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Re: Ripped kites / Warranty

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  • terminalveloce
    My two cents, as I m still at work well past beer o clock... I ve experienced 3 major structural failures in kites. I was a little disappointed in the kites
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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      My two cents, as I'm still at work well past beer o'clock...

      I've experienced 3 major structural failures in kites. I was a
      little disappointed in the kites at the time, but in hindsight all
      were initiated by smaller failures - the most spectacular was tearing
      a foil in half while I was 15ft off the deck. Post faceplant
      analysis was that part of the secondary bridles had let go (I
      actually heard a pop before the tear) at a knot, and overstressed the
      seams and remaining bridle. Not what I'd call a manufacturing fault -
      the kite was old, so more like my fault for not rebridling my foils
      when they're looking shagged. I could've argued that they should've
      used 700lb bridles, sewn them instead of knotted them etc. but the
      end result would be an expensive pig, and I'd be laughed out of town
      (that happens often enough anyway...;-)

      The other side of this was when I loaned a nice new(ish) 10ft Flexi
      to a bloke who claimed to be competent and wanted to try one before
      buying. He went out and belted snot out of it for a couple of hours -
      12 o'clock to 6 o'clock nose first, everything you can think of, and
      the kite still looked OKish. Lots of nicks and cuts in the LE, split
      spar, and eventually a popped cell, but it stood up to a unbelievable
      thrashing ("but it just kept flying into the ground" was his
      excuse). He did end up buying a lot of kites though.

      I'm with Steve on this one - if the kite survives the first 10 hours
      in the air without showing signs of fabric distress (where seams have
      been sewn badly, or defects in the fabric) or zipped/fraying
      stitching it's probably OK. It's a grey area, but if you bought a
      car that had a defective valve in one of the front tyres, drove it
      for a week never checking your tyres, then went out and ran into a
      tree because you hadn't noticed the tyre was now flat who's fault is
      it (actually, litigation conscious Americans need not answer that ;-
      )).

      Please let there be wind tomorrow. This is soooooo dull...
      Pete



      --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
      > I am sympathetic in that it is awful to watch your kites ripping
      and not
      > being able to do a thing to stop it!!!
      > When you say your kites just ripped in the air, it tells me that
      there was
      > some existing damage that was poorly repaired or was undetected by
      you. This
      > type of damage is not covered by any kite manufacturers I know of.
      > Also when you state they ripped in crashes on the water, it also
      indicates
      > there may have been existing damage, and some peoples
      interpretation of "not
      > very hard" is amazing!
      > The good news is that they are simple repairs and will not affect
      the life
      > of your kite if properly repaired.
      > Kites are not designed to crash, they are designed to fly, like
      aircraft you
      > don't get a warranty that includes damage from crashing.
      > Manufacturers are always looking for ways to make kites more
      durable, but
      > there is a cutoff point, in that if the kite gets over a certain
      weight per
      > M it will be a flying pig.
      > How do you think you are getting the small cuts in the sail that
      are causing
      > your problems?
      >
      > Cya and
      > Goodwinds
      > Steve McCormack
      > http://www.kitepower.com.au
      > mailto:sydney@k...
      > Open 7 days
      > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
      > Phone +61293157894
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: olehlie [mailto:olelie@s...]
      > Sent: 01 February, 2002 1:01 PM
      > To: kitesurf@y...
      > Subject: [ksurf] Ripped kites / Warranty
      >
      >
      > I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more. Three Wipi
      > AB'sts and one ARX.
      > Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard, last
      3-
      > 4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of the
      kites
      > have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels before the
      > total rupture.
      > Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish seem to be
      > very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
      > experiences ?
      >
      >
      > Support your local kitesurf association !
      >
      >
      > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • olehlie
      Thanks for all the reply guys. To clarify the matter a little more: I am aware that existing tears may cause the kite to rip. The first total rupture may well
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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        Thanks for all the reply guys. To clarify the matter a little more:

        I am aware that existing tears may cause the kite to rip. The first
        total rupture may well have been caused by some existing tear that
        went unnoticed as I at the time was not paying particular attention
        to the kite before takeoff.
        After the first rip however, I was made aware of this and I now
        regularly look over the kite before takeoff to check for small nicks.
        Some of the kites did have small pinholes and tears but I always
        patch these up before flying again.
        Two of the damaged kites had 1 foot tears repaired previously
        (misjudging of line length and landing the kite in a tree/umbrella
        respectively) but these were in a different panel to the catastrophic
        rips.

        My theory is that the fabric is weakened by exposure to sun/salt and
        that at some stage the strain on one particualar part of the seam
        gets to high. Once the cloth starts ripping, nothing will stop it
        until the rip takes out the whole panel or hits some padding or other
        reinforcement.
        It may also be that undetected pinholes are the nucleus of the tear
        but I really have been paying attention to the state of the kites
        before takeoff with respect to my previous experiences.
        Funny thing is that the tears only seem to happen with my own kites.
        I've borrowed lots of other peoples kites and exposed them to my
        usual 'abuse' without having them rip.

        Aloha,

        Ole, Norway



        --- In kitesurf@y..., "olehlie" <olelie@s...> wrote:
        > I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more. Three Wipi
        > AB'sts and one ARX.
        > Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard, last
        3-
        > 4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of the
        kites
        > have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels before the
        > total rupture.
        > Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish seem to
        be
        > very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
        > experiences ?
      • gregwalshau
        ... snip ... on the PL ... people ... snip I don t really know what happened to the chicken loop. It all just disappeared. There was no remnant left on the
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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          --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:

          snip

          > I was really surprised you wore out that 9,000,000lb spectra rope
          on the PL
          > bar without noticing it was getting seriously frayed. We recommend
          people
          > dip that stuff in melted CANDLE wax before they use it.

          snip


          I don't really know what happened to the chicken loop. It all just
          disappeared. There was no remnant left on the front lines when I
          retrieved everything. Either the leader snapped right at the knot or
          the knot came undone. The kite had been kitesurfed twice and flown on
          the beach half a dozen times. There was no significant wear on
          anything.

          If I was inclined to be bullish I could have ranted about the crappy
          knots and line and I was just riding along and minding my own
          business and none of my other kites have done this and the whole
          bluddy tip came off and and what sort of crap products are you making
          and unfit for the intended purpose blah blah blah (as I have done
          before).

          In fact, it was in 30 knots and you have to be a little philosophical
          about things being damaged in those sorts of winds, and the cost of
          the repair includes adding flares and reinforcing the tips and
          shipping and stuff and PL started from a position of trying to help
          so there was no reason for anyone to get upset.

          Greg
        • Kitepower
          Aha! :-) I know what happened, the knot at the end of the trim lop rope slipped under load and then your front lines went missing and in the resulting crash,
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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            Aha! :-)
            I know what happened, the knot at the end of the trim lop rope slipped under
            load and then your front lines went missing and in the resulting crash, the
            remainder of the loop simply washed out from the bar and is floating around
            on Pt Phillip bay!! :-)
            This has happened to me with that spectra PL use on various things, so now I
            always tie 2 knots next to each other, in any pure, unsheathed spectra line.
            Peter Lynn LTD, NZ have always been extremely helpful if there is a warranty
            claim or any problem with their products. It sounds like they have looked
            after you very well.

            Cya and
            Goodwinds
            Steve McCormack
            http://www.kitepower.com.au
            mailto:sydney@...
            Open 7 days
            126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
            Phone +61293157894

            -----Original Message-----
            From: gregwalshau [mailto:Greg.Walsh@...]
            Sent: 02 February, 2002 9:13 AM
            To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ksurf] Re: Ripped kites / Warranty


            --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:

            snip

            > I was really surprised you wore out that 9,000,000lb spectra rope
            on the PL
            > bar without noticing it was getting seriously frayed. We recommend
            people
            > dip that stuff in melted CANDLE wax before they use it.

            snip


            I don't really know what happened to the chicken loop. It all just
            disappeared. There was no remnant left on the front lines when I
            retrieved everything. Either the leader snapped right at the knot or
            the knot came undone. The kite had been kitesurfed twice and flown on
            the beach half a dozen times. There was no significant wear on
            anything.

            If I was inclined to be bullish I could have ranted about the crappy
            knots and line and I was just riding along and minding my own
            business and none of my other kites have done this and the whole
            bluddy tip came off and and what sort of crap products are you making
            and unfit for the intended purpose blah blah blah (as I have done
            before).

            In fact, it was in 30 knots and you have to be a little philosophical
            about things being damaged in those sorts of winds, and the cost of
            the repair includes adding flares and reinforcing the tips and
            shipping and stuff and PL started from a position of trying to help
            so there was no reason for anyone to get upset.

            Greg


            Support your local kitesurf association !


            <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

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          • terminalveloce
            Ole, There is no doubt that exposure to UV, salt, sand etc. all causes fabric to deteriorate. Greg will tell you about UV and paragliders - from what little I
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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              Ole,
              There is no doubt that exposure to UV, salt, sand etc. all causes
              fabric to deteriorate. Greg will tell you about UV and paragliders -
              from what little I know you retire them after so many hours
              because the fabric gets suspect.

              There is also no doubt that some batches of fabric are faulty -
              they have a weakness running through them - and this can occur
              in the middle of a role. I have a suspicion that large inflatables
              are maybe more prone to fabric defects due to the relatively large
              panel sizes. At the end of the day though I reckon it's usually
              poor load distribution, caused by other problems, bad design,
              build quality or repair, that makes an otherwise healthy looking
              panel fail.

              When you get a repair done, check it out before going on the
              water. Get someone to fly your kite down at the edge of the
              window, walk around so you can see the kite from up close, and
              check out the area around the repair - it kite the shape, or weave
              of the fabric, is badly distorted (lumps & bumps, creases) it's not
              a great repair, or the kite was more badly damaged than you
              knew. Rarely do tears just result in holes - they stress other bits
              of the kite, which strectches the fabric. If you see anything sus,
              and aren't sure if it's bad, take a photo of it. Then if it fails later
              you've got the before and after picture. You can do the same with
              a new kite. Believe it or not, good feedback on failures can make
              a difference to manufacturers quality control. It's also useful

              Pete

              --- In kitesurf@y..., "olehlie" <olelie@s...> wrote:
              > Thanks for all the reply guys. To clarify the matter a little more:
              >
              > I am aware that existing tears may cause the kite to rip. The
              first
              > total rupture may well have been caused by some existing tear
              that
              > went unnoticed as I at the time was not paying particular
              attention
              > to the kite before takeoff.
              > After the first rip however, I was made aware of this and I now
              > regularly look over the kite before takeoff to check for small
              nicks.
              > Some of the kites did have small pinholes and tears but I
              always
              > patch these up before flying again.
              > Two of the damaged kites had 1 foot tears repaired previously
              > (misjudging of line length and landing the kite in a
              tree/umbrella
              > respectively) but these were in a different panel to the
              catastrophic
              > rips.
              >
              > My theory is that the fabric is weakened by exposure to sun/salt
              and
              > that at some stage the strain on one particualar part of the
              seam
              > gets to high. Once the cloth starts ripping, nothing will stop it
              > until the rip takes out the whole panel or hits some padding or
              other
              > reinforcement.
              > It may also be that undetected pinholes are the nucleus of the
              tear
              > but I really have been paying attention to the state of the kites
              > before takeoff with respect to my previous experiences.
              > Funny thing is that the tears only seem to happen with my own
              kites.
              > I've borrowed lots of other peoples kites and exposed them to
              my
              > usual 'abuse' without having them rip.
              >
              > Aloha,
              >
              > Ole, Norway
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In kitesurf@y..., "olehlie" <olelie@s...> wrote:
              > > I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more.
              Three Wipi
              > > AB'sts and one ARX.
              > > Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard,
              last
              > 3-
              > > 4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of
              the
              > kites
              > > have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels
              before the
              > > total rupture.
              > > Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish
              seem to
              > be
              > > very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
              > > experiences ?
            • Kitepower
              G day Pete Your advice re repairs is good, but I must disagree with terminalveloce wrote There is also no doubt that some batches of fabric are faulty - they
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                G'day Pete

                Your advice re repairs is good, but I must disagree with

                "terminalveloce wrote"

                There is also no doubt that some batches of fabric are faulty -
                they have a weakness running through them - and this can occur
                in the middle of a role. I have a suspicion that large inflatables
                are maybe more prone to fabric defects due to the relatively large
                panel sizes. At the end of the day though I reckon it's usually
                poor load distribution, caused by other problems, bad design,
                build quality or repair, that makes an otherwise healthy looking
                panel fail.

                This is just not true mate, cloth is inspected and tested at several stages
                during manufacture, defected bits are removed and maybe sold as seconds for
                various uses (stunt/sport kites, some foils!!)
                All the cloth used in the inflatos is virtually the same ripstop polyester,
                1st grade cloth.
                All inflatable sled kites load the centre panels quite highly, ANY SMALL
                NICK OR CUT can turn into a doorway sized tear, if not properly repaired.
                I recommend the glue method of repair for tears in these areas of a LEI
                kite, so that you are not placing a row of needle holes in this high stress
                area, which are leaving the area weakened and readily able to tear again.
                I think Ole realizes that these rips are attributable to pre-existing damage
                or bad repairs?
              • olehlie
                Whenever I get a small nick in the main panels I patch it up with spinnaker tape (self adhesive ripstop tape). I make sure that the edges of the nicks are
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                  Whenever I get a small 'nick' in the main panels I patch it up
                  with 'spinnaker tape' (self adhesive ripstop tape). I make sure that
                  the edges of the nicks are well alligned, put on a patch well bigger
                  than the nick and repeat the process on the reverse side making sure
                  not to overlap the edges (which are of course cut rounded).

                  I would think this should eliminate the weakness caused bt the
                  original nick ?

                  Problem is that it is really hard in hindsight to see where the tear
                  started. It for sure follows the stitching once it rips, but I guess
                  that is only natural as 'tear along the dotted line' will be the path
                  of least resistance and not necesarily mean that this is where the
                  tear started.

                  I have noticed that many kites develop tiny pinholes over time
                  (caused by sharp pieces of sand ?) that are extremely difficoult to
                  see. I observed these on my black Airblast while holding it up
                  against the light.

                  Ole


                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                  > G'day Pete
                  >
                  > Your advice re repairs is good, but I must disagree with
                  >
                  > "terminalveloce wrote"
                  >
                  > There is also no doubt that some batches of fabric are faulty -
                  > they have a weakness running through them - and this can occur
                  > in the middle of a role. I have a suspicion that large inflatables
                  > are maybe more prone to fabric defects due to the relatively large
                  > panel sizes. At the end of the day though I reckon it's usually
                  > poor load distribution, caused by other problems, bad design,
                  > build quality or repair, that makes an otherwise healthy looking
                  > panel fail.
                  >
                  > This is just not true mate, cloth is inspected and tested at
                  several stages
                  > during manufacture, defected bits are removed and maybe sold as
                  seconds for
                  > various uses (stunt/sport kites, some foils!!)
                  > All the cloth used in the inflatos is virtually the same ripstop
                  polyester,
                  > 1st grade cloth.
                  > All inflatable sled kites load the centre panels quite highly, ANY
                  SMALL
                  > NICK OR CUT can turn into a doorway sized tear, if not properly
                  repaired.
                  > I recommend the glue method of repair for tears in these areas of a
                  LEI
                  > kite, so that you are not placing a row of needle holes in this
                  high stress
                  > area, which are leaving the area weakened and readily able to tear
                  again.
                  > I think Ole realizes that these rips are attributable to pre-
                  existing damage
                  > or bad repairs?
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