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[ksurf] Re: ARC 630 vs Naish AR3 7m - Arcs will kick your arse

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  • mans collner
    ... They are NOT safe when they fall out of controll the sky in the hands of a newbie. And simple??? compered to what? not arc anyway! /måns ... -- Måns
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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      >Traig,
      >
      >I am glad you like your ARCS, and I am sure they aren't bad kites. I
      >have flown them, I know a few people who use them and they
      >seem to like them enough.
      >
      >BUT - there is no need spread bullshit propaganda about
      >inflatables. Quite frankly, I couldn't care what people like and use,
      >buts lets not confuse the newbies out there with hype. Look at the
      >bloody title of this message! If thats not propoganda what is? I
      >don;t sell these things, I just use them so I have no commercial
      >interest in any comparisons.
      >
      >If you have a 4 line inflatable, set up and launch is as simple as:
      >
      >1. Pump up your kite. Takes 2 minutes. Use the same technique
      >as pumping up a lilo when you were 5 years old.
      >
      >2. Put your lines on.
      >With a Naish kite, the red lines go to the red connection points,
      >and the blue go the the blue. The black ones go to the black ones.
      >
      >If you can match the colours up, your kite will fly perfectly with no
      >adjustments ever needed. Even if lines are crossed on each side,
      >the kite will fly.
      >
      >3. Put sand on your kite tip.
      >
      >4. Stand in the right position so your kite is at the edge of the
      >window and pull the bar.
      >
      >5. Your kite is now in the air. If you want, you can tinker with your
      >power adjustment, bu you don't need too.
      >
      >Thats it.
      >
      >No help required, no wedgies required and no frigging around with
      >any pullies ropes sleeves etc. Of the 7 inflatables that I have
      >owned, they have all been perfect out of the box.
      >
      >Tell me, what could ever be simpler?
      >
      >Ok so - you need to use a pump. But that is what makes the kite:
      >
      >1. rigid so it is more stable, responsive and predictable
      >2. float for ever
      >
      >And it has badders. If you don't crashing your kites into fences,
      >these never pose a problem.
      >
      >Again, I am not saying these kites are better than arcs, becasue I
      >have no right to do so. I am simply saying that they are as simple,
      >safe and quick to set-up, launch and land as you will ever get.

      They are NOT safe when they fall out of controll the sky in the hands
      of a newbie. And simple??? compered to what? not arc anyway!

      /måns


      >
      >If this info poses a bit of threat because you sell ARCS, then too
      >bad.
      >
      >DT
      >
      >
      >
      >Support your local kitesurf association !
      >
      >
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      >
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      --
      Måns Collner

      Phone:
      +46 (0) 27010578
      +46 (0) 730405242
      Sweden
    • monkeyair
      ... use, ... no ... your ... Glad you are happy with your kites. Inflatos are obviously great kites. Just didn t want the newbies to think that Arcs were not
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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        --- In kitesurf@y..., "David Trewern " <david@d...> wrote:
        > Traig,
        >
        > I am glad you like your ARCS, and I am sure they aren't bad kites. I
        > have flown them, I know a few people who use them and they
        > seem to like them enough.
        >
        > BUT - there is no need spread bullshit propaganda about
        > inflatables. Quite frankly, I couldn't care what people like and
        use,
        > buts lets not confuse the newbies out there with hype. Look at the
        > bloody title of this message! If thats not propoganda what is? I
        > don;t sell these things, I just use them so I have no commercial
        > interest in any comparisons.
        >
        > If you have a 4 line inflatable, set up and launch is as simple as:
        >
        > 1. Pump up your kite. Takes 2 minutes. Use the same technique
        > as pumping up a lilo when you were 5 years old.
        >
        > 2. Put your lines on.
        > With a Naish kite, the red lines go to the red connection points,
        > and the blue go the the blue. The black ones go to the black ones.
        >
        > If you can match the colours up, your kite will fly perfectly with
        no
        > adjustments ever needed. Even if lines are crossed on each side,
        > the kite will fly.
        >
        > 3. Put sand on your kite tip.
        >
        > 4. Stand in the right position so your kite is at the edge of the
        > window and pull the bar.
        >
        > 5. Your kite is now in the air. If you want, you can tinker with
        your
        > power adjustment, bu you don't need too.
        >
        > Thats it.
        >
        > No help required, no wedgies required and no frigging around with
        > any pullies ropes sleeves etc. Of the 7 inflatables that I have
        > owned, they have all been perfect out of the box.
        >
        > Tell me, what could ever be simpler?
        >
        > Ok so - you need to use a pump. But that is what makes the kite:
        >
        > 1. rigid so it is more stable, responsive and predictable
        > 2. float for ever
        >
        > And it has badders. If you don't crashing your kites into fences,
        > these never pose a problem.
        >
        > Again, I am not saying these kites are better than arcs, becasue I
        > have no right to do so. I am simply saying that they are as simple,
        > safe and quick to set-up, launch and land as you will ever get.
        >
        > If this info poses a bit of threat because you sell ARCS, then too
        > bad.
        >
        > DT
        Glad you are happy with your kites. Inflatos are obviously great
        kites. Just didn't want the newbies to think that Arcs were not a
        great option. Don't see it as a threat. Just responded to a few
        questions. I don't care if the airs are filled with arcs or
        inflatables in 10 years. Would just like all the kites to improve. I
        have sent customers to many other shops on this group because they
        wanted a specific inflato or we thought in there high wind situation
        an inflatable was more appropriate. Hung Vu's prospective post
        probably nailed the ranges of application relatively well. Was just
        attempting to point out some of the marketing inequalities brought up
        in Steves post. He is a good sport about pulling his chain like that.
        No insults to any kite company as they all deserve great respect for
        keeping us out on the water. Especially the big names. Good winds.
        Traig
      • gregwalshau
        ... snip ... great ... improve. I ... situation ... just ... up ... that. ... for ... Arcs could be the best kite ever but you Arc guys have to sort out a
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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          --- In kitesurf@y..., "monkeyair" <traigtrumbo@e...> wrote:

          snip

          > > DT
          > Glad you are happy with your kites. Inflatos are obviously
          great
          > kites. Just didn't want the newbies to think that Arcs were not a
          > great option. Don't see it as a threat. Just responded to a few
          > questions. I don't care if the airs are filled with arcs or
          > inflatables in 10 years. Would just like all the kites to
          improve. I
          > have sent customers to many other shops on this group because they
          > wanted a specific inflato or we thought in there high wind
          situation
          > an inflatable was more appropriate. Hung Vu's prospective post
          > probably nailed the ranges of application relatively well. Was
          just
          > attempting to point out some of the marketing inequalities brought
          up
          > in Steves post. He is a good sport about pulling his chain like
          that.
          > No insults to any kite company as they all deserve great respect
          for
          > keeping us out on the water. Especially the big names. Good winds.
          > Traig

          Arcs could be the best kite ever but you Arc guys have to sort out a
          safe and reliable way of launching the Arc for all levels of
          experience and all conditions. There's multiple ways and they're not
          all easy and not all safe. The most commonly touted way of launching
          an Arc (downwind, butt-hole pre-inflation, hooked in, pull the
          brakes) is not safe and not easy.

          Mr Lynn also needs to pull his digit out of his fundamental orifice
          and deliver the lines and bar in a fit state for use. Length set,
          sleeving sewn, decent trim adjuster, no tangle prone knots.

          All inflatables are setup, launched and landed in exactly the same
          way in all conditions. (True the neat nose flop landing is more an
          experienced manouver). This makes them super simple and safe. Luffing
          while in flight and bladder life is another issue and it seems that
          the manufacturers are addressing that.

          Similarly, most decent foils can be launched easily and safely using
          one simple method. Landing elegantly can be a problem but it's still
          relatively safe.

          Greg
        • igsmith
          Here s a concern I have about ARCs and foils in general (coming from a rider of inflatables)...in the last two weeks I have seen it happen three times that
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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            Here's a concern I have about ARCs and foils in general (coming from
            a rider of inflatables)...in the last two weeks I have seen it happen
            three times that riders have broken lines (twice with foils once with
            a wipi). If you are close to shore or in shallow water, no problem
            with either foil or inflatable. BUT if you are far away from land,
            with an inflatable you can wind your lines and then use the kite as a
            sail/life preserver to get you back to shore (in on-shore
            conditions). With ARCs/Foils, it seems you are swimming with a very
            wet and not very buoyant kite.

            Has anyone had to do the swim far with an ARC? If so, how do they do
            it, especially if you use a low-volume board/wakeboard?
          • gregwalshau
            ... from ... happen ... with ... a ... do ... If the kite is floating then just tow it along by the leash. I have done this and it works fine. An Arc or a
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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              --- In kitesurf@y..., "igsmith" <igsmith@y...> wrote:
              > Here's a concern I have about ARCs and foils in general (coming
              from
              > a rider of inflatables)...in the last two weeks I have seen it
              happen
              > three times that riders have broken lines (twice with foils once
              with
              > a wipi). If you are close to shore or in shallow water, no problem
              > with either foil or inflatable. BUT if you are far away from land,
              > with an inflatable you can wind your lines and then use the kite as
              a
              > sail/life preserver to get you back to shore (in on-shore
              > conditions). With ARCs/Foils, it seems you are swimming with a very
              > wet and not very buoyant kite.
              >
              > Has anyone had to do the swim far with an ARC? If so, how do they
              do
              > it, especially if you use a low-volume board/wakeboard?

              If the kite is floating then just tow it along by the leash. I have
              done this and it works fine. An Arc or a high-volume valved foil will
              float even with a big split provided the split is on the waterside.
              The water actually stops all the air leaking out (Truly. I know this
              from experience not theory.) You can just swim along using your
              favourite stroke and tow the board and the kite by the leash.

              Otherwise roll it around the bar into a big sausage, lay it on the
              board and just kick in. Take your time and never go out in offshore
              conditions. Rather than try to swim directly to shore just go with
              the current and the wind and just kick to influence your landing spot.

              Regards

              Greg
            • monkeyair
              ... You nailed it there. Think Mel/Mark and a few other touched on the launching subject in past posts. Experience and to a greater degree, common sense is
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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                --- In kitesurf@y..., "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@b...> wrote:
                > --- In kitesurf@y..., "monkeyair" <traigtrumbo@e...> wrote:
                >
                > snip
                >
                > > >
                > Arcs could be the best kite ever but you Arc guys have to sort out a
                > safe and reliable way of launching the Arc for all levels of
                > experience and all conditions. There's multiple ways and they're not
                > all easy and not all safe. The most commonly touted way of launching
                > an Arc (downwind, butt-hole pre-inflation, hooked in, pull the
                > brakes) is not safe and not easy.
                You nailed it there. Think Mel/Mark and a few other touched on the
                launching subject in past posts. Experience and to a greater degree,
                common sense is paramount. The method you mentioned can be safe and
                easy if properly taught. (correct brake tension of utmost importance)
                The (almost edge of window launch works well as long as the kite is
                inflated well. (John M favored method even with huge stacks of kites
                and rubber chickens) Proper use of the chicken loop and strap is
                something that should be mastered in the lesson prior to teaching this
                though. The only instance where the original launch you mentioned gets
                hairball, is in super strong winds with an untrained newbie. Rear
                lines aren't tight enough/ not enough pre inflation and kite whips up
                to Zenith at Mach 10 and yanks said beginner down the beach and into
                the powerlines. Good for dermabrasion/sea gull food and bad for
                confidence to be sure. We have launched in every wind condition with
                this type of straight downwind launch and not moved more than a foot
                down the beach. The trick is contol of the kite with brake leader
                tension and not allowing it to ever climb more than a few feet at a
                time and never letting it climb above 30 degrees on the horizon with
                out adequate inflation, even in light winds. The edge of window launch
                will probably build in popularity. It is so easy to launch and land
                the arc straight down wind it is probably the most used methods by
                the self taught guys. Most common mistakes. Inadequate inflation and
                relative brake line length from what we have seen. "We" is a couple of
                instructors I work with.
                >
                > Mr Lynn also needs to pull his digit out of his fundamental orifice
                > and deliver the lines and bar in a fit state for use. Length set,
                > sleeving sewn, decent trim adjuster, no tangle prone knots.
                Wouldn't that be nice. They offer all the stuff on the brochure.
                Just need to get it all together. Not sure if it is actually him or
                his marketing guys in charge of that after the actual kite design/R@D/
                building. It is hard to bag on PL though. I do have that cardboard
                cut out of PL. Steve warned me that it might be a fake, inferior
                cardboard picture of his stunt double. Come to think of it, the guy in
                my cardboard cut out looks a lot like Robin Williams. But he is
                wearing the goofy hat. The guy ROCKS!! PL got Robin Williams to pose
                for him..Unreal Robin Williams as the comedic kite designers monologue
                double. That explains the PL news letters.
                >
                > All inflatables are setup, launched and landed in exactly the same
                > way in all conditions. (True the neat nose flop landing is more an
                > experienced manouver). This makes them super simple and safe.
                Luffing
                > while in flight and bladder life is another issue and it seems that
                > the manufacturers are addressing that.
                >
                > Similarly, most decent foils can be launched easily and safely using
                > one simple method. Landing elegantly can be a problem but it's still
                > relatively safe.
                Yeah, the third line drop or fold in half form of foil landing
                (wallend/mossi) is quite clever. The brake the kite down on the back
                lines is very easy on an arc though. Are you refering to the launch
                of the foils, pre inflated at the edge of the window? Cause straight
                down wind launching with any foil is much more difficult than a
                properly braked arc in my experience. A four lined Advance Io with
                adequate brake tension allowed a semi slow launch as did the Flysurfer
                with the brakes all the way on, but all the two and three line set ups
                on the Wallend, Mosquittos, Guns, Blades, Waterfoils and Jo Jos
                straight down wind were sprint on the sand maneuvers with out adequate
                training. We will work on more commonality between areas in teaching
                procedures for arc launch and landings. The best would be to teach
                every method to every student. Thanks Greg. Have Fun. Traig.
                >
                > Greg
              • theflyingtinman
                ... from ... happen ... with ... a ... do ... I did a 45 minute swim one day with a downed 1120 when the wind died completely and I arrived at shore with a lot
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 2, 2002
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                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "igsmith" <igsmith@y...> wrote:
                  > Here's a concern I have about ARCs and foils in general (coming
                  from
                  > a rider of inflatables)...in the last two weeks I have seen it
                  happen
                  > three times that riders have broken lines (twice with foils once
                  with
                  > a wipi). If you are close to shore or in shallow water, no problem
                  > with either foil or inflatable. BUT if you are far away from land,
                  > with an inflatable you can wind your lines and then use the kite as
                  a
                  > sail/life preserver to get you back to shore (in on-shore
                  > conditions). With ARCs/Foils, it seems you are swimming with a very
                  > wet and not very buoyant kite.
                  >
                  > Has anyone had to do the swim far with an ARC? If so, how do they
                  do
                  > it, especially if you use a low-volume board/wakeboard?

                  I did a 45 minute swim one day with a downed 1120 when the wind died
                  completely and I arrived at shore with a lot of air in the bag - it
                  had only taken on a couple of liters of water.

                  Steve T.
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