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[ksurf] Re: Arc and Quadrifoil bar

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  • thorpes@arklogic.com
    ... Sounds nice, but having once been seriously tombstoned and experienced how disorienting it can be (the same would probably be true of a trip and fall on
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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      --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
      > ..So how's this for simplicity & symmetry?:
      >
      > Tie a 2' center leader to the spreader hook, with an o-ring at
      > the other end for a snap shackle like MelMods2*. ...

      Sounds nice, but having once been seriously tombstoned and
      experienced how disorienting it can be (the same would
      probably be true of a trip and fall on land) I will never
      ride with my shackle-release anywhere but on my harness. I
      know it looks perfectly accessible up there at the top of the
      leaders but when all breaks loose suddenly (and at my stage
      of learning that's more than just a remote possibility;-) I
      would rather know for certain where my shackle release is
      than to have to guess which way it went. As with my paraglider
      reserve chute handle, I usually do a dummy-grab just after
      getting up and riding to build up "muscle-memory".

      I know my stainless "double snap shackle on a swivel" is
      a monstrosity of complexity that offends your your fine
      sense of simplicity (not to mention your fine sense of
      affordability...it cost more than half the price of the
      harness to build!) but as far as the lines go I'm quite
      happy with two front leaders instead of one leader and
      a leash line. (in fact I prefer it because leash lines-
      even bungeed-tend to behave less predictably that a riding
      line under tension.) And now that I've pretty much
      dedicated the right front line as the quick-release line
      ( as you can tell by the ball-and-loop release pull in
      my photo ) the stainless ring and plastic ball at the
      top of the right leader is superfluous and can also be
      removed.

      Steve T.
    • Mel
      ... Fair enough. I was really just curious if you guys thought it wouldn t function at all (even at a lower safety level) so I didn t need to bother trying
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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        <thorpes@...> wrote:

        > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
        > > ..So how's this for simplicity & symmetry?:
        > >
        > > Tie a 2' center leader to the spreader hook, with an o-ring at
        > > the other end for a snap shackle like MelMods2*. ...
        >
        > Sounds nice, but having once been seriously tombstoned and
        > experienced how disorienting it can be (the same would
        > probably be true of a trip and fall on land) I will never
        > ride with my shackle-release anywhere but on my harness.

        Fair enough. I was really just curious if you guys thought it wouldn't
        function at all (even at a lower safety level) so I didn't need to bother
        trying it. Personally I've never been that badly thrashed by the relatively
        docile ARC. In fact I seem to have progressed beyond bad thrashings with
        inflatables too.

        That leads back to the TinMan's "MelLeash" system*, although I've NEVER felt
        the need to release from the leash itself, which would eliminate the need
        for the second snap shackle (just a swivel if needed, or snap directly to
        the hook).

        * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/TinMan/MelLeash.jpg, which
        still has two lines to the spreader (as you mentioned), one of them
        untensioned.

        Mel
      • thorpes@arklogic.com
        ... I m sure it would work just fine - my only reservation is the (small) possibility that when you need it most the release mechanism may be hard to find. ...
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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          > > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:

          > ..Fair enough. I was really just curious if you guys
          > thought it wouldn't function at all (even at a lower
          > safety level) so I didn't need to bother trying it.

          I'm sure it would work just fine - my only reservation
          is the (small) possibility that when you need it most
          the release mechanism may be hard to find.

          > Personally I've never been that badly thrashed by the
          > relatively docile ARC. In fact I seem to have progressed
          > beyond bad thrashings with inflatables too.

          Well I'm FAR behind you there - though the thrashing that
          I did get was when I was still feeling out the range and
          I took my 1120 out way overpowered - not to mention I was
          still a real novice at the time.

          And I also carry around the results of getting a bit
          overconfident on my paraglider when as a competition pilot
          with many hours logged I thought I could handle anything my
          glider could throw at me. Well one day I found that my glider
          had many more tricks up its sleeve than I'd imagined and now
          I'm about 3/4 shorter. :( So since I always have a bit of
          trepidation about the problems I can't even imagine I rarely
          pass up an opportunity to protect myself as well as possible-
          within reason - against the chaos that I can imagine.


          > ..I've NEVER felt the need to release from the leash itself,
          > which would eliminate the need for the second snap shackle

          I've also never YET felt the need to release from the
          leash itself, but you know the rest ...

          Steve T.
        • jmullmd@home.com
          ... Steve... You seem to be of normal height to me. Were you once about 24 feet tall or do you mean a certain part of you is now 3/4 shorter? John
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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            --- In kitesurf@y..., thorpes@a... wrote:
            >...and now I'm about 3/4 shorter. :(
            > Steve T.

            Steve...

            You seem to be of normal height to me. Were you once about 24 feet tall
            or do you mean a certain part of you is now 3/4 shorter?

            John
          • Mel
            ... Okay. Thanks. I ll try it after I find the ideal wedged 840 adjustment strap length (& then replace it with plain line). ... Better safe than sorry. I
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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              <thorpes@...> wrote:

              > I'm sure it would work just fine

              Okay. Thanks. I'll try it after I find the ideal wedged 840 adjustment
              strap length (& then replace it with plain line).

              >- my only reservation
              > is the (small) possibility that when you need it most
              > the release mechanism may be hard to find.

              Better safe than sorry. I already have my release positioned "unsafely" at
              the top of my strap, so if anything my new idea should be safer since it'll
              be closer (I can shorten all the leaders since I won't need the extra length
              for adjustment range).

              Mel
            • Kitepower
              Steve Thorpe wrote, Well one day I found that my glider had many more tricks up its sleeve than I d imagined and now I m about 3/4 shorter. :( 3/4 shorter =
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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                Steve Thorpe wrote,

                Well one day I found that my glider
                had many more tricks up its sleeve than I'd imagined and now
                I'm about 3/4 shorter. :(

                3/4 shorter = crushed vertebra?



                Cya and
                Goodwinds
                Steve McCormack
                http://www.kitepower.com.au
                mailto:sydney@...
                126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                mailto:geelong@...

                -----Original Message-----
                From: thorpes@... [mailto:thorpes@...]
                Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2001 6:26
                To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ksurf] Re: Arc and Quadrifoil bar


                > > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:

                > ..Fair enough. I was really just curious if you guys
                > thought it wouldn't function at all (even at a lower
                > safety level) so I didn't need to bother trying it.

                I'm sure it would work just fine - my only reservation
                is the (small) possibility that when you need it most
                the release mechanism may be hard to find.

                > Personally I've never been that badly thrashed by the
                > relatively docile ARC. In fact I seem to have progressed
                > beyond bad thrashings with inflatables too.

                Well I'm FAR behind you there - though the thrashing that
                I did get was when I was still feeling out the range and
                I took my 1120 out way overpowered - not to mention I was
                still a real novice at the time.

                And I also carry around the results of getting a bit
                overconfident on my paraglider when as a competition pilot
                with many hours logged I thought I could handle anything my
                glider could throw at me. Well one day I found that my glider
                had many more tricks up its sleeve than I'd imagined and now
                I'm about 3/4 shorter. :( So since I always have a bit of
                trepidation about the problems I can't even imagine I rarely
                pass up an opportunity to protect myself as well as possible-
                within reason - against the chaos that I can imagine.


                > ..I've NEVER felt the need to release from the leash itself,
                > which would eliminate the need for the second snap shackle

                I've also never YET felt the need to release from the
                leash itself, but you know the rest ...

                Steve T.



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              • thorpes@arklogic.com
                ... L4 & L5 :( Steve T.
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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                  --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Steve Thorpe wrote,
                  >
                  > Well one day I found that my glider
                  > had many more tricks up its sleeve than I'd imagined and now
                  > I'm about 3/4 shorter. :(
                  >
                  > 3/4 shorter = crushed vertebra?
                  >

                  L4 & L5 :(


                  Steve T.
                • Kitepower
                  Me too I used to 6 11 , now I m only 5 5 I ve lost about an inch!! :-) T7,T8,L1,L2,L3 and L4 Cya and Goodwinds Steve McCormack http://www.kitepower.com.au
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 2, 2001
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                    Me too I used to 6'11", now I'm only 5'5" I've lost about an inch!! :-)
                    T7,T8,L1,L2,L3 and L4

                    Cya and
                    Goodwinds
                    Steve McCormack
                    http://www.kitepower.com.au
                    mailto:sydney@...
                    126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                    Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                    Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                    mailto:geelong@...

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: thorpes@... [mailto:thorpes@...]
                    Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2001 4:16
                    To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [ksurf] Re: Arc and Quadrifoil bar


                    --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Steve Thorpe wrote,
                    >
                    > Well one day I found that my glider
                    > had many more tricks up its sleeve than I'd imagined and now
                    > I'm about 3/4 shorter. :(
                    >
                    > 3/4 shorter = crushed vertebra?
                    >

                    L4 & L5 :(


                    Steve T.


                    This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com
                    For Kitesurfers by Kitesurfers

                    http://www.KiteHigh.com

                    Win Board or Cabrinha Kite sweepstakes on now.

                    1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA
                    808 579 9849
                    Email:support@...

                    <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Stefano Rosso
                    ... Has ANYONE actually ever released a snap shackle in a REAL emergency situation ? I got some friends that are getting shackle happy but in all my kitemares
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 3, 2001
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                      >
                      > > ..I've NEVER felt the need to release from the leash itself,
                      > > which would eliminate the need for the second snap shackle
                      >
                      > I've also never YET felt the need to release from the
                      > leash itself, but you know the rest ...

                      Has ANYONE actually ever released a snap shackle in a REAL emergency
                      situation ?

                      I got some friends that are getting shackle happy but in all my kitemares i
                      get lifted, thrashed so damn bad that my ONLY reaction is to hang onto the
                      bar... and this makes a lot of sense when i am anything over 10 feet
                      up...which is normally where i find myself after i come to my senses after
                      the initial GRIP of DEATH reaction !
                    • Roland Andrag
                      ... Yes, I was sailing upwind of a really ugly barbed wire fence (running into the water to seperate someone s property from the launching area), lost my egde
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 3, 2001
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                        >
                        > Has ANYONE actually ever released a snap shackle in a REAL emergency
                        > situation ?

                        Yes, I was sailing upwind of a really ugly barbed wire fence (running into
                        the water to seperate someone's property from the launching area), lost my
                        egde at exactly the wrong moment, pulled the snap shackle and stopped 2 m
                        from the fence. If I'd been in the chicken loop (or locked in the wipika
                        loop!) I would most probably have been hurt, hitting the fence right about
                        when I would have been powering up to release.

                        Roland
                      • thorpes@arklogic.com
                        ... My comment ( and I though Mel s too) was refering to the total kite- release snap shackle - not the leash shackle. I definitely HAVE used the leash
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 3, 2001
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                          --- In kitesurf@y..., Stefano Rosso <stefano@o...> wrote:

                          Mel wrote:
                          > > > ..I've NEVER felt the need to release from the leash itself,
                          > > > which would eliminate the need for the second snap shackle

                          Steve T. wrote:
                          > > *I've also never YET felt the need to release from the
                          > > leash itself, but you know the rest ...
                          >
                          > Has ANYONE actually ever released a snap shackle in a REAL
                          > emergency situation ?
                          >
                          > I got some friends that are getting shackle happy but in all
                          > my kitemares i get lifted, thrashed so damn bad that my ONLY
                          > reaction is to hang onto the bar...

                          My comment ( and I though Mel's too) was refering to the total kite-
                          release snap shackle - not the "leash" shackle. I definitely HAVE
                          used the leash shackle a couple of times - before I'd "mastered" the
                          downwind launch on my Arcs I used it one when I started getting
                          dragged dangerously close to a rock levee. A second time when I
                          started getting tea-bagged in suddenly overpowered conditions - in
                          about 1 ft of water! After two lucky landings I decided that pulling
                          leash shackle was a good idea.

                          As far as the total release shackle is concerned - yes I know that
                          kind of emergency is rare--crashing on to a car passing in a parking
                          lot (seen it happen) getting completely tangled in someone elses kite
                          which then takes off at full power- removing your steering AND leash
                          options in one go (seen it happen) but for a $20 shackle why take the
                          risk of being permanently and irreversibly attached to the kite?

                          Of course if you use a regular wrist or harness mounted leash you
                          don't need a "leashing" shackle and if you don't ride permenaently
                          attached to the kite you don't need a total-release shackle.

                          Steve T.
                        • Stefano Rosso
                          ... Me too ! ... I agree totally... but i have some friends that are getting too confident because they now have shackles (leash, loop whatever) seems to me
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 4, 2001
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                            >
                            > > I got some friends that are getting shackle happy but in all
                            > > my kitemares i get lifted, thrashed so damn bad that my ONLY
                            > > reaction is to hang onto the bar...
                            >
                            > My comment ( and I though Mel's too) was refering to the total kite-
                            > release snap shackle - not the "leash" shackle.

                            Me too !


                            > I definitely HAVE
                            > used the leash shackle a couple of times - before I'd "mastered" the
                            > downwind launch on my Arcs I used it one when I started getting
                            > dragged dangerously close to a rock levee. A second time when I
                            > started getting tea-bagged in suddenly overpowered conditions - in
                            > about 1 ft of water! After two lucky landings I decided that pulling
                            > leash shackle was a good idea.
                            >
                            > As far as the total release shackle is concerned - yes I know that
                            > kind of emergency is rare--crashing on to a car passing in a parking
                            > lot (seen it happen) getting completely tangled in someone elses kite
                            > which then takes off at full power- removing your steering AND leash
                            > options in one go (seen it happen) but for a $20 shackle why take the
                            > risk of being permanently and irreversibly attached to the kite?

                            I agree totally... but i have some friends that are getting too confident
                            because they now have shackles (leash, loop whatever)

                            seems to me that the most sensible thing is not to ride upwind of barbed wire
                            !! doesnt matter if you have a shackle or not !
                          • Roland Andrag
                            ... wire ... I agree fully with that statement. Basically I was making it back to the landing area in a fading wind, and had lost a lot of ground on the way
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 4, 2001
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                              > seems to me that the most sensible thing is not to ride upwind of barbed
                              wire
                              > !! doesnt matter if you have a shackle or not !

                              I agree fully with that statement. Basically I was making it back to the
                              landing area in a fading wind, and had lost a lot of ground on the way in,
                              hence did not have the 200 m buffer normally kept. I had the choice of
                              stopping before the fence or after, and wrongly decided to push on past it
                              (since I was going well and it was the home stretch of 30 m), very dumb.
                              Gust hits, edge goes, water spraying everywhere, did not know where the
                              fence was until I had stopped, having pulled the leash shackle. Was glad I
                              had the shackle. Also shackle played no role in my deciding to pass the
                              fence (although if I didn't have a shackle I would probably have unhooked
                              from the chicken loop, since I was fully aware I was doing something
                              stupid).

                              Roland
                            • thorpes@arklogic.com
                              ... I guess this is what differentiates good kitesurfers from bad - the bad ones don t know when they re doing something stupid ;-) Steve T.
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 4, 2001
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                                --- In kitesurf@y..., "Roland Andrag" <randrag@i...> wrote:

                                >... Also shackle played no role in my deciding to pass
                                > the fence ...

                                >...I was fully aware I was doing something stupid.


                                I guess this is what differentiates good kitesurfers from
                                bad - the bad ones don't know when they're doing something
                                stupid ;-)

                                Steve T.
                              • jmullmd@home.com
                                ... Sometimes the more foolish ones are easily identified by the bandages, casts, duct tape, cervical halos, staples, clips and joint immobilizers they are
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 4, 2001
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                                  --- In kitesurf@y..., thorpes@a... wrote:
                                  > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Roland Andrag" <randrag@i...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >... Also shackle played no role in my deciding to pass
                                  > > the fence ...
                                  >
                                  > >...I was fully aware I was doing something stupid.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I guess this is what differentiates good kitesurfers from
                                  > bad - the bad ones don't know when they're doing something
                                  > stupid ;-)
                                  >
                                  > Steve T.

                                  Sometimes the more foolish ones are easily identified by the
                                  bandages, casts, duct tape, cervical halos, staples, clips and joint
                                  immobilizers they are wearing at the beach...the kind of thing our
                                  buddy Traig wears around nearly every day of his injury-prone life.

                                  John
                                • Mel
                                  ... Once again, better to hover low (away from land in this case!), then you just get dragged instead of lifted. I launch inflatables in thigh deep water, &
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 5, 2001
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                                    <thorpes@...> wrote:

                                    > I definitely HAVE
                                    > used the leash shackle a couple of times ... A second time when I
                                    > started getting tea-bagged in suddenly overpowered conditions - in
                                    > about 1 ft of water! After two lucky landings I decided that pulling
                                    > leash shackle was a good idea.

                                    Once again, better to hover low (away from land in this case!), then you
                                    just get dragged instead of lifted. I launch inflatables in thigh deep
                                    water, & if I get lifted I fly the kite out, so I land planing on the water,
                                    instead of a hard surface (like shallow water).

                                    > As far as the total release shackle ...
                                    > getting completely tangled in someone elses kite ...

                                    Oh yeah! Thanks. I hadn't thought about that in a while, even though I try
                                    to remember to use that as an example of why to use a leash (for those who
                                    think they don't need it just because THEY have good skills).

                                    > if you don't ride permenaently
                                    > attached to the kite you don't need a total-release shackle.

                                    I guess, but in order to be equally safe, you'd still need a trim loop
                                    shackle.

                                    Mel
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