            Just my experiences.

            :-) Peter Frank


            --- In kitesurf@y..., "cfglazier" <cglazier@c...> wrote:
            > Drew
            > I agree with you. I ride shackled in now and when I am safely out
            on
            > the water, I remove my leash and tie it to my bar. Then I put my
            > leash back on before landing.
            > I have tried some spinning leash systems from this forum but I
            found
            > situations when the leash became dangerously wrapped up after a
            > spin. Removing the leash is safer. (This only applies for
            > experienced kitesurfers who are doing spins.)
            > I would be interested in the details on anyone's removable
            > leash ..like where do you keep it and how do you clip it on.
            >
            > Chris G
            >
            > --- In kitesurf@y..., "agraceafc" <agraceafc@b...> wrote:
            > > Remove the leash!!!
            > >
            > > I have been following with interest the recent debates on Leash-
            > less
            > > kites and thought I would add my some further topical information
            > on
            > > the issue. Other forums have started to discuss if there is the
            > need
            > > for a permanent safety leash systems and there has been some very
            > > good suggestions on the logical use of a Rider leash-less systems
            > at.
            > > (http://star-board.com/kitediv02/forum/forum.asp) look up the
            > posting
            > > on shackles.
            > >
            > > I noted Dwight first introduced this topic a few weeks back and
            > got
            > > slammed for suggesting Leash-less riding but my suggestion is
            that
            > > blanked outright rejection of the suggestion is born out of
            > ignorance
            > > rather than constructive thought on the matter. I propose the
            > > following circumstances where it is acceptable to use a leash-
            less
            > > system. Now before anyone decides to post back replies that this
            > is
            > > irresponsible to suggest this because Newbies may be reading
            this,
            > I
            > > would just like to point out that this site is a discussion forum
            > and
            > > really the beginner to the sport should be subscribing to other
            > web
            > > sites that are dedicated to learning the great sport of Kite
            > Boarding
            > > and should read this in the context of discussion forum not a
            > > biblical commandment of Kite Boarding safety.
            > >
            > > Acceptable Leash-less practices:
            > > 1)The Kite boarder is permanently Hooked in
            > > 2)The Kite boarder is an Experienced rider (that is to say not a
            > > beginner learning the sport but someone that has logged over 500
            > kite
            > > hours.
            > > 3)A removable safely leash is used on Launching and Landing
            > >
            > > Assumptions: Most Kite problems that would require the activation
            > of
            > > the safety Leash system occur on Launching and Landing
            situations.
            > (
            > > IMO)
            > >
            > > Most riders that I have come across including myself in recent
            > times
            > > use a permanently hooked in system, snap release system or
            > similar.
            > > With this in mind the concept of a Safety leash becomes a
            > redundant
            > > peace of equipment and even becomes dangerous in some cases once
            > > multiple spins are performed on a regular basis during jumps. I
            > have
            > > experienced the leash wrapping around the middle leader lines
            > and
            > > breaking rendering the whole de-power system useless in the
            past.
            > >
            > > Now if we go back into the history of why the Leash was developed
            > it
            > > was to prevent the early 2 line kites from blowing down the
            beach,
            > > rider-less out of control. Two line kites were never flown
            > > permanently hooked-in, the case today is that many 4 line riders
            > > today are riding permanently hooked into their kite. The main
            > point
            > > to note is that this sport is changing quickly and I believe we
            > need
            > > to constantly access why we do a certain procedure, use
            particular
            > > equipment. Its my opinion that we have developed a double condom
            > > attitude to this sport in regards to the safety leash systems
            > > currently employed. Why are we hooking ourselves in TWICE when
            > once
            > > is more that sufficient. At this point I will not go into detail
            > of
            > > the system I use as most experience boarders reading this will
            > have a
            > > fairly good idea of the system anyway. By riding free without a
            > leash
            > > you will enjoy you Kite Boarding a great deal more and still be
            > able
            > > to provide for safety situation on Launch and Landings but using
            a
            > > removable leash system. Romove that each condom from your
            > > equipment.....
            > >
            > >
            > > cheers and goodwinds
            > > Drew
          • kiteboard2000
            ... This still endangers anybody unlucky enough to be downwind of you on the water, & is also not the best for onshore conditions (endangering those on shore).
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 1, 2002
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              --- In kitesurf@y..., "igsmith" <igsmith@y...> wrote:

              > I snap shackle and have a removable leash. ...
              > I always launch and land with the safety connected (because I will
              > not be spinning on land!!) and once I am safely away from shore, I
              > unhook it and snap it to my harness.

              This still endangers anybody unlucky enough to be downwind of you on
              the water, & is also not the best for onshore conditions (endangering
              those on shore). If you want nothing on your wrist, nothing that
              won't spin, nothing that gets in the way, nothing that you have to
              try to grab to retain your kite, but something to always keep you,
              your kite, & other people safe when you have to release it, check out
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/
              scroll down & click "Mel's Stuff" then "MelMods", then "Mel's
              Mounting Methods" & there's a photo of a spinning leash system.

              It's shown on a "line rlease" shackle (Wichard 2673) but also works
              with any "trigger" shackle (like a Tylaska T-8).

              If you don't want to pay $40 for a bungied SlingShot leash (or make
              your own) the plain black leash line shown simply droops down a
              little below the bar, & doesn't get in the way of a harness line
              (just feed the leash through the harness line's loop, if you use one).

              If you already have a shackle which doesn't have the "extra" fixed
              opening (like the Wichard or Tylaska) then you can just attach a $12
              plain swivel from West Marine to the spreader, and attach the leash &
              shackle to the other side of the swivel. IF your shackle has a
              welded release ring, some riders attach the leash to it (or replace
              it with a loop of stainless sailboat rigging cable, before attaching
              the leash).

              Mel
            • peter_frank_dk
              Thats right - be sure to have some safety release on the safety leash (am I drunk ? - it sounds funny - try to say it fast...) A simple snap shackle into a
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 1, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Thats right - be sure to have some safety release on the safety leash
                (am I drunk ? - it sounds funny - try to say it fast...)
                A simple snap shackle into a ring in a normal safety release system
                on your trapeze (I think all brands are making them now).
                Easy and effective !

                :-) Peter

                --- In kitesurf@y..., "igsmith" <igsmith@y...> wrote:
                > I snap shackle and have a removable leash. I use the airush bars,
                and
                > instead of having the wrist leash connected, I end the line in an O
                > ring.
                >
                > The system is very simple. I have a DaKine XT Seat Harness and
                > attached a small O ring to the harness (through the straps). To
                this,
                > I have a small snap shackle. Connected to the snap shackle is a
                small
                > stretch of q power line, ending in a small carabiner. The carabiner
                > attaches to the "grab leash" on the airush bar (this is a sliding
                bar
                > safety system).
                >
                > I always launch and land with the safety connected (because I will
                > not be spinning on land!!) and once I am safely away from shore, I
                > unhook it and snap it to my harness. And, before I come in, I do
                the
                > same. It takes about 2 seconds to hook and unhook. You end up with
                a
                > loop of q power attached to you, but it never seems to get in the
                way.
                >
                > I do think you need a system to release from the safety, because it
                > can happen that lines get all screwed up and you may need to dump
                the
                > entire rig.
                >
                >
                > --- In kitesurf@y..., "cfglazier" <cglazier@c...> wrote:
                > > Drew
                > > I agree with you. I ride shackled in now and when I am safely out
                > on
                > > the water, I remove my leash and tie it to my bar. Then I put my
                > > leash back on before landing.
                > > I have tried some spinning leash systems from this forum but I
                > found
                > > situations when the leash became dangerously wrapped up after a
                > > spin. Removing the leash is safer. (This only applies for
                > > experienced kitesurfers who are doing spins.)
                > > I would be interested in the details on anyone's removable
                > > leash ..like where do you keep it and how do you clip it on.
                > >
                > > Chris G
                > >
                > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "agraceafc" <agraceafc@b...> wrote:
                > > > Remove the leash!!!
                > > >
                > > > I have been following with interest the recent debates on Leash-
                > > less
                > > > kites and thought I would add my some further topical
                information
                > > on
                > > > the issue. Other forums have started to discuss if there is the
                > > need
                > > > for a permanent safety leash systems and there has been some
                very
                > > > good suggestions on the logical use of a Rider leash-less
                systems
                > > at.
                > > > (http://star-board.com/kitediv02/forum/forum.asp) look up the
                > > posting
                > > > on shackles.
                > > >
                > > > I noted Dwight first introduced this topic a few weeks back
                and
                > > got
                > > > slammed for suggesting Leash-less riding but my suggestion is
                > that
                > > > blanked outright rejection of the suggestion is born out of
                > > ignorance
                > > > rather than constructive thought on the matter. I propose the
                > > > following circumstances where it is acceptable to use a leash-
                > less
                > > > system. Now before anyone decides to post back replies that
                this
                > > is
                > > > irresponsible to suggest this because Newbies may be reading
                > this,
                > > I
                > > > would just like to point out that this site is a discussion
                forum
                > > and
                > > > really the beginner to the sport should be subscribing to
                other
                > > web
                > > > sites that are dedicated to learning the great sport of Kite
                > > Boarding
                > > > and should read this in the context of discussion forum not a
                > > > biblical commandment of Kite Boarding safety.
                > > >
                > > > Acceptable Leash-less practices:
                > > > 1)The Kite boarder is permanently Hooked in
                > > > 2)The Kite boarder is an Experienced rider (that is to say not
                a
                > > > beginner learning the sport but someone that has logged over
                500
                > > kite
                > > > hours.
                > > > 3)A removable safely leash is used on Launching and Landing
                > > >
                > > > Assumptions: Most Kite problems that would require the
                activation
                > > of
                > > > the safety Leash system occur on Launching and Landing
                > situations.
                > > (
                > > > IMO)
                > > >
                > > > Most riders that I have come across including myself in recent
                > > times
                > > > use a permanently hooked in system, snap release system or
                > > similar.
                > > > With this in mind the concept of a Safety leash becomes a
                > > redundant
                > > > peace of equipment and even becomes dangerous in some cases
                once
                > > > multiple spins are performed on a regular basis during jumps. I
                > > have
                > > > experienced the leash wrapping around the middle leader lines
                > > and
                > > > breaking rendering the whole de-power system useless in the
                > past.
                > > >
                > > > Now if we go back into the history of why the Leash was
                developed
                > > it
                > > > was to prevent the early 2 line kites from blowing down the
                > beach,
                > > > rider-less out of control. Two line kites were never flown
                > > > permanently hooked-in, the case today is that many 4 line
                riders
                > > > today are riding permanently hooked into their kite. The main
                > > point
                > > > to note is that this sport is changing quickly and I believe we
                > > need
                > > > to constantly access why we do a certain procedure, use
                > particular
                > > > equipment. Its my opinion that we have developed a double
                condom
                > > > attitude to this sport in regards to the safety leash systems
                > > > currently employed. Why are we hooking ourselves in TWICE when
                > > once
                > > > is more that sufficient. At this point I will not go into
                detail
                > > of
                > > > the system I use as most experience boarders reading this will
                > > have a
                > > > fairly good idea of the system anyway. By riding free without a
                > > leash
                > > > you will enjoy you Kite Boarding a great deal more and still be
                > > able
                > > > to provide for safety situation on Launch and Landings but
                using
                > a
                > > > removable leash system. Romove that each condom from your
                > > > equipment.....
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > cheers and goodwinds
                > > > Drew
              • kiteboard2000
                ... found ... So wrapped that it wouldn t release? Have you tested it when wrapped? I was a bit surprised at the perfect function of my wrapped lines, when
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 1, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "cfglazier" <cglazier@c...> wrote:

                  > I have tried some spinning leash systems from this forum but I
                  found
                  > situations when the leash became dangerously wrapped up after a
                  > spin.

                  So wrapped that it wouldn't release? Have you tested it when
                  wrapped? I was a bit surprised at the perfect function of my wrapped
                  lines, when releasing to the leash after watching my "bow-tied" arc
                  do about 6 spins (it took me that long to realize I'd have to
                  release). If it really won't release after a few spins, you could
                  maintain safety by just adding a small, plain snap shackle to the
                  leash itself (so you can release from everything in the unlikely
                  event of depower-system failure).

                  > Removing the leash is safer.

                  Maybe safer for YOU, but what about that poor sap (possibly me!)
                  riding downwind of you when somebody else runs into YOU, or you have
                  a MAJOR wipeout or line failure (requiring you to release your kite
                  into mine).

                  Mel
                • callum_downie
                  Hi Steve, Alot of the more experienced crew around here now are ditching their leashes if they re using a shackle to connect to the kite. (the guy riding the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 3, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Steve,
                    Alot of the more experienced crew around here now are ditching their
                    leashes if they're using a shackle to connect to the kite. (the guy
                    riding the 18.9 RRD that day I was at dolls point is an example).

                    For a few reasons, the surf is one, spinning and twists is another -
                    when i spin at the moment my leash becomes dangerous untill I reach
                    down and rotate my supposed swivelling snap shackle.
                    Often at the moment if we ditch a kite in the surf we disconnect from
                    it totally anyway, getting rid of the leash. Because if you have
                    tension on any one line and a wave breaks or rolls into your kite the
                    kite will more than likely blow out, if the kite is free then it
                    tumbles and goes with the wave easier. And also beacuse the kite will
                    pull you under the water when it's being hit by waves as well - as
                    you seam to have found out!!

                    I am going to change my setup so I can use the leash whilst on the
                    beach and take it off once I get in the water. You know my story
                    about getting multiple lines wrapped around myself in surf - one less
                    line as got to be a good thing as far as I am concerned.

                    Obviously there are many arguments for and against using a leash.
                    I think if the rider is experience enough and has been given
                    enough "lessons" by the kite to know his/her limits. And the
                    conditions are reasonable then I don't think it is to much of a
                    problem.

                    It's a real each to their own at the moment!

                    Catch ya,
                    Callum


                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                    > Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls
                    big enough
                    > to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of
                    them
                    > removed or disabled their leashes.
                    > I wanted to hear from people who do go out in big surf (+10 foot
                    faces) what
                    > they feel about leashes in big surf, and at comps.
                    > I have been caught in 1.5M surf and crashed the kite to find myself
                    being
                    > towed underwater, released the bar and was still being dragged but
                    I was
                    > mostly able to keep my head above the water, towards the end of my
                    200M
                    > dragging, I had to release the kite altogether as it was dragging
                    so much I
                    > could not keep my head above the water, and I was wearing an
                    > impact/flotation vest. It is not something I want to repeat very
                    often!
                    >
                    > Cya and
                    > Goodwinds
                    > Steve McCormack
                    > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                    > mailto:sydney@k...
                    > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                    > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                    > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                    > mailto:geelong@k...
                  • kitermatt
                    Hi Steve, I ride with a board and kite leash in flat water and small waves all the time. I am a big advocate of leashes. However, as soon as the surf gets to
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 3, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Steve,
                      I ride with a board and kite leash in flat water and small
                      waves all the time. I am a big advocate of leashes. However, as soon
                      as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em both.
                      In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when you eat it.
                      Plus, your board will wash in and you can body drag to it. Similarly,
                      if you let go of your kite in the surf you usually mean to to do that.
                      That is, if you have dropped it and are getting dragged you. I can
                      then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any damage I
                      hope. There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound. The
                      leash is more to tangle in as well. That's dangerous.
                      Matt

                      --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                      > Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls big
                      enough
                      > to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of
                      them
                      > removed or disabled their leashes.
                      > I wanted to hear from people who do go out in big surf (+10 foot
                      faces) what
                      > they feel about leashes in big surf, and at comps.
                      > I have been caught in 1.5M surf and crashed the kite to find myself
                      being
                      > towed underwater, released the bar and was still being dragged but I
                      was
                      > mostly able to keep my head above the water, towards the end of my
                      200M
                      > dragging, I had to release the kite altogether as it was dragging so
                      much I
                      > could not keep my head above the water, and I was wearing an
                      > impact/flotation vest. It is not something I want to repeat very
                      often!
                      >
                      > Cya and
                      > Goodwinds
                      > Steve McCormack
                      > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                      > mailto:sydney@k...
                      > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                      > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                      > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                      > mailto:geelong@k...
                    • Andre Myburgh
                      ... And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you. ... To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it. ... Lucky you. If not, would it
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 3, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        This sounds a bit self centered to me:

                        > However, as soon
                        > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em both.
                        > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                        > you eat it.

                        And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.

                        > I can
                        > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any damage I
                        > hope.

                        To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.

                        > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.

                        Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking out others?

                        Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a lot
                        about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch our 'safety' gear
                        to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure, if you
                        ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board leash on
                        flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in surf - if
                        you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be out. A
                        leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but yourself.

                        My thoughts, flame away...

                        André
                      • kiteboard2000
                        ... No flame from me. I couldn t agree more (unless there s never anybody but alert, experienced kiteboarders in the path of the released kite). Mel
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:

                          > This sounds a bit self centered to me...
                          > ...sounds dangerous to everybody but yourself.
                          >
                          > My thoughts, flame away...

                          No flame from me. I couldn't agree more (unless there's never
                          anybody but alert, experienced kiteboarders in the path of the
                          released kite).

                          Mel
                        • Kitepower
                          Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls big enough to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of them removed or
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Sorry to dredge this up, but in talking to the riders with balls big enough
                            to go out at Fingal Bay at Easter, I discovered virtually all of them
                            removed or disabled their leashes.
                            I wanted to hear from people who do go out in big surf (+10 foot faces) what
                            they feel about leashes in big surf, and at comps.
                            I have been caught in 1.5M surf and crashed the kite to find myself being
                            towed underwater, released the bar and was still being dragged but I was
                            mostly able to keep my head above the water, towards the end of my 200M
                            dragging, I had to release the kite altogether as it was dragging so much I
                            could not keep my head above the water, and I was wearing an
                            impact/flotation vest. It is not something I want to repeat very often!

                            Cya and
                            Goodwinds
                            Steve McCormack
                            http://www.kitepower.com.au
                            mailto:sydney@...
                            126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                            Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                            Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                            mailto:geelong@...
                          • kitermatt
                            Hi Andre, ... both. ... Uh, when it s blowing over 15 knots there is no one surfing. Also, the water is 48-52 degrees F so no one is swimming. The beach where
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
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                              Hi Andre,
                              My comments inline below:

                              --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
                              > This sounds a bit self centered to me:
                              >
                              > > However, as soon
                              > > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em
                              both.
                              > > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                              > > you eat it.
                              >
                              > And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.

                              Uh, when it's blowing over 15 knots there is no one surfing. Also, the
                              water is 48-52 degrees F so no one is swimming. The beach where I go
                              when it's big is in Northern California and it's not a place where
                              people just go to hang out on a windy day. The only people in the
                              water are other kiters, and only a few of them at that. It's not like
                              it's some town beach where people are hanging out. Also, it's a
                              well-defined point break, so the only people in the waves are riding,
                              while everyone kiting back out is in the channel downwind. Kites don't
                              wash in through the channel. They wash in on the point where no one is
                              kiting out.

                              >
                              > > I can
                              > > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any
                              damage I
                              > > hope.
                              >
                              > To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.
                              >
                              > > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.
                              >
                              > Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking out
                              others?

                              Nope. I have seen kites wash in many times, and they just get worked
                              and wrapped up in the shorepound for minutes on end. We have a rip
                              current that even takes them back out sometimes. Also, the wind is
                              dead sideshore so kites don't blow onto the beach. We have a
                              tight-knit crew here so we are all looking out for each other,
                              grabbing kites. This kind of environment makes it easier to use kites
                              with a leashless system. Don't you think I would have thought about
                              the kind of environment where I kite before using a leashless system -
                              empty beach, sideshore wind, other kiter friends on the beach, in big
                              waves only. This works here, but may not apply where you kite.

                              Additionally, when your kite goes down in surf and gets dragged by a
                              wave, this will almost always break your kite leash. So the situation
                              is the same, whether you use a kite leash or not. Dropping your kite
                              in big surf = swimming in after it. If this did not happen I would use
                              a kite leash.

                              >
                              > Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a
                              lot
                              > about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch our
                              'safety' gear
                              > to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure,
                              if you
                              > ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board
                              leash on
                              > flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in
                              surf - if
                              > you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be out.

                              Uh, not really. In our so-called "flat" water, using a board leash,
                              at least around here, is desirable, because there is always windswell
                              and you can't see your board many times after you eat it. I choose to
                              use a board leash, and some others don't when the surf is small. It
                              works either way.
                              However, in surf, the board leash is a liability. I have had it wrap
                              around me and go through my kite lines, as well as having the board
                              wash over me in waves. I have surfed for many years, on waves bigger
                              than you have even thought about getting into, and I use a surfboard
                              leash to surf. But on a kite, the board leash is not helpful in bigger
                              surf.

                              A
                              > leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but
                              yourself.

                              When your kite leash breaks in big surf when you drop your kite,
                              you're leashless anyway.

                              >
                              > My thoughts, flame away...

                              No flames. I just think you need to try kiting in big waves yourself
                              before making posts like this. From your post, I can tell that you
                              haven't done it. Also, your local beach and people conditions factor
                              into the leash decisions.

                              Shred on,
                              Matt

                              >
                              > André
                            • Andre Myburgh
                              ... That s true - biggest kitesurfing was 4ft max, but I have surfed 8ft, and can imagine you don t want to be attached to anything when wiping in that. ... So
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > No flames. I just think you need to try kiting in big waves yourself
                                > before making posts like this. From your post, I can tell that you
                                > haven't done it.

                                That's true - biggest kitesurfing was 4ft max, but I have surfed 8ft, and
                                can imagine you don't want to be attached to anything when wiping in that.

                                > Also, your local beach and people conditions factor
                                > into the leash decisions.

                                So we agree then, > "Sure, if you ride at an empty beach, that's fine"

                                PS. What kites do you use that survives "6-8 foot" waves?


                                Cheers

                                André


                                >
                                > Shred on,
                                > Matt
                                >
                                > >
                                > > André
                                >
                                >
                                > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to
                                > kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                              • kitermatt
                                Hi Andre, Yes, we definitely agree. Not using kite leashes are ONLY ok at an empty beach, preferably while using a snap shackle. As far as what I ride that
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Andre,
                                  Yes, we definitely agree. Not using kite leashes are ONLY ok at an
                                  empty beach, preferably while using a snap shackle. As far as what I
                                  ride that survives overhead surf, believe it or not I use Air Blasts.
                                  I have broken the leash and ripped out the pigtails on one side. The
                                  real key is to not drop your kite :-). One reason the no-leash thing
                                  is ok at our beach is that no one really drops their kites in the surf
                                  that often, so it hasn't been an issue. Maybe once every few weeks
                                  someone will drop a kite and have to swim in after it. I've dropped
                                  mine 2 times in the surf in the last year and had to swim in. But
                                  yeah, keep the kite dry and all is good.
                                  We had double-triple overhead waves here 3 weeks ago in powered up
                                  11.5 wind. That's huge waves for a kite, but our local crew did well.
                                  I saw Peter Schiebel, owner of Caution Kites, on like a 20 ft. face.
                                  Wave of the day. Nuts!
                                  Take care mon,
                                  Matt

                                  --- In kitesurf@y..., Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > No flames. I just think you need to try kiting in big waves
                                  yourself
                                  > > before making posts like this. From your post, I can tell that you
                                  > > haven't done it.
                                  >
                                  > That's true - biggest kitesurfing was 4ft max, but I have surfed
                                  8ft, and
                                  > can imagine you don't want to be attached to anything when wiping in
                                  that.
                                  >
                                  > > Also, your local beach and people conditions factor
                                  > > into the leash decisions.
                                  >
                                  > So we agree then, > "Sure, if you ride at an empty beach, that's
                                  fine"
                                  >
                                  > PS. What kites do you use that survives "6-8 foot" waves?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Cheers
                                  >
                                  > André
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > Shred on,
                                  > > Matt
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > André
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to
                                  > > kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                • Kitepower
                                  I was hoping not to start a flame/opinion war, oh well! :-))) I wanted to hear from people who actually ride in big surf frequently, or who have found
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I was hoping not to start a flame/opinion war, oh well! :-)))
                                    I wanted to hear from people who actually ride in big surf frequently, or
                                    who have found themselves having to compete in large surf, when not used to
                                    these conditions.
                                    The opinions of people who have never faced these conditions is not wanted
                                    in this thread (please), and these people will be of lower skill anyway so
                                    they should always be wearing leashes and other safety gear which we all
                                    know.

                                    I think it is valuable to all of us to hear from these experienced big
                                    wave/wind riders, there are VERY REAL SAFETY issues involved with wearing
                                    leashes (board or kite) in big surf.

                                    All the arguments for wearing a leash in these conditions one are flawed and
                                    dangerous.

                                    No other water/wind sports enthusiasts were able to enjoy the conditions we
                                    had at Fingal Bay, and anyway are you guys saying wavesailors should wear
                                    board leashes too??
                                    There is some very limited thinking happening around this leash issue, and
                                    it is very important to approach it with an open mind IMO.

                                    This sport is not about sacrificing your own safety for the imagined fears
                                    of others. There is no reason to not ride 15' or bigger waves if you have
                                    the necessary skills and gear to do it, and after my experience in 6' surf
                                    there is no way I would wear or advise anyone to wear a leash in the really
                                    big conditions.

                                    Some of the imaginary scenarios from the wear leashes no matter what brigade
                                    are either extremely unlikely to ever occur or just simply do not occur, in
                                    my experience.


                                    Cya and
                                    Goodwinds
                                    Steve McCormack
                                    http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                    mailto:sydney@...
                                    Open 7 days
                                    126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                                    Phone +61293157894

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Andre Myburgh [mailto:andrem@...]
                                    Sent: 04 April, 2002 4:45 PM
                                    To: 'kitesurf@yahoogroups.com'
                                    Subject: RE: [ksurf] Remove the Leash


                                    This sounds a bit self centered to me:

                                    > However, as soon
                                    > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em both.
                                    > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                                    > you eat it.

                                    And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.

                                    > I can
                                    > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any damage I
                                    > hope.

                                    To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.

                                    > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.

                                    Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking out others?

                                    Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a lot
                                    about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch our 'safety' gear
                                    to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure, if you
                                    ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board leash on
                                    flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in surf - if
                                    you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be out. A
                                    leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but yourself.

                                    My thoughts, flame away...

                                    André

                                    <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

                                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  • callum_downie
                                    The person who suggested wearing a board leash in sizable surf has got to be kidding. I m sorry but that is close to the worst piece of adivse I think I have
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Apr 4, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      The person who suggested wearing a board leash in sizable surf has
                                      got to be kidding. I'm sorry but that is close to the worst piece of
                                      adivse I think I have sceen on this group.

                                      A few weeks ago now I had the unfortunate pleasure? of having a
                                      fellow rider ask for me to look at the top of his head and advise him
                                      of how bad the gash in his head was. Lets just say I almost threw
                                      up. He got hit by his board beacause he came off in the surf line
                                      and his kite dragged him downwind toward the beach when he came off -
                                      as kites do. This has put his board right between him and the next
                                      set wave and of course when the wave hit it has thrown the board
                                      right at him. This was in a nasty 6-8ft swell, nasty because it was
                                      heaving up of a shallow sand bank producing a nasty dumping wave.

                                      And then there is the danger of the board leash wrapping around you
                                      if you are in getting tossed around in the breaking wave. I have had
                                      this experience, as i have written here before, I had the leaders of
                                      my kite around my legs and the board leash nicely got wrapped around
                                      my neck. I was this '' close to giving up kiting after that little
                                      episode (obviously glad I didn't!).

                                      Look at these two incidents, imagine being part of them either in the
                                      first person or not. NOW advise me that I should put a leash back on
                                      my board.
                                      And before you say what if in the first incident he hadn't had a
                                      leash and the board had hit another water user. For one, the board is
                                      unlikly to do that because it's not likely to end up directly between
                                      someone and a wave the reason it ends up there for a rider is beacuse
                                      the leash effectivly pulls the board into that position.
                                      And very unlikely in those conditions, there was 4 kites out and
                                      about 6 surfers on another break a little way away, I didn't see
                                      another person in the water.

                                      There is no question what so ever that the board leash is a bad idea
                                      in sizable surf.
                                      The only question is, what about the kite leash...

                                      Callum



                                      --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                      > I was hoping not to start a flame/opinion war, oh well! :-)))
                                      > I wanted to hear from people who actually ride in big surf
                                      frequently, or
                                      > who have found themselves having to compete in large surf, when not
                                      used to
                                      > these conditions.
                                      > The opinions of people who have never faced these conditions is not
                                      wanted
                                      > in this thread (please), and these people will be of lower skill
                                      anyway so
                                      > they should always be wearing leashes and other safety gear which
                                      we all
                                      > know.
                                      >
                                      > I think it is valuable to all of us to hear from these experienced
                                      big
                                      > wave/wind riders, there are VERY REAL SAFETY issues involved with
                                      wearing
                                      > leashes (board or kite) in big surf.
                                      >
                                      > All the arguments for wearing a leash in these conditions one are
                                      flawed and
                                      > dangerous.
                                      >
                                      > No other water/wind sports enthusiasts were able to enjoy the
                                      conditions we
                                      > had at Fingal Bay, and anyway are you guys saying wavesailors
                                      should wear
                                      > board leashes too??
                                      > There is some very limited thinking happening around this leash
                                      issue, and
                                      > it is very important to approach it with an open mind IMO.
                                      >
                                      > This sport is not about sacrificing your own safety for the
                                      imagined fears
                                      > of others. There is no reason to not ride 15' or bigger waves if
                                      you have
                                      > the necessary skills and gear to do it, and after my experience in
                                      6' surf
                                      > there is no way I would wear or advise anyone to wear a leash in
                                      the really
                                      > big conditions.
                                      >
                                      > Some of the imaginary scenarios from the wear leashes no matter
                                      what brigade
                                      > are either extremely unlikely to ever occur or just simply do not
                                      occur, in
                                      > my experience.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Cya and
                                      > Goodwinds
                                      > Steve McCormack
                                      > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                      > mailto:sydney@k...
                                      > Open 7 days
                                      > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                                      > Phone +61293157894
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Andre Myburgh [mailto:andrem@c...]
                                      > Sent: 04 April, 2002 4:45 PM
                                      > To: 'kitesurf@y...'
                                      > Subject: RE: [ksurf] Remove the Leash
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > This sounds a bit self centered to me:
                                      >
                                      > > However, as soon
                                      > > as the surf gets to about 6-8 foot faces and bigger I toss 'em
                                      both.
                                      > > In bigger waves, you don't want to be near your board when
                                      > > you eat it.
                                      >
                                      > And neither does anybody swimming / surfing close to you.
                                      >
                                      > > I can
                                      > > then just pop my shackle and the kite washes in, without any
                                      damage I
                                      > > hope.
                                      >
                                      > To whom, the kite or the poor doos who got in the way of it.
                                      >
                                      > > There's usually someone there to grab it in the shorepound.
                                      >
                                      > Lucky you. If not, would it not go blowing down the beach taking
                                      out others?
                                      >
                                      > Not trying to be sarcastic here, just thinking we sometimes worry a
                                      lot
                                      > about ourselves and our gear - and make changes or ditch
                                      our 'safety' gear
                                      > to gain freedom and personal safety with disregard to others. Sure,
                                      if you
                                      > ride at an empty beach, that's fine. I would say ditch the board
                                      leash on
                                      > flat water (easy to bodydrag back to it, etc.) and keep it on in
                                      surf - if
                                      > you're afraid of being hit/tangled, then maybe you shouldn't be
                                      out. A
                                      > leashless kite: I don't know, sounds dangerous to everybody but
                                      yourself.
                                      >
                                      > My thoughts, flame away...
                                      >
                                      > André
                                      >
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