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[ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles

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  • speleopower@yahoo.com
    speleopowe-@yahoo.com wrote: Just wanted to add. I ve tried the reactor bar upside down myself and have found that the loop pops off to easily especially in
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 2, 1999
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      speleopowe-@... wrote:
      Just wanted to add. I've tried the reactor bar upside down myself and
      have found that the loop pops off to easily especially in the surf. I
      do have a XXXL and have flown it in 12 mph wind with 8+ foot surf. I'd
      rather not lose my kite then get tangled in the line or tangle another
      surfer in my line. I've been dragged by my XXXL both hooked in and
      unhooked. It was much better hooked in. Getting pulled through the
      water is tough enough but getting your arms stretched out is less
      appealing than holding my breath for a couple of seconds. Sometimes I
      do a little soul surfing with my both hands behind my head cruising on
      a wave and would rather not have the embarassement and hassle of my
      handles popping off while some cuties are watching on the beach. I
      thought it would be better witht he bar upside down. It worked until I
      got comfortable kitesurfing and figured out what works for me in the
      conditions I usually flysurf in. keep at it and dont give up. Use
      what ever method works for you! Above all have fun and look good while
      doing it! ;-)
      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4757
      > Fritz,
      >
      > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER let
      go of
      > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on water.
      And I
      > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get ripped
      out of
      > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to yourself
      and
      > everyone around you, pure and simple.
      >
      > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the loop
      > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
      purpose
      > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
      easier to
      > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it impossible to
      > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
      However, with
      > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in the
      split
      > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The result
      is NOT
      > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's not
      losing
      > control in the first place.
      >
      > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
      non-relaunchable
      > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater by
      a Quad
      > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't soon
      want to
      > repeat. Happy winds,
      >
      > Dave
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: <fritz@...>
      > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
      > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
      >
      >
      > >
      > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4746
      > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had my
      > > hands on
      > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd rather
      > > have the
      > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should be
      off.
      > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall. It
      has
      > > never
      > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
      tension
      > > when
      > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while turning
      (which
      > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
      which
      > > is best,
      > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
      > > experience.
      > > >
      > > > Dave
      > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned down.
      > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On the
      water
      > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
      does on
      > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on water.
      > >
      > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
      keep
      > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing, being
      body
      > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
      able to
      > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If you
      > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
      larger
      > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does. I
      > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
      handles
      > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and you
      can
      > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged under
      > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body drags
      I've
      > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
      wave.
      > >
      > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
      Besided
      > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
      > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
      > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
      > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
      > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
      problem to
      > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
      > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
      you
      > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
      blown
      > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
      it's
      > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
      > > untangle it.
      > >
      > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
      release
      > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
      > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to
      cause
      > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
      > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: <jquick1@...>
      > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
      > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
      water. I
      > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
      Quad
      > > when
      > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
      need
      > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
      > > > >
      > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
      could get
      > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me! How
      do
      > > you
      > > > > avoid this?
      > > > >
      > > > > Jeff
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
      > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
      732
      > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used a
      > > Reactor
      > > > > bar for
      > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down" i.e.,
      > > > > pointing up.
      > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank the
      loop
      > > up
      > > > > off the
      > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
      the bar
      > > > > the way
      > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with DeKine
      > > Thermoform
      > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times in
      gusts
      > > > > and got
      > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for longer
      a
      > > few
      > > > > seconds.
      > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
      free
      > > than
      > > > > when
      > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
      haven't
      > > had
      > > > > problems
      > > > > > since.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a lot
      on how
      > > > > much
      > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as tight
      as I
      > > > > can and
      > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
      > > available
      > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Dave
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
      > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
      > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do put one
      > > finger
      > > > > on
      > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I dont
      > > harness
      > > > > in.
      > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but I
      guess
      > > I
      > > > > need
      > > > > > > to get used to it!
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
      > > > > > > Jeff
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
      > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
      rt=4
      > > 710
      > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
      > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds like
      you
      > > > > need a
      > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
      control.
      > > > > You
      > > > > > > can
      > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
      better
      > > > > choice
      > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is more
      > > > > anatomically
      > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
      line?
      > > If
      > > > > you do
      > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
      might
      > > also
      > > > > need
      > > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line. If I
      use
      > > to
      > > > > long
      > > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other handle
      when
      > > > > you do
      > > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked in
      do the
      > > > > rail
      > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
      > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles give
      > > much
      > > > > more
      > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
      C-Quads
      > > > > myself.
      > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?s
      tart
      > > =4701
      > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line handles
      > > while
      > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed in)
      my
      > > > > forearms
      > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip giving
      out.
      > > I
      > > > > ended
      > > > > > > up
      > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over handles.
      For
      > > > > one, you
      > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course) with one
      > > arm, do
      > > > > > > rail
      > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
      360's
      > > would
      > > > > > > seem
      > > > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control bar,
      > > and it
      > > > > just
      > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Thanks,
      > > > > > > > > Jeff
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > >
      > >
    • Steve Bateman
      I usually have a (as Todd calls it) a Death Grip on the handles. But this is very hard on the tendons and in cold conditions can numb the fingers (at least on
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 2, 1999
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        I usually have a (as Todd calls it) a Death Grip on the handles.
        But this is very hard on the tendons and in cold conditions can
        numb the fingers (at least on the dry lake bed it does). So it
        is nice to relax a bit when harnessed in. But odd things can happen;
        that odd wave or chop, harness lines can break (it happened..),
        fish or other animals can scare you (maybe it's just me).

        Has anyone tied a single line from one of the brake lines (quad line
        kite) to a wrist leash? It would have to be a significant distance
        away from the handles so that if the handles are dropped, one brake
        line is fully applied (no top line tension at all). And this is
        going to depend on the chrord (width) of the kite. Of course
        the kite is going to spin wildly, but no handles flying and no
        kite to swim after.

        fritz@... wrote:

        > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land. Besided
        > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
        > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
        > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
        > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
        > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a problem to
        > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
        > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy you
        > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets blown
        > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if it's
        > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
        > untangle it.

        --
        Steve Bateman geokite at sprintmail dot com
        The best health info is at http://www.healthcentral.com
      • speleopower@yahoo.com
        speleopowe-@yahoo.com wrote: The main concern is two fold the first concern is, increased drag causing your brakes to be applied from the excess weight of the
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 2, 1999
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          speleopowe-@... wrote: The main concern is two fold the first
          concern is, increased drag causing your brakes to be applied from the
          excess weight of the wrist line, the second and probably more
          compelling reason to not attach a wrist leash line is that of breaking
          the line. Since most brake lines are at least half as strong as the
          main lines if not weaker they would tend to break very easily. If you
          used stronger hence heavier brake lines the increased drag would apply
          the brakes just due to wind drag. Thouh give it a try and let us know
          how it works because I've not tried putting a leash on my brake lines.
          When I first started using foils on the water I thought it would be to
          my advantage to have a wrist leash with a line to one or both brakes.
          I thought a release system on the foils was the only way to do things
          mostly because I started kitesurfing using a Wipika (you have to have a
          leash). Before the wipika I never tried kitesurfing because I figured
          everytime I crashed in the water the kite would soon follow. However,
          after watching lots of people and trying it myself the fear of
          losing/crashing my kite is now almost gone. I've only dumped the kite
          in the water 4-5 times in nearly a year of kitesurfing. And of those
          times I was trying some weird surfing move on a wave or getting my
          board tossed between the lines by the whitewater. Since I fly
          non-waterrelaunchable kites I do stay within a reasonable swimming
          distance of the shore (when in the ocean) or an island (when in the
          lagoon).
          With practice you should develop your grip strength and technique to
          the point that losing your kite will not cross your mind while surfing.
          I've also found that the simpler your kitesurfing gear the better.
          There is already to many things to go wrong to add more parts to get
          broken or tangled! Have fun and surf hard. ONe more tip: Only grip
          the handles with your fingers not your hands, that is do not grab the
          handles so that the main line is touching the skin in the V between
          your index finger and middle finger. I hold the handles so that the
          main line is between the 2nd and 3rd knukle of my finger. I do not get
          blisters or sores from the line rubbing.

          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4759
          > I usually have a (as Todd calls it) a Death Grip on the handles.
          > But this is very hard on the tendons and in cold conditions can
          > numb the fingers (at least on the dry lake bed it does). So it
          > is nice to relax a bit when harnessed in. But odd things can happen;
          > that odd wave or chop, harness lines can break (it happened..),
          > fish or other animals can scare you (maybe it's just me).
          >
          > Has anyone tied a single line from one of the brake lines (quad line
          > kite) to a wrist leash? It would have to be a significant distance
          > away from the handles so that if the handles are dropped, one brake
          > line is fully applied (no top line tension at all). And this is
          > going to depend on the chrord (width) of the kite. Of course
          > the kite is going to spin wildly, but no handles flying and no
          > kite to swim after.
          >
          > fritz@... wrote:
          >
          > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
          Besided
          > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
          > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
          > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
          > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
          > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
          problem to
          > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
          > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
          you
          > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
          blown
          > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
          it's
          > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
          > > untangle it.
          >
          > --
          > Steve Bateman geokite at sprintmail dot com
          > The best health info is at http://www.healthcentral.com
        • Ronald Kittag
          ... I have. But to both brake-lines. The connection looks like a Y. It totally depowers the kite, without making it spin like crazy.But there s a potential to
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 3, 1999
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            > Has anyone tied a single line from one of the brake lines (quad line
            > kite) to a wrist leash?

            I have. But to both brake-lines. The connection looks like a Y. It totally
            depowers the kite, without making it spin like crazy.But there's a potential
            to get tangled with your feet or board. You could reduce the risk by using
            rubberbands to hold it near the line where you have the leash on. But then
            you can't ride nohanded.
            By the way, I don't use it anymore.
            Ronald
          • Peter A. Traykovski
            ... I use lines from a wrist leash to both brake lines. It is fastened at the end of the leaders about 8 away from the handles. This way if the handles do
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 3, 1999
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              > Has anyone tied a single line from one of the brake lines (quad line
              > kite) to a wrist leash? It would have to be a significant distance
              > away from the handles so that if the handles are dropped, one brake
              > line is fully applied (no top line tension at all). And this is
              > going to depend on the chrord (width) of the kite. Of course
              > the kite is going to spin wildly, but no handles flying and no
              > kite to swim after.

              I use lines from a wrist leash to both brake lines. It is fastened at the
              end of the leaders about 8" away from the handles. This way if the handles do
              get ripped out of my hands in a wipe out both brakes will be applied evenly,
              the kite fill simply fall down and not spin wildly. It works pretty well. The
              only issue is that it is one more line to tangle, but the benefits seem worth
              it especially if a I am a bit overpowered. Make sure to have enough slack in
              these lines to not tension the wrong brake line when turning the kite. I
              also use a quick release between the wrist leash and the lines in case a
              motor boat or something gets my lines and I have to release from it.

              -Peter
            • Cory Roeseler
              ... I agree 100% Cory
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 3, 1999
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                >If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey release
                >system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
                >handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to cause
                >serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.


                I agree 100%

                Cory
              • Felix Pantlen
                Hi, I am looking for spots in NL to go kiting and kitesurifing. Any good tips? Regards, Felix
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 3, 1999
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                  Hi,

                  I am looking for spots in NL to go kiting and kitesurifing.

                  Any good tips?

                  Regards,
                  Felix
                • fritz@kepnet.com
                  ... go of ... And I ... out of ... and ... Yes I did misunderstand unhooking a harness line and letting go of your handles are two entirely different things.
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 3, 1999
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                    > Fritz,
                    >
                    > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER let
                    go of
                    > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on water.
                    And I
                    > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get ripped
                    out of
                    > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to yourself
                    and
                    > everyone around you, pure and simple.
                    Yes I did misunderstand unhooking a harness line and letting go of your
                    handles are two entirely different things.
                    >
                    > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the loop
                    > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
                    purpose
                    > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
                    easier to
                    > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it impossible to
                    > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
                    However, with

                    Do you have plastic tubbing on your harness line? I don't use a
                    reactor bar any more, I personally didn't like the loose control, but
                    remember similar problems and think using a harness line with plastic
                    tubing, similar to most windsurfing ones prevented it.

                    > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in the
                    split
                    > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The result
                    is NOT
                    > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's not
                    losing
                    > control in the first place.
                    Except in light winds I prefer to be harnessed in and have no loss of
                    control of the kite. In light winds I like to be able to feel the kite
                    more.

                    Torpedoing is not something I do frequently but I do occasionally find
                    myself sailing very powered up after a sudden wind change. I can sail
                    under control in these situations but occasional have a very nasty wipe
                    out at speed which results in torpedoing. Usually when I wipe out my
                    head stays above the water and I just body drag until my kite gets to
                    the edge of the wind window. Occasionally I find my self underwater
                    torpedoing.
                    >
                    > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
                    non-relaunchable
                    > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater by
                    a Quad
                    > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't soon
                    want to
                    > repeat. Happy winds,
                    >
                    I am flying the same kites and have had the same experience but didn't
                    think it was too bad, most recently I did it with an XL in wind gusting
                    over 30 mph. I usually use 75' lines which allow the kite to get to
                    the edge of the wind window faster than longer lines. Perhaps with
                    longer lines it is not so nice. I also have been power kiting for over
                    10 years and have had much worse experiences on land.

                    I know the game of control I also like to push my limits and don't
                    always fly in ideal wind conditions, so I occasionaly crash the kite.
                    Because I fly nonwater launchables I don't go out further than I want
                    to swim.

                    Latter-
                    Fritz


                    > Dave
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: <fritz@...>
                    > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
                    > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4746
                    > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had my
                    > > hands on
                    > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd rather
                    > > have the
                    > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should be
                    off.
                    > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall. It
                    has
                    > > never
                    > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
                    tension
                    > > when
                    > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while turning
                    (which
                    > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
                    which
                    > > is best,
                    > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
                    > > experience.
                    > > >
                    > > > Dave
                    > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned down.
                    > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On the
                    water
                    > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
                    does on
                    > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on water.
                    > >
                    > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
                    keep
                    > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing, being
                    body
                    > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
                    able to
                    > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If you
                    > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
                    larger
                    > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does. I
                    > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
                    handles
                    > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and you
                    can
                    > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged under
                    > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body drags
                    I've
                    > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
                    wave.
                    > >
                    > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
                    Besided
                    > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
                    > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
                    > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
                    > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
                    > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
                    problem to
                    > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
                    > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
                    you
                    > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
                    blown
                    > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
                    it's
                    > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
                    > > untangle it.
                    > >
                    > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
                    release
                    > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
                    > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to
                    cause
                    > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
                    > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                    > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                    > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
                    > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
                    water. I
                    > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
                    Quad
                    > > when
                    > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
                    need
                    > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
                    could get
                    > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me! How
                    do
                    > > you
                    > > > > avoid this?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Jeff
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                    > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
                    732
                    > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used a
                    > > Reactor
                    > > > > bar for
                    > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down" i.e.,
                    > > > > pointing up.
                    > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank the
                    loop
                    > > up
                    > > > > off the
                    > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
                    the bar
                    > > > > the way
                    > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with DeKine
                    > > Thermoform
                    > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times in
                    gusts
                    > > > > and got
                    > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for longer
                    a
                    > > few
                    > > > > seconds.
                    > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
                    free
                    > > than
                    > > > > when
                    > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
                    haven't
                    > > had
                    > > > > problems
                    > > > > > since.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a lot
                    on how
                    > > > > much
                    > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as tight
                    as I
                    > > > > can and
                    > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
                    > > available
                    > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Dave
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                    > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                    > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
                    > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do put one
                    > > finger
                    > > > > on
                    > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I dont
                    > > harness
                    > > > > in.
                    > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but I
                    guess
                    > > I
                    > > > > need
                    > > > > > > to get used to it!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
                    > > > > > > Jeff
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                    > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
                    rt=4
                    > > 710
                    > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                    > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds like
                    you
                    > > > > need a
                    > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
                    control.
                    > > > > You
                    > > > > > > can
                    > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
                    better
                    > > > > choice
                    > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is more
                    > > > > anatomically
                    > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
                    line?
                    > > If
                    > > > > you do
                    > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
                    might
                    > > also
                    > > > > need
                    > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line. If I
                    use
                    > > to
                    > > > > long
                    > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other handle
                    when
                    > > > > you do
                    > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked in
                    do the
                    > > > > rail
                    > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
                    > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles give
                    > > much
                    > > > > more
                    > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
                    C-Quads
                    > > > > myself.
                    > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?s
                    tart
                    > > =4701
                    > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line handles
                    > > while
                    > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed in)
                    my
                    > > > > forearms
                    > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip giving
                    out.
                    > > I
                    > > > > ended
                    > > > > > > up
                    > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over handles.
                    For
                    > > > > one, you
                    > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course) with one
                    > > arm, do
                    > > > > > > rail
                    > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
                    360's
                    > > would
                    > > > > > > seem
                    > > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control bar,
                    > > and it
                    > > > > just
                    > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                    > > > > > > > > Jeff
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                  • Todd Snyder
                    hey Fritz !!!!!!!!! You hear anything about quadrifoil coming out with a semi water launchable kite?
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 3, 1999
                    • 0 Attachment
                      hey Fritz !!!!!!!!!

                      You hear anything about quadrifoil coming out with a semi water launchable
                      kite?

                      fritz@... wrote:

                      > > Fritz,
                      > >
                      > > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER let
                      > go of
                      > > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on water.
                      > And I
                      > > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get ripped
                      > out of
                      > > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to yourself
                      > and
                      > > everyone around you, pure and simple.
                      > Yes I did misunderstand unhooking a harness line and letting go of your
                      > handles are two entirely different things.
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the loop
                      > > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
                      > purpose
                      > > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
                      > easier to
                      > > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it impossible to
                      > > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
                      > However, with
                      >
                      > Do you have plastic tubbing on your harness line? I don't use a
                      > reactor bar any more, I personally didn't like the loose control, but
                      > remember similar problems and think using a harness line with plastic
                      > tubing, similar to most windsurfing ones prevented it.
                      >
                      > > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in the
                      > split
                      > > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The result
                      > is NOT
                      > > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's not
                      > losing
                      > > control in the first place.
                      > Except in light winds I prefer to be harnessed in and have no loss of
                      > control of the kite. In light winds I like to be able to feel the kite
                      > more.
                      >
                      > Torpedoing is not something I do frequently but I do occasionally find
                      > myself sailing very powered up after a sudden wind change. I can sail
                      > under control in these situations but occasional have a very nasty wipe
                      > out at speed which results in torpedoing. Usually when I wipe out my
                      > head stays above the water and I just body drag until my kite gets to
                      > the edge of the wind window. Occasionally I find my self underwater
                      > torpedoing.
                      > >
                      > > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
                      > non-relaunchable
                      > > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater by
                      > a Quad
                      > > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't soon
                      > want to
                      > > repeat. Happy winds,
                      > >
                      > I am flying the same kites and have had the same experience but didn't
                      > think it was too bad, most recently I did it with an XL in wind gusting
                      > over 30 mph. I usually use 75' lines which allow the kite to get to
                      > the edge of the wind window faster than longer lines. Perhaps with
                      > longer lines it is not so nice. I also have been power kiting for over
                      > 10 years and have had much worse experiences on land.
                      >
                      > I know the game of control I also like to push my limits and don't
                      > always fly in ideal wind conditions, so I occasionaly crash the kite.
                      > Because I fly nonwater launchables I don't go out further than I want
                      > to swim.
                      >
                      > Latter-
                      > Fritz
                      >
                      > > Dave
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: <fritz@...>
                      > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
                      > > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4746
                      > > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had my
                      > > > hands on
                      > > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd rather
                      > > > have the
                      > > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should be
                      > off.
                      > > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall. It
                      > has
                      > > > never
                      > > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
                      > tension
                      > > > when
                      > > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while turning
                      > (which
                      > > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
                      > which
                      > > > is best,
                      > > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
                      > > > experience.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Dave
                      > > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned down.
                      > > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On the
                      > water
                      > > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
                      > does on
                      > > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on water.
                      > > >
                      > > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
                      > keep
                      > > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing, being
                      > body
                      > > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
                      > able to
                      > > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If you
                      > > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
                      > larger
                      > > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does. I
                      > > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
                      > handles
                      > > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and you
                      > can
                      > > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged under
                      > > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body drags
                      > I've
                      > > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
                      > wave.
                      > > >
                      > > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
                      > Besided
                      > > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
                      > > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
                      > > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
                      > > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
                      > > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
                      > problem to
                      > > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
                      > > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
                      > you
                      > > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
                      > blown
                      > > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
                      > it's
                      > > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
                      > > > untangle it.
                      > > >
                      > > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
                      > release
                      > > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
                      > > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to
                      > cause
                      > > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
                      > > >
                      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                      > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
                      > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
                      > water. I
                      > > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
                      > Quad
                      > > > when
                      > > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
                      > need
                      > > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
                      > could get
                      > > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me! How
                      > do
                      > > > you
                      > > > > > avoid this?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Jeff
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                      > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
                      > 732
                      > > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used a
                      > > > Reactor
                      > > > > > bar for
                      > > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down" i.e.,
                      > > > > > pointing up.
                      > > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank the
                      > loop
                      > > > up
                      > > > > > off the
                      > > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
                      > the bar
                      > > > > > the way
                      > > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with DeKine
                      > > > Thermoform
                      > > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times in
                      > gusts
                      > > > > > and got
                      > > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for longer
                      > a
                      > > > few
                      > > > > > seconds.
                      > > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
                      > free
                      > > > than
                      > > > > > when
                      > > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
                      > haven't
                      > > > had
                      > > > > > problems
                      > > > > > > since.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a lot
                      > on how
                      > > > > > much
                      > > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as tight
                      > as I
                      > > > > > can and
                      > > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
                      > > > available
                      > > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Dave
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                      > > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                      > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
                      > > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do put one
                      > > > finger
                      > > > > > on
                      > > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I dont
                      > > > harness
                      > > > > > in.
                      > > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but I
                      > guess
                      > > > I
                      > > > > > need
                      > > > > > > > to get used to it!
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
                      > > > > > > > Jeff
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                      > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
                      > rt=4
                      > > > 710
                      > > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds like
                      > you
                      > > > > > need a
                      > > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
                      > control.
                      > > > > > You
                      > > > > > > > can
                      > > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
                      > better
                      > > > > > choice
                      > > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is more
                      > > > > > anatomically
                      > > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
                      > line?
                      > > > If
                      > > > > > you do
                      > > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
                      > might
                      > > > also
                      > > > > > need
                      > > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line. If I
                      > use
                      > > > to
                      > > > > > long
                      > > > > > > > of
                      > > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other handle
                      > when
                      > > > > > you do
                      > > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked in
                      > do the
                      > > > > > rail
                      > > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
                      > > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles give
                      > > > much
                      > > > > > more
                      > > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
                      > C-Quads
                      > > > > > myself.
                      > > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?s
                      > tart
                      > > > =4701
                      > > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line handles
                      > > > while
                      > > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed in)
                      > my
                      > > > > > forearms
                      > > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip giving
                      > out.
                      > > > I
                      > > > > > ended
                      > > > > > > > up
                      > > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over handles.
                      > For
                      > > > > > one, you
                      > > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course) with one
                      > > > arm, do
                      > > > > > > > rail
                      > > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
                      > 360's
                      > > > would
                      > > > > > > > seem
                      > > > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control bar,
                      > > > and it
                      > > > > > just
                      > > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                      > > > > > > > > > Jeff
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                      > Start with up to 150 Points for joining!
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                      >
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                    • speleopower@yahoo.com
                      speleopowe-@yahoo.com wrote: Yeah, is Quadrifoil releasing a water startable kite soon? I was working at a kite store this spring and the Quadrifoil reps came
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 3, 1999
                      • 0 Attachment
                        speleopowe-@... wrote:
                        Yeah, is Quadrifoil releasing a water startable kite soon? I was
                        working at a kite store this spring and the Quadrifoil reps came
                        through talking up their water startable kites. We were going to get a
                        kitesurf school going when their kites came out. They said sometime
                        around the Wildwood Kite festival. Anyway the only thing that I got
                        after Wildwood was Peter Lynn C-Quads distributed by Quadrifoil. When
                        that happened I left the store because I really did not like the
                        C-Quads and I did not want to teach using those.
                        P.S. had 6 miles of downwind fun in 3-6 foot surf using my XXXL today.
                        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4773
                        > hey Fritz !!!!!!!!!
                        >
                        > You hear anything about quadrifoil coming out with a semi water
                        launchable
                        > kite?
                        >
                        > fritz@... wrote:
                        >
                        > > > Fritz,
                        > > >
                        > > > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER
                        let
                        > > go of
                        > > > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on
                        water.
                        > > And I
                        > > > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get
                        ripped
                        > > out of
                        > > > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to
                        yourself
                        > > and
                        > > > everyone around you, pure and simple.
                        > > Yes I did misunderstand unhooking a harness line and letting go of
                        your
                        > > handles are two entirely different things.
                        > > >
                        > > > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the
                        loop
                        > > > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
                        > > purpose
                        > > > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
                        > > easier to
                        > > > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it
                        impossible to
                        > > > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
                        > > However, with
                        > >
                        > > Do you have plastic tubbing on your harness line? I don't use a
                        > > reactor bar any more, I personally didn't like the loose control,
                        but
                        > > remember similar problems and think using a harness line with
                        plastic
                        > > tubing, similar to most windsurfing ones prevented it.
                        > >
                        > > > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in
                        the
                        > > split
                        > > > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The
                        result
                        > > is NOT
                        > > > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's
                        not
                        > > losing
                        > > > control in the first place.
                        > > Except in light winds I prefer to be harnessed in and have no loss
                        of
                        > > control of the kite. In light winds I like to be able to feel the
                        kite
                        > > more.
                        > >
                        > > Torpedoing is not something I do frequently but I do occasionally
                        find
                        > > myself sailing very powered up after a sudden wind change. I can
                        sail
                        > > under control in these situations but occasional have a very nasty
                        wipe
                        > > out at speed which results in torpedoing. Usually when I wipe out
                        my
                        > > head stays above the water and I just body drag until my kite gets
                        to
                        > > the edge of the wind window. Occasionally I find my self underwater
                        > > torpedoing.
                        > > >
                        > > > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
                        > > non-relaunchable
                        > > > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater
                        by
                        > > a Quad
                        > > > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't
                        soon
                        > > want to
                        > > > repeat. Happy winds,
                        > > >
                        > > I am flying the same kites and have had the same experience but
                        didn't
                        > > think it was too bad, most recently I did it with an XL in wind
                        gusting
                        > > over 30 mph. I usually use 75' lines which allow the kite to get to
                        > > the edge of the wind window faster than longer lines. Perhaps with
                        > > longer lines it is not so nice. I also have been power kiting for
                        over
                        > > 10 years and have had much worse experiences on land.
                        > >
                        > > I know the game of control I also like to push my limits and don't
                        > > always fly in ideal wind conditions, so I occasionaly crash the
                        kite.
                        > > Because I fly nonwater launchables I don't go out further than I
                        want
                        > > to swim.
                        > >
                        > > Latter-
                        > > Fritz
                        > >
                        > > > Dave
                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > From: <fritz@...>
                        > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                        > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
                        > > > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
                        746
                        > > > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had
                        my
                        > > > > hands on
                        > > > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd
                        rather
                        > > > > have the
                        > > > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should
                        be
                        > > off.
                        > > > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall.
                        It
                        > > has
                        > > > > never
                        > > > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
                        > > tension
                        > > > > when
                        > > > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while
                        turning
                        > > (which
                        > > > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
                        > > which
                        > > > > is best,
                        > > > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
                        > > > > experience.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Dave
                        > > > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned
                        down.
                        > > > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On
                        the
                        > > water
                        > > > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
                        > > does on
                        > > > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on
                        water.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
                        > > keep
                        > > > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing,
                        being
                        > > body
                        > > > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
                        > > able to
                        > > > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If
                        you
                        > > > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
                        > > larger
                        > > > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does.
                        I
                        > > > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
                        > > handles
                        > > > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and
                        you
                        > > can
                        > > > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged
                        under
                        > > > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body
                        drags
                        > > I've
                        > > > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
                        > > wave.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
                        > > Besided
                        > > > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is
                        also
                        > > > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick
                        release
                        > > > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance
                        1-2
                        > > > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
                        > > > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
                        > > problem to
                        > > > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On
                        the
                        > > > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is
                        windy
                        > > you
                        > > > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it
                        gets
                        > > blown
                        > > > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
                        > > it's
                        > > > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able
                        to
                        > > > > untangle it.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
                        > > release
                        > > > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending
                        your
                        > > > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential
                        to
                        > > cause
                        > > > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                        > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                        > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
                        > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
                        > > water. I
                        > > > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
                        > > Quad
                        > > > > when
                        > > > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
                        > > need
                        > > > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
                        > > could get
                        > > > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me!
                        How
                        > > do
                        > > > > you
                        > > > > > > avoid this?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Jeff
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                        > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
                        rt=4
                        > > 732
                        > > > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used
                        a
                        > > > > Reactor
                        > > > > > > bar for
                        > > > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down"
                        i.e.,
                        > > > > > > pointing up.
                        > > > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank
                        the
                        > > loop
                        > > > > up
                        > > > > > > off the
                        > > > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
                        > > the bar
                        > > > > > > the way
                        > > > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with
                        DeKine
                        > > > > Thermoform
                        > > > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times
                        in
                        > > gusts
                        > > > > > > and got
                        > > > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for
                        longer
                        > > a
                        > > > > few
                        > > > > > > seconds.
                        > > > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
                        > > free
                        > > > > than
                        > > > > > > when
                        > > > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
                        > > haven't
                        > > > > had
                        > > > > > > problems
                        > > > > > > > since.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a
                        lot
                        > > on how
                        > > > > > > much
                        > > > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as
                        tight
                        > > as I
                        > > > > > > can and
                        > > > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
                        > > > > available
                        > > > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Dave
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                        > > > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                        > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
                        > > > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do
                        put one
                        > > > > finger
                        > > > > > > on
                        > > > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I
                        dont
                        > > > > harness
                        > > > > > > in.
                        > > > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but
                        I
                        > > guess
                        > > > > I
                        > > > > > > need
                        > > > > > > > > to get used to it!
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
                        > > > > > > > > Jeff
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/
                        ?sta
                        > > rt=4
                        > > > > 710
                        > > > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds
                        like
                        > > you
                        > > > > > > need a
                        > > > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
                        > > control.
                        > > > > > > You
                        > > > > > > > > can
                        > > > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
                        > > better
                        > > > > > > choice
                        > > > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is
                        more
                        > > > > > > anatomically
                        > > > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
                        > > line?
                        > > > > If
                        > > > > > > you do
                        > > > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
                        > > might
                        > > > > also
                        > > > > > > need
                        > > > > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line.
                        If I
                        > > use
                        > > > > to
                        > > > > > > long
                        > > > > > > > > of
                        > > > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other
                        handle
                        > > when
                        > > > > > > you do
                        > > > > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked
                        in
                        > > do the
                        > > > > > > rail
                        > > > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
                        > > > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles
                        give
                        > > > > much
                        > > > > > > more
                        > > > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
                        > > C-Quads
                        > > > > > > myself.
                        > > > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesur
                        f/?s
                        > > tart
                        > > > > =4701
                        > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line
                        handles
                        > > > > while
                        > > > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed
                        in)
                        > > my
                        > > > > > > forearms
                        > > > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip
                        giving
                        > > out.
                        > > > > I
                        > > > > > > ended
                        > > > > > > > > up
                        > > > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over
                        handles.
                        > > For
                        > > > > > > one, you
                        > > > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course)
                        with one
                        > > > > arm, do
                        > > > > > > > > rail
                        > > > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
                        > > 360's
                        > > > > would
                        > > > > > > > > seem
                        > > > > > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control
                        bar,
                        > > > > and it
                        > > > > > > just
                        > > > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > > > > > > > > Jeff
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > >
                      • David Raue
                        Seems like there has been lots of good discussion on the topic! Different strokes for different folks. When I m at the point of venturing in the surf I ll
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 4, 1999
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Seems like there has been lots of good discussion on the topic! Different
                          strokes for different folks. When I'm at the point of venturing in the surf
                          I'll probably flip it back around. By the way, speleopowe-, were you
                          kitesurfing in the 8+ ft surf with the XXXL? If you were, you're a batter
                          man than I. But I have bodydragged/surfed in the same conditions, right
                          through similar waves. Unhooked of course. And I agree, anybody flying
                          with handles ought to develop a death-grip (rock-climbing will do the trick,
                          I've found, and there's nothing else that comes close for ape-like forearm
                          and finger strength).

                          Here's a final point of contraversy - if you're dragged by just hanging onto
                          the handles, you're not putting any stress on your back, it's basically the
                          same geometry as hanging from a branch (with weights on). Dragging hooked
                          in puts all the force at your midsection, or where ever the fulcrum from the
                          harness across your body happens to be. Fox Hatteras recommends the deKine
                          Thermoform harness for this reason, it's placed pretty high up compared to a
                          seat harness. At my advanced age of 46 I'm not willing to subject my back
                          the the stuff I used to.

                          Dave
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <speleopower@...>
                          To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 10:17 PM
                          Subject: [ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles


                          > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                          > Just wanted to add. I've tried the reactor bar upside down myself and
                          > have found that the loop pops off to easily especially in the surf. I
                          > do have a XXXL and have flown it in 12 mph wind with 8+ foot surf. I'd
                          > rather not lose my kite then get tangled in the line or tangle another
                          > surfer in my line. I've been dragged by my XXXL both hooked in and
                          > unhooked. It was much better hooked in. Getting pulled through the
                          > water is tough enough but getting your arms stretched out is less
                          > appealing than holding my breath for a couple of seconds. Sometimes I
                          > do a little soul surfing with my both hands behind my head cruising on
                          > a wave and would rather not have the embarassement and hassle of my
                          > handles popping off while some cuties are watching on the beach. I
                          > thought it would be better witht he bar upside down. It worked until I
                          > got comfortable kitesurfing and figured out what works for me in the
                          > conditions I usually flysurf in. keep at it and dont give up. Use
                          > what ever method works for you! Above all have fun and look good while
                          > doing it! ;-)
                          > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4757
                          > > Fritz,
                          > >
                          > > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER let
                          > go of
                          > > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on water.
                          > And I
                          > > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get ripped
                          > out of
                          > > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to yourself
                          > and
                          > > everyone around you, pure and simple.
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the loop
                          > > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
                          > purpose
                          > > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
                          > easier to
                          > > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it impossible to
                          > > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
                          > However, with
                          > > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in the
                          > split
                          > > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The result
                          > is NOT
                          > > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's not
                          > losing
                          > > control in the first place.
                          > >
                          > > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
                          > non-relaunchable
                          > > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater by
                          > a Quad
                          > > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't soon
                          > want to
                          > > repeat. Happy winds,
                          > >
                          > > Dave
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: <fritz@...>
                          > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
                          > > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4746
                          > > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had my
                          > > > hands on
                          > > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd rather
                          > > > have the
                          > > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should be
                          > off.
                          > > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall. It
                          > has
                          > > > never
                          > > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
                          > tension
                          > > > when
                          > > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while turning
                          > (which
                          > > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
                          > which
                          > > > is best,
                          > > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
                          > > > experience.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Dave
                          > > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned down.
                          > > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On the
                          > water
                          > > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
                          > does on
                          > > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on water.
                          > > >
                          > > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
                          > keep
                          > > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing, being
                          > body
                          > > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
                          > able to
                          > > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If you
                          > > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
                          > larger
                          > > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does. I
                          > > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
                          > handles
                          > > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and you
                          > can
                          > > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged under
                          > > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body drags
                          > I've
                          > > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
                          > wave.
                          > > >
                          > > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
                          > Besided
                          > > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
                          > > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
                          > > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
                          > > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
                          > > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
                          > problem to
                          > > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
                          > > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
                          > you
                          > > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
                          > blown
                          > > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
                          > it's
                          > > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
                          > > > untangle it.
                          > > >
                          > > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
                          > release
                          > > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
                          > > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to
                          > cause
                          > > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
                          > > >
                          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                          > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
                          > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
                          > water. I
                          > > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
                          > Quad
                          > > > when
                          > > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
                          > need
                          > > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
                          > could get
                          > > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me! How
                          > do
                          > > > you
                          > > > > > avoid this?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Jeff
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                          > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
                          > 732
                          > > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used a
                          > > > Reactor
                          > > > > > bar for
                          > > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down" i.e.,
                          > > > > > pointing up.
                          > > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank the
                          > loop
                          > > > up
                          > > > > > off the
                          > > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
                          > the bar
                          > > > > > the way
                          > > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with DeKine
                          > > > Thermoform
                          > > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times in
                          > gusts
                          > > > > > and got
                          > > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for longer
                          > a
                          > > > few
                          > > > > > seconds.
                          > > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
                          > free
                          > > > than
                          > > > > > when
                          > > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
                          > haven't
                          > > > had
                          > > > > > problems
                          > > > > > > since.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a lot
                          > on how
                          > > > > > much
                          > > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as tight
                          > as I
                          > > > > > can and
                          > > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
                          > > > available
                          > > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Dave
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                          > > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                          > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
                          > > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do put one
                          > > > finger
                          > > > > > on
                          > > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I dont
                          > > > harness
                          > > > > > in.
                          > > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but I
                          > guess
                          > > > I
                          > > > > > need
                          > > > > > > > to get used to it!
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
                          > > > > > > > Jeff
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                          > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
                          > rt=4
                          > > > 710
                          > > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                          > > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds like
                          > you
                          > > > > > need a
                          > > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
                          > control.
                          > > > > > You
                          > > > > > > > can
                          > > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
                          > better
                          > > > > > choice
                          > > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is more
                          > > > > > anatomically
                          > > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
                          > line?
                          > > > If
                          > > > > > you do
                          > > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
                          > might
                          > > > also
                          > > > > > need
                          > > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line. If I
                          > use
                          > > > to
                          > > > > > long
                          > > > > > > > of
                          > > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other handle
                          > when
                          > > > > > you do
                          > > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked in
                          > do the
                          > > > > > rail
                          > > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
                          > > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles give
                          > > > much
                          > > > > > more
                          > > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
                          > C-Quads
                          > > > > > myself.
                          > > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?s
                          > tart
                          > > > =4701
                          > > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line handles
                          > > > while
                          > > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed in)
                          > my
                          > > > > > forearms
                          > > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip giving
                          > out.
                          > > > I
                          > > > > > ended
                          > > > > > > > up
                          > > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over handles.
                          > For
                          > > > > > one, you
                          > > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course) with one
                          > > > arm, do
                          > > > > > > > rail
                          > > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
                          > 360's
                          > > > would
                          > > > > > > > seem
                          > > > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control bar,
                          > > > and it
                          > > > > > just
                          > > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                          > > > > > > > > > Jeff
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          >
                          >
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                        • David Raue
                          Hi Fritz, Thanks for the comments, sounds like I pretty much share your views. I don t torpedo much either, and usually my head is out of the water. But I
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 4, 1999
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Fritz,
                            Thanks for the comments, sounds like I pretty much share your views. I
                            don't torpedo much either, and usually my head is out of the water. But I
                            DID have a very scary experience with an XXXL (150 foot lines!!) in a strong
                            gust (don't know how strong), where I was completely submerged and the water
                            pressure was so high I could scarcely keep my mouth sealed. I'm talking
                            about struggling to keep a firehose from being jammed down my throat. You
                            can always imagine something a little worse occuring, so I've adopted a more
                            conservative view.

                            dave
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <fritz@...>
                            To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 1:09 PM
                            Subject: [ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles


                            >
                            > > Fritz,
                            > >
                            > > Seems like you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I NEVER let
                            > go of
                            > > the handles and allow the kite to just sail off, on land OR on water.
                            > And I
                            > > NEVER fly kites so big for the conditions that the handles get ripped
                            > out of
                            > > my grip. If you can't control the kite, you're a menace to yourself
                            > and
                            > > everyone around you, pure and simple.
                            > Yes I did misunderstand unhooking a harness line and letting go of your
                            > handles are two entirely different things.
                            > >
                            > > Anyway, the point is avoiding being involuntarily attached to the loop
                            > > without the ability to get free. I've been bodydragged a lot, on
                            > purpose
                            > > and by accident, and it seems like when the pulley is down it's
                            > easier to
                            > > get the loop snagged around the spreader bar, making it impossible to
                            > > control the kite (which obviously does crash at some point).
                            > However, with
                            >
                            > Do you have plastic tubbing on your harness line? I don't use a
                            > reactor bar any more, I personally didn't like the loose control, but
                            > remember similar problems and think using a harness line with plastic
                            > tubing, similar to most windsurfing ones prevented it.
                            >
                            > > the pulley up, most of the time I'm able to pull the loop off in the
                            > split
                            > > second BEFORE the fall and maintain control ot the kite. The result
                            > is NOT
                            > > getting torpedoed or hoping to regain control at the edge, it's not
                            > losing
                            > > control in the first place.
                            > Except in light winds I prefer to be harnessed in and have no loss of
                            > control of the kite. In light winds I like to be able to feel the kite
                            > more.
                            >
                            > Torpedoing is not something I do frequently but I do occasionally find
                            > myself sailing very powered up after a sudden wind change. I can sail
                            > under control in these situations but occasional have a very nasty wipe
                            > out at speed which results in torpedoing. Usually when I wipe out my
                            > head stays above the water and I just body drag until my kite gets to
                            > the edge of the wind window. Occasionally I find my self underwater
                            > torpedoing.
                            > >
                            > > Incidently, what kites are you flying? Since I'm flying
                            > non-relaunchable
                            > > foils, control is the name of the game. Being dragged underwater by
                            > a Quad
                            > > XXXL in 12 mph wind is not a benign experience, and one I don't soon
                            > want to
                            > > repeat. Happy winds,
                            > >
                            > I am flying the same kites and have had the same experience but didn't
                            > think it was too bad, most recently I did it with an XL in wind gusting
                            > over 30 mph. I usually use 75' lines which allow the kite to get to
                            > the edge of the wind window faster than longer lines. Perhaps with
                            > longer lines it is not so nice. I also have been power kiting for over
                            > 10 years and have had much worse experiences on land.
                            >
                            > I know the game of control I also like to push my limits and don't
                            > always fly in ideal wind conditions, so I occasionaly crash the kite.
                            > Because I fly nonwater launchables I don't go out further than I want
                            > to swim.
                            >
                            > Latter-
                            > Fritz
                            >
                            >
                            > > Dave
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: <fritz@...>
                            > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:41 PM
                            > > Subject: [ksurf] Releasing 4- line handles
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4746
                            > > > > On a couple occassions it has popped out, but I've always had my
                            > > > hands on
                            > > > > the handles, so it hasn't gotten away from me. I guess I'd rather
                            > > > have the
                            > > > > kite pop off when it should be on than stay on when it should be
                            > off.
                            > > > > What's the worst that can happen if it pops off? You fall. It
                            > has
                            > > > never
                            > > > > been a problem buggying cause you're either hooked in under
                            > tension
                            > > > when
                            > > > > you're just running OR you're holding the handles while turning
                            > (which
                            > > > > creates less pull anyway). As a kitesurf newbie I'm not sure
                            > which
                            > > > is best,
                            > > > > but I'll err on the side of "easy release" until I get more
                            > > > experience.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Dave
                            > > > I disagree, I think it is much safer to have the roller turned down.
                            > > > Releasing the handles is dangerous and should be avoided. On the
                            > water
                            > > > an over powering kite does not present the same dangerous as it
                            > does on
                            > > > land. Being lifted and dropped on land is much worse than on water.
                            > > >
                            > > > Provided there is nothing too close down wind (you should always
                            > keep
                            > > > an open space downwind of you) I see no harm in torpedoing, being
                            > body
                            > > > dragged under water. You will stop when the kite crashes or be
                            > able to
                            > > > regain control when it gets to the edge of the wind window. If you
                            > > > release your handles they will fly down wind and create a much
                            > larger
                            > > > threat to bystanders than your uncontrolled body dragging does. I
                            > > > prefer to put the saftey of others ahead of myself. Released
                            > handles
                            > > > are a danger that must be avoided. Besides water is soft and you
                            > can
                            > > > hold your breath for a longer than you think. Being dragged under
                            > > > water can be a little scarey but the worst under water body drags
                            > I've
                            > > > had kitesurfing are no worse than getting worked by an overhead
                            > wave.
                            > > >
                            > > > Things are alot different on the water than they are on land.
                            > Besided
                            > > > being dangerous releasing your kite and handles on the water is also
                            > > > likely to be a big mess. From my experience (with PL quick release
                            > > > handles) a released kite usually travels a horizonatal distance 1-2
                            > > > times your line length before hitting the ground or water and it
                            > > > usually gets a little tangled. On land it is not much of a
                            > problem to
                            > > > walk or run after a released kite untangle it and relaunch. On the
                            > > > water first you will have to swim after your kite. If it is windy
                            > you
                            > > > may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your kite as it gets
                            > blown
                            > > > down wind on the water. When/if you get to your kite, even if
                            > it's
                            > > > water relaunchable there is a good chance you will not be able to
                            > > > untangle it.
                            > > >
                            > > > If you can't handle torpedoing through the water get a saftey
                            > release
                            > > > system that will depower or release your kite without sending your
                            > > > handles flying down wind. Releasing handles has the potential to
                            > cause
                            > > > serious injury to people down wind and should be avoided.
                            > > >
                            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                            > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                            > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:58 PM
                            > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > Ya, it is really tuff to unhook during an overpower in the
                            > water. I
                            > > > > > got dragged atleast 30 yards halfway submerged with an 8.5 C
                            > Quad
                            > > > when
                            > > > > > I wiped out. Its a good way to get in shape quickly, as you
                            > need
                            > > > > > gorilla strength to push against oncoming water.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > But with the hook roller turned up, it seems that the kite
                            > could get
                            > > > > > away with a quick pop...sounds even more dangerous to me! How
                            > do
                            > > > you
                            > > > > > avoid this?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Jeff
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                            > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=4
                            > 732
                            > > > > > > A comment on the reactor bar and handle loops: I've used a
                            > > > Reactor
                            > > > > > bar for
                            > > > > > > a long time buggying, but with the pulley "upside down" i.e.,
                            > > > > > pointing up.
                            > > > > > > That way if you get in trouble it isn't too hard to yank the
                            > loop
                            > > > up
                            > > > > > off the
                            > > > > > > pulley to get free. In early kitesurfing attempts I tried
                            > the bar
                            > > > > > the way
                            > > > > > > Windsurfers use it, namely pulley pointed down (with DeKine
                            > > > Thermoform
                            > > > > > > harness). Big mistake! I got overpowered a couple times in
                            > gusts
                            > > > > > and got
                            > > > > > > bodydragged half submerged. I was scared shitless for longer
                            > a
                            > > > few
                            > > > > > seconds.
                            > > > > > > If you're really overpowered the loop is far harder to get
                            > free
                            > > > than
                            > > > > > when
                            > > > > > > upside down. I turned the bar back the "wrong" way and
                            > haven't
                            > > > had
                            > > > > > problems
                            > > > > > > since.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > As for loop line length, the right length will depend a lot
                            > on how
                            > > > > > much
                            > > > > > > slack there is in the spreader bar. I try to get it as tight
                            > as I
                            > > > > > can and
                            > > > > > > use the biggest loop possible so there's more arm movement
                            > > > available
                            > > > > > > (especially key for very big kites).
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Dave
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > > > > From: <jquick1@...>
                            > > > > > > To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                            > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:05 PM
                            > > > > > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: 4 line handles vs 4 line bar
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Actually, I do have a Reactor Spreader Bar, and I do put one
                            > > > finger
                            > > > > > on
                            > > > > > > > top of the handles. This fatigue only happens when I dont
                            > > > harness
                            > > > > > in.
                            > > > > > > > When I do harness in I feel totally out of balance, but I
                            > guess
                            > > > I
                            > > > > > need
                            > > > > > > > to get used to it!
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Thanks for the tips,
                            > > > > > > > Jeff
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > jquick-@... wrote:
                            > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?sta
                            > rt=4
                            > > > 710
                            > > > > > > > > speleopowe-@... wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > I kitesurf for hours on end with handles. It sounds like
                            > you
                            > > > > > need a
                            > > > > > > > > Reator style spreader bar on your harness for ease of
                            > control.
                            > > > > > You
                            > > > > > > > can
                            > > > > > > > > steer with one hand no problem. Handles seem to be a
                            > better
                            > > > > > choice
                            > > > > > > > > than a bar because they are thinner and the pull is more
                            > > > > > anatomically
                            > > > > > > > > correct. Do you hold your index finger above the top
                            > line?
                            > > > If
                            > > > > > you do
                            > > > > > > > > this the pull will be straight through your arm. You
                            > might
                            > > > also
                            > > > > > need
                            > > > > > > > a
                            > > > > > > > > shorter harness line. I use about a 18 inch line. If I
                            > use
                            > > > to
                            > > > > > long
                            > > > > > > > of
                            > > > > > > > > a harness line you may have trouble reaching other handle
                            > when
                            > > > > > you do
                            > > > > > > > a
                            > > > > > > > > full out turn. You can jump hooked in or not hooked in
                            > do the
                            > > > > > rail
                            > > > > > > > > grabs and loops and all that other stuff with handles.
                            > > > > > > > > It takes lots of practice but well worth it. Handles give
                            > > > much
                            > > > > > more
                            > > > > > > > > control than a bar on your C-Quad. I used to have 2
                            > C-Quads
                            > > > > > myself.
                            > > > > > > > > good luck and keep practicing.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?s
                            > tart
                            > > > =4701
                            > > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any problems holding onto 4 line handles
                            > > > while
                            > > > > > > > > > kitesurfing? After about 30 seconds (not harnessed in)
                            > my
                            > > > > > forearms
                            > > > > > > > > > begin to give out, which then leads to my grip giving
                            > out.
                            > > > I
                            > > > > > ended
                            > > > > > > > up
                            > > > > > > > > > dunking my C Quad as a result.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > I think a bar would have many advantages over handles.
                            > For
                            > > > > > one, you
                            > > > > > > > > > would be able to steer (harnessed in of course) with one
                            > > > arm, do
                            > > > > > > > rail
                            > > > > > > > > > grabs, and sometimes powerturns with no arms! Also,
                            > 360's
                            > > > would
                            > > > > > > > seem
                            > > > > > > > > a
                            > > > > > > > > > lot easier. I've tried 2 line kites with a control bar,
                            > > > and it
                            > > > > > just
                            > > > > > > > > > seems alot easier.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                            > > > > > > > > > Jeff
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Frank Kubin
                            Hello Dave, Glad to know there are other advanced age kitesurfers out there. Turning 45 soon myself. I ve been doing this for about two years now with WIPIKA
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 7, 1999
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                              Hello Dave,

                              Glad to know there are other 'advanced age' kitesurfers out there. Turning
                              45 soon myself. I've been doing this for about two years now with WIPIKA and
                              Fone board. Just starting to try other kites, ATK650 & Cquad. I've been
                              using a dakine chest harness lately, even for getting started. The high hook
                              keeps the bar at a better position for me. So far I've just been going in a
                              sheltered bay but am looking to start out on the surf.

                              Frank, NYC



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: David Raue [mailto:theraves@...]
                              Sent: Saturday, September 04, 1999 4:24 PM
                              To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                              Subject: [ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles


                              Seems like there has been lots of good discussion on the topic! Different
                              strokes for different folks. When I'm at the point of venturing in the surf
                              I'll probably flip it back around. By the way, speleopowe-, were you
                              kitesurfing in the 8+ ft surf with the XXXL? If you were, you're a batter
                              man than I. But I have bodydragged/surfed in the same conditions, right
                              through similar waves. Unhooked of course. And I agree, anybody flying
                              with handles ought to develop a death-grip (rock-climbing will do the trick,
                              I've found, and there's nothing else that comes close for ape-like forearm
                              and finger strength).

                              Here's a final point of contraversy - if you're dragged by just hanging onto
                              the handles, you're not putting any stress on your back, it's basically the
                              same geometry as hanging from a branch (with weights on). Dragging hooked
                              in puts all the force at your midsection, or where ever the fulcrum from the
                              harness across your body happens to be. Fox Hatteras recommends the deKine
                              Thermoform harness for this reason, it's placed pretty high up compared to a
                              seat harness. At my advanced age of 46 I'm not willing to subject my back
                              the the stuff I used to.

                              Dave
                            • David Raue
                              Hi Frank, Drat, you discovered kitesurfing 2 years before me, giving you that much more fun! I really just started kitesurfing this summer after a long winter
                              Message 14 of 15 , Sep 7, 1999
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                                Hi Frank,
                                Drat, you discovered kitesurfing 2 years before me, giving you that much
                                more fun! I really just started kitesurfing this summer after a long winter
                                of wondering if I could really do it. The conclusion is YES, as I guess
                                you've found out too. Interesting that you've fixed on the high hook
                                position too. Finally, your signature suggests that you're in the City
                                (there's only one). Do you kitesurf in the metro area anywhere, e.g, Jersey
                                shore or LI? I'm up in northern Westchester and on the lookout for choice
                                sites without driving for hours. Tips appreciated, maybe we could hook up
                                sometime - I need all the tips I can get (and I've got many choice kites,
                                none of which is water relaunchable!)

                                Dave
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Frank Kubin <frank@...>
                                To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 10:51 AM
                                Subject: [ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles


                                > Hello Dave,
                                >
                                > Glad to know there are other 'advanced age' kitesurfers out there. Turning
                                > 45 soon myself. I've been doing this for about two years now with WIPIKA
                                and
                                > Fone board. Just starting to try other kites, ATK650 & Cquad. I've been
                                > using a dakine chest harness lately, even for getting started. The high
                                hook
                                > keeps the bar at a better position for me. So far I've just been going in
                                a
                                > sheltered bay but am looking to start out on the surf.
                                >
                                > Frank, NYC
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: David Raue [mailto:theraves@...]
                                > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 1999 4:24 PM
                                > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                                > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Releasing 4- line handles
                                >
                                >
                                > Seems like there has been lots of good discussion on the topic! Different
                                > strokes for different folks. When I'm at the point of venturing in the
                                surf
                                > I'll probably flip it back around. By the way, speleopowe-, were you
                                > kitesurfing in the 8+ ft surf with the XXXL? If you were, you're a batter
                                > man than I. But I have bodydragged/surfed in the same conditions, right
                                > through similar waves. Unhooked of course. And I agree, anybody flying
                                > with handles ought to develop a death-grip (rock-climbing will do the
                                trick,
                                > I've found, and there's nothing else that comes close for ape-like forearm
                                > and finger strength).
                                >
                                > Here's a final point of contraversy - if you're dragged by just hanging
                                onto
                                > the handles, you're not putting any stress on your back, it's basically
                                the
                                > same geometry as hanging from a branch (with weights on). Dragging hooked
                                > in puts all the force at your midsection, or where ever the fulcrum from
                                the
                                > harness across your body happens to be. Fox Hatteras recommends the
                                deKine
                                > Thermoform harness for this reason, it's placed pretty high up compared to
                                a
                                > seat harness. At my advanced age of 46 I'm not willing to subject my back
                                > the the stuff I used to.
                                >
                                > Dave
                                >
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