Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re:ARC 1410 or 1120 (vs Flysurfer)

Expand Messages
  • dougtraub@mindspring.com
    I have not flown a Flysurfer but I have seen one flown. They are a like F-One s in that they have bridals and fly fast but they also can bow tie and be
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 31, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      I have not flown a Flysurfer but I have seen one flown. They are a
      like F-One's in that they have bridals and fly fast but they also can
      bow tie and be tougher to relaunch than ARC's. It is my
      understanding that Flysurfers depower well. I believe Xtreme Big Air
      has a monopoly on them in the USA.

      --- In kitesurf@y..., dlent@n... wrote:
      >
      > Marc,
      > I am replacing the 9.0 Shadow for a few reasons. (1) I have my
      > doubts about the future and viability of F-One (2) I've had it
      since
      > last January, and while still in good condition I'd like to retire
      it to
      > use on the snow in the winter (3) Having lost our F-One North
      > American rep to Inflatibles I prefer to deal with dealers who
      actually
      > kite rather than just sell kites as a auxiliary to windsurfing gear
      and
      > (4) Believe it or not, other than the hideous pumpkin color, I
      like
      > their (ARC's) looks.
      > I've been interested in Flysurfers and have read everything on
      > this list about them but there is no one here that's even seen one,
      > much less flown one. Are they bridled? How complicated is the
      > bar? I'm used to two lines so, with all due respect to Mel, one
      of
      > his bars looks way too complicated for me. What about
      > water relaunchability?Are there any distributors in the Northeast
      > US?
      > Thanx,
      > Dennis
      > From: Marc Munzer <mmun@i...>
      > Subject: Re: ARC 1410 or 1120
      >
      >
      > I've never flown an ARC, but thought I would answer anyways...
      >
      > The ARC will be more like an inflatable. Its the extra size of the
      kite
      > which will slow the kite down and make it fly slower, more like an
      > inflatable.
      >
      > I fly an 11.5 inflatable which has a bit less power than a 7
      flysurfer
      > mastair. I would say that a 11.2 ARC would be similar in power as
      > a 7
      > from
      > Fone. I used to have a Fone STW 7 and I would say that the ~11
      > inflatable/ARC would have the same power. So I would suggest
      > that if you
      > want to replace your 9 you go for a 14.
      >
      > But why do you want to replace your Shadow with an ARC if you
      > really
      > like
      > it...? If you prefer foils and you are looking for depowering
      ability,
      > then
      > check out the flysurfers, they will be more like your shadow, but
      > have a
      > depower option.
      >
      > I think the only advantage to an ARC over a typical foil is slower
      > handling
      > and more stability?? In the bigger sizes, these are both negatives
      > since
      > big kites are naturally slow and stable.
      >
      > Marc"
    • Kitepower
      I think the 1410 will be the kite that fills the bill for you, there is a bit of a delay in getting one of them though. Cya and Goodwinds Steve McCormack
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 31, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        I think the 1410 will be the kite that fills the bill for you, there is a
        bit of a delay in getting one of them though.

        Cya and
        Goodwinds
        Steve McCormack
        http://www.kitepower.com.au
        mailto:sydney@...
        126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
        Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
        Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
        mailto:geelong@...

        -----Original Message-----
        From: dlent@... [mailto:dlent@...]
        Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2001 1:27
        To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ksurf] ARC 1410 or 1120


        I've been thinking about replacing my 9.0 F-One Shadow with an
        ARC. I really like the Shadow and prefer foils to inflatibles. The
        wind is usually pretty steady on Cape Cod, USA where I kite so
        the wider range of inflatibles is not really all that important. My
        range on the 9.0 is like 10 to 20, and at 20+ I usually grab a
        smaller kite. I'm about 195 lbs and ride a 5.6 twin tip. I guess I
        really have two questions:
        1. Do the flying characteristics of the ARC resemble a foil or an
        inflatible? I find the Shadow, even the 9 to be a kite that turns
        easily and also is easy to turn and sweep for power. Water
        relaunch when underpowered of course is an issue. Please no foil
        versus inflatible arguments.
        2. Which would be the better choice, the 1410 or the 1120? My
        9,0 is workable at 10, sweet range at 12 to 17-18 and feeling large
        at 20+. Maybe I'm answering my own question but I'd like the kite
        to perform optimumly at the lower end of the range, 10 to 15 but I
        don't want something that's really an 8 to 12 kite. Our thermals
        and synopic winds are rarely in the 5 to 10 range, we're usually
        seeing 10+ or nothing. I'd prefer the smaller 1120 but if its really a
        15+ kite it won't fill the bill. I've already used Mel's spread sheet so
        I'd really prefer some rider feedback.
        Thanx,
        Dennis

        Support your local kitesurf association !


        <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • loco4viento@yahoo.com
        Dennis, I say 1410. I think ARCs fly more like inflatables in terms of smoothness of power. Your Shadow 9 probably has more power than an 1120, and I think if
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 31, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Dennis,

          I say 1410.

          I think ARCs fly more like inflatables in terms of smoothness of power.
          Your Shadow 9 probably has more power than an 1120, and I think if you
          had a 1410 it would cover your range well...I can't comment super well
          since my 1410 and I haven't hit the winds right so far...I weigh about
          180, and on a wakeboard my 1120 is good starting around 12 or 13 mph;
          my 1120/840 stack is good starting around 9 or 10 mph. I can fly the
          1120 easily in 20 mph, and have flown it comfortably in more than that,
          but launching in 20+ mph is a little intimidating if the launch site
          isn't real nice.

          I'd be afraid if you got the 1120 you'd be disappointed in the lower
          end of the range. Probably if you got a 1410 and really fell in lo0ve
          with the thing, you could grab an 840 down the road as a higher wind
          toy.

          Good luck,

          John

          --- In kitesurf@y..., dlent@n... wrote:
          > I've been thinking about replacing my 9.0 F-One Shadow with an
          > ARC. I really like the Shadow and prefer foils to inflatibles. The
          > wind is usually pretty steady on Cape Cod, USA where I kite so
          > the wider range of inflatibles is not really all that important. My
          > range on the 9.0 is like 10 to 20, and at 20+ I usually grab a
          > smaller kite. I'm about 195 lbs and ride a 5.6 twin tip. I guess I
          > really have two questions:
          > 1. Do the flying characteristics of the ARC resemble a foil or an
          > inflatible? I find the Shadow, even the 9 to be a kite that turns
          > easily and also is easy to turn and sweep for power. Water
          > relaunch when underpowered of course is an issue. Please no foil
          > versus inflatible arguments.
          > 2. Which would be the better choice, the 1410 or the 1120? My
          > 9,0 is workable at 10, sweet range at 12 to 17-18 and feeling large
          > at 20+. Maybe I'm answering my own question but I'd like the kite
          > to perform optimumly at the lower end of the range, 10 to 15 but I
          > don't want something that's really an 8 to 12 kite. Our thermals
          > and synopic winds are rarely in the 5 to 10 range, we're usually
          > seeing 10+ or nothing. I'd prefer the smaller 1120 but if its really a
          > 15+ kite it won't fill the bill. I've already used Mel's spread sheet so
          > I'd really prefer some rider feedback.
          > Thanx,
          > Dennis
        • xtremcata@yahoo.com
          Talking about ARC s colors... I just ordered an ARC 460 for this winter.. I had the choice between two colors : -GOLD -PINK Outch...... Luc ... designers baby
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 31, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Talking about ARC's colors... I just ordered an ARC 460 for this
            winter.. I had the choice between two colors :
            -GOLD
            -PINK
            Outch......
            Luc

            --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
            > It is a weird shade of orange isn't it, I wonder whether the
            designers baby
            > threw up one morning and he said "That's it, that is the true
            colour of
            > puke, I've been trying all my life to create"!
            > Arcs are starting to come through in other shades of hideousness
            now,
            > including, why this yellow, and bilious blue.
            > They are sweet flyers though!! :-))
            >
            > Cya and
            > Goodwinds
            > Steve McCormack
            > http://www.kitepower.com.au
            > mailto:sydney@k...
            > 126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
            > Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
            > Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
            > mailto:geelong@k...
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: dlent@n... [mailto:dlent@n...]
            > Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2001 6:49
            > To: kitesurf@y...
            > Subject: [ksurf] Re:ARC 1410 or 1120
            >
            >
            >
            > Marc,
            > I am replacing the 9.0 Shadow for a few reasons. (1) I have my
            > doubts about the future and viability of F-One (2) I've had it since
            > last January, and while still in good condition I'd like to retire
            it to
            > use on the snow in the winter (3) Having lost our F-One North
            > American rep to Inflatibles I prefer to deal with dealers who
            actually
            > kite rather than just sell kites as a auxiliary to windsurfing gear
            and
            > (4) Believe it or not, other than the hideous pumpkin color, I like
            > their (ARC's) looks.
            > I've been interested in Flysurfers and have read everything on
            > this list about them but there is no one here that's even seen one,
            > much less flown one. Are they bridled? How complicated is the
            > bar? I'm used to two lines so, with all due respect to Mel, one
            of
            > his bars looks way too complicated for me. What about
            > water relaunchability?Are there any distributors in the Northeast
            > US?
            > Thanx,
            > Dennis
            > From: Marc Munzer <mmun@i...>
            > Subject: Re: ARC 1410 or 1120
            >
            >
            > I've never flown an ARC, but thought I would answer anyways...
            >
            > The ARC will be more like an inflatable. Its the extra size of the
            kite
            > which will slow the kite down and make it fly slower, more like an
            > inflatable.
            >
            > I fly an 11.5 inflatable which has a bit less power than a 7
            flysurfer
            > mastair. I would say that a 11.2 ARC would be similar in power as
            > a 7
            > from
            > Fone. I used to have a Fone STW 7 and I would say that the ~11
            > inflatable/ARC would have the same power. So I would suggest
            > that if you
            > want to replace your 9 you go for a 14.
            >
            > But why do you want to replace your Shadow with an ARC if you
            > really
            > like
            > it...? If you prefer foils and you are looking for depowering
            ability,
            > then
            > check out the flysurfers, they will be more like your shadow, but
            > have a
            > depower option.
            >
            > I think the only advantage to an ARC over a typical foil is slower
            > handling
            > and more stability?? In the bigger sizes, these are both negatives
            > since
            > big kites are naturally slow and stable.
            >
            > Marc"
            >
            >
            > Support your local kitesurf association !
            >
            >
            > <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-
            unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Marc Munzer
            Hi Dennis, Regarding Fone, I understand that they are not quite dead yet :-) I would wait and see what the new season brings. Hopefully this slider issue will
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 31, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Dennis,

              Regarding Fone, I understand that they are not quite dead yet :-) I would
              wait and see what the new season brings. Hopefully this slider issue will
              sort itself out in the next couple of months and then we might actually see
              some of them on the water. Also their new inflatable looks very nice and
              supposedly they are launching a new snow foil. Plus I think they make some
              of the best twintips on the market. Anyways, words from a future hopefull
              Fone dealer. I think we are all in a period of learning with respect to
              equipment. I personally respect a company which is trying out new stuff.
              Maybe they made some mistakes with the slider, but at least they are
              experimenting.

              Anyways, regarding the flysurfers, I sell them in Denmark, and I personally
              kite more than I sell :-) I think most of the dealers you will talk to are
              like that. I think there is a new Flysurfer rep in the states? There have
              been a couple of posts lately. There is also a new flysurferusa.com
              website. It seems to be just a copy of the flysurfer.de site, but maybe
              there is something going on there?? The flysurfers are built like your fone
              shadow, ie bridled. They water launch really well. The bar is more
              complicated than a two line bar, but simpler than an arc bar. It has three
              lines at the bar and a single harness loop. I think its the best bar system
              on the market by far. I will go out on a limb but say that if you like your
              Fone shadow, get a mastair 9 and you will be very happy. I think that the
              arc will feel slow compared to your shadow. Plus the mastair is in my
              opinion the prettiest kite on the market. No puke inspiration on these
              kites :-)

              The issue of bowtieing, is an issue as it is with any other ram air kite,
              arcs included. But I would say that a modern foil will bowtie as often as a
              high aspect ratio inflatable will invert or twist or otherwise not water
              relaunch. In my 1 year of kitesurfing, I have swum in once with a foil due
              to it not water relaunching. The extra rigidity of an inflatable comes at
              the cost of bladders, etc. I haven't yet decided for myself if the extra
              rigidity is worth the trouble of the extra complexity. I have both kites
              now, but seem to end up on the foils more than the inflatables. I think
              mainly due to the simpler setups. Anyways, I am still experimenting with
              both setups and will see what happens next year.

              Anyways, if you do end up getting a flysurfer you can always contact me for
              help with it. I stand behind flysurfer kites even if you don't buy one from
              me...

              Marc

              At 14:49 31/10/01 -0500, you wrote:
              >
              >Marc,
              > I am replacing the 9.0 Shadow for a few reasons. (1) I have my
              >doubts about the future and viability of F-One (2) I've had it since
              >last January, and while still in good condition I'd like to retire it to
              >use on the snow in the winter (3) Having lost our F-One North
              >American rep to Inflatibles I prefer to deal with dealers who actually
              >kite rather than just sell kites as a auxiliary to windsurfing gear and
              >(4) Believe it or not, other than the hideous pumpkin color, I like
              >their (ARC's) looks.
              > I've been interested in Flysurfers and have read everything on
              >this list about them but there is no one here that's even seen one,
              >much less flown one. Are they bridled? How complicated is the
              >bar? I'm used to two lines so, with all due respect to Mel, one of
              >his bars looks way too complicated for me. What about
              >water relaunchability?Are there any distributors in the Northeast
              >US?
              > Thanx,
              > Dennis
              > From: Marc Munzer <mmun@...>
              >Subject: Re: ARC 1410 or 1120
              >
              >
              >I've never flown an ARC, but thought I would answer anyways...
              >
              >The ARC will be more like an inflatable. Its the extra size of the kite
              >which will slow the kite down and make it fly slower, more like an
              >inflatable.
              >
              >I fly an 11.5 inflatable which has a bit less power than a 7 flysurfer
              >mastair. I would say that a 11.2 ARC would be similar in power as
              >a 7
              >from
              >Fone. I used to have a Fone STW 7 and I would say that the ~11
              >inflatable/ARC would have the same power. So I would suggest
              >that if you
              >want to replace your 9 you go for a 14.
              >
              >But why do you want to replace your Shadow with an ARC if you
              >really
              >like
              >it...? If you prefer foils and you are looking for depowering ability,
              >then
              >check out the flysurfers, they will be more like your shadow, but
              >have a
              >depower option.
              >
              >I think the only advantage to an ARC over a typical foil is slower
              >handling
              >and more stability?? In the bigger sizes, these are both negatives
              >since
              >big kites are naturally slow and stable.
              >
              >Marc"
              >
              >
              >Support your local kitesurf association !
              >
              >
              ><<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • andysantacruz@hotmail.com
              Dennis, My brother has a 12m mastair, and the thing is amazingly powerful. He uses is with a Hana Crew 6 0 Double vision twin tip, and is really powered at 10
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 31, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Dennis,
                My brother has a 12m mastair, and the thing is amazingly powerful.
                He uses is with a Hana Crew 6'0 Double vision twin tip, and is really
                powered at 10 knots(jumping unintenionally). It is amazingly well
                made, it has a very advanced bridling system. They use triangular
                cells so they need less attachment points. His mastair has a lot
                less bridles than my 5.7 waterfoil. It depowers really nicely, and
                the bar is really great. It is sort of like the arc bar in that the
                bar doesn't carry so much of a load as the center loop. It luffs at
                the zenith if the winds are not stable and if you aren't moving it,
                but it is always recuperable. I will post some pics soon of the
                1410, the mastair, and the 1410 in action. My brother wrote a review
                for the 12m mastair at www.zwissler .com, check it out. Are there
                any specific pictures anyone wants me to take? Anyway, que el viento
                este con ustedes,
                Andres Santacruz



                --- In kitesurf@y..., dlent@n... wrote:
                > I've been thinking about replacing my 9.0 F-One Shadow with an
                > ARC. I really like the Shadow and prefer foils to inflatibles.
                The
                > wind is usually pretty steady on Cape Cod, USA where I kite so
                > the wider range of inflatibles is not really all that important.
                My
                > range on the 9.0 is like 10 to 20, and at 20+ I usually grab a
                > smaller kite. I'm about 195 lbs and ride a 5.6 twin tip. I guess
                I
                > really have two questions:
                > 1. Do the flying characteristics of the ARC resemble a foil or an
                > inflatible? I find the Shadow, even the 9 to be a kite that turns
                > easily and also is easy to turn and sweep for power. Water
                > relaunch when underpowered of course is an issue. Please no foil
                > versus inflatible arguments.
                > 2. Which would be the better choice, the 1410 or the 1120? My
                > 9,0 is workable at 10, sweet range at 12 to 17-18 and feeling large
                > at 20+. Maybe I'm answering my own question but I'd like the kite
                > to perform optimumly at the lower end of the range, 10 to 15 but I
                > don't want something that's really an 8 to 12 kite. Our thermals
                > and synopic winds are rarely in the 5 to 10 range, we're usually
                > seeing 10+ or nothing. I'd prefer the smaller 1120 but if its
                really a
                > 15+ kite it won't fill the bill. I've already used Mel's spread
                sheet so
                > I'd really prefer some rider feedback.
                > Thanx,
                > Dennis
              • kitebord@pacbell.net
                ... All my setups pictured so far in my group file folder are way too complicated for ME too! However that was the only way I could get an inflatable to
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 2, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In kitesurf@y..., dlent@n... wrote:

                  > I'm used to two lines so, with all due respect to Mel, one of
                  > his bars looks way too complicated for me.

                  All my setups pictured so far in my group file folder are way too
                  complicated for ME too! However that was the only way I could get an
                  inflatable to perform the way I wanted for my unusual application
                  (extremely gusty winds). That's one reason I like the ARC so much
                  (please scroll down). Keep in mind though, that while my inflatable
                  setup may LOOK way too complicated, in use it FEELS rather like
                  flying a small two-line kite (little bar load, & no trim loop or line
                  through the bar).

                  AND Marc Munzer <mmun@i...> wrote:

                  > ... flysurfers ... The bar is more
                  complicated than a two line bar, but simpler than an arc bar. It has
                  three
                  lines at the bar and a single harness loop.

                  That's much more complicated than my ARC bar, which has TWO lines, &
                  NO harness loop.
                • Marc Munzer
                  ... Hey Mel, Thats a bit confusing... I thought an ARC has four lines? even if you have a free bar, your system still has four lines. Its not the number of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 3, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    >
                    >AND Marc Munzer <mmun@i...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> ... flysurfers ... The bar is more
                    >complicated than a two line bar, but simpler than an arc bar. It has
                    >three
                    >lines at the bar and a single harness loop.
                    >
                    >That's much more complicated than my ARC bar, which has TWO lines, &
                    >NO harness loop.

                    Hey Mel,

                    Thats a bit confusing... I thought an ARC has four lines? even if you have
                    a free bar, your system still has four lines. Its not the number of lines
                    on the actual bar its the overall complexity of the setup thats important.
                    Also you still have to be hooked insomeway, so you can't say that you have
                    no harness loop, a snap shackle is still a harness loop of some sort... I
                    still believe the flysurfer system is the best overall bar system on the
                    market. In the year that I have been surfing I have not once managed to
                    tangle my lines on the water. that includes lots of major crashes and lots
                    of letting go of the bar... However its not perfect because you still need
                    to go from three lines to four lines at some point and they use pulleys
                    which can be annoying.

                    As soon as I get some time I am going to try to adapt the flysurfer bar to
                    an inflatable because it seems to be possible.

                    Marc
                    GoExtreme.dk
                  • kitebord@pacbell.net
                    ... you have ... lines ... important. Quite true. An ARC does have 4 lines. The lack of complexity is due to no harness loop OR trim loop to get in the way
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 3, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In kitesurf@y..., Marc Munzer <mmun@i...> wrote:

                      > Hey Mel,
                      >
                      > Thats a bit confusing... I thought an ARC has four lines? even if
                      you have
                      > a free bar, your system still has four lines. Its not the number of
                      lines
                      > on the actual bar its the overall complexity of the setup thats
                      important.

                      Quite true. An ARC does have 4 lines. The lack of complexity is due
                      to no harness loop OR trim loop to get in the way on the bar, & to
                      have to hook into & out of.

                      > Also you still have to be hooked insomeway, so you can't say that
                      you have
                      > no harness loop, a snap shackle is still a harness loop of some
                      sort...

                      Not really. The differences are that there is nothing on the bar, &
                      there is nothing to have to hook into or out of. It makes the bar
                      itself as simple as any bar can possibly be (just one line on each
                      end, & NOTHING else).

                      > I
                      > still believe the flysurfer system is the best overall bar system
                      on the
                      > market... they use pulleys
                      > which can be annoying.

                      My system has no pulley, no O-ring (except for the little plastic one
                      I use instead of a stopper ball), no stopper ball, no seperate leash
                      line, no adjustment on the center leader (it's incorporated into the
                      spreader), no wrist strap, AND (as mentioned above) no harness line
                      OR trim loop, or harness hook. Yes, I do have a snap shackle, but
                      without all of the above parts, that's a small "sacrifice". Of
                      course it "only" works with an ARC...

                      Mel
                    • mikes1p@email.com
                      ... ..snip.. ... My buddy bought a 9.0 Shadow last spring, as soon as he saw my Mastair 12 he sold the 9.0 and bought the 12M. Another guy put his Mosquito 9
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 4, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > I am replacing the 9.0 Shadow for a few reasons
                        ..snip..

                        > I've been interested in Flysurfers and have read everything on
                        > this list about them but there is no one here that's even seen one,
                        > much less flown one.
                        My buddy bought a 9.0 Shadow last spring, as soon as he saw my
                        Mastair 12 he sold the 9.0 and bought the 12M. Another guy put his
                        Mosquito 9 away too. The Mastair outperforms the F-One and the Mosi
                        on the low end and the upperend, it flys faster so you can really
                        jump, the depower works well. It's better at everything your 9.0 does
                        plus it depowers and is mellower to launch.

                        > Are they bridled?
                        Yes, I like the F-One bridle better, stiffer line sorts itself out
                        better. You need to check the bridle and the pulleys before launching
                        the Flysurfer to make sure it's right.

                        > How complicated is the bar?
                        More complicated than the F-One but I find it to be simple enough.
                        What is awesome about the FlySurfer bar is there is no/very little
                        pull on the bar, just on the the chicken loop. The stock setup works
                        fine except I find the chicken loop is too big.

                        > What about water relaunchability?
                        They water relaunch as easy or easier than the F-One (I have an F-One
                        7). You can steer it a little with the blue cross strap, which helps
                        get one tip higher so it's easier to turn and fly up to the zenith.It
                        helps to be in the chicken loop on LE down relaunches. You have to be
                        in the chicken loop on TE down (otherwise it will fly up 15 feet,
                        stall, then fly backwards down to the water).

                        Mike S
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.