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[ksurf] Re: ARC 630 vs Naish AR3 7m - Arcs will kick your arse

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  • gregwalshau
    ... snip ... great ... improve. I ... situation ... just ... up ... that. ... for ... Arcs could be the best kite ever but you Arc guys have to sort out a
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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      --- In kitesurf@y..., "monkeyair" <traigtrumbo@e...> wrote:

      snip

      > > DT
      > Glad you are happy with your kites. Inflatos are obviously
      great
      > kites. Just didn't want the newbies to think that Arcs were not a
      > great option. Don't see it as a threat. Just responded to a few
      > questions. I don't care if the airs are filled with arcs or
      > inflatables in 10 years. Would just like all the kites to
      improve. I
      > have sent customers to many other shops on this group because they
      > wanted a specific inflato or we thought in there high wind
      situation
      > an inflatable was more appropriate. Hung Vu's prospective post
      > probably nailed the ranges of application relatively well. Was
      just
      > attempting to point out some of the marketing inequalities brought
      up
      > in Steves post. He is a good sport about pulling his chain like
      that.
      > No insults to any kite company as they all deserve great respect
      for
      > keeping us out on the water. Especially the big names. Good winds.
      > Traig

      Arcs could be the best kite ever but you Arc guys have to sort out a
      safe and reliable way of launching the Arc for all levels of
      experience and all conditions. There's multiple ways and they're not
      all easy and not all safe. The most commonly touted way of launching
      an Arc (downwind, butt-hole pre-inflation, hooked in, pull the
      brakes) is not safe and not easy.

      Mr Lynn also needs to pull his digit out of his fundamental orifice
      and deliver the lines and bar in a fit state for use. Length set,
      sleeving sewn, decent trim adjuster, no tangle prone knots.

      All inflatables are setup, launched and landed in exactly the same
      way in all conditions. (True the neat nose flop landing is more an
      experienced manouver). This makes them super simple and safe. Luffing
      while in flight and bladder life is another issue and it seems that
      the manufacturers are addressing that.

      Similarly, most decent foils can be launched easily and safely using
      one simple method. Landing elegantly can be a problem but it's still
      relatively safe.

      Greg
    • igsmith
      Here s a concern I have about ARCs and foils in general (coming from a rider of inflatables)...in the last two weeks I have seen it happen three times that
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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        Here's a concern I have about ARCs and foils in general (coming from
        a rider of inflatables)...in the last two weeks I have seen it happen
        three times that riders have broken lines (twice with foils once with
        a wipi). If you are close to shore or in shallow water, no problem
        with either foil or inflatable. BUT if you are far away from land,
        with an inflatable you can wind your lines and then use the kite as a
        sail/life preserver to get you back to shore (in on-shore
        conditions). With ARCs/Foils, it seems you are swimming with a very
        wet and not very buoyant kite.

        Has anyone had to do the swim far with an ARC? If so, how do they do
        it, especially if you use a low-volume board/wakeboard?
      • gregwalshau
        ... from ... happen ... with ... a ... do ... If the kite is floating then just tow it along by the leash. I have done this and it works fine. An Arc or a
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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          --- In kitesurf@y..., "igsmith" <igsmith@y...> wrote:
          > Here's a concern I have about ARCs and foils in general (coming
          from
          > a rider of inflatables)...in the last two weeks I have seen it
          happen
          > three times that riders have broken lines (twice with foils once
          with
          > a wipi). If you are close to shore or in shallow water, no problem
          > with either foil or inflatable. BUT if you are far away from land,
          > with an inflatable you can wind your lines and then use the kite as
          a
          > sail/life preserver to get you back to shore (in on-shore
          > conditions). With ARCs/Foils, it seems you are swimming with a very
          > wet and not very buoyant kite.
          >
          > Has anyone had to do the swim far with an ARC? If so, how do they
          do
          > it, especially if you use a low-volume board/wakeboard?

          If the kite is floating then just tow it along by the leash. I have
          done this and it works fine. An Arc or a high-volume valved foil will
          float even with a big split provided the split is on the waterside.
          The water actually stops all the air leaking out (Truly. I know this
          from experience not theory.) You can just swim along using your
          favourite stroke and tow the board and the kite by the leash.

          Otherwise roll it around the bar into a big sausage, lay it on the
          board and just kick in. Take your time and never go out in offshore
          conditions. Rather than try to swim directly to shore just go with
          the current and the wind and just kick to influence your landing spot.

          Regards

          Greg
        • monkeyair
          ... You nailed it there. Think Mel/Mark and a few other touched on the launching subject in past posts. Experience and to a greater degree, common sense is
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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            --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
            > --- In kitesurf@y..., "monkeyair" <traigtrumbo@e...> wrote:
            >
            > snip
            >
            > > >
            > Arcs could be the best kite ever but you Arc guys have to sort out a
            > safe and reliable way of launching the Arc for all levels of
            > experience and all conditions. There's multiple ways and they're not
            > all easy and not all safe. The most commonly touted way of launching
            > an Arc (downwind, butt-hole pre-inflation, hooked in, pull the
            > brakes) is not safe and not easy.
            You nailed it there. Think Mel/Mark and a few other touched on the
            launching subject in past posts. Experience and to a greater degree,
            common sense is paramount. The method you mentioned can be safe and
            easy if properly taught. (correct brake tension of utmost importance)
            The (almost edge of window launch works well as long as the kite is
            inflated well. (John M favored method even with huge stacks of kites
            and rubber chickens) Proper use of the chicken loop and strap is
            something that should be mastered in the lesson prior to teaching this
            though. The only instance where the original launch you mentioned gets
            hairball, is in super strong winds with an untrained newbie. Rear
            lines aren't tight enough/ not enough pre inflation and kite whips up
            to Zenith at Mach 10 and yanks said beginner down the beach and into
            the powerlines. Good for dermabrasion/sea gull food and bad for
            confidence to be sure. We have launched in every wind condition with
            this type of straight downwind launch and not moved more than a foot
            down the beach. The trick is contol of the kite with brake leader
            tension and not allowing it to ever climb more than a few feet at a
            time and never letting it climb above 30 degrees on the horizon with
            out adequate inflation, even in light winds. The edge of window launch
            will probably build in popularity. It is so easy to launch and land
            the arc straight down wind it is probably the most used methods by
            the self taught guys. Most common mistakes. Inadequate inflation and
            relative brake line length from what we have seen. "We" is a couple of
            instructors I work with.
            >
            > Mr Lynn also needs to pull his digit out of his fundamental orifice
            > and deliver the lines and bar in a fit state for use. Length set,
            > sleeving sewn, decent trim adjuster, no tangle prone knots.
            Wouldn't that be nice. They offer all the stuff on the brochure.
            Just need to get it all together. Not sure if it is actually him or
            his marketing guys in charge of that after the actual kite design/R@D/
            building. It is hard to bag on PL though. I do have that cardboard
            cut out of PL. Steve warned me that it might be a fake, inferior
            cardboard picture of his stunt double. Come to think of it, the guy in
            my cardboard cut out looks a lot like Robin Williams. But he is
            wearing the goofy hat. The guy ROCKS!! PL got Robin Williams to pose
            for him..Unreal Robin Williams as the comedic kite designers monologue
            double. That explains the PL news letters.
            >
            > All inflatables are setup, launched and landed in exactly the same
            > way in all conditions. (True the neat nose flop landing is more an
            > experienced manouver). This makes them super simple and safe.
            Luffing
            > while in flight and bladder life is another issue and it seems that
            > the manufacturers are addressing that.
            >
            > Similarly, most decent foils can be launched easily and safely using
            > one simple method. Landing elegantly can be a problem but it's still
            > relatively safe.
            Yeah, the third line drop or fold in half form of foil landing
            (wallend/mossi) is quite clever. The brake the kite down on the back
            lines is very easy on an arc though. Are you refering to the launch
            of the foils, pre inflated at the edge of the window? Cause straight
            down wind launching with any foil is much more difficult than a
            properly braked arc in my experience. A four lined Advance Io with
            adequate brake tension allowed a semi slow launch as did the Flysurfer
            with the brakes all the way on, but all the two and three line set ups
            on the Wallend, Mosquittos, Guns, Blades, Waterfoils and Jo Jos
            straight down wind were sprint on the sand maneuvers with out adequate
            training. We will work on more commonality between areas in teaching
            procedures for arc launch and landings. The best would be to teach
            every method to every student. Thanks Greg. Have Fun. Traig.
            >
            > Greg
          • theflyingtinman
            ... from ... happen ... with ... a ... do ... I did a 45 minute swim one day with a downed 1120 when the wind died completely and I arrived at shore with a lot
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 2, 2002
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              --- In kitesurf@y..., "igsmith" <igsmith@y...> wrote:
              > Here's a concern I have about ARCs and foils in general (coming
              from
              > a rider of inflatables)...in the last two weeks I have seen it
              happen
              > three times that riders have broken lines (twice with foils once
              with
              > a wipi). If you are close to shore or in shallow water, no problem
              > with either foil or inflatable. BUT if you are far away from land,
              > with an inflatable you can wind your lines and then use the kite as
              a
              > sail/life preserver to get you back to shore (in on-shore
              > conditions). With ARCs/Foils, it seems you are swimming with a very
              > wet and not very buoyant kite.
              >
              > Has anyone had to do the swim far with an ARC? If so, how do they
              do
              > it, especially if you use a low-volume board/wakeboard?

              I did a 45 minute swim one day with a downed 1120 when the wind died
              completely and I arrived at shore with a lot of air in the bag - it
              had only taken on a couple of liters of water.

              Steve T.
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