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[ksurf] Re: Arc 1120 / 840 stack

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  • loco4viento
    Hey Steve, I know you didn t ask me, but good question nonetheless, and I wouldn t mind other stackers answering it too. I ve probably spent about 75-100 hours
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 2, 2002
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      Hey Steve,

      I know you didn't ask me, but good question nonetheless, and I
      wouldn't mind other stackers answering it too.

      I've probably spent about 75-100 hours kitesurfing under my 1120/840
      stack, some of it in the pre-wedge days and some of it since (maybe
      half and half???). I don't keep a close log of how many exact hours,
      but rather count by skin wrinkles, skin cancers, hair loss and
      occasionally carbon-14 dating techniques for the longer sessions.

      I've never crashed them yet and so I can't tell you about relaunch.
      But I can tell you that everything I've heard from you (collectively)
      kite guys about the stability of stacks became evident almost
      immediately during my first stack flight over a year ago. The
      1120/840 is incredibly easy to fly and more stable than I ever
      imagined.

      I occasionally read posts about the stack not flying to the edge of
      the window, but I find the stack pulls well toward the edge. My
      interpretation is that in super light winds (like when you're
      kitesurfing with a stack and a single arc wouldn't work) the apparent
      wind effects are WAY more significant than in any other situation;
      this limits upwind progress and also makes the kite appear to be
      farther back in the window, when in actuality the window is really
      shifted due to the direction of apparent wind. As a kite guy, does
      this make sense to you Steve, or do you think I'm misinterpreting my
      experiences? Anybody else?

      The relaunch issue with a stack is almost a non-issue for me since
      the stack is so incredibly stable and easy to fly. Of course, it's
      only a matter of time before I'm doing the "swim of shame" with my
      soggy 20m of ripstop, so I still only kitesurf as far as I'm willing
      to risk swimming (which is a good idea for any kitesurfing session).

      John

      --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
      > How many times have you used your kites stacked?
      > How many times would you have re-launched them off the water, in
      water too
      > deep to stand up in, and after crashing them on the water?
      > Have you ever crashed them LE down, and been able to re-launch?
      >
      >
      > Cya and
      > Goodwinds
      > Steve McCormack
      > http://www.kitepower.com.au
      > mailto:sydney@k...
      > Open 7 days
      > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
      > Phone +61293157894
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: kujira99jp [mailto:kujira99@h...]
      > Sent: 02 March, 2002 12:22 PM
      > To: kitesurf@y...
      > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Arc 1120 / 840 stack
      >
      >
      > Hi James,
      > I've used the 1120/840 combo a few times now and I am always awed by
      > the power it has. I only need enough wind to keep the kites in the
      > air, which would be around 7 knots minimum, and I can easily get
      > upwind without having to sine the stack at all. Actually it parks
      > really easily but the tendancy to 'auto zenith' is quite strong and
      I
      > have to make some effort to keep it down. Relaunch seems easier
      than
      > a single one, as the 2 kites seem to help each other get out of the
      > water! That is, unless the wind is really weak and then you're in
      > for a really shitty swim back with 20+ square metres of air
      mattress.
      > I'm definitely getting overpowered the minute I see any whitecaps,
      > even small ones, so I'd say my max is 12 knots, and at that point
      the
      > pressure on my legs is huge. I'm 58kgs and use a medium sized twin
      > tip. My stack lines are 5 metres, equal length, but my attachment
      > point on the spars are equal too- I added another attachment point
      on
      > the 1120. Works really well. Have fun but don't try and launch
      this
      > stack in 18 knots or you won't come back down!!
      > Cheers, Jason.
      >
      > --- In kitesurf@y..., "James Forster" <jamesforster@b...> wrote:
      > > Hi guys
      > > I posted a similar ? sometime ago about stacking
      > an 840 & a 630 but I never got around to it. I now have an 1120 and
      > I am looking to stack it with my 840 tomorrow (Saturday) here in
      > Perth at Pinnaroo point where 12 to 18 kt winds have been forecast.
      I
      > weigh around 68 kg and will be using a narrow directional board.
      Does
      > this mix sound about right?
      > > Will I be overpowered,be able go up wind? I assume they will have
      > to be flown completely depowered. I made up a set of 8 metre
      > stacking lines salvaged from an inversion that got ugly, using the
      > light stuff for the rears . I did'nt have enough of the heavier
      stuff
      > to make up all four lines . I'm hoping this will be ok.
      > > Your input
      > please .
      >
      > >
      > Thanks in
      > anticipation James.
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • kujira99jp
      So far I ve used this stack around 10 times I guess (only been kitesurfing for a year), and had to relaunch probably 3 or 4 times- I say relaunch because
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 2, 2002
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        So far I've used this stack around 10 times I guess (only been
        kitesurfing for a year), and had to 'relaunch' probably 3 or 4 times-
        I say 'relaunch' because it basically does it by itself, when the
        kites are in the drink they kind of hold each other's tips open and
        in a short while up it goes again. When stacking I've never had it do
        the Mexican taco thing yet. I nearly always kitesurf in water too
        deep to stand up in, that includes when I use this stack. I've never
        crashed them LE down so cannot comment on relaunchability in that
        case, I imagine it'd be pretty frustrating in such light wind
        though. As I wrote before, it takes an effort to keep it low to the
        water and I don't need to sine it at all- the times I crashed it was
        due to pilot error, I dragged a tip when trying to keep it low enough
        to prevent overpowering in around 12 knots!
        I've swum back twice with it, that was due to the wind dropping below
        the required minimum to keep it up in the air, it backed down and
        that was it, game over.
        Jason


        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
        > How many times have you used your kites stacked?
        > How many times would you have re-launched them off the water, in
        water too
        > deep to stand up in, and after crashing them on the water?
        > Have you ever crashed them LE down, and been able to re-launch?
        >
        >
        > Cya and
        > Goodwinds
        > Steve McCormack
      • Kitepower
        G day John, Jason & James I asked those questions out of curiosity and scepticism (about the relaunching)!! ;-) It think it is obvious that the crashes any of
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 2, 2002
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          G'day John, Jason & James
          I asked those questions out of curiosity and scepticism (about the
          relaunching)!! ;-)
          It think it is obvious that the crashes any of you have had where the kites
          re-launch easily is when you have just put them in on the side, not LE or TE
          down. I would say that every sled style kite, including inflatos, will
          re-launch easily from this position, provided the tips don't stick or fall
          together on the arc stack.
          I think Johns advice regarding not going further from shore than you are
          prepared to swim is very wise!

          Regarding Johns experience of light wind kiting, I think what you are
          experiencing is the fact that the real wind window shrinks in size, in light
          winds.
          You can visually see the window shrinks by flying any kite in light winds
          and see how far to either side of you, the kite will fly, put a mark in the
          sand at the angle where the kite stops or will park.
          If you were suddenly able to turn the wind up to 15 - 20 knots and fly the
          same kite, you would see that the marks in the sand would need to be moved
          much further out, good kites will give you very close to a 180 degree wind
          window.
          I hope you can understand this simple explanation?
          So anyway no kites fly to windward as well in light winds, going upwind is
          still possible, but much more difficult, if there are lulls that
          substantially lower you speed.

          I have only flown arc stacks on land on a couple of occasions, but I have
          witnessed several successful sessions. The one crash I saw the kites laid
          flat on the water and it was all over.
          I would agree that an arc stack is even more stable than a single kite, I
          think that has something to do with the auto zenithing of arcs.

          One of the reasons I asked about re-launching, and I hope you remaining
          arcers here will back me up, is that stacking should not be attempted by
          beginners who are still not confident sailors (able to self launch, water
          start, go upwind, turn without falling), agreed?


          Cya and
          Goodwinds
          Steve McCormack
          http://www.kitepower.com.au
          mailto:sydney@...
          126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
          Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
          Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
          mailto:geelong@...

          * -----Original Message-----
          * From: loco4viento [mailto:loco4viento@...]
          * Sent: Saturday, 2 March 2002 9:04
          * To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
          * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Arc 1120 / 840 stack
          *
          *
          * Hey Steve,
          *
          * I know you didn't ask me, but good question nonetheless, and I
          * wouldn't mind other stackers answering it too.
          *
          * I've probably spent about 75-100 hours kitesurfing under my 1120/840
          * stack, some of it in the pre-wedge days and some of it since (maybe
          * half and half???). I don't keep a close log of how many exact hours,
          * but rather count by skin wrinkles, skin cancers, hair loss and
          * occasionally carbon-14 dating techniques for the longer sessions.
          *
          * I've never crashed them yet and so I can't tell you about relaunch.
          * But I can tell you that everything I've heard from you (collectively)
          * kite guys about the stability of stacks became evident almost
          * immediately during my first stack flight over a year ago. The
          * 1120/840 is incredibly easy to fly and more stable than I ever
          * imagined.
          *
          * I occasionally read posts about the stack not flying to the edge of
          * the window, but I find the stack pulls well toward the edge. My
          * interpretation is that in super light winds (like when you're
          * kitesurfing with a stack and a single arc wouldn't work) the apparent
          * wind effects are WAY more significant than in any other situation;
          * this limits upwind progress and also makes the kite appear to be
          * farther back in the window, when in actuality the window is really
          * shifted due to the direction of apparent wind. As a kite guy, does
          * this make sense to you Steve, or do you think I'm misinterpreting my
          * experiences? Anybody else?
          *
          * The relaunch issue with a stack is almost a non-issue for me since
          * the stack is so incredibly stable and easy to fly. Of course, it's
          * only a matter of time before I'm doing the "swim of shame" with my
          * soggy 20m of ripstop, so I still only kitesurf as far as I'm willing
          * to risk swimming (which is a good idea for any kitesurfing session).
          *
          * John
          *
          * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
          * > How many times have you used your kites stacked?
          * > How many times would you have re-launched them off the water, in
          * water too
          * > deep to stand up in, and after crashing them on the water?
          * > Have you ever crashed them LE down, and been able to re-launch?
          * >
          * >
          * > Cya and
          * > Goodwinds
          * > Steve McCormack
          * > http://www.kitepower.com.au
          * > mailto:sydney@k...
          * > Open 7 days
          * > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
          * > Phone +61293157894
          * >
          * > -----Original Message-----
          * > From: kujira99jp [mailto:kujira99@h...]
          * > Sent: 02 March, 2002 12:22 PM
          * > To: kitesurf@y...
          * > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Arc 1120 / 840 stack
          * >
          * >
          * > Hi James,
          * > I've used the 1120/840 combo a few times now and I am always awed by
          * > the power it has. I only need enough wind to keep the kites in the
          * > air, which would be around 7 knots minimum, and I can easily get
          * > upwind without having to sine the stack at all. Actually it parks
          * > really easily but the tendancy to 'auto zenith' is quite strong and
          * I
          * > have to make some effort to keep it down. Relaunch seems easier
          * than
          * > a single one, as the 2 kites seem to help each other get out of the
          * > water! That is, unless the wind is really weak and then you're in
          * > for a really shitty swim back with 20+ square metres of air
          * mattress.
          * > I'm definitely getting overpowered the minute I see any whitecaps,
          * > even small ones, so I'd say my max is 12 knots, and at that point
          * the
          * > pressure on my legs is huge. I'm 58kgs and use a medium sized twin
          * > tip. My stack lines are 5 metres, equal length, but my attachment
          * > point on the spars are equal too- I added another attachment point
          * on
          * > the 1120. Works really well. Have fun but don't try and launch
          * this
          * > stack in 18 knots or you won't come back down!!
          * > Cheers, Jason.
          * >
          * > --- In kitesurf@y..., "James Forster" <jamesforster@b...> wrote:
          * > > Hi guys
          * > > I posted a similar ? sometime ago about stacking
          * > an 840 & a 630 but I never got around to it. I now have an 1120 and
          * > I am looking to stack it with my 840 tomorrow (Saturday) here in
          * > Perth at Pinnaroo point where 12 to 18 kt winds have been forecast.
          * I
          * > weigh around 68 kg and will be using a narrow directional board.
          * Does
          * > this mix sound about right?
          * > > Will I be overpowered,be able go up wind? I assume they will have
          * > to be flown completely depowered. I made up a set of 8 metre
          * > stacking lines salvaged from an inversion that got ugly, using the
          * > light stuff for the rears . I did'nt have enough of the heavier
          * stuff
          * > to make up all four lines . I'm hoping this will be ok.
          * > > Your input
          * > please .
          * >
          * > >
          * > Thanks in
          * > anticipation James.
          * > >
          * > >
          * > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          * >
          * >
          * > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
          * >
          * > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          * http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          *
          *
          * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
          *
          * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          *
          *
        • kujira99jp
          Agreed! Jason ... remaining ... attempted by ... water
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 2, 2002
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            Agreed!
            Jason

            > One of the reasons I asked about re-launching, and I hope you
            remaining
            > arcers here will back me up, is that stacking should not be
            attempted by
            > beginners who are still not confident sailors (able to self launch,
            water
            > start, go upwind, turn without falling), agreed?
            >
            >
            > Cya and
            > Goodwinds
            > Steve McCormack
          • darcedarce
            ... water too ... I ve flown an 840/630 stack around 10-15 times now, had to relaunch twice - both times LE down. The first time went no problems, the second
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 2, 2002
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              --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
              > How many times have you used your kites stacked?
              > How many times would you have re-launched them off the water, in
              water too
              > deep to stand up in, and after crashing them on the water?
              > Have you ever crashed them LE down, and been able to re-launch?

              I've flown an 840/630 stack around 10-15 times now, had to relaunch
              twice - both times LE down. The first time went no problems, the
              second time saw the 840 inverting before launch, but I was able to
              haul in on the front lines and get it right way up (albeit twisted
              through it's lines) and relaunch ok.

              I solo launch the kites mainly, and have found that a tip launch
              downwind works the best.
            • fernmanus
              Steve, Do you have any idea of what the aspect ratio is on the 20 M Aero? How does the responsiveness of the kite compare with the 16.4 Wipika Airblast? Thanks
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 5, 2002
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                Steve,

                Do you have any idea of what the aspect ratio is on the 20 M Aero?

                How does the responsiveness of the kite compare with the 16.4 Wipika
                Airblast?

                Thanks much!

                Kenny

                --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                > Watched JB (John Messenger) using the Aero 20M in the puddle known
                as
                > Narrabeen lake, wind was barely 8knots and he was doing runs across
                the
                > mouth of the lake (approx 50M wide)!!
                > It was great to watch as he would go right to edge and then do
                transition
                > moves, occasionally getting a jump of 10' or so. He is a pleasure
                to watch,
                > awesome kite control in such a tight spot.
                > I got to fly the kite on land when he had a rest, it is like a 12.0
                the way
                > it turns and flies fast for a big kite. JB normally uses ARX, but
                does not
                > like the big ones, over 15.5, he says this will be his light wind
                > competition kite now!
                > I saw him drop it and it re-launched quickly and easily, in the
                wind that
                > was there that was very impressive too!
                > Cya and
                > Goodwinds
                > Steve McCormack
                > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                > mailto:sydney@k...
                > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                > mailto:geelong@k...
              • Kitepower
                I have only flown a 16.4 on land, I have a friend who has one. There is no comparison! The AR of the Aero would be high 4 s IMO. I have only flown the Aero 20
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 6, 2002
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                  I have only flown a 16.4 on land, I have a friend who has one. There is no
                  comparison!
                  The AR of the Aero would be high 4's IMO. I have only flown the Aero 20 on
                  land, but I stood only metres away from Australia's best rider watching him
                  put it through its paces in a 50M wide pool of water. Try that with an
                  AB16.4 and you will slam into the rocks on either side like the person on
                  the 21.5 Naish ARX!!!

                  Cya and
                  Goodwinds
                  Steve McCormack
                  http://www.kitepower.com.au
                  mailto:sydney@...
                  126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                  Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                  Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                  mailto:geelong@...

                  * -----Original Message-----
                  * From: fernmanus [mailto:fernmanus@...]
                  * Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2002 11:24
                  * To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                  * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                  *
                  *
                  * Steve,
                  *
                  * Do you have any idea of what the aspect ratio is on the 20 M Aero?
                  *
                  * How does the responsiveness of the kite compare with the 16.4 Wipika
                  * Airblast?
                  *
                  * Thanks much!
                  *
                  * Kenny
                  *
                  * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                  * > Watched JB (John Messenger) using the Aero 20M in the puddle known
                  * as
                  * > Narrabeen lake, wind was barely 8knots and he was doing runs across
                  * the
                  * > mouth of the lake (approx 50M wide)!!
                  * > It was great to watch as he would go right to edge and then do
                  * transition
                  * > moves, occasionally getting a jump of 10' or so. He is a pleasure
                  * to watch,
                  * > awesome kite control in such a tight spot.
                  * > I got to fly the kite on land when he had a rest, it is like a 12.0
                  * the way
                  * > it turns and flies fast for a big kite. JB normally uses ARX, but
                  * does not
                  * > like the big ones, over 15.5, he says this will be his light wind
                  * > competition kite now!
                  * > I saw him drop it and it re-launched quickly and easily, in the
                  * wind that
                  * > was there that was very impressive too!
                  * > Cya and
                  * > Goodwinds
                  * > Steve McCormack
                  * > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                  * > mailto:sydney@k...
                  * > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                  * > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                  * > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                  * > mailto:geelong@k...
                  *
                  *
                  * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
                  *
                  * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  *
                  *
                • peter_frank_dk
                  Steve, have you flown the 2002 16.4 Airblast ? We have not got the 16.4 here yet, only the smaller sizes. The 2002 11.8 is much quicker turning than the 2001
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 6, 2002
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                    Steve, have you flown the 2002 16.4 Airblast ?

                    We have not got the 16.4 here yet, only the smaller sizes.

                    The 2002 11.8 is much quicker turning than the 2001 11.8 (which was
                    not bad turning either) - what about the 16.4 - is it noticable
                    quicker too, or not ???

                    :-) Peter

                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                    > I have only flown a 16.4 on land, I have a friend who has one.
                    There is no
                    > comparison!
                    > The AR of the Aero would be high 4's IMO. I have only flown the
                    Aero 20 on
                    > land, but I stood only metres away from Australia's best rider
                    watching him
                    > put it through its paces in a 50M wide pool of water. Try that with
                    an
                    > AB16.4 and you will slam into the rocks on either side like the
                    person on
                    > the 21.5 Naish ARX!!!
                    >
                    > Cya and
                    > Goodwinds
                    > Steve McCormack
                    > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                    > mailto:sydney@k...
                    > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                    > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                    > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                    > mailto:geelong@k...
                    >
                    > * -----Original Message-----
                    > * From: fernmanus [mailto:fernmanus@y...]
                    > * Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2002 11:24
                    > * To: kitesurf@y...
                    > * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                    > *
                    > *
                    > * Steve,
                    > *
                    > * Do you have any idea of what the aspect ratio is on the 20 M Aero?
                    > *
                    > * How does the responsiveness of the kite compare with the 16.4
                    Wipika
                    > * Airblast?
                    > *
                    > * Thanks much!
                    > *
                    > * Kenny
                    > *
                    > * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                    > * > Watched JB (John Messenger) using the Aero 20M in the puddle
                    known
                    > * as
                    > * > Narrabeen lake, wind was barely 8knots and he was doing runs
                    across
                    > * the
                    > * > mouth of the lake (approx 50M wide)!!
                    > * > It was great to watch as he would go right to edge and then do
                    > * transition
                    > * > moves, occasionally getting a jump of 10' or so. He is a
                    pleasure
                    > * to watch,
                    > * > awesome kite control in such a tight spot.
                    > * > I got to fly the kite on land when he had a rest, it is like a
                    12.0
                    > * the way
                    > * > it turns and flies fast for a big kite. JB normally uses ARX,
                    but
                    > * does not
                    > * > like the big ones, over 15.5, he says this will be his light
                    wind
                    > * > competition kite now!
                    > * > I saw him drop it and it re-launched quickly and easily, in the
                    > * wind that
                    > * > was there that was very impressive too!
                    > * > Cya and
                    > * > Goodwinds
                    > * > Steve McCormack
                    > * > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                    > * > mailto:sydney@k...
                    > * > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                    > * > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                    > * > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                    > * > mailto:geelong@k...
                    > *
                    > *
                    > * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                    > *
                    > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > *
                    > *
                  • Kitepower
                    It was when the 16.4 first came out here early last year, a long time ago! I have not flown the new 2002 kite yet. Cya and Goodwinds Steve McCormack
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 6, 2002
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                      It was when the 16.4 first came out here early last year, a long time ago! I
                      have not flown the new 2002 kite yet.

                      Cya and
                      Goodwinds
                      Steve McCormack
                      http://www.kitepower.com.au
                      mailto:sydney@...
                      Open 7 days
                      126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                      Phone +61293157894

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: peter_frank_dk [mailto:pf@...]
                      Sent: 07 March, 2002 9:56 AM
                      To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Steve ! [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M


                      Steve, have you flown the 2002 16.4 Airblast ?

                      We have not got the 16.4 here yet, only the smaller sizes.

                      The 2002 11.8 is much quicker turning than the 2001 11.8 (which was
                      not bad turning either) - what about the 16.4 - is it noticable
                      quicker too, or not ???

                      :-) Peter

                      --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                      > I have only flown a 16.4 on land, I have a friend who has one.
                      There is no
                      > comparison!
                      > The AR of the Aero would be high 4's IMO. I have only flown the
                      Aero 20 on
                      > land, but I stood only metres away from Australia's best rider
                      watching him
                      > put it through its paces in a 50M wide pool of water. Try that with
                      an
                      > AB16.4 and you will slam into the rocks on either side like the
                      person on
                      > the 21.5 Naish ARX!!!
                      >
                      > Cya and
                      > Goodwinds
                      > Steve McCormack
                      > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                      > mailto:sydney@k...
                      > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                      > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                      > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                      > mailto:geelong@k...
                      >
                      > * -----Original Message-----
                      > * From: fernmanus [mailto:fernmanus@y...]
                      > * Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2002 11:24
                      > * To: kitesurf@y...
                      > * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                      > *
                      > *
                      > * Steve,
                      > *
                      > * Do you have any idea of what the aspect ratio is on the 20 M Aero?
                      > *
                      > * How does the responsiveness of the kite compare with the 16.4
                      Wipika
                      > * Airblast?
                      > *
                      > * Thanks much!
                      > *
                      > * Kenny
                      > *
                      > * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                      > * > Watched JB (John Messenger) using the Aero 20M in the puddle
                      known
                      > * as
                      > * > Narrabeen lake, wind was barely 8knots and he was doing runs
                      across
                      > * the
                      > * > mouth of the lake (approx 50M wide)!!
                      > * > It was great to watch as he would go right to edge and then do
                      > * transition
                      > * > moves, occasionally getting a jump of 10' or so. He is a
                      pleasure
                      > * to watch,
                      > * > awesome kite control in such a tight spot.
                      > * > I got to fly the kite on land when he had a rest, it is like a
                      12.0
                      > * the way
                      > * > it turns and flies fast for a big kite. JB normally uses ARX,
                      but
                      > * does not
                      > * > like the big ones, over 15.5, he says this will be his light
                      wind
                      > * > competition kite now!
                      > * > I saw him drop it and it re-launched quickly and easily, in the
                      > * wind that
                      > * > was there that was very impressive too!
                      > * > Cya and
                      > * > Goodwinds
                      > * > Steve McCormack
                      > * > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                      > * > mailto:sydney@k...
                      > * > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                      > * > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                      > * > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                      > * > mailto:geelong@k...
                      > *
                      > *
                      > * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                      > *
                      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > *
                      > *


                      <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Stefano.
                      ... i didnt understand what you meant by that ... what do you mean slam into the rocks ? why ?
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 7, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Kitepower wrote:

                        > I have only flown a 16.4 on land, I have a friend who has one. There is no
                        > comparison!
                        > The AR of the Aero would be high 4's IMO. I have only flown the Aero 20 on
                        > land, but I stood only metres away from Australia's best rider watching him
                        > put it through its paces in a 50M wide pool of water. Try that with an
                        > AB16.4 and you will slam into the rocks on either side like the person on
                        > the 21.5 Naish ARX!!!

                        i didnt understand what you meant by that ... what do you mean slam into the
                        rocks ? why ?
                      • Kitepower
                        He could not turn the ARX, the pool of water they were riding in was no more than 50M wide, it had rocks and wire on each side. I also meant a 2001 16.4AB, I
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 7, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          He could not turn the ARX, the pool of water they were riding in was no more
                          than 50M wide, it had rocks and wire on each side.
                          I also meant a 2001 16.4AB, I have not flown the latest model.
                          If the kite could not turn very quickly you could not ride in this tiny
                          puddle of water, that's all I meant?

                          Cya and
                          Goodwinds
                          Steve McCormack
                          http://www.kitepower.com.au
                          mailto:sydney@...
                          Open 7 days
                          126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                          Phone +61293157894

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Stefano. [mailto:stefano@...]
                          Sent: 08 March, 2002 9:35 AM
                          To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M




                          Kitepower wrote:

                          > I have only flown a 16.4 on land, I have a friend who has one. There is no
                          > comparison!
                          > The AR of the Aero would be high 4's IMO. I have only flown the Aero 20 on
                          > land, but I stood only metres away from Australia's best rider watching
                          him
                          > put it through its paces in a 50M wide pool of water. Try that with an
                          > AB16.4 and you will slam into the rocks on either side like the person on
                          > the 21.5 Naish ARX!!!

                          i didnt understand what you meant by that ... what do you mean slam into the
                          rocks ? why ?


                          <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • kiteboardingjapan
                          ... was no more ... tiny ... Steve, I think it was the level of the rider that enabled him to ride in such a small space. I ve used the Aero 16 with the stock
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 10, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                            > He could not turn the ARX, the pool of water they were riding in
                            was no more
                            > than 50M wide, it had rocks and wire on each side.
                            > I also meant a 2001 16.4AB, I have not flown the latest model.
                            > If the kite could not turn very quickly you could not ride in this
                            tiny
                            > puddle of water, that's all I meant?
                            >
                            > Cya and
                            > Goodwinds
                            > Steve McCormack

                            Steve, I think it was the level of the rider that enabled him to ride
                            in such a small space. I've used the Aero 16 with the stock bar, and
                            it turned like a boat! I don't think that the 20m would be any better.

                            Nick
                          • Kitepower
                            G day Nick The people riding in the puddle that day were all very experienced riders. The Aero 20M was the best turning kite. It turned like a North 12.0M. I
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 10, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              G'day Nick

                              The people riding in the puddle that day were all very experienced riders.
                              The Aero 20M was the best turning kite. It turned like a North 12.0M. I have
                              flown an Aero 16.0M on land, and I did not think the 20.0M was very
                              different?
                              Perhaps the kite you flew was set up poorly and was depowered? How long was
                              the "stock" bar you used?

                              Cya and
                              Goodwinds
                              Steve McCormack
                              http://www.kitepower.com.au
                              mailto:sydney@...
                              126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                              Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                              Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                              mailto:geelong@...

                              * -----Original Message-----
                              * From: kiteboardingjapan [mailto:nick@...]
                              * Sent: Monday, 11 March 2002 3:35
                              * To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                              * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                              *
                              *
                              * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                              * > He could not turn the ARX, the pool of water they were riding in
                              * was no more
                              * > than 50M wide, it had rocks and wire on each side.
                              * > I also meant a 2001 16.4AB, I have not flown the latest model.
                              * > If the kite could not turn very quickly you could not ride in this
                              * tiny
                              * > puddle of water, that's all I meant?
                              * >
                              * > Cya and
                              * > Goodwinds
                              * > Steve McCormack
                              *
                              * Steve, I think it was the level of the rider that enabled him to ride
                              * in such a small space. I've used the Aero 16 with the stock bar, and
                              * it turned like a boat! I don't think that the 20m would be any better.
                              *
                              * Nick
                              *
                              *
                              * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
                              *
                              * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              *
                              *
                            • kiteboardingjapan
                              ... riders. ... 12.0M. I have ... long was ... Steve, I don t think that the Aero 20M can turn like a North 12m. I ve been using Norths (including the 12m) for
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 11, 2002
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                                --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                > G'day Nick
                                >
                                > The people riding in the puddle that day were all very experienced
                                riders.
                                > The Aero 20M was the best turning kite. It turned like a North
                                12.0M. I have
                                > flown an Aero 16.0M on land, and I did not think the 20.0M was very
                                > different?
                                > Perhaps the kite you flew was set up poorly and was depowered? How
                                long was
                                > the "stock" bar you used?

                                Steve,
                                I don't think that the Aero 20M can turn like a North 12m. I've been
                                using Norths (including the 12m) for 3 months now, and I've riden
                                with the Aero 16m a few times. The turn speed wasn't even close. The
                                Aeros I flew were part of a Naish promotional event. They were set up
                                by the Naish distributor and were used by the Naish pro rider here.
                                Can't remember how long the stock bar was, but I'd guess at about
                                55cm. I fly my Norths all on a 23" (58cm) Cabrinha bar. They could
                                easily be flown on a shorter bar. Aeros do not turn faster than ARXs.

                                Nick
                              • Kitepower
                                G day Nick I don t want to argue with you about this, this is the last comment I make about this kite. I have 4 Rhinos, that are my personal kites, so I know
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 11, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  G'day Nick

                                  I don't want to argue with you about this, this is the last comment I make
                                  about this kite. I have 4 Rhinos, that are my personal kites, so I know them
                                  well. I also have 3 F-Ones, which are awesome and being overlooked by many
                                  people wanting huge range in a kite.
                                  I sponsor a rider who uses Aeros exclusively, I also sponsor JB (rider on
                                  the 20M in the puddle). Part of my job is to fly kites, virtually every day!
                                  I don't know why you keep defending ARX kites and wanting to diss Aero
                                  kites?
                                  I have actually flown all the kites we are talking about, so it is not a
                                  matter of "thinking" the Aero will not turn as well as an ARX. Even the
                                  smaller ARX's need a lot of effort to steer, which some people like, I
                                  don't.
                                  Have you flown a monster ARX? I'm talking the 19.5, 21.5 or 23.5? Ever
                                  wondered why not many have been sold?
                                  The other kite in the lagoon was a 21.5 Naish ARX, it turned like shit
                                  compared to the Aero 20.0M!
                                  Naish Aero's are not slow turning kites, not even the 16.0M, they are one of
                                  the best kites for 2002, and I think they are the best Naish kites I have
                                  flown.

                                  Cya and
                                  Goodwinds
                                  Steve McCormack
                                  http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                  mailto:sydney@...
                                  126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                                  Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                                  Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                                  mailto:geelong@...

                                  * -----Original Message-----
                                  * From: kiteboardingjapan [mailto:nick@...]
                                  * Sent: Tuesday, 12 March 2002 3:24
                                  * To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                                  * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                                  *
                                  *
                                  * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                  * > G'day Nick
                                  * >
                                  * > The people riding in the puddle that day were all very experienced
                                  * riders.
                                  * > The Aero 20M was the best turning kite. It turned like a North
                                  * 12.0M. I have
                                  * > flown an Aero 16.0M on land, and I did not think the 20.0M was very
                                  * > different?
                                  * > Perhaps the kite you flew was set up poorly and was depowered? How
                                  * long was
                                  * > the "stock" bar you used?
                                  *
                                  * Steve,
                                  * I don't think that the Aero 20M can turn like a North 12m. I've been
                                  * using Norths (including the 12m) for 3 months now, and I've riden
                                  * with the Aero 16m a few times. The turn speed wasn't even close. The
                                  * Aeros I flew were part of a Naish promotional event. They were set up
                                  * by the Naish distributor and were used by the Naish pro rider here.
                                  * Can't remember how long the stock bar was, but I'd guess at about
                                  * 55cm. I fly my Norths all on a 23" (58cm) Cabrinha bar. They could
                                  * easily be flown on a shorter bar. Aeros do not turn faster than ARXs.
                                  *
                                  * Nick
                                  *
                                  *
                                  *
                                  * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
                                  *
                                  * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  *
                                  *
                                • wipika_ab
                                  Hi Steve About the ARXs... You are totally RIGHT!!! I never used or even saw a Aero 20M, but I can say that the ARX 19.5 (I ve one) turns like a BOAT!!! And it
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 11, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Steve

                                    About the ARXs... You are totally RIGHT!!! I never used or even saw a
                                    Aero 20M, but I can say that the ARX 19.5 (I've one) turns like a
                                    BOAT!!! And it needs A LOT of bar pressure, even with the power
                                    booster bridle (that I think even makes it slower, but takes a lot of
                                    bar pressure).

                                    Good winds
                                    Carlos



                                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                    > G'day Nick
                                    >
                                    > I don't want to argue with you about this, this is the last comment
                                    I make
                                    > about this kite. I have 4 Rhinos, that are my personal kites, so I
                                    know them
                                    > well. I also have 3 F-Ones, which are awesome and being overlooked
                                    by many
                                    > people wanting huge range in a kite.
                                    > I sponsor a rider who uses Aeros exclusively, I also sponsor JB
                                    (rider on
                                    > the 20M in the puddle). Part of my job is to fly kites, virtually
                                    every day!
                                    > I don't know why you keep defending ARX kites and wanting to diss
                                    Aero
                                    > kites?
                                    > I have actually flown all the kites we are talking about, so it is
                                    not a
                                    > matter of "thinking" the Aero will not turn as well as an ARX. Even
                                    the
                                    > smaller ARX's need a lot of effort to steer, which some people
                                    like, I
                                    > don't.
                                    > Have you flown a monster ARX? I'm talking the 19.5, 21.5 or 23.5?
                                    Ever
                                    > wondered why not many have been sold?
                                    > The other kite in the lagoon was a 21.5 Naish ARX, it turned like
                                    shit
                                    > compared to the Aero 20.0M!
                                    > Naish Aero's are not slow turning kites, not even the 16.0M, they
                                    are one of
                                    > the best kites for 2002, and I think they are the best Naish kites
                                    I have
                                    > flown.
                                    >
                                    > Cya and
                                    > Goodwinds
                                    > Steve McCormack
                                    > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                    > mailto:sydney@k...
                                    > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                                    > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                                    > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                                    > mailto:geelong@k...
                                    >
                                    > * -----Original Message-----
                                    > * From: kiteboardingjapan [mailto:nick@h...]
                                    > * Sent: Tuesday, 12 March 2002 3:24
                                    > * To: kitesurf@y...
                                    > * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                                    > *
                                    > *
                                    > * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                    > * > G'day Nick
                                    > * >
                                    > * > The people riding in the puddle that day were all very
                                    experienced
                                    > * riders.
                                    > * > The Aero 20M was the best turning kite. It turned like a North
                                    > * 12.0M. I have
                                    > * > flown an Aero 16.0M on land, and I did not think the 20.0M was
                                    very
                                    > * > different?
                                    > * > Perhaps the kite you flew was set up poorly and was depowered?
                                    How
                                    > * long was
                                    > * > the "stock" bar you used?
                                    > *
                                    > * Steve,
                                    > * I don't think that the Aero 20M can turn like a North 12m. I've
                                    been
                                    > * using Norths (including the 12m) for 3 months now, and I've riden
                                    > * with the Aero 16m a few times. The turn speed wasn't even close.
                                    The
                                    > * Aeros I flew were part of a Naish promotional event. They were
                                    set up
                                    > * by the Naish distributor and were used by the Naish pro rider
                                    here.
                                    > * Can't remember how long the stock bar was, but I'd guess at about
                                    > * 55cm. I fly my Norths all on a 23" (58cm) Cabrinha bar. They could
                                    > * easily be flown on a shorter bar. Aeros do not turn faster than
                                    ARXs.
                                    > *
                                    > * Nick
                                    > *
                                    > *
                                    > *
                                    > * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                                    > *
                                    > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > *
                                    > *
                                  • kiteboardingjapan
                                    ... I make ... Fair enough, my last comment too... ... ditto. ... ditto. ... I m certainly not defending ARX kites. Not dissing the Aero, just stating what I
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 11, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                      > G'day Nick
                                      >
                                      > I don't want to argue with you about this, this is the last comment
                                      I make
                                      > about this kite.

                                      Fair enough, my last comment too...

                                      >I have 4 Rhinos, that are my personal kites, so I know them
                                      > well.

                                      ditto.

                                      >Part of my job is to fly kites, virtually every day!

                                      ditto.

                                      > I don't know why you keep defending ARX kites and wanting to diss
                                      > Aero kites?

                                      I'm certainly not defending ARX kites. Not dissing the Aero, just
                                      stating what I experienced on the water with the kite. The Aero 16m
                                      does not turn as fast as a North 12m. I have even used both these
                                      kites on the same day.

                                      > I have actually flown all the kites we are talking about, so it is
                                      > not a matter of "thinking" the Aero will not turn as well as an
                                      > ARX. Even the smaller ARX's need a lot of effort to steer, which
                                      > some people like, I don't.

                                      I was posting about the turn speed of the North 12m Vs Aero 16m. They
                                      are not the same. I have flown these kites on the water. I also
                                      experienced that the Naish ARX 15.5 turns faster and can be used in
                                      lower winds than the Naish 16m.

                                      > Have you flown a monster ARX? I'm talking the 19.5, 21.5 or 23.5?
                                      > Ever wondered why not many have been sold?

                                      Yes, and they turn like boats. I'd never buy one.

                                      > The other kite in the lagoon was a 21.5 Naish ARX, it turned like
                                      >shit compared to the Aero 20.0M! Naish Aero's are not slow turning
                                      >kites, not even the 16.0M, they are one of the best kites for 2002,
                                      >and I think they are the best Naish kites I have
                                      > flown.

                                      I've flown many of the 2002 kites and think they all fly really well.
                                      I personally didn't like the Aeros. I've used the 8, 10, 12 & 16 over
                                      a 2 week period. They are probably the worst gust handling kites I've
                                      ever flown. If you have steady winds, they'd fly great.

                                      Nick
                                    • Kitepower
                                      We had a film shoot to do the other day, Murphys law of kiteboarding meant the wind was hovering around 5 knots all day!! JB was able to get going and even do
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 14, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        We had a film shoot to do the other day, Murphys law of kiteboarding meant
                                        the wind was hovering around 5 knots all day!!
                                        JB was able to get going and even do some small transition moves with his
                                        Aero 20M, he has a really interesting technique for getting more speed in
                                        these low wind conditions from his board, as he says this is what is
                                        stopping him. So he pumps the board, with his legs as he sheets the kite out
                                        a bit and keeps it flying, parked at approx 10.30
                                        It has a porpoising look to it and definitely speeds the board up to the
                                        point where he can swing the kite back, get a bit of air and do a backroll
                                        or something.
                                        I could not get as much power as he had from my Warrior 12.5, but I did
                                        manage a few decent runs.
                                        Other kites on the water were a sweet looking red and white Arc (g'day
                                        again, Rod from Japan!) 16.4, 2001 AB with no bridles, and an 8.5 C-Quad!!
                                        The 15.1 F-One was able to fly easily on the beach but was not enough to get
                                        on the water with.

                                        Cya and
                                        Goodwinds
                                        Steve McCormack
                                        http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                        mailto:sydney@...
                                        Open 7 days
                                        126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                                        Phone +61293157894

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: wipika_ab [mailto:c_batalha@...]
                                        Sent: 12 March, 2002 8:56 AM
                                        To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M


                                        Hi Steve

                                        About the ARXs... You are totally RIGHT!!! I never used or even saw a
                                        Aero 20M, but I can say that the ARX 19.5 (I've one) turns like a
                                        BOAT!!! And it needs A LOT of bar pressure, even with the power
                                        booster bridle (that I think even makes it slower, but takes a lot of
                                        bar pressure).

                                        Good winds
                                        Carlos



                                        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                        > G'day Nick
                                        >
                                        > I don't want to argue with you about this, this is the last comment
                                        I make
                                        > about this kite. I have 4 Rhinos, that are my personal kites, so I
                                        know them
                                        > well. I also have 3 F-Ones, which are awesome and being overlooked
                                        by many
                                        > people wanting huge range in a kite.
                                        > I sponsor a rider who uses Aeros exclusively, I also sponsor JB
                                        (rider on
                                        > the 20M in the puddle). Part of my job is to fly kites, virtually
                                        every day!
                                        > I don't know why you keep defending ARX kites and wanting to diss
                                        Aero
                                        > kites?
                                        > I have actually flown all the kites we are talking about, so it is
                                        not a
                                        > matter of "thinking" the Aero will not turn as well as an ARX. Even
                                        the
                                        > smaller ARX's need a lot of effort to steer, which some people
                                        like, I
                                        > don't.
                                        > Have you flown a monster ARX? I'm talking the 19.5, 21.5 or 23.5?
                                        Ever
                                        > wondered why not many have been sold?
                                        > The other kite in the lagoon was a 21.5 Naish ARX, it turned like
                                        shit
                                        > compared to the Aero 20.0M!
                                        > Naish Aero's are not slow turning kites, not even the 16.0M, they
                                        are one of
                                        > the best kites for 2002, and I think they are the best Naish kites
                                        I have
                                        > flown.
                                        >
                                        > Cya and
                                        > Goodwinds
                                        > Steve McCormack
                                        > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                        > mailto:sydney@k...
                                        > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                                        > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                                        > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                                        > mailto:geelong@k...
                                        >
                                        > * -----Original Message-----
                                        > * From: kiteboardingjapan [mailto:nick@h...]
                                        > * Sent: Tuesday, 12 March 2002 3:24
                                        > * To: kitesurf@y...
                                        > * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                                        > *
                                        > *
                                        > * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                        > * > G'day Nick
                                        > * >
                                        > * > The people riding in the puddle that day were all very
                                        experienced
                                        > * riders.
                                        > * > The Aero 20M was the best turning kite. It turned like a North
                                        > * 12.0M. I have
                                        > * > flown an Aero 16.0M on land, and I did not think the 20.0M was
                                        very
                                        > * > different?
                                        > * > Perhaps the kite you flew was set up poorly and was depowered?
                                        How
                                        > * long was
                                        > * > the "stock" bar you used?
                                        > *
                                        > * Steve,
                                        > * I don't think that the Aero 20M can turn like a North 12m. I've
                                        been
                                        > * using Norths (including the 12m) for 3 months now, and I've riden
                                        > * with the Aero 16m a few times. The turn speed wasn't even close.
                                        The
                                        > * Aeros I flew were part of a Naish promotional event. They were
                                        set up
                                        > * by the Naish distributor and were used by the Naish pro rider
                                        here.
                                        > * Can't remember how long the stock bar was, but I'd guess at about
                                        > * 55cm. I fly my Norths all on a 23" (58cm) Cabrinha bar. They could
                                        > * easily be flown on a shorter bar. Aeros do not turn faster than
                                        ARXs.
                                        > *
                                        > * Nick
                                        > *
                                        > *
                                        > *
                                        > * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                                        > *
                                        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > *
                                        > *


                                        <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

                                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      • callum_downie
                                        Hey steve, I ve heard the 18.1 fone is generally better than the 20 aero, i.e can get going earlier due to it s sinus ability in light winds, jumps better
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 14, 2002
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hey steve,
                                          I've heard the 18.1 fone is generally better than the 20 aero, i.e
                                          can get going earlier due to it's sinus ability in light winds, jumps
                                          better because it is faster..
                                          Have you flown it to get an opinion?
                                          I saw one flying, it turns so fast, can't believe how wide the tips
                                          on it are.

                                          Cheers
                                          Callum

                                          --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                          > We had a film shoot to do the other day, Murphys law of
                                          kiteboarding meant
                                          > the wind was hovering around 5 knots all day!!
                                          > JB was able to get going and even do some small transition moves
                                          with his
                                          > Aero 20M, he has a really interesting technique for getting more
                                          speed in
                                          > these low wind conditions from his board, as he says this is what is
                                          > stopping him. So he pumps the board, with his legs as he sheets the
                                          kite out
                                          > a bit and keeps it flying, parked at approx 10.30
                                          > It has a porpoising look to it and definitely speeds the board up
                                          to the
                                          > point where he can swing the kite back, get a bit of air and do a
                                          backroll
                                          > or something.
                                          > I could not get as much power as he had from my Warrior 12.5, but I
                                          did
                                          > manage a few decent runs.
                                          > Other kites on the water were a sweet looking red and white Arc
                                          (g'day
                                          > again, Rod from Japan!) 16.4, 2001 AB with no bridles, and an 8.5 C-
                                          Quad!!
                                          > The 15.1 F-One was able to fly easily on the beach but was not
                                          enough to get
                                          > on the water with.
                                          >
                                          > Cya and
                                          > Goodwinds
                                          > Steve McCormack
                                          > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                          > mailto:sydney@k...
                                          > Open 7 days
                                          > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                                          > Phone +61293157894
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: wipika_ab [mailto:c_batalha@c...]
                                          > Sent: 12 March, 2002 8:56 AM
                                          > To: kitesurf@y...
                                          > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi Steve
                                          >
                                          > About the ARXs... You are totally RIGHT!!! I never used or even saw
                                          a
                                          > Aero 20M, but I can say that the ARX 19.5 (I've one) turns like a
                                          > BOAT!!! And it needs A LOT of bar pressure, even with the power
                                          > booster bridle (that I think even makes it slower, but takes a lot
                                          of
                                          > bar pressure).
                                          >
                                          > Good winds
                                          > Carlos
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                          > > G'day Nick
                                          > >
                                          > > I don't want to argue with you about this, this is the last
                                          comment
                                          > I make
                                          > > about this kite. I have 4 Rhinos, that are my personal kites, so I
                                          > know them
                                          > > well. I also have 3 F-Ones, which are awesome and being overlooked
                                          > by many
                                          > > people wanting huge range in a kite.
                                          > > I sponsor a rider who uses Aeros exclusively, I also sponsor JB
                                          > (rider on
                                          > > the 20M in the puddle). Part of my job is to fly kites, virtually
                                          > every day!
                                          > > I don't know why you keep defending ARX kites and wanting to diss
                                          > Aero
                                          > > kites?
                                          > > I have actually flown all the kites we are talking about, so it is
                                          > not a
                                          > > matter of "thinking" the Aero will not turn as well as an ARX.
                                          Even
                                          > the
                                          > > smaller ARX's need a lot of effort to steer, which some people
                                          > like, I
                                          > > don't.
                                          > > Have you flown a monster ARX? I'm talking the 19.5, 21.5 or 23.5?
                                          > Ever
                                          > > wondered why not many have been sold?
                                          > > The other kite in the lagoon was a 21.5 Naish ARX, it turned like
                                          > shit
                                          > > compared to the Aero 20.0M!
                                          > > Naish Aero's are not slow turning kites, not even the 16.0M, they
                                          > are one of
                                          > > the best kites for 2002, and I think they are the best Naish kites
                                          > I have
                                          > > flown.
                                          > >
                                          > > Cya and
                                          > > Goodwinds
                                          > > Steve McCormack
                                          > > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                          > > mailto:sydney@k...
                                          > > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                                          > > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                                          > > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                                          > > mailto:geelong@k...
                                          > >
                                          > > * -----Original Message-----
                                          > > * From: kiteboardingjapan [mailto:nick@h...]
                                          > > * Sent: Tuesday, 12 March 2002 3:24
                                          > > * To: kitesurf@y...
                                          > > * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                                          > > *
                                          > > *
                                          > > * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                          > > * > G'day Nick
                                          > > * >
                                          > > * > The people riding in the puddle that day were all very
                                          > experienced
                                          > > * riders.
                                          > > * > The Aero 20M was the best turning kite. It turned like a North
                                          > > * 12.0M. I have
                                          > > * > flown an Aero 16.0M on land, and I did not think the 20.0M was
                                          > very
                                          > > * > different?
                                          > > * > Perhaps the kite you flew was set up poorly and was depowered?
                                          > How
                                          > > * long was
                                          > > * > the "stock" bar you used?
                                          > > *
                                          > > * Steve,
                                          > > * I don't think that the Aero 20M can turn like a North 12m. I've
                                          > been
                                          > > * using Norths (including the 12m) for 3 months now, and I've
                                          riden
                                          > > * with the Aero 16m a few times. The turn speed wasn't even close.
                                          > The
                                          > > * Aeros I flew were part of a Naish promotional event. They were
                                          > set up
                                          > > * by the Naish distributor and were used by the Naish pro rider
                                          > here.
                                          > > * Can't remember how long the stock bar was, but I'd guess at
                                          about
                                          > > * 55cm. I fly my Norths all on a 23" (58cm) Cabrinha bar. They
                                          could
                                          > > * easily be flown on a shorter bar. Aeros do not turn faster than
                                          > ARXs.
                                          > > *
                                          > > * Nick
                                          > > *
                                          > > *
                                          > > *
                                          > > * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                                          > > *
                                          > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          > > *
                                          > > *
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        • igsmith
                                          Any thoughts on the 16 airush lift? I have one, but haven t had the conditions to use it yet. ... jumps ... is ... the ... I ... C- ... saw ... lot ... so I
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 14, 2002
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Any thoughts on the 16 airush lift? I have one, but haven't had the
                                            conditions to use it yet.

                                            --- In kitesurf@y..., "callum_downie" <callum_downie@h...> wrote:
                                            > Hey steve,
                                            > I've heard the 18.1 fone is generally better than the 20 aero, i.e
                                            > can get going earlier due to it's sinus ability in light winds,
                                            jumps
                                            > better because it is faster..
                                            > Have you flown it to get an opinion?
                                            > I saw one flying, it turns so fast, can't believe how wide the tips
                                            > on it are.
                                            >
                                            > Cheers
                                            > Callum
                                            >
                                            > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                            > > We had a film shoot to do the other day, Murphys law of
                                            > kiteboarding meant
                                            > > the wind was hovering around 5 knots all day!!
                                            > > JB was able to get going and even do some small transition moves
                                            > with his
                                            > > Aero 20M, he has a really interesting technique for getting more
                                            > speed in
                                            > > these low wind conditions from his board, as he says this is what
                                            is
                                            > > stopping him. So he pumps the board, with his legs as he sheets
                                            the
                                            > kite out
                                            > > a bit and keeps it flying, parked at approx 10.30
                                            > > It has a porpoising look to it and definitely speeds the board up
                                            > to the
                                            > > point where he can swing the kite back, get a bit of air and do a
                                            > backroll
                                            > > or something.
                                            > > I could not get as much power as he had from my Warrior 12.5, but
                                            I
                                            > did
                                            > > manage a few decent runs.
                                            > > Other kites on the water were a sweet looking red and white Arc
                                            > (g'day
                                            > > again, Rod from Japan!) 16.4, 2001 AB with no bridles, and an 8.5
                                            C-
                                            > Quad!!
                                            > > The 15.1 F-One was able to fly easily on the beach but was not
                                            > enough to get
                                            > > on the water with.
                                            > >
                                            > > Cya and
                                            > > Goodwinds
                                            > > Steve McCormack
                                            > > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                            > > mailto:sydney@k...
                                            > > Open 7 days
                                            > > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                                            > > Phone +61293157894
                                            > >
                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > From: wipika_ab [mailto:c_batalha@c...]
                                            > > Sent: 12 March, 2002 8:56 AM
                                            > > To: kitesurf@y...
                                            > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi Steve
                                            > >
                                            > > About the ARXs... You are totally RIGHT!!! I never used or even
                                            saw
                                            > a
                                            > > Aero 20M, but I can say that the ARX 19.5 (I've one) turns like a
                                            > > BOAT!!! And it needs A LOT of bar pressure, even with the power
                                            > > booster bridle (that I think even makes it slower, but takes a
                                            lot
                                            > of
                                            > > bar pressure).
                                            > >
                                            > > Good winds
                                            > > Carlos
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                            > > > G'day Nick
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I don't want to argue with you about this, this is the last
                                            > comment
                                            > > I make
                                            > > > about this kite. I have 4 Rhinos, that are my personal kites,
                                            so I
                                            > > know them
                                            > > > well. I also have 3 F-Ones, which are awesome and being
                                            overlooked
                                            > > by many
                                            > > > people wanting huge range in a kite.
                                            > > > I sponsor a rider who uses Aeros exclusively, I also sponsor JB
                                            > > (rider on
                                            > > > the 20M in the puddle). Part of my job is to fly kites,
                                            virtually
                                            > > every day!
                                            > > > I don't know why you keep defending ARX kites and wanting to
                                            diss
                                            > > Aero
                                            > > > kites?
                                            > > > I have actually flown all the kites we are talking about, so it
                                            is
                                            > > not a
                                            > > > matter of "thinking" the Aero will not turn as well as an ARX.
                                            > Even
                                            > > the
                                            > > > smaller ARX's need a lot of effort to steer, which some people
                                            > > like, I
                                            > > > don't.
                                            > > > Have you flown a monster ARX? I'm talking the 19.5, 21.5 or
                                            23.5?
                                            > > Ever
                                            > > > wondered why not many have been sold?
                                            > > > The other kite in the lagoon was a 21.5 Naish ARX, it turned
                                            like
                                            > > shit
                                            > > > compared to the Aero 20.0M!
                                            > > > Naish Aero's are not slow turning kites, not even the 16.0M,
                                            they
                                            > > are one of
                                            > > > the best kites for 2002, and I think they are the best Naish
                                            kites
                                            > > I have
                                            > > > flown.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Cya and
                                            > > > Goodwinds
                                            > > > Steve McCormack
                                            > > > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                            > > > mailto:sydney@k...
                                            > > > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                                            > > > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                                            > > > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                                            > > > mailto:geelong@k...
                                            > > >
                                            > > > * -----Original Message-----
                                            > > > * From: kiteboardingjapan [mailto:nick@h...]
                                            > > > * Sent: Tuesday, 12 March 2002 3:24
                                            > > > * To: kitesurf@y...
                                            > > > * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                                            > > > *
                                            > > > *
                                            > > > * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                            > > > * > G'day Nick
                                            > > > * >
                                            > > > * > The people riding in the puddle that day were all very
                                            > > experienced
                                            > > > * riders.
                                            > > > * > The Aero 20M was the best turning kite. It turned like a
                                            North
                                            > > > * 12.0M. I have
                                            > > > * > flown an Aero 16.0M on land, and I did not think the 20.0M
                                            was
                                            > > very
                                            > > > * > different?
                                            > > > * > Perhaps the kite you flew was set up poorly and was
                                            depowered?
                                            > > How
                                            > > > * long was
                                            > > > * > the "stock" bar you used?
                                            > > > *
                                            > > > * Steve,
                                            > > > * I don't think that the Aero 20M can turn like a North 12m.
                                            I've
                                            > > been
                                            > > > * using Norths (including the 12m) for 3 months now, and I've
                                            > riden
                                            > > > * with the Aero 16m a few times. The turn speed wasn't even
                                            close.
                                            > > The
                                            > > > * Aeros I flew were part of a Naish promotional event. They were
                                            > > set up
                                            > > > * by the Naish distributor and were used by the Naish pro rider
                                            > > here.
                                            > > > * Can't remember how long the stock bar was, but I'd guess at
                                            > about
                                            > > > * 55cm. I fly my Norths all on a 23" (58cm) Cabrinha bar. They
                                            > could
                                            > > > * easily be flown on a shorter bar. Aeros do not turn faster
                                            than
                                            > > ARXs.
                                            > > > *
                                            > > > * Nick
                                            > > > *
                                            > > > *
                                            > > > *
                                            > > > * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-
                                            unsubscribe@e...>>>
                                            > > > *
                                            > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            > > > *
                                            > > > *
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                                            > >
                                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          • Dwight & Jacky
                                            ... I ve flown side by side with one while I was on my 22.5 Rhino. It s a smaller looking kite and definitely has less power. It s high aspect and the guys
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 14, 2002
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              > Any thoughts on the 16 airush lift? I have one, but haven't had the
                                              > conditions to use it yet.

                                              I've flown side by side with one while I was on my 22.5 Rhino. It's a smaller looking kite and
                                              definitely has less power. It's high aspect and the guys using it noticed it was pitch sensitive in
                                              light winds. Go easy on the chicken loop stroke. Maybe use the strap in small adjustments when the
                                              wind is light. You can make the kite fall if you're not careful. You should enjoy the kite. My
                                              friends liked it.

                                              Dwight
                                            • Kitepower
                                              No I haven t had a chance to fly an 18.1 F-One yet. You would have seen Leon Clemones on his, Leon and JB are great mates and generally fly together. JB says
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 15, 2002
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                No I haven't had a chance to fly an 18.1 F-One yet. You would have seen Leon
                                                Clemones on his, Leon and JB are great mates and generally fly together.
                                                JB says he has to put the aero 20M away at around 12-13 knots, but on the
                                                same day Leon will still be out on the 18.1 without any trim strap pulled
                                                in!! JB reckons a solid 15 knots is all Leon could comfortably handle, but
                                                Leon has been witnessed riding his 15.1 in solid 25 knots too!
                                                I have recently bought a couple of large foils thinking they would perform
                                                better than inflatos or Arcs and have found no real advantage over the
                                                latest inflatos, especially the F-One's.
                                                I am seriously considering getting an 18.1 F-One for my super light wind
                                                kite, before this kite came along I was never impressed with any of the
                                                monster kites over 16.0M flat.
                                                Looking good for some Nor'easters today and the next couple of days.

                                                Cya and
                                                Goodwinds
                                                Steve McCormack
                                                http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                                mailto:sydney@...
                                                Open 7 days
                                                126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                                                Phone +61293157894

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: callum_downie [mailto:callum_downie@...]
                                                Sent: 15 March, 2002 1:30 PM
                                                To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M


                                                Hey steve,
                                                I've heard the 18.1 fone is generally better than the 20 aero, i.e
                                                can get going earlier due to it's sinus ability in light winds, jumps
                                                better because it is faster..
                                                Have you flown it to get an opinion?
                                                I saw one flying, it turns so fast, can't believe how wide the tips
                                                on it are.

                                                Cheers
                                                Callum

                                                --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                                > We had a film shoot to do the other day, Murphys law of
                                                kiteboarding meant
                                                > the wind was hovering around 5 knots all day!!
                                                > JB was able to get going and even do some small transition moves
                                                with his
                                                > Aero 20M, he has a really interesting technique for getting more
                                                speed in
                                                > these low wind conditions from his board, as he says this is what is
                                                > stopping him. So he pumps the board, with his legs as he sheets the
                                                kite out
                                                > a bit and keeps it flying, parked at approx 10.30
                                                > It has a porpoising look to it and definitely speeds the board up
                                                to the
                                                > point where he can swing the kite back, get a bit of air and do a
                                                backroll
                                                > or something.
                                                > I could not get as much power as he had from my Warrior 12.5, but I
                                                did
                                                > manage a few decent runs.
                                                > Other kites on the water were a sweet looking red and white Arc
                                                (g'day
                                                > again, Rod from Japan!) 16.4, 2001 AB with no bridles, and an 8.5 C-
                                                Quad!!
                                                > The 15.1 F-One was able to fly easily on the beach but was not
                                                enough to get
                                                > on the water with.
                                                >
                                                > Cya and
                                                > Goodwinds
                                                > Steve McCormack
                                                > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                                > mailto:sydney@k...
                                                > Open 7 days
                                                > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                                                > Phone +61293157894
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: wipika_ab [mailto:c_batalha@c...]
                                                > Sent: 12 March, 2002 8:56 AM
                                                > To: kitesurf@y...
                                                > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Hi Steve
                                                >
                                                > About the ARXs... You are totally RIGHT!!! I never used or even saw
                                                a
                                                > Aero 20M, but I can say that the ARX 19.5 (I've one) turns like a
                                                > BOAT!!! And it needs A LOT of bar pressure, even with the power
                                                > booster bridle (that I think even makes it slower, but takes a lot
                                                of
                                                > bar pressure).
                                                >
                                                > Good winds
                                                > Carlos
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                                > > G'day Nick
                                                > >
                                                > > I don't want to argue with you about this, this is the last
                                                comment
                                                > I make
                                                > > about this kite. I have 4 Rhinos, that are my personal kites, so I
                                                > know them
                                                > > well. I also have 3 F-Ones, which are awesome and being overlooked
                                                > by many
                                                > > people wanting huge range in a kite.
                                                > > I sponsor a rider who uses Aeros exclusively, I also sponsor JB
                                                > (rider on
                                                > > the 20M in the puddle). Part of my job is to fly kites, virtually
                                                > every day!
                                                > > I don't know why you keep defending ARX kites and wanting to diss
                                                > Aero
                                                > > kites?
                                                > > I have actually flown all the kites we are talking about, so it is
                                                > not a
                                                > > matter of "thinking" the Aero will not turn as well as an ARX.
                                                Even
                                                > the
                                                > > smaller ARX's need a lot of effort to steer, which some people
                                                > like, I
                                                > > don't.
                                                > > Have you flown a monster ARX? I'm talking the 19.5, 21.5 or 23.5?
                                                > Ever
                                                > > wondered why not many have been sold?
                                                > > The other kite in the lagoon was a 21.5 Naish ARX, it turned like
                                                > shit
                                                > > compared to the Aero 20.0M!
                                                > > Naish Aero's are not slow turning kites, not even the 16.0M, they
                                                > are one of
                                                > > the best kites for 2002, and I think they are the best Naish kites
                                                > I have
                                                > > flown.
                                                > >
                                                > > Cya and
                                                > > Goodwinds
                                                > > Steve McCormack
                                                > > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                                                > > mailto:sydney@k...
                                                > > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                                                > > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                                                > > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                                                > > mailto:geelong@k...
                                                > >
                                                > > * -----Original Message-----
                                                > > * From: kiteboardingjapan [mailto:nick@h...]
                                                > > * Sent: Tuesday, 12 March 2002 3:24
                                                > > * To: kitesurf@y...
                                                > > * Subject: [ksurf] Re: Aero 20M
                                                > > *
                                                > > *
                                                > > * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                                > > * > G'day Nick
                                                > > * >
                                                > > * > The people riding in the puddle that day were all very
                                                > experienced
                                                > > * riders.
                                                > > * > The Aero 20M was the best turning kite. It turned like a North
                                                > > * 12.0M. I have
                                                > > * > flown an Aero 16.0M on land, and I did not think the 20.0M was
                                                > very
                                                > > * > different?
                                                > > * > Perhaps the kite you flew was set up poorly and was depowered?
                                                > How
                                                > > * long was
                                                > > * > the "stock" bar you used?
                                                > > *
                                                > > * Steve,
                                                > > * I don't think that the Aero 20M can turn like a North 12m. I've
                                                > been
                                                > > * using Norths (including the 12m) for 3 months now, and I've
                                                riden
                                                > > * with the Aero 16m a few times. The turn speed wasn't even close.
                                                > The
                                                > > * Aeros I flew were part of a Naish promotional event. They were
                                                > set up
                                                > > * by the Naish distributor and were used by the Naish pro rider
                                                > here.
                                                > > * Can't remember how long the stock bar was, but I'd guess at
                                                about
                                                > > * 55cm. I fly my Norths all on a 23" (58cm) Cabrinha bar. They
                                                could
                                                > > * easily be flown on a shorter bar. Aeros do not turn faster than
                                                > ARXs.
                                                > > *
                                                > > * Nick
                                                > > *
                                                > > *
                                                > > *
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                                                > > *
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