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[ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles

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  • Steve Bateman
    I usually have a (as Todd calls it) a Death Grip on the handles. But this is very hard on the tendons and in cold conditions can numb the fingers (at least on
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 2 8:40 PM
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      I usually have a (as Todd calls it) a Death Grip on the handles.
      But this is very hard on the tendons and in cold conditions can
      numb the fingers (at least on the dry lake bed it does). So it
      is nice to relax a bit when harnessed in. But odd things can happen;
      that odd wave or chop, harness lines can break (it happened..),
      fish or other animals can scare you (maybe it's just me).

      Has anyone tied a single line from one of the brake lines (quad line
      kite) to a wrist leash? It would have to be a significant distance
      away from the handles so that if the handles are dropped, one brake
      line is fully applied (no top line tension at all). And this is
      going to depend on the chrord (width) of the kite. Of course
      the kite is going to spin wildly, but no handles flying and no
      kite to swim after.

      fritz@... wrote:

      > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land. Besided
      > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
      > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
      > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
      > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
      > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a problem to
      > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
      > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy you
      > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets blown
      > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if it's
      > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
      > untangle it.

      --
      Steve Bateman geokite at sprintmail dot com
      The best health info is at http://www.healthcentral.com
    • speleopower@yahoo.com
      speleopowe-@yahoo.com wrote: The main concern is two fold the first concern is, increased drag causing your brakes to be applied from the excess weight of the
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 2 9:40 PM
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        speleopowe-@... wrote: The main concern is two fold the first
        concern is, increased drag causing your brakes to be applied from the
        excess weight of the wrist line, the second and probably more
        compelling reason to not attach a wrist leash line is that of breaking
        the line. Since most brake lines are at least half as strong as the
        main lines if not weaker they would tend to break very easily. If you
        used stronger hence heavier brake lines the increased drag would apply
        the brakes just due to wind drag. Thouh give it a try and let us know
        how it works because I've not tried putting a leash on my brake lines.
        When I first started using foils on the water I thought it would be to
        my advantage to have a wrist leash with a line to one or both brakes.
        I thought a release system on the foils was the only way to do things
        mostly because I started kitesurfing using a Wipika (you have to have a
        leash). Before the wipika I never tried kitesurfing because I figured
        everytime I crashed in the water the kite would soon follow. However,
        after watching lots of people and trying it myself the fear of
        losing/crashing my kite is now almost gone. I've only dumped the kite
        in the water 4-5 times in nearly a year of kitesurfing. And of those
        times I was trying some weird surfing move on a wave or getting my
        board tossed between the lines by the whitewater. Since I fly
        non-waterrelaunchable kites I do stay within a reasonable swimming
        distance of the shore (when in the ocean) or an island (when in the
        lagoon).
        With practice you should develop your grip strength and technique to
        the point that losing your kite will not cross your mind while surfing.
        I've also found that the simpler your kitesurfing gear the better.
        There is already to many things to go wrong to add more parts to get
        broken or tangled! Have fun and surf hard. ONe more tip: Only grip
        the handles with your fingers not your hands, that is do not grab the
        handles so that the main line is touching the skin in the V between
        your index finger and middle finger. I hold the handles so that the
        main line is between the 2nd and 3rd knukle of my finger. I do not get
        blisters or sores from the line rubbing.

        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4759
        > I usually have a (as Todd calls it) a Death Grip on the handles.
        > But this is very hard on the tendons and in cold conditions can
        > numb the fingers (at least on the dry lake bed it does). So it
        > is nice to relax a bit when harnessed in. But odd things can happen;
        > that odd wave or chop, harness lines can break (it happened..),
        > fish or other animals can scare you (maybe it's just me).
        >
        > Has anyone tied a single line from one of the brake lines (quad line
        > kite) to a wrist leash? It would have to be a significant distance
        > away from the handles so that if the handles are dropped, one brake
        > line is fully applied (no top line tension at all). And this is
        > going to depend on the chrord (width) of the kite. Of course
        > the kite is going to spin wildly, but no handles flying and no
        > kite to swim after.
        >
        > fritz@... wrote:
        >
        > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
        Besided
        > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
        > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
        > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
        > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
        > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
        problem to
        > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
        > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
        you
        > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
        blown
        > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
        it's
        > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
        > > untangle it.
        >
        > --
        > Steve Bateman geokite at sprintmail dot com
        > The best health info is at http://www.healthcentral.com
      • Ronald Kittag
        ... I have. But to both brake-lines. The connection looks like a Y. It totally depowers the kite, without making it spin like crazy.But there s a potential to
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 3 12:21 AM
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          > Has anyone tied a single line from one of the brake lines (quad line
          > kite) to a wrist leash?

          I have. But to both brake-lines. The connection looks like a Y. It totally
          depowers the kite, without making it spin like crazy.But there's a potential
          to get tangled with your feet or board. You could reduce the risk by using
          rubberbands to hold it near the line where you have the leash on. But then
          you can't ride nohanded.
          By the way, I don't use it anymore.
          Ronald
        • Peter A. Traykovski
          ... I use lines from a wrist leash to both brake lines. It is fastened at the end of the leaders about 8 away from the handles. This way if the handles do
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 3 6:45 AM
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            > Has anyone tied a single line from one of the brake lines (quad line
            > kite) to a wrist leash? It would have to be a significant distance
            > away from the handles so that if the handles are dropped, one brake
            > line is fully applied (no top line tension at all). And this is
            > going to depend on the chrord (width) of the kite. Of course
            > the kite is going to spin wildly, but no handles flying and no
            > kite to swim after.

            I use lines from a wrist leash to both brake lines. It is fastened at the
            end of the leaders about 8" away from the handles. This way if the handles do
            get ripped out of my hands in a wipe out both brakes will be applied evenly,
            the kite fill simply fall down and not spin wildly. It works pretty well. The
            only issue is that it is one more line to tangle, but the benefits seem worth
            it especially if a I am a bit overpowered. Make sure to have enough slack in
            these lines to not tension the wrong brake line when turning the kite. I
            also use a quick release between the wrist leash and the lines in case a
            motor boat or something gets my lines and I have to release from it.

            -Peter
          • Cory Roeseler
            ... I agree 100% Cory
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 3 9:28 AM
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              >If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey release
              >system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
              >handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to cause
              >serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.


              I agree 100%

              Cory
            • Felix Pantlen
              Hi, I am looking for spots in NL to go kiting and kitesurifing. Any good tips? Regards, Felix
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 3 9:37 AM
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                Hi,

                I am looking for spots in NL to go kiting and kitesurifing.

                Any good tips?

                Regards,
                Felix
              • fritz@kepnet.com
                ... go of ... And I ... out of ... and ... Yes I did misunderstand unhooking a harness line and letting go of your handles are two entirely different things.
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 3 10:09 AM
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                  > Fritz,
                  >
                  > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER let
                  go of
                  > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on water.
                  And I
                  > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get ripped
                  out of
                  > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to yourself
                  and
                  > everyone around you, pure and simple.
                  Yes I did misunderstand unhooking a harness line and letting go of your
                  handles are two entirely different things.
                  >
                  > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the loop
                  > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
                  purpose
                  > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
                  easier to
                  > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it impossible to
                  > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
                  However, with

                  Do you have plastic tubbing on your harness line? I don't use a
                  reactor bar any more, I personally didn't like the loose control, but
                  remember similar problems and think using a harness line with plastic
                  tubing, similar to most windsurfing ones prevented it.

                  > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in the
                  split
                  > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The result
                  is NOT
                  > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's not
                  losing
                  > control in the first place.
                  Except in light winds I prefer to be harnessed in and have no loss of
                  control of the kite. In light winds I like to be able to feel the kite
                  more.

                  Torpedoing is not something I do frequently but I do occasionally find
                  myself sailing very powered up after a sudden wind change. I can sail
                  under control in these situations but occasional have a very nasty wipe
                  out at speed which results in torpedoing. Usually when I wipe out my
                  head stays above the water and I just body drag until my kite gets to
                  the edge of the wind window. Occasionally I find my self underwater
                  torpedoing.
                  >
                  > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
                  non-relaunchable
                  > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater by
                  a Quad
                  > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't soon
                  want to
                  > repeat. Happy winds,
                  >
                  I am flying the same kites and have had the same experience but didn't
                  think it was too bad, most recently I did it with an XL in wind gusting
                  over 30 mph. I usually use 75' lines which allow the kite to get to
                  the edge of the wind window faster than longer lines. Perhaps with
                  longer lines it is not so nice. I also have been power kiting for over
                  10 years and have had much worse experiences on land.

                  I know the game of control I also like to push my limits and don't
                  always fly in ideal wind conditions, so I occasionaly crash the kite.
                  Because I fly nonwater launchables I don't go out further than I want
                  to swim.

                  Latter-
                  Fritz


                  > Dave
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: <fritz@...>
                  > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
                  > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4746
                  > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had my
                  > > hands on
                  > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd rather
                  > > have the
                  > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should be
                  off.
                  > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall. It
                  has
                  > > never
                  > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
                  tension
                  > > when
                  > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while turning
                  (which
                  > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
                  which
                  > > is best,
                  > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
                  > > experience.
                  > > >
                  > > > Dave
                  > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned down.
                  > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On the
                  water
                  > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
                  does on
                  > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on water.
                  > >
                  > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
                  keep
                  > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing, being
                  body
                  > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
                  able to
                  > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If you
                  > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
                  larger
                  > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does. I
                  > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
                  handles
                  > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and you
                  can
                  > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged under
                  > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body drags
                  I've
                  > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
                  wave.
                  > >
                  > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
                  Besided
                  > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
                  > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
                  > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
                  > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
                  > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
                  problem to
                  > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
                  > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
                  you
                  > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
                  blown
                  > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
                  it's
                  > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
                  > > untangle it.
                  > >
                  > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
                  release
                  > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
                  > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to
                  cause
                  > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
                  > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                  > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
                  > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
                  water. I
                  > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
                  Quad
                  > > when
                  > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
                  need
                  > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
                  could get
                  > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me! How
                  do
                  > > you
                  > > > > avoid this?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Jeff
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                  > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
                  732
                  > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used a
                  > > Reactor
                  > > > > bar for
                  > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down" i.e.,
                  > > > > pointing up.
                  > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank the
                  loop
                  > > up
                  > > > > off the
                  > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
                  the bar
                  > > > > the way
                  > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with DeKine
                  > > Thermoform
                  > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times in
                  gusts
                  > > > > and got
                  > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for longer
                  a
                  > > few
                  > > > > seconds.
                  > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
                  free
                  > > than
                  > > > > when
                  > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
                  haven't
                  > > had
                  > > > > problems
                  > > > > > since.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a lot
                  on how
                  > > > > much
                  > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as tight
                  as I
                  > > > > can and
                  > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
                  > > available
                  > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Dave
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                  > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                  > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
                  > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do put one
                  > > finger
                  > > > > on
                  > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I dont
                  > > harness
                  > > > > in.
                  > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but I
                  guess
                  > > I
                  > > > > need
                  > > > > > > to get used to it!
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
                  > > > > > > Jeff
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                  > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
                  rt=4
                  > > 710
                  > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                  > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds like
                  you
                  > > > > need a
                  > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
                  control.
                  > > > > You
                  > > > > > > can
                  > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
                  better
                  > > > > choice
                  > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is more
                  > > > > anatomically
                  > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
                  line?
                  > > If
                  > > > > you do
                  > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
                  might
                  > > also
                  > > > > need
                  > > > > > > a
                  > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line. If I
                  use
                  > > to
                  > > > > long
                  > > > > > > of
                  > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other handle
                  when
                  > > > > you do
                  > > > > > > a
                  > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked in
                  do the
                  > > > > rail
                  > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
                  > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles give
                  > > much
                  > > > > more
                  > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
                  C-Quads
                  > > > > myself.
                  > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?s
                  tart
                  > > =4701
                  > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line handles
                  > > while
                  > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed in)
                  my
                  > > > > forearms
                  > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip giving
                  out.
                  > > I
                  > > > > ended
                  > > > > > > up
                  > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over handles.
                  For
                  > > > > one, you
                  > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course) with one
                  > > arm, do
                  > > > > > > rail
                  > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
                  360's
                  > > would
                  > > > > > > seem
                  > > > > > > > a
                  > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control bar,
                  > > and it
                  > > > > just
                  > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                  > > > > > > > > Jeff
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • Todd Snyder
                  hey Fritz !!!!!!!!! You hear anything about quadrifoil coming out with a semi water launchable kite?
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 3 11:27 AM
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                    hey Fritz !!!!!!!!!

                    You hear anything about quadrifoil coming out with a semi water launchable
                    kite?

                    fritz@... wrote:

                    > > Fritz,
                    > >
                    > > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER let
                    > go of
                    > > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on water.
                    > And I
                    > > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get ripped
                    > out of
                    > > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to yourself
                    > and
                    > > everyone around you, pure and simple.
                    > Yes I did misunderstand unhooking a harness line and letting go of your
                    > handles are two entirely different things.
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the loop
                    > > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
                    > purpose
                    > > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
                    > easier to
                    > > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it impossible to
                    > > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
                    > However, with
                    >
                    > Do you have plastic tubbing on your harness line? I don't use a
                    > reactor bar any more, I personally didn't like the loose control, but
                    > remember similar problems and think using a harness line with plastic
                    > tubing, similar to most windsurfing ones prevented it.
                    >
                    > > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in the
                    > split
                    > > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The result
                    > is NOT
                    > > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's not
                    > losing
                    > > control in the first place.
                    > Except in light winds I prefer to be harnessed in and have no loss of
                    > control of the kite. In light winds I like to be able to feel the kite
                    > more.
                    >
                    > Torpedoing is not something I do frequently but I do occasionally find
                    > myself sailing very powered up after a sudden wind change. I can sail
                    > under control in these situations but occasional have a very nasty wipe
                    > out at speed which results in torpedoing. Usually when I wipe out my
                    > head stays above the water and I just body drag until my kite gets to
                    > the edge of the wind window. Occasionally I find my self underwater
                    > torpedoing.
                    > >
                    > > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
                    > non-relaunchable
                    > > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater by
                    > a Quad
                    > > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't soon
                    > want to
                    > > repeat. Happy winds,
                    > >
                    > I am flying the same kites and have had the same experience but didn't
                    > think it was too bad, most recently I did it with an XL in wind gusting
                    > over 30 mph. I usually use 75' lines which allow the kite to get to
                    > the edge of the wind window faster than longer lines. Perhaps with
                    > longer lines it is not so nice. I also have been power kiting for over
                    > 10 years and have had much worse experiences on land.
                    >
                    > I know the game of control I also like to push my limits and don't
                    > always fly in ideal wind conditions, so I occasionaly crash the kite.
                    > Because I fly nonwater launchables I don't go out further than I want
                    > to swim.
                    >
                    > Latter-
                    > Fritz
                    >
                    > > Dave
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: <fritz@...>
                    > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
                    > > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4746
                    > > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had my
                    > > > hands on
                    > > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd rather
                    > > > have the
                    > > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should be
                    > off.
                    > > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall. It
                    > has
                    > > > never
                    > > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
                    > tension
                    > > > when
                    > > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while turning
                    > (which
                    > > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
                    > which
                    > > > is best,
                    > > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
                    > > > experience.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Dave
                    > > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned down.
                    > > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On the
                    > water
                    > > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
                    > does on
                    > > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on water.
                    > > >
                    > > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
                    > keep
                    > > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing, being
                    > body
                    > > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
                    > able to
                    > > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If you
                    > > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
                    > larger
                    > > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does. I
                    > > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
                    > handles
                    > > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and you
                    > can
                    > > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged under
                    > > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body drags
                    > I've
                    > > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
                    > wave.
                    > > >
                    > > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
                    > Besided
                    > > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
                    > > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
                    > > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
                    > > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
                    > > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
                    > problem to
                    > > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
                    > > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
                    > you
                    > > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
                    > blown
                    > > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
                    > it's
                    > > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
                    > > > untangle it.
                    > > >
                    > > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
                    > release
                    > > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
                    > > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to
                    > cause
                    > > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
                    > > >
                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                    > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                    > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
                    > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
                    > water. I
                    > > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
                    > Quad
                    > > > when
                    > > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
                    > need
                    > > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
                    > could get
                    > > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me! How
                    > do
                    > > > you
                    > > > > > avoid this?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Jeff
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                    > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
                    > 732
                    > > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used a
                    > > > Reactor
                    > > > > > bar for
                    > > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down" i.e.,
                    > > > > > pointing up.
                    > > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank the
                    > loop
                    > > > up
                    > > > > > off the
                    > > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
                    > the bar
                    > > > > > the way
                    > > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with DeKine
                    > > > Thermoform
                    > > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times in
                    > gusts
                    > > > > > and got
                    > > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for longer
                    > a
                    > > > few
                    > > > > > seconds.
                    > > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
                    > free
                    > > > than
                    > > > > > when
                    > > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
                    > haven't
                    > > > had
                    > > > > > problems
                    > > > > > > since.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a lot
                    > on how
                    > > > > > much
                    > > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as tight
                    > as I
                    > > > > > can and
                    > > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
                    > > > available
                    > > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Dave
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                    > > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                    > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
                    > > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do put one
                    > > > finger
                    > > > > > on
                    > > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I dont
                    > > > harness
                    > > > > > in.
                    > > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but I
                    > guess
                    > > > I
                    > > > > > need
                    > > > > > > > to get used to it!
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
                    > > > > > > > Jeff
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                    > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
                    > rt=4
                    > > > 710
                    > > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                    > > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds like
                    > you
                    > > > > > need a
                    > > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
                    > control.
                    > > > > > You
                    > > > > > > > can
                    > > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
                    > better
                    > > > > > choice
                    > > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is more
                    > > > > > anatomically
                    > > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
                    > line?
                    > > > If
                    > > > > > you do
                    > > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
                    > might
                    > > > also
                    > > > > > need
                    > > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line. If I
                    > use
                    > > > to
                    > > > > > long
                    > > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other handle
                    > when
                    > > > > > you do
                    > > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked in
                    > do the
                    > > > > > rail
                    > > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
                    > > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles give
                    > > > much
                    > > > > > more
                    > > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
                    > C-Quads
                    > > > > > myself.
                    > > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?s
                    > tart
                    > > > =4701
                    > > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line handles
                    > > > while
                    > > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed in)
                    > my
                    > > > > > forearms
                    > > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip giving
                    > out.
                    > > > I
                    > > > > > ended
                    > > > > > > > up
                    > > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over handles.
                    > For
                    > > > > > one, you
                    > > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course) with one
                    > > > arm, do
                    > > > > > > > rail
                    > > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
                    > 360's
                    > > > would
                    > > > > > > > seem
                    > > > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control bar,
                    > > > and it
                    > > > > > just
                    > > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                    > > > > > > > > > Jeff
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                  • speleopower@yahoo.com
                    speleopowe-@yahoo.com wrote: Yeah, is Quadrifoil releasing a water startable kite soon? I was working at a kite store this spring and the Quadrifoil reps came
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 3 7:01 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      speleopowe-@... wrote:
                      Yeah, is Quadrifoil releasing a water startable kite soon? I was
                      working at a kite store this spring and the Quadrifoil reps came
                      through talking up their water startable kites. We were going to get a
                      kitesurf school going when their kites came out. They said sometime
                      around the Wildwood Kite festival. Anyway the only thing that I got
                      after Wildwood was Peter Lynn C-Quads distributed by Quadrifoil. When
                      that happened I left the store because I really did not like the
                      C-Quads and I did not want to teach using those.
                      P.S. had 6 miles of downwind fun in 3-6 foot surf using my XXXL today.
                      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4773
                      > hey Fritz !!!!!!!!!
                      >
                      > You hear anything about quadrifoil coming out with a semi water
                      launchable
                      > kite?
                      >
                      > fritz@... wrote:
                      >
                      > > > Fritz,
                      > > >
                      > > > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER
                      let
                      > > go of
                      > > > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on
                      water.
                      > > And I
                      > > > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get
                      ripped
                      > > out of
                      > > > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to
                      yourself
                      > > and
                      > > > everyone around you, pure and simple.
                      > > Yes I did misunderstand unhooking a harness line and letting go of
                      your
                      > > handles are two entirely different things.
                      > > >
                      > > > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the
                      loop
                      > > > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
                      > > purpose
                      > > > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
                      > > easier to
                      > > > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it
                      impossible to
                      > > > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
                      > > However, with
                      > >
                      > > Do you have plastic tubbing on your harness line? I don't use a
                      > > reactor bar any more, I personally didn't like the loose control,
                      but
                      > > remember similar problems and think using a harness line with
                      plastic
                      > > tubing, similar to most windsurfing ones prevented it.
                      > >
                      > > > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in
                      the
                      > > split
                      > > > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The
                      result
                      > > is NOT
                      > > > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's
                      not
                      > > losing
                      > > > control in the first place.
                      > > Except in light winds I prefer to be harnessed in and have no loss
                      of
                      > > control of the kite. In light winds I like to be able to feel the
                      kite
                      > > more.
                      > >
                      > > Torpedoing is not something I do frequently but I do occasionally
                      find
                      > > myself sailing very powered up after a sudden wind change. I can
                      sail
                      > > under control in these situations but occasional have a very nasty
                      wipe
                      > > out at speed which results in torpedoing. Usually when I wipe out
                      my
                      > > head stays above the water and I just body drag until my kite gets
                      to
                      > > the edge of the wind window. Occasionally I find my self underwater
                      > > torpedoing.
                      > > >
                      > > > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
                      > > non-relaunchable
                      > > > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater
                      by
                      > > a Quad
                      > > > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't
                      soon
                      > > want to
                      > > > repeat. Happy winds,
                      > > >
                      > > I am flying the same kites and have had the same experience but
                      didn't
                      > > think it was too bad, most recently I did it with an XL in wind
                      gusting
                      > > over 30 mph. I usually use 75' lines which allow the kite to get to
                      > > the edge of the wind window faster than longer lines. Perhaps with
                      > > longer lines it is not so nice. I also have been power kiting for
                      over
                      > > 10 years and have had much worse experiences on land.
                      > >
                      > > I know the game of control I also like to push my limits and don't
                      > > always fly in ideal wind conditions, so I occasionaly crash the
                      kite.
                      > > Because I fly nonwater launchables I don't go out further than I
                      want
                      > > to swim.
                      > >
                      > > Latter-
                      > > Fritz
                      > >
                      > > > Dave
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: <fritz@...>
                      > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
                      > > > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
                      746
                      > > > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had
                      my
                      > > > > hands on
                      > > > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd
                      rather
                      > > > > have the
                      > > > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should
                      be
                      > > off.
                      > > > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall.
                      It
                      > > has
                      > > > > never
                      > > > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
                      > > tension
                      > > > > when
                      > > > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while
                      turning
                      > > (which
                      > > > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
                      > > which
                      > > > > is best,
                      > > > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
                      > > > > experience.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Dave
                      > > > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned
                      down.
                      > > > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On
                      the
                      > > water
                      > > > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
                      > > does on
                      > > > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on
                      water.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
                      > > keep
                      > > > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing,
                      being
                      > > body
                      > > > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
                      > > able to
                      > > > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If
                      you
                      > > > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
                      > > larger
                      > > > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does.
                      I
                      > > > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
                      > > handles
                      > > > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and
                      you
                      > > can
                      > > > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged
                      under
                      > > > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body
                      drags
                      > > I've
                      > > > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
                      > > wave.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
                      > > Besided
                      > > > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is
                      also
                      > > > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick
                      release
                      > > > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance
                      1-2
                      > > > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
                      > > > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
                      > > problem to
                      > > > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On
                      the
                      > > > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is
                      windy
                      > > you
                      > > > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it
                      gets
                      > > blown
                      > > > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
                      > > it's
                      > > > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able
                      to
                      > > > > untangle it.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
                      > > release
                      > > > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending
                      your
                      > > > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential
                      to
                      > > cause
                      > > > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                      > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                      > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
                      > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
                      > > water. I
                      > > > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
                      > > Quad
                      > > > > when
                      > > > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
                      > > need
                      > > > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
                      > > could get
                      > > > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me!
                      How
                      > > do
                      > > > > you
                      > > > > > > avoid this?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Jeff
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                      > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
                      rt=4
                      > > 732
                      > > > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used
                      a
                      > > > > Reactor
                      > > > > > > bar for
                      > > > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down"
                      i.e.,
                      > > > > > > pointing up.
                      > > > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank
                      the
                      > > loop
                      > > > > up
                      > > > > > > off the
                      > > > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
                      > > the bar
                      > > > > > > the way
                      > > > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with
                      DeKine
                      > > > > Thermoform
                      > > > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times
                      in
                      > > gusts
                      > > > > > > and got
                      > > > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for
                      longer
                      > > a
                      > > > > few
                      > > > > > > seconds.
                      > > > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
                      > > free
                      > > > > than
                      > > > > > > when
                      > > > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
                      > > haven't
                      > > > > had
                      > > > > > > problems
                      > > > > > > > since.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a
                      lot
                      > > on how
                      > > > > > > much
                      > > > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as
                      tight
                      > > as I
                      > > > > > > can and
                      > > > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
                      > > > > available
                      > > > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Dave
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                      > > > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                      > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
                      > > > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do
                      put one
                      > > > > finger
                      > > > > > > on
                      > > > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I
                      dont
                      > > > > harness
                      > > > > > > in.
                      > > > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but
                      I
                      > > guess
                      > > > > I
                      > > > > > > need
                      > > > > > > > > to get used to it!
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
                      > > > > > > > > Jeff
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/
                      ?sta
                      > > rt=4
                      > > > > 710
                      > > > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds
                      like
                      > > you
                      > > > > > > need a
                      > > > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
                      > > control.
                      > > > > > > You
                      > > > > > > > > can
                      > > > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
                      > > better
                      > > > > > > choice
                      > > > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is
                      more
                      > > > > > > anatomically
                      > > > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
                      > > line?
                      > > > > If
                      > > > > > > you do
                      > > > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
                      > > might
                      > > > > also
                      > > > > > > need
                      > > > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line.
                      If I
                      > > use
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > > > long
                      > > > > > > > > of
                      > > > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other
                      handle
                      > > when
                      > > > > > > you do
                      > > > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked
                      in
                      > > do the
                      > > > > > > rail
                      > > > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
                      > > > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles
                      give
                      > > > > much
                      > > > > > > more
                      > > > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
                      > > C-Quads
                      > > > > > > myself.
                      > > > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesur
                      f/?s
                      > > tart
                      > > > > =4701
                      > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line
                      handles
                      > > > > while
                      > > > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed
                      in)
                      > > my
                      > > > > > > forearms
                      > > > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip
                      giving
                      > > out.
                      > > > > I
                      > > > > > > ended
                      > > > > > > > > up
                      > > > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over
                      handles.
                      > > For
                      > > > > > > one, you
                      > > > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course)
                      with one
                      > > > > arm, do
                      > > > > > > > > rail
                      > > > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
                      > > 360's
                      > > > > would
                      > > > > > > > > seem
                      > > > > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control
                      bar,
                      > > > > and it
                      > > > > > > just
                      > > > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                      > > > > > > > > > > Jeff
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > >
                    • David Raue
                      Seems like there has been lots of good discussion on the topic! Different strokes for different folks. When I m at the point of venturing in the surf I ll
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 4 1:24 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Seems like there has been lots of good discussion on the topic! Different
                        strokes for different folks. When I'm at the point of venturing in the surf
                        I'll probably flip it back around. By the way, speleopowe-, were you
                        kitesurfing in the 8+ ft surf with the XXXL? If you were, you're a batter
                        man than I. But I have bodydragged/surfed in the same conditions, right
                        through similar waves. Unhooked of course. And I agree, anybody flying
                        with handles ought to develop a death-grip (rock-climbing will do the trick,
                        I've found, and there's nothing else that comes close for ape-like forearm
                        and finger strength).

                        Here's a final point of contraversy - if you're dragged by just hanging onto
                        the handles, you're not putting any stress on your back, it's basically the
                        same geometry as hanging from a branch (with weights on). Dragging hooked
                        in puts all the force at your midsection, or where ever the fulcrum from the
                        harness across your body happens to be. Fox Hatteras recommends the deKine
                        Thermoform harness for this reason, it's placed pretty high up compared to a
                        seat harness. At my advanced age of 46 I'm not willing to subject my back
                        the the stuff I used to.

                        Dave
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <speleopower@...>
                        To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 10:17 PM
                        Subject: [ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles


                        > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                        > Just wanted to add. I've tried the reactor bar upside down myself and
                        > have found that the loop pops off to easily especially in the surf. I
                        > do have a XXXL and have flown it in 12 mph wind with 8+ foot surf. I'd
                        > rather not lose my kite then get tangled in the line or tangle another
                        > surfer in my line. I've been dragged by my XXXL both hooked in and
                        > unhooked. It was much better hooked in. Getting pulled through the
                        > water is tough enough but getting your arms stretched out is less
                        > appealing than holding my breath for a couple of seconds. Sometimes I
                        > do a little soul surfing with my both hands behind my head cruising on
                        > a wave and would rather not have the embarassement and hassle of my
                        > handles popping off while some cuties are watching on the beach. I
                        > thought it would be better witht he bar upside down. It worked until I
                        > got comfortable kitesurfing and figured out what works for me in the
                        > conditions I usually flysurf in. keep at it and dont give up. Use
                        > what ever method works for you! Above all have fun and look good while
                        > doing it! ;-)
                        > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4757
                        > > Fritz,
                        > >
                        > > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER let
                        > go of
                        > > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on water.
                        > And I
                        > > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get ripped
                        > out of
                        > > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to yourself
                        > and
                        > > everyone around you, pure and simple.
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the loop
                        > > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
                        > purpose
                        > > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
                        > easier to
                        > > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it impossible to
                        > > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
                        > However, with
                        > > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in the
                        > split
                        > > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The result
                        > is NOT
                        > > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's not
                        > losing
                        > > control in the first place.
                        > >
                        > > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
                        > non-relaunchable
                        > > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater by
                        > a Quad
                        > > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't soon
                        > want to
                        > > repeat. Happy winds,
                        > >
                        > > Dave
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: <fritz@...>
                        > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
                        > > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4746
                        > > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had my
                        > > > hands on
                        > > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd rather
                        > > > have the
                        > > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should be
                        > off.
                        > > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall. It
                        > has
                        > > > never
                        > > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
                        > tension
                        > > > when
                        > > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while turning
                        > (which
                        > > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
                        > which
                        > > > is best,
                        > > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
                        > > > experience.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Dave
                        > > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned down.
                        > > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On the
                        > water
                        > > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
                        > does on
                        > > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on water.
                        > > >
                        > > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
                        > keep
                        > > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing, being
                        > body
                        > > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
                        > able to
                        > > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If you
                        > > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
                        > larger
                        > > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does. I
                        > > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
                        > handles
                        > > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and you
                        > can
                        > > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged under
                        > > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body drags
                        > I've
                        > > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
                        > wave.
                        > > >
                        > > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
                        > Besided
                        > > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
                        > > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
                        > > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
                        > > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
                        > > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
                        > problem to
                        > > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
                        > > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
                        > you
                        > > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
                        > blown
                        > > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
                        > it's
                        > > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
                        > > > untangle it.
                        > > >
                        > > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
                        > release
                        > > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
                        > > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to
                        > cause
                        > > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
                        > > >
                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                        > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                        > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
                        > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
                        > water. I
                        > > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
                        > Quad
                        > > > when
                        > > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
                        > need
                        > > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
                        > could get
                        > > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me! How
                        > do
                        > > > you
                        > > > > > avoid this?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Jeff
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                        > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
                        > 732
                        > > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used a
                        > > > Reactor
                        > > > > > bar for
                        > > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down" i.e.,
                        > > > > > pointing up.
                        > > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank the
                        > loop
                        > > > up
                        > > > > > off the
                        > > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
                        > the bar
                        > > > > > the way
                        > > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with DeKine
                        > > > Thermoform
                        > > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times in
                        > gusts
                        > > > > > and got
                        > > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for longer
                        > a
                        > > > few
                        > > > > > seconds.
                        > > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
                        > free
                        > > > than
                        > > > > > when
                        > > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
                        > haven't
                        > > > had
                        > > > > > problems
                        > > > > > > since.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a lot
                        > on how
                        > > > > > much
                        > > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as tight
                        > as I
                        > > > > > can and
                        > > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
                        > > > available
                        > > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Dave
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                        > > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                        > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
                        > > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do put one
                        > > > finger
                        > > > > > on
                        > > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I dont
                        > > > harness
                        > > > > > in.
                        > > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but I
                        > guess
                        > > > I
                        > > > > > need
                        > > > > > > > to get used to it!
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
                        > > > > > > > Jeff
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                        > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
                        > rt=4
                        > > > 710
                        > > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds like
                        > you
                        > > > > > need a
                        > > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
                        > control.
                        > > > > > You
                        > > > > > > > can
                        > > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
                        > better
                        > > > > > choice
                        > > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is more
                        > > > > > anatomically
                        > > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
                        > line?
                        > > > If
                        > > > > > you do
                        > > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
                        > might
                        > > > also
                        > > > > > need
                        > > > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line. If I
                        > use
                        > > > to
                        > > > > > long
                        > > > > > > > of
                        > > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other handle
                        > when
                        > > > > > you do
                        > > > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked in
                        > do the
                        > > > > > rail
                        > > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
                        > > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles give
                        > > > much
                        > > > > > more
                        > > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
                        > C-Quads
                        > > > > > myself.
                        > > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?s
                        > tart
                        > > > =4701
                        > > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line handles
                        > > > while
                        > > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed in)
                        > my
                        > > > > > forearms
                        > > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip giving
                        > out.
                        > > > I
                        > > > > > ended
                        > > > > > > > up
                        > > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over handles.
                        > For
                        > > > > > one, you
                        > > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course) with one
                        > > > arm, do
                        > > > > > > > rail
                        > > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
                        > 360's
                        > > > would
                        > > > > > > > seem
                        > > > > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control bar,
                        > > > and it
                        > > > > > just
                        > > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > > > > > > > Jeff
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        >
                        >
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                      • David Raue
                        Hi Fritz, Thanks for the comments, sounds like I pretty much share your views. I don t torpedo much either, and usually my head is out of the water. But I
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 4 1:39 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Fritz,
                          Thanks for the comments, sounds like I pretty much share your views. I
                          don't torpedo much either, and usually my head is out of the water. But I
                          DID have a very scary experience with an XXXL (150 foot lines!!) in a strong
                          gust (don't know how strong), where I was completely submerged and the water
                          pressure was so high I could scarcely keep my mouth sealed. I'm talking
                          about struggling to keep a firehose from being jammed down my throat. You
                          can always imagine something a little worse occuring, so I've adopted a more
                          conservative view.

                          dave
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <fritz@...>
                          To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 1:09 PM
                          Subject: [ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles


                          >
                          > > Fritz,
                          > >
                          > > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER let
                          > go of
                          > > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on water.
                          > And I
                          > > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get ripped
                          > out of
                          > > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to yourself
                          > and
                          > > everyone around you, pure and simple.
                          > Yes I did misunderstand unhooking a harness line and letting go of your
                          > handles are two entirely different things.
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the loop
                          > > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
                          > purpose
                          > > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
                          > easier to
                          > > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it impossible to
                          > > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
                          > However, with
                          >
                          > Do you have plastic tubbing on your harness line? I don't use a
                          > reactor bar any more, I personally didn't like the loose control, but
                          > remember similar problems and think using a harness line with plastic
                          > tubing, similar to most windsurfing ones prevented it.
                          >
                          > > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in the
                          > split
                          > > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The result
                          > is NOT
                          > > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's not
                          > losing
                          > > control in the first place.
                          > Except in light winds I prefer to be harnessed in and have no loss of
                          > control of the kite. In light winds I like to be able to feel the kite
                          > more.
                          >
                          > Torpedoing is not something I do frequently but I do occasionally find
                          > myself sailing very powered up after a sudden wind change. I can sail
                          > under control in these situations but occasional have a very nasty wipe
                          > out at speed which results in torpedoing. Usually when I wipe out my
                          > head stays above the water and I just body drag until my kite gets to
                          > the edge of the wind window. Occasionally I find my self underwater
                          > torpedoing.
                          > >
                          > > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
                          > non-relaunchable
                          > > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater by
                          > a Quad
                          > > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't soon
                          > want to
                          > > repeat. Happy winds,
                          > >
                          > I am flying the same kites and have had the same experience but didn't
                          > think it was too bad, most recently I did it with an XL in wind gusting
                          > over 30 mph. I usually use 75' lines which allow the kite to get to
                          > the edge of the wind window faster than longer lines. Perhaps with
                          > longer lines it is not so nice. I also have been power kiting for over
                          > 10 years and have had much worse experiences on land.
                          >
                          > I know the game of control I also like to push my limits and don't
                          > always fly in ideal wind conditions, so I occasionaly crash the kite.
                          > Because I fly nonwater launchables I don't go out further than I want
                          > to swim.
                          >
                          > Latter-
                          > Fritz
                          >
                          >
                          > > Dave
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: <fritz@...>
                          > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
                          > > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4746
                          > > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had my
                          > > > hands on
                          > > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd rather
                          > > > have the
                          > > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should be
                          > off.
                          > > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall. It
                          > has
                          > > > never
                          > > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
                          > tension
                          > > > when
                          > > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while turning
                          > (which
                          > > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
                          > which
                          > > > is best,
                          > > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
                          > > > experience.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Dave
                          > > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned down.
                          > > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On the
                          > water
                          > > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
                          > does on
                          > > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on water.
                          > > >
                          > > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
                          > keep
                          > > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing, being
                          > body
                          > > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
                          > able to
                          > > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If you
                          > > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
                          > larger
                          > > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does. I
                          > > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
                          > handles
                          > > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and you
                          > can
                          > > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged under
                          > > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body drags
                          > I've
                          > > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
                          > wave.
                          > > >
                          > > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
                          > Besided
                          > > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
                          > > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
                          > > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
                          > > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
                          > > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
                          > problem to
                          > > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
                          > > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
                          > you
                          > > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
                          > blown
                          > > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
                          > it's
                          > > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
                          > > > untangle it.
                          > > >
                          > > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
                          > release
                          > > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
                          > > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to
                          > cause
                          > > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
                          > > >
                          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                          > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
                          > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
                          > water. I
                          > > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
                          > Quad
                          > > > when
                          > > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
                          > need
                          > > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
                          > could get
                          > > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me! How
                          > do
                          > > > you
                          > > > > > avoid this?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Jeff
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                          > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
                          > 732
                          > > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used a
                          > > > Reactor
                          > > > > > bar for
                          > > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down" i.e.,
                          > > > > > pointing up.
                          > > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank the
                          > loop
                          > > > up
                          > > > > > off the
                          > > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
                          > the bar
                          > > > > > the way
                          > > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with DeKine
                          > > > Thermoform
                          > > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times in
                          > gusts
                          > > > > > and got
                          > > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for longer
                          > a
                          > > > few
                          > > > > > seconds.
                          > > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
                          > free
                          > > > than
                          > > > > > when
                          > > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
                          > haven't
                          > > > had
                          > > > > > problems
                          > > > > > > since.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a lot
                          > on how
                          > > > > > much
                          > > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as tight
                          > as I
                          > > > > > can and
                          > > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
                          > > > available
                          > > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Dave
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                          > > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                          > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
                          > > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do put one
                          > > > finger
                          > > > > > on
                          > > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I dont
                          > > > harness
                          > > > > > in.
                          > > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but I
                          > guess
                          > > > I
                          > > > > > need
                          > > > > > > > to get used to it!
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
                          > > > > > > > Jeff
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                          > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
                          > rt=4
                          > > > 710
                          > > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                          > > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds like
                          > you
                          > > > > > need a
                          > > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
                          > control.
                          > > > > > You
                          > > > > > > > can
                          > > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
                          > better
                          > > > > > choice
                          > > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is more
                          > > > > > anatomically
                          > > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
                          > line?
                          > > > If
                          > > > > > you do
                          > > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
                          > might
                          > > > also
                          > > > > > need
                          > > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line. If I
                          > use
                          > > > to
                          > > > > > long
                          > > > > > > > of
                          > > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other handle
                          > when
                          > > > > > you do
                          > > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked in
                          > do the
                          > > > > > rail
                          > > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
                          > > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles give
                          > > > much
                          > > > > > more
                          > > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
                          > C-Quads
                          > > > > > myself.
                          > > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?s
                          > tart
                          > > > =4701
                          > > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line handles
                          > > > while
                          > > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed in)
                          > my
                          > > > > > forearms
                          > > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip giving
                          > out.
                          > > > I
                          > > > > > ended
                          > > > > > > > up
                          > > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over handles.
                          > For
                          > > > > > one, you
                          > > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course) with one
                          > > > arm, do
                          > > > > > > > rail
                          > > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
                          > 360's
                          > > > would
                          > > > > > > > seem
                          > > > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control bar,
                          > > > and it
                          > > > > > just
                          > > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                          > > > > > > > > > Jeff
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                        • Frank Kubin
                          Hello Dave, Glad to know there are other advanced age kitesurfers out there. Turning 45 soon myself. I ve been doing this for about two years now with WIPIKA
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 7 7:51 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Dave,

                            Glad to know there are other 'advanced age' kitesurfers out there. Turning
                            45 soon myself. I've been doing this for about two years now with WIPIKA and
                            Fone board. Just starting to try other kites, ATK650 & Cquad. I've been
                            using a dakine chest harness lately, even for getting started. The high hook
                            keeps the bar at a better position for me. So far I've just been going in a
                            sheltered bay but am looking to start out on the surf.

                            Frank, NYC



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: David Raue [mailto:theraves@...]
                            Sent: Saturday, September 04, 1999 4:24 PM
                            To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                            Subject: [ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles


                            Seems like there has been lots of good discussion on the topic! Different
                            strokes for different folks. When I'm at the point of venturing in the surf
                            I'll probably flip it back around. By the way, speleopowe-, were you
                            kitesurfing in the 8+ ft surf with the XXXL? If you were, you're a batter
                            man than I. But I have bodydragged/surfed in the same conditions, right
                            through similar waves. Unhooked of course. And I agree, anybody flying
                            with handles ought to develop a death-grip (rock-climbing will do the trick,
                            I've found, and there's nothing else that comes close for ape-like forearm
                            and finger strength).

                            Here's a final point of contraversy - if you're dragged by just hanging onto
                            the handles, you're not putting any stress on your back, it's basically the
                            same geometry as hanging from a branch (with weights on). Dragging hooked
                            in puts all the force at your midsection, or where ever the fulcrum from the
                            harness across your body happens to be. Fox Hatteras recommends the deKine
                            Thermoform harness for this reason, it's placed pretty high up compared to a
                            seat harness. At my advanced age of 46 I'm not willing to subject my back
                            the the stuff I used to.

                            Dave
                          • David Raue
                            Hi Frank, Drat, you discovered kitesurfing 2 years before me, giving you that much more fun! I really just started kitesurfing this summer after a long winter
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 7 6:01 PM
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                              Hi Frank,
                              Drat, you discovered kitesurfing 2 years before me, giving you that much
                              more fun! I really just started kitesurfing this summer after a long winter
                              of wondering if I could really do it. The conclusion is YES, as I guess
                              you've found out too. Interesting that you've fixed on the high hook
                              position too. Finally, your signature suggests that you're in the City
                              (there's only one). Do you kitesurf in the metro area anywhere, e.g, Jersey
                              shore or LI? I'm up in northern Westchester and on the lookout for choice
                              sites without driving for hours. Tips appreciated, maybe we could hook up
                              sometime - I need all the tips I can get (and I've got many choice kites,
                              none of which is water relaunchable!)

                              Dave
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Frank Kubin <frank@...>
                              To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 10:51 AM
                              Subject: [ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles


                              > Hello Dave,
                              >
                              > Glad to know there are other 'advanced age' kitesurfers out there. Turning
                              > 45 soon myself. I've been doing this for about two years now with WIPIKA
                              and
                              > Fone board. Just starting to try other kites, ATK650 & Cquad. I've been
                              > using a dakine chest harness lately, even for getting started. The high
                              hook
                              > keeps the bar at a better position for me. So far I've just been going in
                              a
                              > sheltered bay but am looking to start out on the surf.
                              >
                              > Frank, NYC
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: David Raue [mailto:theraves@...]
                              > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 1999 4:24 PM
                              > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                              > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles
                              >
                              >
                              > Seems like there has been lots of good discussion on the topic! Different
                              > strokes for different folks. When I'm at the point of venturing in the
                              surf
                              > I'll probably flip it back around. By the way, speleopowe-, were you
                              > kitesurfing in the 8+ ft surf with the XXXL? If you were, you're a batter
                              > man than I. But I have bodydragged/surfed in the same conditions, right
                              > through similar waves. Unhooked of course. And I agree, anybody flying
                              > with handles ought to develop a death-grip (rock-climbing will do the
                              trick,
                              > I've found, and there's nothing else that comes close for ape-like forearm
                              > and finger strength).
                              >
                              > Here's a final point of contraversy - if you're dragged by just hanging
                              onto
                              > the handles, you're not putting any stress on your back, it's basically
                              the
                              > same geometry as hanging from a branch (with weights on). Dragging hooked
                              > in puts all the force at your midsection, or where ever the fulcrum from
                              the
                              > harness across your body happens to be. Fox Hatteras recommends the
                              deKine
                              > Thermoform harness for this reason, it's placed pretty high up compared to
                              a
                              > seat harness. At my advanced age of 46 I'm not willing to subject my back
                              > the the stuff I used to.
                              >
                              > Dave
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online.
                              > Start with up to 150 Points for joining!
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                              >
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