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Re: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!

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  • Dwight & Jacky
    I don t think anybody can know 100% that this new material will hold up two years in the future. It sounds like the same laminated material we had this year,
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 1, 2001
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      I don't think anybody can know 100% that this new material will hold up two years in the future. It
      sounds like the same laminated material we had this year, but processed in a new way that they say
      will stop the problems. If they are right then they will make everybody buying Dacron kites, that
      may go soft and lose their shape in a few years, look foolish. On the other hand I don't know
      anybody that wants a laminated kite next year. Everybody on the beach is excited over the stiff and
      durable looking Dacron kites and nobody wants to hear about laminated stuff anymore. Naish claims
      staying with laminated material will keep their kite light and they fly better when light. I agree
      with that, but many others don't care. Look how popular the heavy RRD kites are. People want durable
      kites and don't always notice how it affects flight. Naish is taking a bold step being the only one
      staying with what could be the next great material that nobody wants to buy.

      Just my 2 cents on the material mess were in.

      Dwight


      > Hi
      >
      > Does anyone knows if the new leading edge fabric from Naish
      > (Polyfuse) is as good as they say in theirs Tech Sheet? You can see
      > it on www.kiteboarding.be .
      >
      > They are saying that this new material (used on both Aero and Virus)
      > is stronger and stiffer than Dacron. Is this the usual "comercial
      > crap" or does it really have some advantages?
      >
      > Good winds 4UALL
      > Carlos
    • Paul Coutinho
      Well in these sort of things there is always a compromise. Performance over durability or vice versa. In anycase, the worse bit is when you pay and don´t get
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 2001
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        Well in these sort of things there is always a compromise.
        Performance over durability or vice versa.
        In anycase, the worse bit is when you pay and don´t get your moneys worth.
        Manufactures are very prone to publishing the kites specs as a market scheme
        but I´ve never seen
        any brand say:
        "Our kite will last at least X number of years"
        or
        "This kite is garantied to last so many hours of use"
        altough addressing something like that is difficult (there are some many
        variables... use, wind strentgh, users weight and so on) that pinning it
        down would be close to impossible but a minimum should be offered. After all
        most products are sold with some sort of time use indication for warranty.

        Paul


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Dwight & Jacky" <fishersfort@...>
        To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 1:08 AM
        Subject: Re: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!


        > I don't think anybody can know 100% that this new material will hold up
        two years in the future. It
        > sounds like the same laminated material we had this year, but processed in
        a new way that they say
        > will stop the problems. If they are right then they will make everybody
        buying Dacron kites, that
        > may go soft and lose their shape in a few years, look foolish. On the
        other hand I don't know
        > anybody that wants a laminated kite next year. Everybody on the beach is
        excited over the stiff and
        > durable looking Dacron kites and nobody wants to hear about laminated
        stuff anymore. Naish claims
        > staying with laminated material will keep their kite light and they fly
        better when light. I agree
        > with that, but many others don't care. Look how popular the heavy RRD
        kites are. People want durable
        > kites and don't always notice how it affects flight. Naish is taking a
        bold step being the only one
        > staying with what could be the next great material that nobody wants to
        buy.
        >
        > Just my 2 cents on the material mess were in.
        >
        > Dwight
        >
        >
        > > Hi
        > >
        > > Does anyone knows if the new leading edge fabric from Naish
        > > (Polyfuse) is as good as they say in theirs Tech Sheet? You can see
        > > it on www.kiteboarding.be .
        > >
        > > They are saying that this new material (used on both Aero and Virus)
        > > is stronger and stiffer than Dacron. Is this the usual "comercial
        > > crap" or does it really have some advantages?
        > >
        > > Good winds 4UALL
        > > Carlos
        >
        >
        >
        > Support your local kitesurf association !
        >
        >
        > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
      • Suntrax
        Have a 10m Aero in my hand and the Polyfuse looks and feels great, very light, taffeta on the outside and mat shiny on the inside, I know the membrane is glued
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 2, 2001
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          Have a 10m Aero in my hand and the Polyfuse looks and feels great, very
          light, taffeta on the outside and mat shiny on the inside, I know the
          membrane is glued but it almost looks like it has been sprayed on, doesn't
          LOOK like it could possibly delaminate, very flexible.
          Graphics look great!. Carbon bar with a gradual radiused hole in the NYLON,
          through bar, insert, if this solves the wear problem this is the bar of the
          future!
          Anyway we are off to the beach to do the Capetown Aero launch, S 15-20knts
          forecast!

          Brian

          Brian Wilson
          Suntrax
          Tel/fax 027 21 5560044
          cell; 0824656696
          www.suntrax.co.za

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Kitepower <kitepower@...>
          To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 4:39 AM
          Subject: RE: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!


          > It is carefully worded technobabble IMO!! ;-))
          > Dacron is a trade name owned by DuPont I think, it is a cloth made from
          > polyester fibres.
          > The taffeta base material the tech sheet babbles about is polyester too,
          but
          > it is being laminated to a polyester membrane, so there is still potential
          > for delamming.
          > It is true some "dacron" cloths are stiffened with a resin which breaks
          > down, but there has also been a cloth available for several years that is
          > heat bonded and flattened, which I think is what is being used in the
          North,
          > Slingshot, Airush kites.
          > I still think that Naish do a lot of research and development testing and
          > the cloth is most likely a huge improvement over the cchnobabble
          > current material.
          > I really dislike badly researched technobabble, especially when they say
          bad
          > things about a product and in fact their product is made for the same base
          > material.
          >
          > Cya and
          > Goodwinds
          > Steve McCormack
          > http://www.kitepower.com.au
          > mailto:sydney@...
          > Open 7 days
          > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
          > Phone +61293157894
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: c_batalha@... [mailto:c_batalha@...]
          > Sent: 02 December, 2001 10:32 AM
          > To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!
          >
          >
          > Hi
          >
          > Does anyone knows if the new leading edge fabric from Naish
          > (Polyfuse) is as good as they say in theirs Tech Sheet? You can see
          > it on www.kiteboarding.be .
          >
          > They are saying that this new material (used on both Aero and Virus)
          > is stronger and stiffer than Dacron. Is this the usual "comercial
          > crap" or does it really have some advantages?
          >
          > Good winds 4UALL
          > Carlos
          >
          >
          >
          > Support your local kitesurf association !
          >
          >
          > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          > Support your local kitesurf association !
          >
          >
          > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • Kitepower
          Any chance of posting some close up piccies Brian? Cya and Goodwinds Steve McCormack http://www.kitepower.com.au mailto:sydney@kitepower.com.au 126 Beach St,
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 2, 2001
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            Any chance of posting some close up piccies Brian?

            Cya and
            Goodwinds
            Steve McCormack
            http://www.kitepower.com.au
            mailto:sydney@...
            126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
            Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
            Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
            mailto:geelong@...

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Suntrax [mailto:Suntrax@...]
            Sent: Sunday, 2 December 2001 7:26
            To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!


            Have a 10m Aero in my hand and the Polyfuse looks and feels great, very
            light, taffeta on the outside and mat shiny on the inside, I know the
            membrane is glued but it almost looks like it has been sprayed on, doesn't
            LOOK like it could possibly delaminate, very flexible.
            Graphics look great!. Carbon bar with a gradual radiused hole in the NYLON,
            through bar, insert, if this solves the wear problem this is the bar of the
            future!
            Anyway we are off to the beach to do the Capetown Aero launch, S 15-20knts
            forecast!

            Brian

            Brian Wilson
            Suntrax
            Tel/fax 027 21 5560044
            cell; 0824656696
            www.suntrax.co.za

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Kitepower <kitepower@...>
            To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 4:39 AM
            Subject: RE: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!


            > It is carefully worded technobabble IMO!! ;-))
            > Dacron is a trade name owned by DuPont I think, it is a cloth made from
            > polyester fibres.
            > The taffeta base material the tech sheet babbles about is polyester too,
            but
            > it is being laminated to a polyester membrane, so there is still potential
            > for delamming.
            > It is true some "dacron" cloths are stiffened with a resin which breaks
            > down, but there has also been a cloth available for several years that is
            > heat bonded and flattened, which I think is what is being used in the
            North,
            > Slingshot, Airush kites.
            > I still think that Naish do a lot of research and development testing and
            > the cloth is most likely a huge improvement over the cchnobabble
            > current material.
            > I really dislike badly researched technobabble, especially when they say
            bad
            > things about a product and in fact their product is made for the same base
            > material.
            >
            > Cya and
            > Goodwinds
            > Steve McCormack
            > http://www.kitepower.com.au
            > mailto:sydney@...
            > Open 7 days
            > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
            > Phone +61293157894
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: c_batalha@... [mailto:c_batalha@...]
            > Sent: 02 December, 2001 10:32 AM
            > To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!
            >
            >
            > Hi
            >
            > Does anyone knows if the new leading edge fabric from Naish
            > (Polyfuse) is as good as they say in theirs Tech Sheet? You can see
            > it on www.kiteboarding.be .
            >
            > They are saying that this new material (used on both Aero and Virus)
            > is stronger and stiffer than Dacron. Is this the usual "comercial
            > crap" or does it really have some advantages?
            >
            > Good winds 4UALL
            > Carlos
            >
            >
            >
            > Support your local kitesurf association !
            >
            >
            > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            > Support your local kitesurf association !
            >
            >
            > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >


            Support your local kitesurf association !


            <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Suntrax
            This is the best we have for now http://www.windfreak.com/cswc/aero/. Good winds brian Brian Wilson Suntrax Tel/fax 027 21 5560044 cell; 0824656696
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 3, 2001
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              This is the best we have for now http://www.windfreak.com/cswc/aero/.

              Good winds

              brian

              Brian Wilson
              Suntrax
              Tel/fax 027 21 5560044
              cell; 0824656696
              www.suntrax.co.za

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Kitepower <kitepower@...>
              To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:18 AM
              Subject: RE: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!


              > Any chance of posting some close up piccies Brian?
              >
              > Cya and
              > Goodwinds
              > Steve McCormack
              > http://www.kitepower.com.au
              > mailto:sydney@...
              > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
              > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
              > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
              > mailto:geelong@...
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Suntrax [mailto:Suntrax@...]
              > Sent: Sunday, 2 December 2001 7:26
              > To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!
              >
              >
              > Have a 10m Aero in my hand and the Polyfuse looks and feels great, very
              > light, taffeta on the outside and mat shiny on the inside, I know the
              > membrane is glued but it almost looks like it has been sprayed on, doesn't
              > LOOK like it could possibly delaminate, very flexible.
              > Graphics look great!. Carbon bar with a gradual radiused hole in the
              NYLON,
              > through bar, insert, if this solves the wear problem this is the bar of
              the
              > future!
              > Anyway we are off to the beach to do the Capetown Aero launch, S 15-20knts
              > forecast!
              >
              > Brian
              >
              > Brian Wilson
              > Suntrax
              > Tel/fax 027 21 5560044
              > cell; 0824656696
              > www.suntrax.co.za
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Kitepower <kitepower@...>
              > To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 4:39 AM
              > Subject: RE: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!
              >
              >
              > > It is carefully worded technobabble IMO!! ;-))
              > > Dacron is a trade name owned by DuPont I think, it is a cloth made from
              > > polyester fibres.
              > > The taffeta base material the tech sheet babbles about is polyester too,
              > but
              > > it is being laminated to a polyester membrane, so there is still
              potential
              > > for delamming.
              > > It is true some "dacron" cloths are stiffened with a resin which breaks
              > > down, but there has also been a cloth available for several years that
              is
              > > heat bonded and flattened, which I think is what is being used in the
              > North,
              > > Slingshot, Airush kites.
              > > I still think that Naish do a lot of research and development testing
              and
              > > the cloth is most likely a huge improvement over the cchnobabble
              > > current material.
              > > I really dislike badly researched technobabble, especially when they say
              > bad
              > > things about a product and in fact their product is made for the same
              base
              > > material.
              > >
              > > Cya and
              > > Goodwinds
              > > Steve McCormack
              > > http://www.kitepower.com.au
              > > mailto:sydney@...
              > > Open 7 days
              > > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
              > > Phone +61293157894
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: c_batalha@... [mailto:c_batalha@...]
              > > Sent: 02 December, 2001 10:32 AM
              > > To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi
              > >
              > > Does anyone knows if the new leading edge fabric from Naish
              > > (Polyfuse) is as good as they say in theirs Tech Sheet? You can see
              > > it on www.kiteboarding.be .
              > >
              > > They are saying that this new material (used on both Aero and Virus)
              > > is stronger and stiffer than Dacron. Is this the usual "comercial
              > > crap" or does it really have some advantages?
              > >
              > > Good winds 4UALL
              > > Carlos
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Support your local kitesurf association !
              > >
              > >
              > > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Support your local kitesurf association !
              > >
              > >
              > > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > Support your local kitesurf association !
              >
              >
              > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              > Support your local kitesurf association !
              >
              >
              > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • Robin Zwissler
              Brian, could you please make a picture of the bar? Robin http://www.kite-surf.com
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 3, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Brian, could you please make a picture of the bar?

                Robin
                http://www.kite-surf.com
              • c_batalha@clix.pt
                Man.... It s damm ugly!! ;) I would rather see the old AR5 graphics! But, as usual, this is a personal opinion... CB ... http://www.windfreak.com/cswc/aero/.
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 3, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  Man....

                  It's damm ugly!! ;) I would rather see the old AR5 graphics!

                  But, as usual, this is a personal opinion...

                  CB

                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "Suntrax" <Suntrax@i...> wrote:
                  > This is the best we have for now
                  http://www.windfreak.com/cswc/aero/.
                  >
                  > Good winds
                  >
                  > brian
                  >
                  > Brian Wilson
                  > Suntrax
                  > Tel/fax 027 21 5560044
                  > cell; 0824656696
                  > www.suntrax.co.za
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Kitepower <kitepower@b...>
                  > To: <kitesurf@y...>
                  > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:18 AM
                  > Subject: RE: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!
                  >
                  >
                  > > Any chance of posting some close up piccies Brian?
                  > >
                  > > Cya and
                  > > Goodwinds
                  > > Steve McCormack
                  > > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                  > > mailto:sydney@k...
                  > > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                  > > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                  > > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                  > > mailto:geelong@k...
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Suntrax [mailto:Suntrax@i...]
                  > > Sent: Sunday, 2 December 2001 7:26
                  > > To: kitesurf@y...
                  > > Subject: Re: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Have a 10m Aero in my hand and the Polyfuse looks and feels
                  great, very
                  > > light, taffeta on the outside and mat shiny on the inside, I know
                  the
                  > > membrane is glued but it almost looks like it has been sprayed
                  on, doesn't
                  > > LOOK like it could possibly delaminate, very flexible.
                  > > Graphics look great!. Carbon bar with a gradual radiused hole in
                  the
                  > NYLON,
                  > > through bar, insert, if this solves the wear problem this is the
                  bar of
                  > the
                  > > future!
                  > > Anyway we are off to the beach to do the Capetown Aero launch, S
                  15-20knts
                  > > forecast!
                  > >
                  > > Brian
                  > >
                  > > Brian Wilson
                  > > Suntrax
                  > > Tel/fax 027 21 5560044
                  > > cell; 0824656696
                  > > www.suntrax.co.za
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: Kitepower <kitepower@b...>
                  > > To: <kitesurf@y...>
                  > > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 4:39 AM
                  > > Subject: RE: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > It is carefully worded technobabble IMO!! ;-))
                  > > > Dacron is a trade name owned by DuPont I think, it is a cloth
                  made from
                  > > > polyester fibres.
                  > > > The taffeta base material the tech sheet babbles about is
                  polyester too,
                  > > but
                  > > > it is being laminated to a polyester membrane, so there is still
                  > potential
                  > > > for delamming.
                  > > > It is true some "dacron" cloths are stiffened with a resin
                  which breaks
                  > > > down, but there has also been a cloth available for several
                  years that
                  > is
                  > > > heat bonded and flattened, which I think is what is being used
                  in the
                  > > North,
                  > > > Slingshot, Airush kites.
                  > > > I still think that Naish do a lot of research and development
                  testing
                  > and
                  > > > the cloth is most likely a huge improvement over the cchnobabble
                  > > > current material.
                  > > > I really dislike badly researched technobabble, especially when
                  they say
                  > > bad
                  > > > things about a product and in fact their product is made for
                  the same
                  > base
                  > > > material.
                  > > >
                  > > > Cya and
                  > > > Goodwinds
                  > > > Steve McCormack
                  > > > http://www.kitepower.com.au
                  > > > mailto:sydney@k...
                  > > > Open 7 days
                  > > > 126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                  > > > Phone +61293157894
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: c_batalha@c... [mailto:c_batalha@c...]
                  > > > Sent: 02 December, 2001 10:32 AM
                  > > > To: kitesurf@y...
                  > > > Subject: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi
                  > > >
                  > > > Does anyone knows if the new leading edge fabric from Naish
                  > > > (Polyfuse) is as good as they say in theirs Tech Sheet? You can
                  see
                  > > > it on www.kiteboarding.be .
                  > > >
                  > > > They are saying that this new material (used on both Aero and
                  Virus)
                  > > > is stronger and stiffer than Dacron. Is this the
                  usual "comercial
                  > > > crap" or does it really have some advantages?
                  > > >
                  > > > Good winds 4UALL
                  > > > Carlos
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Support your local kitesurf association !
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-
                  unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Support your local kitesurf association !
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-
                  unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Support your local kitesurf association !
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-
                  unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Support your local kitesurf association !
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-
                  unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • Suntrax
                  Hi Robin Sorry, haven t got a digital camera, this is Africa :o) Best we have is on http://www.naishkites.com/kites_products.asp?page=aero Regards Brian Brian
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 4, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Robin

                    Sorry, haven't got a digital camera, this is Africa :o)
                    Best we have is on http://www.naishkites.com/kites_products.asp?page=aero

                    Regards

                    Brian

                    Brian Wilson
                    Suntrax
                    Tel/fax 027 21 5560044
                    cell; 0824656696
                    www.suntrax.co.za

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Robin Zwissler <robin@...>
                    To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:18 PM
                    Subject: RE: [ksurf] Naish Polyfuse Tech Sheet!


                    > Brian, could you please make a picture of the bar?
                    >
                    > Robin
                    > http://www.kite-surf.com
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