[ksurf] Re: ARC 630 vs Naish AR3 7m - Arcs will kick your arse!
- Thought I'd add my tuppence worth to this interesting bout between
Steve and Traig...
Actions speak louder than words, or so 'they' say. Six months ago
kitesurfing was just starting to happen here and a few inflato kites
were seen at the beaches after a certain Mr Naish dropped by to do a
demo. Today, only two people out of about ten are still using
inflatables, the rest have changed to Arcs and the trend looks set to
continue. I was first in this area to be different and get an Arc,
and I managed to learn on it by myself and with help from this
forum. One day I lent my kite to a relatively experienced kiter in
need of a little refreshment, and that was that- almost everyone who
kitesurfs here regularly has bought at least two since. Purely from
first hand experience and word of mouth, although not from me 'cos I
don't speak Japanese too well. Nobody has had any trouble setting up
their gear and nobody has trashed their kites yet (except for me
ripping my first one on some sharp coral, which I managed to patch up
in about, ehh, 2 minutes?)
There are no official kite dealers here either, so all kites had to
be mail ordered from elsewhere.
Interestingly enough, I returned from a trip to New Caledonia a short
time ago and by far the majority of kiters there were on Naish ARX's
and Manolo boards. Manolo is the local board shaper and sole Naish
dealer. Funny to see different trends in different places, dealers
for sure have a big influence on what people buy and fly. Anyone
else notice this?
- Here in Cape Town more than 90% of the kites are inflatables.
It also seems as if most beginners prefer to start out on inflatables, and
my perception is that ARCs were pretty big a couple of months ago, and that
the majority of kites out there is inflatables.
To me it looks as if inflatables is the way that the sport is going...
----- Original Message -----
From: "kujira99jp" <kujira99@...>
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 3:36 PM
Subject: [ksurf] Re: ARC 630 vs Naish AR3 7m - Arcs will kick your arse!
> Thought I'd add my tuppence worth to this interesting bout between
> Steve and Traig...
> Actions speak louder than words, or so 'they' say. Six months ago
> kitesurfing was just starting to happen here and a few inflato kites
> were seen at the beaches after a certain Mr Naish dropped by to do a
> demo. Today, only two people out of about ten are still using
> inflatables, the rest have changed to Arcs and the trend looks set to
> continue. I was first in this area to be different and get an Arc,
> and I managed to learn on it by myself and with help from this
> forum. One day I lent my kite to a relatively experienced kiter in
> need of a little refreshment, and that was that- almost everyone who
> kitesurfs here regularly has bought at least two since. Purely from
> first hand experience and word of mouth, although not from me 'cos I
> don't speak Japanese too well. Nobody has had any trouble setting up
> their gear and nobody has trashed their kites yet (except for me
> ripping my first one on some sharp coral, which I managed to patch up
> in about, ehh, 2 minutes?)
> There are no official kite dealers here either, so all kites had to
> be mail ordered from elsewhere.
> Interestingly enough, I returned from a trip to New Caledonia a short
> time ago and by far the majority of kiters there were on Naish ARX's
> and Manolo boards. Manolo is the local board shaper and sole Naish
> dealer. Funny to see different trends in different places, dealers
> for sure have a big influence on what people buy and fly. Anyone
> else notice this?
> Cheers, Jason.
> Support your local kitesurf association !
> <<<to unsubscribe send a message to firstname.lastname@example.org>>>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
- Well Traig
That was very amusing and insightful!! :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Couple of things though.
Amex are working on a mouthswipe system for CC's.
Who is distributing these unauthorised FAKE and INFERIOR cardboard cutouts
of me and Mr Lynn?
They must be fake, all the special ones we make only allow the cutout to
piss on whoever is looking.
Peter would never piss on me, even if I was on fire!
I gotta go, off to the Nationals, no more drivel from me for a few days -
126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
* -----Original Message-----
* From: monkeyair [mailto:traigtrumbo@...]
* Sent: Tuesday, 1 January 2002 2:55
* To: email@example.com
* Subject: [ksurf] Re: ARC 630 vs Naish AR3 7m - Arcs will kick your arse!
* --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
* > G'day Monkeymouth
* > If you take out the k in monkeymouth...........
* That is a great idea but won't work for credit cards. Making exact
* change in ones mouth is probably only something mastered by some
* exuberant young ladies in Indonesia. Maybe a swipe strip for credit
* cards. Some other action for your boxers mate. Cards won't read with
* corn on them though.
* > I think your mind has been secretly tapped, there are coded
* > microdots on all Peter Lynn products, the infection manifests
* differently in
* > people, it seems to make some people, and you have definitely
* > you have a severe infection, spout profusely about how the arc is
* really a
* > nice kite, and other very generous and kind things regarding the man
* > himself. The effect of years of reinfection, personally, is
* extremely high
* > tolerance to everything, generally and specifically!
* > It is a nice kite!
* Thank god Steve!! You said it. I was told you needed to be
* reinfected with the PL Bug. My appologies. Sometimes initial loading
* dose isn't adequate and a sea urchin to ones inflato is needed. Now
* if we can just get rid of that nasty erythematous Naish rash that just
* reapeared on your skin. Thought you cleared that up with Preperation
* Whipi last time. A bit of desquamashun got rid of the Wipi vaso
* cashilation it appears. The 1 percent Slingshod cortagreen offered
* to you at an insane shelf price certainly didn't shake the initial
* Naish dermatitis. Perhaps that new Rhino virus will cause a
* generously inflamed green excuse membrane.
* >nn products, or that shops/people which specialise in them
* > they simply make more money on these products, has anything to do
* with the
* > instant response there always is whenever people perceive that
* > negative has been said about the Arc?
* The profit margin on inflatables is huge compared to arcs. You can
* admit it. It is ok. We all know Steve ..Stand up. This is why our
* local Wake board shop quit selling arcs.( Incidentaly, They didn't
* know anything about kite surfing but became a full Wipika and Naish
* distributor in a week. Just need a store front to sell these brands.)
* No profit margin for him to be selling the arc. He told me I could
* keep my arc business and he wouldn't even try to compete. Big of him
* really. He had to pay for the new truck and range rover. Nothing wrong
* with that. Tried to infect him with the PL infectious spittle while
* talking dots but his greed for green was just way to big. The Grinch
* needed to sell the Whoos Wippis. A cerebral money hemorage removed
* any chance of accountability to the consumer. When you start only
* selling to the rich, that is all you know. Of course all products
* should be sold AT THEIR TRUE MERIT..Sure you didn't initialy meet your
* girlfriend with a roll of quarters to augment the wedding bits. No!
* false marketing. Let them see what they are going to get...Point
* > It does take much grey matter to realise how much some US dealers
* are making
* > on PL products, when compared to values here and around the world.
* Glad you mention that Steve. Nice way to pull some possible arc sales
* that way. BRAVO I believe my arc prices are competitive with yours
* (Better?) and I have to pay all the extra shipping, taxes, etc. So
* once again you are the business master. The higher prices many want to
* charge for North American arcs are mandated by a certain North A
* distributor to be in some sort of balance with the inflatos though
* the arcs recieve an incredibly small part of the advertising dollar
* and could not compete unless the advertising board was leveled. It
* would make sense to sell them for less over here though they certainly
* take one hell of allot more to make than an inflato. This is why I
* sell at such a reasoanable rate. PLUG,PLUG,PLUG. (thank you Steve.Your
* Buss. Lessons starting to pay off) I think PL would like to see more
* people trying his kites than a very few actually trying to make (still
* sub inflato profits on them over here.) With ninety percent of the
* advertising going to the inflatbles and the profits pushing the shops
* to sell them instead of all else, an unrealisticaly low price is
* unfortunately bad for my bottom line. But I continue to do it as with
* the other foils/ inflatos we have sold. We teach on arcs, which is
* admitedly the best catch of all for any newbie. I am not sponsored by
* the company as the inflato companies sponsor any school. If you are
* learning and try an arc. Well I have a mess of one time used Naishes
* here from just that newbie experience. The reason we sell so many is
* because I figured if any bloke could look on the net and get
* something from over seas they would so I offer personal local service
* and a Naish brain scan/ PL infection at no extra charge.
* Resistance to the PL pod is futile. Join us Steve,,,Join Us...
* There is a large pseudo Steve pod next to your bed. You remember the
* movie, the Stephord Wives don't you?
* Seriously though. Realize you have been along since the first
* dinasaur fart and sewed Emperor Ming his first dragon kite. You da
* man. Monitary commitments of course change us. You have every right
* to make a good margin on your products like any other retailer. I am
* honestly stoked you are doing so well with your stores Steve and would
* be even happier if eventually you have a drive through in each and
* ever one of them. A kid in the window with a headset
* saying..Supersize that Naish sir? Great, would you like to bend over
* for that sir, or just give me all the bank numbers now? No change.
* Drive on through.
* You are my kite marketing hero. You almost had me selling Wipis
* till you just bailed on them. Figured you had to know what you were
* talking about as their number one fan. The area distributor told me
* how much I could make just selling them for the local shop rather than
* selling arcs. Steve, I have a large cardboard cutout of you on the
* wall. Unfortunately it is being peed on by the larger cardboard image
* of your "pal" PL. Darn microdot hero worship with both you guys
* again. Snorting inlatable bladder repair glue might help rid my brain
* of this PL worship. The Steve marketing super hero doll they sell in
* the States has you represented in some very strange bat wing Naish ARX
* cape that must be changed every few months but doesn't better in
* performance. Looks cool though. PL is my kite hero and you are my
* business/kite hero. Capitalism is great till it gets in the way of
* people getting an unshaded opinion. That was my point. Yes, at least
* this time I had one.
* To answer the question about why evey one jumps on you Steve. You
* allways slip a neg arc comment in posts and the plus to the inflatos.
* You probably truly believe the stuff so it certainly is moral
* enough. A new guy asks about kites...You say Arc ok but...Buy an
* inflato. CaChing. You can here the cash register across the ocean.
* It is a subtle but consistent thread in your posts. (Not the cash
* register that was a joke. Don't know what cc scanners sound like) You
* offer so much good info it is gemneraly easily ignored. I have many
* guys selling inflatos for arcs. So our experience just differs.
* The difficult part is to get either group to try anything they are not
* used to or should I say taught on. As I sell primarily arcs my posts
* must sound very biased as well. Well, Deranged and biased,,,But biased
* non the less. No one who sells "all kites" really does if they sell
* primarily one type of kite. Some shops admitedly do that. I don't
* think you consciously would.
* I think the Robby Naish bug has a much higher infection rate do to
* over paid pimps and the holes intentionally put in the indoctrination
* rubber. This is for advertising pathologist to ponder. You had no
* choice in the matter. It was biology and we still love you. Once
* again, think you are a great asset to the kitesurfing comunity Steve.
* No offense at all meant. You do deserve to make a living doing it.
* Just not all off one really, really large kite. It is an idea I was
* toying with. Wadya think? 675 meters. Everyone on the globe chips in
* a penny. Darn. Back to marketing school. Good new year winds. Traig
* PS. Who is this Pufta guy and who does he ride for? He made a few
* good points. Amazing he could get sponsorship with that name. It is
* a new world though...Yikes!! If you made it through this you are
* taking more Vikadin than I am. Oops the knee just exploded got to go.
* > Cya and
* > Goodwinds
* > Steve McCormack
* > http://www.kitepower.com.au
* > mailto:sydney@k...
* > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
* > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
* > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
* > mailto:geelong@k...
* > * -----Original Message-----
* > * From: monkeyair [mailto:traigtrumbo@e...]
* > * Sent: Tuesday, 1 January 2002 10:53
* > * To: kitesurf@y...
* > * Subject: [ksurf] Re: ARC 630 vs Naish AR3 7m - Arcs will kick your
* > *
* > *
* > * --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
* > * > G'day Poofykiter
* > * >
* > * > Anyone with at least half of a chromosome that regulates clear
* > * thinking, can
* > * > deduce that Arcs are harder/more complex to set-up and fly, just
* > * look at the
* > * > endless "please help me" threads, that appear on this and all
* > * other
* > * > newsgroups that I know of.
* > * > Consider the unfortunate fellow I met yesterday, English
* > * > ex-windsurfer, goes to shop in UK, gets sold a 630 Arc (he
* > * approx
* > * > 90kg), with 90kg and 170kg lines and a Naish R3 bar, minus the
* > * rubber ends
* > * > and with the leaders just tied through the holes in the ends of
* > * these bars.
* > * > Apart from the fact that all the lines were uneven -
* > * the leash
* > * > was tied with several overhand knots to a front line, etc, etc.
* > * > He had been very lucky not to hurt himself or someone else, and
* > * really
* > * Hi Steve and Puffy kite guy.
* > * Really appreciate your info to the group generally Steve...BUTTT..
* > * Well, This is targeted at you but responds to some of your
* > * assertions...
* > * Sick and tired of hype and had to have a Happy New Year purge.
* > * The arc is FAR easier to set up and fly than an inflato four line.
* > * is not even close. We set up side by side every day with students.
* > * single lesson will teach any newbie this. This is when the ARC is
* > * up properly by someone who knows the kite and is not just trying
* > * throw it out on some body for a quick sale. I have taught lessons
* > * the original AR5s, AR 3.5s etc. An arc is a breese to start near
* > * edge of the window as well as long as it is filled. No kite is
* > * stable or easier to master than the ARC. No pumping and no
* > * The questions regarding the arc on the group have been of a
* > * can I make it even better" nature or the unlucky ones who bought
* > * kite from the waterbed/ kitesurf warehouse from some 15 year old
* > * with a pierced tongue and baggy pants with one day on an
* > * After having been brainwashed by a thousand headbang soundtrack
* > * inflato vids he never even took the time to learn to use anything
* > * his hand in a pumping motion.
* > * Daily, Wipikas and Naishes barf up their bladders (OFTEN on the
* > * first day of use.) Arcs don't do this. I have sold arcs from day
* > * and have only seen TWO broken spars. I stepped on one of them
* > * doing an idiot sand balancing maneuver. Proper set up is
* > * A porsche doesn't work well with out a steering wheel. A local
* > * Power boat/new inflato shop thought they could make a quick buck
* > * of arcs after I had popularized them localy and were passing them
* > * with everything from Q bars to tiny Wipika bars for the 1120. They
* > * destroyed the rep of the Waterfoil the same way.
* > * The information is out there to sell a properly set up arc to any
* > * customer by a salesman who isn't just concerned about being able
* > * toss an inflato out the door quicker and make WAY more profit with
* > * time of his own spent on the set up for a customer. No one gets a
* > * kite from me unless they know how to set it up and if they are not
* > * already proficient, are getting a lesson. A kite which fills
* > * with air is far easier in set up than one that has 7 chambers that
* > * need to be independently pumped up and sealed. Just make sure the
* > * is filled prior to launch...Now how hard was that. PLEEAAASE!!!
* > * Daily, some clown will show up with a new Airblast or duplicate
* > * pump up of a dozen other brands and have the lines twisted,
* > * He will be just slamming the kite into the beach in the typical
* > * missle luff inherent to inflatos do to the demanding level of
* > * necessary for that kite or because precise line length adjustment
* > * needed to keep these inflatos in the air. Of the last 40 posts,
* > * many were questions about proper front to rear line tension for an
* > * iflato?
* > * Lets get real here and not just be sales people ok? Set it up
* > * properly and these kites all work well. Funny how everyone is
* > * on the (ultimate Wipi) now. (Bridles? NO Bridles? More front line
* > * tension? Less front line? More leading edge pressure? Less
* > * edge pressure?) More variables translates to more difficult set
* > * Do the math. Meanwhile a bunch of poor saps who were told they
* > * learn on an airblast are suffering. At least some unscrupulus
* > * made some money on them. Not you Steve. The other unscrupulous
* > * chicken banging,puppy beating guy with the crack house and
* > * prostitution chain who hates children and refuses dying land mine
* > * crippled mothers jello. (Sally Struthers line I think)
* > * Sure, PL could make it a hell of a lot easier supplying kites
* > * set up with lines pre measured with a good safety leash. I get
* > * with all the proper pieces there and it would be no harder to set
* > * than a four line sled but go the extra step to get it ready for a
* > * customer. It doesn't take all that long and not very many synapses
* > * must fire to figure out how to slide the sleeves and re-knot them.
* > * do consider the lowest common denominator. He has a two line
* > * and is doing a bong load on the beach waiting for the wind to blow
* > * strong enough to ever get on the water locally. Believe that once
* > * said you spent the time to set up the arcs properly. So what's
* > * problem. Pl offers all the correct components. All you have to
* do is
* > * put them together. It is that easy.
* > * In my experience, a properly set up arc is the best learning to
* > * advanced tool out there. Especially with the greater range etc of
* > * newer models. A two line low ar inflato sled means a kite that
* > * water start straight down wind and will soon need to modified to
* > * lines or replace in our light wind environment. Most of the world
* > * light wind. Even Columbus got screwed by light wind. A little
* > * more wind and maybe it wouldn't be only a Casino in Vegas named
* > * a Native American tribe.
* > * Inlatos are starting to duplicate arc features. Wide tips, tip
* > * spars, to name a few. I don't make didly money selling these
* > * but I have one hell of a lot of happy customers because I sold and
* > * taught them on what works not on what the local inflato
* > * told me I could make the most money on. At this point a (divine
* > * pure white beam of light comes through the window and frys my
* > * retinas. Divine macular degeneration, cool. The national anthem
* > * in the backround and Ralph Nader spins in his grave.
* > * The sponsored hot guy was certainly not sponsored by PL as PL
* > * doesn't pay anyone to fly his kites. The arcs have gained
* > * purley by public experience and not monstrous advertising dollars.
* > * Even Mel aquiesed and finaly found the arc this year and has been
* > * enough to let those of us who have been using it for the last few
* > * years know how it actually works and is ok to use after all. The
* > * inflato market is a bit scared now that the obvious, most stable
* > * learning tool is in fact something they don't market. Time to stop
* > * just advertising what they pay the pros to be on and start
* > * the largest sales demographic. The new guy.. OOPS!! ..To late
* > * The arc is already there and it costs half as much.
* > * Have you thought about selling water beds Steve? You know they
* > * them now with 12 seperate compartments that must be filled
* > * individualy. They give you a pump and everything. You could talk
* > * sheet when ever you like. No offense bud, you do a great service.
* > * may sell inflatos as well again but only to experienced flyers.
* > * trying to let newbies see a tiny bit of the force Darth. Happy
* > * year everyone. Traig
* > * >
* > * > Cya and
* > * > Goodwinds
* > * > Steve McCormack
* > * > http://www.kitepower.com.au
* > * > mailto:sydney@k...
* > * > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
* > * > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
* > * > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
* > * > mailto:geelong@k...
* > * >
* > * > * -----Original Message-----
* > * > * From: kitepoof [mailto:kitesurfa@h...]
* > * > * Sent: Monday, 31 December 2001 4:31
* > * > * To: kitesurf@y...
* > * > * Subject: [ksurf] Re: ARC 630 vs Naish AR3 7m - Arc kicks arse!
* > * > *
* > * > *
* > * > * Hi Dude, I've been an anonymous reader on this site for
* > * six
* > * > * months and today I decided to register and reply after reading
* > * > * drivel from that anal probing, monkey raping, pube flossing
* > * all
* > * > * from kitepower. Once again Steve seems to be regurgitating
* > * > * bollocks he heard from one of his chronies with commercial
* > * > * interests. And before he replies to me asking about my
* > * "credentials"
* > * > * and sprouting his own worldly wonders I will just say I'm a
* > * > * sponsered rider and have been for ten months.
* > * > * Both kites are good higher wind range kites but to say the Arc
* > * > * harder to set up is absolute ball sweat. Any fully
* > * > * individual could fly an arc. The only trick is launching
* > * with
* > * > * experience becomes O.K. Depower on the Arc is as good if not
* > * better
* > * > * than the inflatable if tuned properly. I'm going to fly now,
* > * haven't
* > * > * got time to shoot the piss with morons like Mr Power.
* > * > *
* > * > * Out.
* > * > *
* > * > *
* > * > * Support your local kitesurf association !
* > * > *
* > * > *
* > * > * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to
* > * > *
* > * > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
* > * http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
* > * > *
* > * > *
* > *
* > *
* > * Support your local kitesurf association !
* > *
* > *
* > * <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@e...>>>
* > *
* > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
* > *
* > *
* Support your local kitesurf association !
* <<<to unsubscribe send a message to firstname.lastname@example.org>>>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
- You just have to look at all of the F-One foils for sale from people
on the east coast of the US to see that trend...
> Funny to see different trends in different places, dealers
> for sure have a big influence on what people buy and fly. Anyone
> else notice this?
> Cheers, Jason.