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Ripped kites / Warranty

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  • olehlie
    I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more. Three Wipi AB sts and one ARX. Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard, last 3-
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 31, 2002
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      I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more. Three Wipi
      AB'sts and one ARX.
      Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard, last 3-
      4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of the kites
      have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels before the
      total rupture.
      Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish seem to be
      very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
      experiences ?
    • Kitepower
      I am sympathetic in that it is awful to watch your kites ripping and not being able to do a thing to stop it!!! When you say your kites just ripped in the air,
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 31, 2002
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        I am sympathetic in that it is awful to watch your kites ripping and not
        being able to do a thing to stop it!!!
        When you say your kites just ripped in the air, it tells me that there was
        some existing damage that was poorly repaired or was undetected by you. This
        type of damage is not covered by any kite manufacturers I know of.
        Also when you state they ripped in crashes on the water, it also indicates
        there may have been existing damage, and some peoples interpretation of "not
        very hard" is amazing!
        The good news is that they are simple repairs and will not affect the life
        of your kite if properly repaired.
        Kites are not designed to crash, they are designed to fly, like aircraft you
        don't get a warranty that includes damage from crashing.
        Manufacturers are always looking for ways to make kites more durable, but
        there is a cutoff point, in that if the kite gets over a certain weight per
        M it will be a flying pig.
        How do you think you are getting the small cuts in the sail that are causing
        your problems?

        Cya and
        Goodwinds
        Steve McCormack
        http://www.kitepower.com.au
        mailto:sydney@...
        Open 7 days
        126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
        Phone +61293157894

        -----Original Message-----
        From: olehlie [mailto:olelie@...]
        Sent: 01 February, 2002 1:01 PM
        To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ksurf] Ripped kites / Warranty


        I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more. Three Wipi
        AB'sts and one ARX.
        Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard, last 3-
        4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of the kites
        have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels before the
        total rupture.
        Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish seem to be
        very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
        experiences ?


        Support your local kitesurf association !


        <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • theflyingtinman
        ... When I m out at the beach I see some nerve-wracking crashes (sometimes just hear them) on water and land, that make me cringe. But when ever we hear about
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 31, 2002
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          --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
          >.. and some peoples interpretation of "not
          > very hard" is amazing!

          When I'm out at the beach I see some nerve-wracking
          crashes (sometimes just hear them) on water and land,
          that make me cringe. But when ever we hear about
          someone's kite ripping or bursting it always always
          seems to have happened while flying or 'crashing'
          gently on the water! Amazing.
          Don't ANY of these drastic failures happen while someone
          is beating the crap out of their kite? It never seems to
          happen to anyone here ;-)

          Steve T.
        • gregwalshau
          The chicken loop on my Arc gave way causing all load to be transferred to the brake lines. This snapped a spar which in turn caused the whole tip of the kite
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 31, 2002
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            The chicken loop on my Arc gave way causing all load to be
            transferred to the brake lines. This snapped a spar which in turn
            caused the whole tip of the kite to be torn off. Peter Lynn are
            repairing the damage at a big discount. I think I could have made
            pretty strong case for a warranty repair but they've been reasonable
            about it and I haven't had to hassle so I'm happy.

            I also crashed my Vector 9.0 full speed nose first onto the ground
            and burst a cell. They were very sympathetic and gave me a super good
            deal on my Vector 11.5 which is my current favourite kite. Massive
            range with the chicken loop and easy handling.

            I used to think the Vector was a bit lightly built comapared to other
            kites. But hearing about all these other kites splitting in half I'm
            not so sure. The Vector was really easy to fix.

            In both of my cases there was an obvious cause to the damage.

            It could be said that kites that split in half have been damaged or
            mistreated in some way. It is quite possible that they were sewn with
            a blunt needle and the stitch holes have torn through. It has
            happened before.

            Greg

            --- In kitesurf@y..., "olehlie" <olelie@s...> wrote:
            > I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more. Three Wipi
            > AB'sts and one ARX.
            > Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard, last
            3-
            > 4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of the
            kites
            > have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels before the
            > total rupture.
            > Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish seem to
            be
            > very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
            > experiences ?
          • Kitepower
            He did say he has ripped 4 kites now from 2 different manufacturers Greg, hardly a blunt needle syndrome, don t you think? In the case of the examples you
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 31, 2002
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              He did say he has ripped 4 kites now from 2 different manufacturers Greg,
              hardly a blunt needle syndrome, don't you think?
              In the case of the examples you gave, it would seem that some fault was
              attributable to you as you still have had to pay.
              Damage from crashing kites is not covered by any warranty I know of.
              The way your kite we repaired was built was fine in my opinion if the kite
              was not abused by learners, look what happened with one error on your part.
              Lightness and strength generally are the ultimate goals in construction of
              kites.
              I am not aware of any kites I have sold ever being replaced under warranty
              for faulty manufacture due to blunt needles?


              Cya and
              Goodwinds
              Steve McCormack
              http://www.kitepower.com.au
              mailto:sydney@...
              Open 7 days
              126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
              Phone +61293157894

              -----Original Message-----
              From: gregwalshau [mailto:Greg.Walsh@...]
              Sent: 01 February, 2002 4:16 PM
              To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [ksurf] Re: Ripped kites / Warranty


              The chicken loop on my Arc gave way causing all load to be
              transferred to the brake lines. This snapped a spar which in turn
              caused the whole tip of the kite to be torn off. Peter Lynn are
              repairing the damage at a big discount. I think I could have made
              pretty strong case for a warranty repair but they've been reasonable
              about it and I haven't had to hassle so I'm happy.

              I also crashed my Vector 9.0 full speed nose first onto the ground
              and burst a cell. They were very sympathetic and gave me a super good
              deal on my Vector 11.5 which is my current favourite kite. Massive
              range with the chicken loop and easy handling.

              I used to think the Vector was a bit lightly built comapared to other
              kites. But hearing about all these other kites splitting in half I'm
              not so sure. The Vector was really easy to fix.

              In both of my cases there was an obvious cause to the damage.

              It could be said that kites that split in half have been damaged or
              mistreated in some way. It is quite possible that they were sewn with
              a blunt needle and the stitch holes have torn through. It has
              happened before.

              Greg

              --- In kitesurf@y..., "olehlie" <olelie@s...> wrote:
              > I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more. Three Wipi
              > AB'sts and one ARX.
              > Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard, last
              3-
              > 4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of the
              kites
              > have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels before the
              > total rupture.
              > Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish seem to
              be
              > very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
              > experiences ?


              Support your local kitesurf association !


              <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • gregwalshau
              The man asked for similar experiences and I have had two quite good ones so I told him about them. One was not really my fault and the other was pretty much my
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 31, 2002
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                The man asked for similar experiences and I have had two quite good
                ones so I told him about them. One was not really my fault and the
                other was pretty much my fault. Both manufacturers were pretty good
                about it with no hard words or demands.

                As far as the stitch holes I just raised the point because I know it
                has happened (it was actually a Firebird Flame paraglider that split
                in half in the air. Rob Whittall replied with a shrug and said these
                things happen.) Just tossing some information into the pot as we do
                on a Friday afternoon when the wind looks crappy. Free and frank
                discussion and all that crap.

                It's pretty unlikely that stitch holes could cause a problem in a
                kite with glued seams and our friend seems to have more than his fair
                share of bad luck. But with the rate of delaminations, bad bladder
                materials, bad LE fabric, crap seams and stuff getting around, when
                someone says they were just flying along and their kite fell in half
                you'd have to be half inclined to believe them.

                Greg


                --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                > He did say he has ripped 4 kites now from 2 different manufacturers
                Greg,
                > hardly a blunt needle syndrome, don't you think?
                > In the case of the examples you gave, it would seem that some
                fault was
                > attributable to you as you still have had to pay.
                > Damage from crashing kites is not covered by any warranty I know of.
                > The way your kite we repaired was built was fine in my opinion if
                the kite
                > was not abused by learners, look what happened with one error on
                your part.
                > Lightness and strength generally are the ultimate goals in
                construction of
                > kites.
                > I am not aware of any kites I have sold ever being replaced under
                warranty
                > for faulty manufacture due to blunt needles?
                >
                >
                > Cya and
                > Goodwinds
                > Steve McCormack
                > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                > mailto:sydney@k...
                > Open 7 days
                > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                > Phone +61293157894
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: gregwalshau [mailto:Greg.Walsh@b...]
                > Sent: 01 February, 2002 4:16 PM
                > To: kitesurf@y...
                > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Ripped kites / Warranty
                >
                >
                > The chicken loop on my Arc gave way causing all load to be
                > transferred to the brake lines. This snapped a spar which in turn
                > caused the whole tip of the kite to be torn off. Peter Lynn are
                > repairing the damage at a big discount. I think I could have made
                > pretty strong case for a warranty repair but they've been reasonable
                > about it and I haven't had to hassle so I'm happy.
                >
                > I also crashed my Vector 9.0 full speed nose first onto the ground
                > and burst a cell. They were very sympathetic and gave me a super
                good
                > deal on my Vector 11.5 which is my current favourite kite. Massive
                > range with the chicken loop and easy handling.
                >
                > I used to think the Vector was a bit lightly built comapared to
                other
                > kites. But hearing about all these other kites splitting in half I'm
                > not so sure. The Vector was really easy to fix.
                >
                > In both of my cases there was an obvious cause to the damage.
                >
                > It could be said that kites that split in half have been damaged or
                > mistreated in some way. It is quite possible that they were sewn
                with
                > a blunt needle and the stitch holes have torn through. It has
                > happened before.
                >
                > Greg
                >
                > --- In kitesurf@y..., "olehlie" <olelie@s...> wrote:
                > > I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more. Three
                Wipi
                > > AB'sts and one ARX.
                > > Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard,
                last
                > 3-
                > > 4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of the
                > kites
                > > have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels before
                the
                > > total rupture.
                > > Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish seem to
                > be
                > > very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
                > > experiences ?
                >
                >
                > Support your local kitesurf association !
                >
                >
                > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Kitepower
                No worries Greg, I agree the group is for exactly what we are doing, having a discussion, in an open way so that others can share and or contribute. I was
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 31, 2002
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                  No worries Greg, I agree the group is for exactly what we are doing, having
                  a discussion, in an open way so that others can share and or contribute.
                  I was really surprised you wore out that 9,000,000lb spectra rope on the PL
                  bar without noticing it was getting seriously frayed. We recommend people
                  dip that stuff in melted CANDLE wax before they use it.
                  If someone in my paraglider factory continued to sew a whole canopy with a
                  blunt needle, I would get another machinist, you can hear when a needle goes
                  off let alone see the result, perhaps that was a furphy comment to distract
                  people from a more serious problem in that canopy?

                  * in half in the air. Rob Whittall replied with a shrug and said these
                  * things happen.) Just tossing some information into the pot as we do
                  * on a Friday afternoon when the wind looks crappy. Free and frank
                  * discussion and all that crap.

                  Yes the wind is crap, the rain is continuous, and it is time to top and do
                  something else real soon, as it is nearly beeroclock! :-)

                  * It's pretty unlikely that stitch holes could cause a problem in a
                  * kite with glued seams

                  It will be very troublesome when trying to sew a kite with glued seams with
                  a blunt needle!

                  and our friend seems to have more than his fair
                  * share of bad luck

                  True, but seems is the word!

                  . But with the rate of delaminations, bad bladder
                  * materials, bad LE fabric, crap seams and stuff getting around, when
                  * someone says they were just flying along and their kite fell in half
                  * you'd have to be half inclined to believe them.

                  No. I disagree, the percentage of really faulty kites is actually incredibly
                  low compared to the vast numbers sold. Maybe 1% or less is my guess?
                  Whenever anyone says my kite just ripped in half, broke in two,
                  disintegrated, I would estimate that 99% of the times it was caused by
                  pre-existing damage, even damage done a few minutes earlier in a "not too
                  hard" crash.
                  It is so rare to have a kite that gets through quality control with a defect
                  serious enough to self destruct on the first flight. If it does not destruct
                  on the first flight then I would say 99% of kites are without manufacturing
                  defects.
                  I know Peter Lynn is very fair in this regard, a person ripped a 1410 in
                  half here a while back after it luffed and powered back up suddenly, it was
                  repaired under warranty, it was a few weeks old. Another person ripped the
                  big Cabrinha 4 liner in half after a luff and power up, it was only a couple
                  of weeks old, it was replaced.
                  A 10' Flexi kite was returned to me by a shop I deal with, it had half a
                  kilo of sand in it, it was repaired for free and returned, but the shop got
                  a lesson in warranty and looking after kites.
                  Anyway like most manufacturers if there is a serious problem in the first
                  hours flying we will generally just replace the product. If the person
                  managed to get the kite without lessons or instructions (gifts etc) we will
                  replace or repair and give the lesson.
                  If someone is not sure why they are crashing they get a lesson.
                  If I see a hole in someone's kite I tell them. Trouble is the small cuts
                  that can cause these massive gut wrenching door sized holes in your
                  favourite inflato/arc/whatever, can be hard to see unless the kite is pumped
                  up, I always inspect my kite if it has come anywhere near anything that
                  could cut it.
                  I usually repair and sell any demo kite that gets a cut, I never want to be
                  doing a demo and the kite tears in half!!! :-))
                • terminalveloce
                  My two cents, as I m still at work well past beer o clock... I ve experienced 3 major structural failures in kites. I was a little disappointed in the kites
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                    My two cents, as I'm still at work well past beer o'clock...

                    I've experienced 3 major structural failures in kites. I was a
                    little disappointed in the kites at the time, but in hindsight all
                    were initiated by smaller failures - the most spectacular was tearing
                    a foil in half while I was 15ft off the deck. Post faceplant
                    analysis was that part of the secondary bridles had let go (I
                    actually heard a pop before the tear) at a knot, and overstressed the
                    seams and remaining bridle. Not what I'd call a manufacturing fault -
                    the kite was old, so more like my fault for not rebridling my foils
                    when they're looking shagged. I could've argued that they should've
                    used 700lb bridles, sewn them instead of knotted them etc. but the
                    end result would be an expensive pig, and I'd be laughed out of town
                    (that happens often enough anyway...;-)

                    The other side of this was when I loaned a nice new(ish) 10ft Flexi
                    to a bloke who claimed to be competent and wanted to try one before
                    buying. He went out and belted snot out of it for a couple of hours -
                    12 o'clock to 6 o'clock nose first, everything you can think of, and
                    the kite still looked OKish. Lots of nicks and cuts in the LE, split
                    spar, and eventually a popped cell, but it stood up to a unbelievable
                    thrashing ("but it just kept flying into the ground" was his
                    excuse). He did end up buying a lot of kites though.

                    I'm with Steve on this one - if the kite survives the first 10 hours
                    in the air without showing signs of fabric distress (where seams have
                    been sewn badly, or defects in the fabric) or zipped/fraying
                    stitching it's probably OK. It's a grey area, but if you bought a
                    car that had a defective valve in one of the front tyres, drove it
                    for a week never checking your tyres, then went out and ran into a
                    tree because you hadn't noticed the tyre was now flat who's fault is
                    it (actually, litigation conscious Americans need not answer that ;-
                    )).

                    Please let there be wind tomorrow. This is soooooo dull...
                    Pete



                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                    > I am sympathetic in that it is awful to watch your kites ripping
                    and not
                    > being able to do a thing to stop it!!!
                    > When you say your kites just ripped in the air, it tells me that
                    there was
                    > some existing damage that was poorly repaired or was undetected by
                    you. This
                    > type of damage is not covered by any kite manufacturers I know of.
                    > Also when you state they ripped in crashes on the water, it also
                    indicates
                    > there may have been existing damage, and some peoples
                    interpretation of "not
                    > very hard" is amazing!
                    > The good news is that they are simple repairs and will not affect
                    the life
                    > of your kite if properly repaired.
                    > Kites are not designed to crash, they are designed to fly, like
                    aircraft you
                    > don't get a warranty that includes damage from crashing.
                    > Manufacturers are always looking for ways to make kites more
                    durable, but
                    > there is a cutoff point, in that if the kite gets over a certain
                    weight per
                    > M it will be a flying pig.
                    > How do you think you are getting the small cuts in the sail that
                    are causing
                    > your problems?
                    >
                    > Cya and
                    > Goodwinds
                    > Steve McCormack
                    > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                    > mailto:sydney@k...
                    > Open 7 days
                    > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                    > Phone +61293157894
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: olehlie [mailto:olelie@s...]
                    > Sent: 01 February, 2002 1:01 PM
                    > To: kitesurf@y...
                    > Subject: [ksurf] Ripped kites / Warranty
                    >
                    >
                    > I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more. Three Wipi
                    > AB'sts and one ARX.
                    > Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard, last
                    3-
                    > 4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of the
                    kites
                    > have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels before the
                    > total rupture.
                    > Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish seem to be
                    > very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
                    > experiences ?
                    >
                    >
                    > Support your local kitesurf association !
                    >
                    >
                    > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • olehlie
                    Thanks for all the reply guys. To clarify the matter a little more: I am aware that existing tears may cause the kite to rip. The first total rupture may well
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                      Thanks for all the reply guys. To clarify the matter a little more:

                      I am aware that existing tears may cause the kite to rip. The first
                      total rupture may well have been caused by some existing tear that
                      went unnoticed as I at the time was not paying particular attention
                      to the kite before takeoff.
                      After the first rip however, I was made aware of this and I now
                      regularly look over the kite before takeoff to check for small nicks.
                      Some of the kites did have small pinholes and tears but I always
                      patch these up before flying again.
                      Two of the damaged kites had 1 foot tears repaired previously
                      (misjudging of line length and landing the kite in a tree/umbrella
                      respectively) but these were in a different panel to the catastrophic
                      rips.

                      My theory is that the fabric is weakened by exposure to sun/salt and
                      that at some stage the strain on one particualar part of the seam
                      gets to high. Once the cloth starts ripping, nothing will stop it
                      until the rip takes out the whole panel or hits some padding or other
                      reinforcement.
                      It may also be that undetected pinholes are the nucleus of the tear
                      but I really have been paying attention to the state of the kites
                      before takeoff with respect to my previous experiences.
                      Funny thing is that the tears only seem to happen with my own kites.
                      I've borrowed lots of other peoples kites and exposed them to my
                      usual 'abuse' without having them rip.

                      Aloha,

                      Ole, Norway



                      --- In kitesurf@y..., "olehlie" <olelie@s...> wrote:
                      > I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more. Three Wipi
                      > AB'sts and one ARX.
                      > Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard, last
                      3-
                      > 4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of the
                      kites
                      > have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels before the
                      > total rupture.
                      > Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish seem to
                      be
                      > very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
                      > experiences ?
                    • gregwalshau
                      ... snip ... on the PL ... people ... snip I don t really know what happened to the chicken loop. It all just disappeared. There was no remnant left on the
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:

                        snip

                        > I was really surprised you wore out that 9,000,000lb spectra rope
                        on the PL
                        > bar without noticing it was getting seriously frayed. We recommend
                        people
                        > dip that stuff in melted CANDLE wax before they use it.

                        snip


                        I don't really know what happened to the chicken loop. It all just
                        disappeared. There was no remnant left on the front lines when I
                        retrieved everything. Either the leader snapped right at the knot or
                        the knot came undone. The kite had been kitesurfed twice and flown on
                        the beach half a dozen times. There was no significant wear on
                        anything.

                        If I was inclined to be bullish I could have ranted about the crappy
                        knots and line and I was just riding along and minding my own
                        business and none of my other kites have done this and the whole
                        bluddy tip came off and and what sort of crap products are you making
                        and unfit for the intended purpose blah blah blah (as I have done
                        before).

                        In fact, it was in 30 knots and you have to be a little philosophical
                        about things being damaged in those sorts of winds, and the cost of
                        the repair includes adding flares and reinforcing the tips and
                        shipping and stuff and PL started from a position of trying to help
                        so there was no reason for anyone to get upset.

                        Greg
                      • Kitepower
                        Aha! :-) I know what happened, the knot at the end of the trim lop rope slipped under load and then your front lines went missing and in the resulting crash,
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                          Aha! :-)
                          I know what happened, the knot at the end of the trim lop rope slipped under
                          load and then your front lines went missing and in the resulting crash, the
                          remainder of the loop simply washed out from the bar and is floating around
                          on Pt Phillip bay!! :-)
                          This has happened to me with that spectra PL use on various things, so now I
                          always tie 2 knots next to each other, in any pure, unsheathed spectra line.
                          Peter Lynn LTD, NZ have always been extremely helpful if there is a warranty
                          claim or any problem with their products. It sounds like they have looked
                          after you very well.

                          Cya and
                          Goodwinds
                          Steve McCormack
                          http://www.kitepower.com.au
                          mailto:sydney@...
                          Open 7 days
                          126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                          Phone +61293157894

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: gregwalshau [mailto:Greg.Walsh@...]
                          Sent: 02 February, 2002 9:13 AM
                          To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [ksurf] Re: Ripped kites / Warranty


                          --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:

                          snip

                          > I was really surprised you wore out that 9,000,000lb spectra rope
                          on the PL
                          > bar without noticing it was getting seriously frayed. We recommend
                          people
                          > dip that stuff in melted CANDLE wax before they use it.

                          snip


                          I don't really know what happened to the chicken loop. It all just
                          disappeared. There was no remnant left on the front lines when I
                          retrieved everything. Either the leader snapped right at the knot or
                          the knot came undone. The kite had been kitesurfed twice and flown on
                          the beach half a dozen times. There was no significant wear on
                          anything.

                          If I was inclined to be bullish I could have ranted about the crappy
                          knots and line and I was just riding along and minding my own
                          business and none of my other kites have done this and the whole
                          bluddy tip came off and and what sort of crap products are you making
                          and unfit for the intended purpose blah blah blah (as I have done
                          before).

                          In fact, it was in 30 knots and you have to be a little philosophical
                          about things being damaged in those sorts of winds, and the cost of
                          the repair includes adding flares and reinforcing the tips and
                          shipping and stuff and PL started from a position of trying to help
                          so there was no reason for anyone to get upset.

                          Greg


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                        • terminalveloce
                          Ole, There is no doubt that exposure to UV, salt, sand etc. all causes fabric to deteriorate. Greg will tell you about UV and paragliders - from what little I
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                            Ole,
                            There is no doubt that exposure to UV, salt, sand etc. all causes
                            fabric to deteriorate. Greg will tell you about UV and paragliders -
                            from what little I know you retire them after so many hours
                            because the fabric gets suspect.

                            There is also no doubt that some batches of fabric are faulty -
                            they have a weakness running through them - and this can occur
                            in the middle of a role. I have a suspicion that large inflatables
                            are maybe more prone to fabric defects due to the relatively large
                            panel sizes. At the end of the day though I reckon it's usually
                            poor load distribution, caused by other problems, bad design,
                            build quality or repair, that makes an otherwise healthy looking
                            panel fail.

                            When you get a repair done, check it out before going on the
                            water. Get someone to fly your kite down at the edge of the
                            window, walk around so you can see the kite from up close, and
                            check out the area around the repair - it kite the shape, or weave
                            of the fabric, is badly distorted (lumps & bumps, creases) it's not
                            a great repair, or the kite was more badly damaged than you
                            knew. Rarely do tears just result in holes - they stress other bits
                            of the kite, which strectches the fabric. If you see anything sus,
                            and aren't sure if it's bad, take a photo of it. Then if it fails later
                            you've got the before and after picture. You can do the same with
                            a new kite. Believe it or not, good feedback on failures can make
                            a difference to manufacturers quality control. It's also useful

                            Pete

                            --- In kitesurf@y..., "olehlie" <olelie@s...> wrote:
                            > Thanks for all the reply guys. To clarify the matter a little more:
                            >
                            > I am aware that existing tears may cause the kite to rip. The
                            first
                            > total rupture may well have been caused by some existing tear
                            that
                            > went unnoticed as I at the time was not paying particular
                            attention
                            > to the kite before takeoff.
                            > After the first rip however, I was made aware of this and I now
                            > regularly look over the kite before takeoff to check for small
                            nicks.
                            > Some of the kites did have small pinholes and tears but I
                            always
                            > patch these up before flying again.
                            > Two of the damaged kites had 1 foot tears repaired previously
                            > (misjudging of line length and landing the kite in a
                            tree/umbrella
                            > respectively) but these were in a different panel to the
                            catastrophic
                            > rips.
                            >
                            > My theory is that the fabric is weakened by exposure to sun/salt
                            and
                            > that at some stage the strain on one particualar part of the
                            seam
                            > gets to high. Once the cloth starts ripping, nothing will stop it
                            > until the rip takes out the whole panel or hits some padding or
                            other
                            > reinforcement.
                            > It may also be that undetected pinholes are the nucleus of the
                            tear
                            > but I really have been paying attention to the state of the kites
                            > before takeoff with respect to my previous experiences.
                            > Funny thing is that the tears only seem to happen with my own
                            kites.
                            > I've borrowed lots of other peoples kites and exposed them to
                            my
                            > usual 'abuse' without having them rip.
                            >
                            > Aloha,
                            >
                            > Ole, Norway
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In kitesurf@y..., "olehlie" <olelie@s...> wrote:
                            > > I recently ripped my fourth kite LE to TE and some more.
                            Three Wipi
                            > > AB'sts and one ARX.
                            > > Two ripped when hitting the water LE first (not all that hard,
                            last
                            > 3-
                            > > 4m on tight lines) and two ripped while in mid-air. Some of
                            the
                            > kites
                            > > have had some minor cuts (repaired ones) in other panels
                            before the
                            > > total rupture.
                            > > Working on warranty claims now but neither Wipi nor Naish
                            seem to
                            > be
                            > > very cooperative with my claims. Anyone else with similar
                            > > experiences ?
                          • Kitepower
                            G day Pete Your advice re repairs is good, but I must disagree with terminalveloce wrote There is also no doubt that some batches of fabric are faulty - they
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                              G'day Pete

                              Your advice re repairs is good, but I must disagree with

                              "terminalveloce wrote"

                              There is also no doubt that some batches of fabric are faulty -
                              they have a weakness running through them - and this can occur
                              in the middle of a role. I have a suspicion that large inflatables
                              are maybe more prone to fabric defects due to the relatively large
                              panel sizes. At the end of the day though I reckon it's usually
                              poor load distribution, caused by other problems, bad design,
                              build quality or repair, that makes an otherwise healthy looking
                              panel fail.

                              This is just not true mate, cloth is inspected and tested at several stages
                              during manufacture, defected bits are removed and maybe sold as seconds for
                              various uses (stunt/sport kites, some foils!!)
                              All the cloth used in the inflatos is virtually the same ripstop polyester,
                              1st grade cloth.
                              All inflatable sled kites load the centre panels quite highly, ANY SMALL
                              NICK OR CUT can turn into a doorway sized tear, if not properly repaired.
                              I recommend the glue method of repair for tears in these areas of a LEI
                              kite, so that you are not placing a row of needle holes in this high stress
                              area, which are leaving the area weakened and readily able to tear again.
                              I think Ole realizes that these rips are attributable to pre-existing damage
                              or bad repairs?
                            • olehlie
                              Whenever I get a small nick in the main panels I patch it up with spinnaker tape (self adhesive ripstop tape). I make sure that the edges of the nicks are
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                                Whenever I get a small 'nick' in the main panels I patch it up
                                with 'spinnaker tape' (self adhesive ripstop tape). I make sure that
                                the edges of the nicks are well alligned, put on a patch well bigger
                                than the nick and repeat the process on the reverse side making sure
                                not to overlap the edges (which are of course cut rounded).

                                I would think this should eliminate the weakness caused bt the
                                original nick ?

                                Problem is that it is really hard in hindsight to see where the tear
                                started. It for sure follows the stitching once it rips, but I guess
                                that is only natural as 'tear along the dotted line' will be the path
                                of least resistance and not necesarily mean that this is where the
                                tear started.

                                I have noticed that many kites develop tiny pinholes over time
                                (caused by sharp pieces of sand ?) that are extremely difficoult to
                                see. I observed these on my black Airblast while holding it up
                                against the light.

                                Ole


                                --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                                > G'day Pete
                                >
                                > Your advice re repairs is good, but I must disagree with
                                >
                                > "terminalveloce wrote"
                                >
                                > There is also no doubt that some batches of fabric are faulty -
                                > they have a weakness running through them - and this can occur
                                > in the middle of a role. I have a suspicion that large inflatables
                                > are maybe more prone to fabric defects due to the relatively large
                                > panel sizes. At the end of the day though I reckon it's usually
                                > poor load distribution, caused by other problems, bad design,
                                > build quality or repair, that makes an otherwise healthy looking
                                > panel fail.
                                >
                                > This is just not true mate, cloth is inspected and tested at
                                several stages
                                > during manufacture, defected bits are removed and maybe sold as
                                seconds for
                                > various uses (stunt/sport kites, some foils!!)
                                > All the cloth used in the inflatos is virtually the same ripstop
                                polyester,
                                > 1st grade cloth.
                                > All inflatable sled kites load the centre panels quite highly, ANY
                                SMALL
                                > NICK OR CUT can turn into a doorway sized tear, if not properly
                                repaired.
                                > I recommend the glue method of repair for tears in these areas of a
                                LEI
                                > kite, so that you are not placing a row of needle holes in this
                                high stress
                                > area, which are leaving the area weakened and readily able to tear
                                again.
                                > I think Ole realizes that these rips are attributable to pre-
                                existing damage
                                > or bad repairs?
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