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Re: [ksurf] Re: Arc and Quadrifoil bar

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  • Mel
    ... It s for me! I have a few questions though. Do most of you ride ARCs with no harness line? Steve T.: I notice you added a bungee harness line a few days
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 31 6:35 PM
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      <thorpes@...> wrote:

      > see my Leashless Safety
      > System photo and drawing in
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/TinMan/
      > The free-bar is not for everyone

      It's for me! I have a few questions though. Do most of you ride ARCs with
      no harness line?

      Steve T.: I notice you added a bungee harness line a few days ago. Did you
      miss having one? Also, do you have rear line adjustment? or just the
      "oversheeting prevention" strap?

      AND <jmullmd@...> wrote:

      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/Arc%20Bar/3%20line%
      > 20short%20bar.JPG
      > doubling system was not as simple as I currently like

      What doubling system do you like now? Is it still a benefit after wedging?

      Mel
    • jmullmd@home.com
      ... wedging? ... Hi Mel, I have not been using a doubling system for quite some time. The little John s Arc Bar in the Files is what I ve been using for the
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 31 7:23 PM
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        > AND <jmullmd@h...> wrote:
        >
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/Arc%20Bar/3%20line%
        > > 20short%20bar.JPG
        > > doubling system was not as simple as I currently like
        >
        > What doubling system do you like now? Is it still a benefit after
        wedging?
        >
        > Mel

        Hi Mel,

        I have not been using a doubling system for quite some time. The
        little John's Arc Bar in the Files is what I've been using for the
        year 2001; with the free bar turning is so good, even with the 1120
        in 8-10 mph unwedged, that I really don't find a need for mods to
        improve turning. Now that it's wedged, things are even better.

        There are so many great ways to fly these kites, and I'm finding each
        way teaches me a little more about them. The doubler in Ian Young's
        Short Arc Bar in the files is nice and has a couple of cool
        subtleties about it. For example, if you're one who likes to feel
        some bar pressure when you sheet in, the doubler provides this
        without flares. It also prevents full stalling of the kite, and if
        you let go of the loop, front and rear line pressures instantly
        equalize and the kite semi-stalls about 10 degrees above the water
        straight downwind without shooting down fast (great for then turning
        and landing gently on a tip). You can also use a pretty short bar
        with this system. Some people might like this...it's really nice. For
        me, the simplicity of my free bar is the best for me at the moment. I
        don't even have a regular harness line on my bar.

        Mel, I'd say if you want more sheeting than the length of your arms
        permits, then consider a doubler system. For turning performance, I
        really doubt you'd like such a system that much as I'm pretty sure
        you'll be more than extatic with a simpler system without pulleys.

        Have a great time with your new improved toy...

        John
      • thorpes@arklogic.com
        ... I don t use a harness line. ... That is just a concept drawing - I thought it might be fun to try some hands free riding. I haven t actually added it yet.
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 31 7:27 PM
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          > <thorpes@a...> wrote:
          >
          > > see my Leashless Safety
          > > System photo and drawing in
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/TinMan/
          > > The free-bar is not for everyone

          > Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:

          > It's for me! I have a few questions though. Do most of you
          > ride ARCs with no harness line?

          I don't use a harness line.

          > Steve T.: I notice you added a bungee harness line a few
          > days ago. Did you miss having one?

          That is just a concept drawing - I thought it might be fun
          to try some hands free riding. I haven't actually added it
          yet.

          > Also, do you have rear line adjustment? or just the
          > "oversheeting prevention" strap?

          I have the famous prussiks on the rear lines but I have
          NEVER used them since setting up - I plan to take them off
          just to tidy up the rig.

          What I typically do is launch with my "hang strap" fully loose
          (or even unclipped) for safety and control I can lift the
          kite to zenith very slowly and precisely this way and quickly
          stall it down if anything goes wrong. With the hangstrap
          unclipped I can also undo line twists with the kite overhead
          if necessary*

          I then tighten it up to a point whre I know I won't stall
          and get up and riding. ( I like to use my arms on the water
          start ) As soon as I get riding and fully powered up I slacken
          off the hang strap then, "feel out" the ideal bar position for
          the conditions. I then hold that position with one hand ( easy
          on the Arc ) and adjust the hangstrap with the other hand to
          just take up the slack. Now I know that whenever I'm hanging
          my weight on the bar I'm at the sweet spot! If conditions
          change I repeat the fine-tuning. Just before coming in to land
          I slacken off or unclip the hang-strap so I can stall it down
          on the bar. I've more or less got that off to a fine art by
          now - I just tell someone where to stand and I can usually put
          one tip in their hands, gently and acurately, without them having
          to run all over the beach.

          *Occassionaly a well-meaning helper will turn my kite inside
          out while moving it around when I'm trying to launch at
          Alameda where a beach rise blocks the kite from my view just
          before launching in some wind directions.


          Steve T.
        • jmullmd@home.com
          ... Oooops. Itt loox like Jhon neads two take a spelign klass tooo. Phirst I ll lern two kietserf mo betttre ;-) John
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 31 7:31 PM
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            --- In kitesurf@y..., jmullmd@h... wrote:
            > > AND <jmullmd@h...> wrote:

            > you'll be more than extatic with a simpler system without pulleys.
            > John

            Oooops. Itt loox like Jhon neads two take a spelign klass tooo.
            Phirst I'll lern two kietserf mo betttre ;-)
            John
          • Mel
            ... So with an ARC you don t even need harness lines OR a front or rear line adjustment (no strap OR prussiks)... ... ..but you DO need to be able to adjust
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 31 10:19 PM
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              <thorpes@...> wrote:

              > I don't use a harness line.
              > I have the famous prussiks on the rear lines but I have
              > NEVER used them

              So with an ARC you don't even need harness lines OR a front or rear line
              adjustment (no strap OR prussiks)...

              > adjust the hangstrap with the other hand ... If conditions
              > change I repeat the fine-tuning.

              ..but you DO need to be able to adjust the hangstrap. It looks like John
              uses adjustable prussiks & a fixed oversheeting preventer (hang strap), so
              it seems like an "either-or" situation.

              So how's this for simplicity & symmetry?:

              Tie a 2' center leader to the spreader hook, with an o-ring at the other end
              for a snap shackle like MelMods2*. Attach an adjustable hangstrap to the
              bar, hooked to the o-ring while riding. Rear lines just go to plain 2'
              leaders.

              That's it! No main adjustment strap needed, no swivel needed, no harness
              line needed, no "bar leash" needed, only one snap shackle needed. Very
              nearly as simple as a Seasmik or John's Arc bar, but with a built-in
              release/leash.

              For hand(s) free riding, instead of a harness line, maybe you could just add
              an open "sheet cleat" on the underside of the bar, to cleat to the center
              leader.

              *Or put the snap shackle between the leader & hook to use a grab-leash at
              the o-ring. Either way shouldn't need a swivel, since the line should just
              twist.



              > stall it down
              > on the bar. I've more or less got that off to a fine art by
              > now - I just tell someone where to stand and I can usually put
              > one tip in their hands, gently and acurately, without them having
              > to run all over the beach.

              I'll be plenty happy just being able to land solo on dry sand.

              Mel
            • thorpes@arklogic.com
              ... Sounds nice, but having once been seriously tombstoned and experienced how disorienting it can be (the same would probably be true of a trip and fall on
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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                --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                > ..So how's this for simplicity & symmetry?:
                >
                > Tie a 2' center leader to the spreader hook, with an o-ring at
                > the other end for a snap shackle like MelMods2*. ...

                Sounds nice, but having once been seriously tombstoned and
                experienced how disorienting it can be (the same would
                probably be true of a trip and fall on land) I will never
                ride with my shackle-release anywhere but on my harness. I
                know it looks perfectly accessible up there at the top of the
                leaders but when all breaks loose suddenly (and at my stage
                of learning that's more than just a remote possibility;-) I
                would rather know for certain where my shackle release is
                than to have to guess which way it went. As with my paraglider
                reserve chute handle, I usually do a dummy-grab just after
                getting up and riding to build up "muscle-memory".

                I know my stainless "double snap shackle on a swivel" is
                a monstrosity of complexity that offends your your fine
                sense of simplicity (not to mention your fine sense of
                affordability...it cost more than half the price of the
                harness to build!) but as far as the lines go I'm quite
                happy with two front leaders instead of one leader and
                a leash line. (in fact I prefer it because leash lines-
                even bungeed-tend to behave less predictably that a riding
                line under tension.) And now that I've pretty much
                dedicated the right front line as the quick-release line
                ( as you can tell by the ball-and-loop release pull in
                my photo ) the stainless ring and plastic ball at the
                top of the right leader is superfluous and can also be
                removed.

                Steve T.
              • Mel
                ... Fair enough. I was really just curious if you guys thought it wouldn t function at all (even at a lower safety level) so I didn t need to bother trying
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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                  <thorpes@...> wrote:

                  > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                  > > ..So how's this for simplicity & symmetry?:
                  > >
                  > > Tie a 2' center leader to the spreader hook, with an o-ring at
                  > > the other end for a snap shackle like MelMods2*. ...
                  >
                  > Sounds nice, but having once been seriously tombstoned and
                  > experienced how disorienting it can be (the same would
                  > probably be true of a trip and fall on land) I will never
                  > ride with my shackle-release anywhere but on my harness.

                  Fair enough. I was really just curious if you guys thought it wouldn't
                  function at all (even at a lower safety level) so I didn't need to bother
                  trying it. Personally I've never been that badly thrashed by the relatively
                  docile ARC. In fact I seem to have progressed beyond bad thrashings with
                  inflatables too.

                  That leads back to the TinMan's "MelLeash" system*, although I've NEVER felt
                  the need to release from the leash itself, which would eliminate the need
                  for the second snap shackle (just a swivel if needed, or snap directly to
                  the hook).

                  * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/TinMan/MelLeash.jpg, which
                  still has two lines to the spreader (as you mentioned), one of them
                  untensioned.

                  Mel
                • thorpes@arklogic.com
                  ... I m sure it would work just fine - my only reservation is the (small) possibility that when you need it most the release mechanism may be hard to find. ...
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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                    > > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:

                    > ..Fair enough. I was really just curious if you guys
                    > thought it wouldn't function at all (even at a lower
                    > safety level) so I didn't need to bother trying it.

                    I'm sure it would work just fine - my only reservation
                    is the (small) possibility that when you need it most
                    the release mechanism may be hard to find.

                    > Personally I've never been that badly thrashed by the
                    > relatively docile ARC. In fact I seem to have progressed
                    > beyond bad thrashings with inflatables too.

                    Well I'm FAR behind you there - though the thrashing that
                    I did get was when I was still feeling out the range and
                    I took my 1120 out way overpowered - not to mention I was
                    still a real novice at the time.

                    And I also carry around the results of getting a bit
                    overconfident on my paraglider when as a competition pilot
                    with many hours logged I thought I could handle anything my
                    glider could throw at me. Well one day I found that my glider
                    had many more tricks up its sleeve than I'd imagined and now
                    I'm about 3/4 shorter. :( So since I always have a bit of
                    trepidation about the problems I can't even imagine I rarely
                    pass up an opportunity to protect myself as well as possible-
                    within reason - against the chaos that I can imagine.


                    > ..I've NEVER felt the need to release from the leash itself,
                    > which would eliminate the need for the second snap shackle

                    I've also never YET felt the need to release from the
                    leash itself, but you know the rest ...

                    Steve T.
                  • jmullmd@home.com
                    ... Steve... You seem to be of normal height to me. Were you once about 24 feet tall or do you mean a certain part of you is now 3/4 shorter? John
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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                      --- In kitesurf@y..., thorpes@a... wrote:
                      >...and now I'm about 3/4 shorter. :(
                      > Steve T.

                      Steve...

                      You seem to be of normal height to me. Were you once about 24 feet tall
                      or do you mean a certain part of you is now 3/4 shorter?

                      John
                    • Mel
                      ... Okay. Thanks. I ll try it after I find the ideal wedged 840 adjustment strap length (& then replace it with plain line). ... Better safe than sorry. I
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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                        <thorpes@...> wrote:

                        > I'm sure it would work just fine

                        Okay. Thanks. I'll try it after I find the ideal wedged 840 adjustment
                        strap length (& then replace it with plain line).

                        >- my only reservation
                        > is the (small) possibility that when you need it most
                        > the release mechanism may be hard to find.

                        Better safe than sorry. I already have my release positioned "unsafely" at
                        the top of my strap, so if anything my new idea should be safer since it'll
                        be closer (I can shorten all the leaders since I won't need the extra length
                        for adjustment range).

                        Mel
                      • Kitepower
                        Steve Thorpe wrote, Well one day I found that my glider had many more tricks up its sleeve than I d imagined and now I m about 3/4 shorter. :( 3/4 shorter =
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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                          Steve Thorpe wrote,

                          Well one day I found that my glider
                          had many more tricks up its sleeve than I'd imagined and now
                          I'm about 3/4 shorter. :(

                          3/4 shorter = crushed vertebra?



                          Cya and
                          Goodwinds
                          Steve McCormack
                          http://www.kitepower.com.au
                          mailto:sydney@...
                          126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                          Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                          Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                          mailto:geelong@...

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: thorpes@... [mailto:thorpes@...]
                          Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2001 6:26
                          To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [ksurf] Re: Arc and Quadrifoil bar


                          > > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:

                          > ..Fair enough. I was really just curious if you guys
                          > thought it wouldn't function at all (even at a lower
                          > safety level) so I didn't need to bother trying it.

                          I'm sure it would work just fine - my only reservation
                          is the (small) possibility that when you need it most
                          the release mechanism may be hard to find.

                          > Personally I've never been that badly thrashed by the
                          > relatively docile ARC. In fact I seem to have progressed
                          > beyond bad thrashings with inflatables too.

                          Well I'm FAR behind you there - though the thrashing that
                          I did get was when I was still feeling out the range and
                          I took my 1120 out way overpowered - not to mention I was
                          still a real novice at the time.

                          And I also carry around the results of getting a bit
                          overconfident on my paraglider when as a competition pilot
                          with many hours logged I thought I could handle anything my
                          glider could throw at me. Well one day I found that my glider
                          had many more tricks up its sleeve than I'd imagined and now
                          I'm about 3/4 shorter. :( So since I always have a bit of
                          trepidation about the problems I can't even imagine I rarely
                          pass up an opportunity to protect myself as well as possible-
                          within reason - against the chaos that I can imagine.


                          > ..I've NEVER felt the need to release from the leash itself,
                          > which would eliminate the need for the second snap shackle

                          I've also never YET felt the need to release from the
                          leash itself, but you know the rest ...

                          Steve T.



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                        • thorpes@arklogic.com
                          ... L4 & L5 :( Steve T.
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 1, 2001
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                            --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Steve Thorpe wrote,
                            >
                            > Well one day I found that my glider
                            > had many more tricks up its sleeve than I'd imagined and now
                            > I'm about 3/4 shorter. :(
                            >
                            > 3/4 shorter = crushed vertebra?
                            >

                            L4 & L5 :(


                            Steve T.
                          • Kitepower
                            Me too I used to 6 11 , now I m only 5 5 I ve lost about an inch!! :-) T7,T8,L1,L2,L3 and L4 Cya and Goodwinds Steve McCormack http://www.kitepower.com.au
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 2, 2001
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                              Me too I used to 6'11", now I'm only 5'5" I've lost about an inch!! :-)
                              T7,T8,L1,L2,L3 and L4

                              Cya and
                              Goodwinds
                              Steve McCormack
                              http://www.kitepower.com.au
                              mailto:sydney@...
                              126 Beach St, Coogee, NSW, Australia 2034
                              Open 7 Days 9.30 - 5.30
                              Also at 386 Latrobe Terrace Geelong Vic
                              mailto:geelong@...

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: thorpes@... [mailto:thorpes@...]
                              Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2001 4:16
                              To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [ksurf] Re: Arc and Quadrifoil bar


                              --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <kitepower@b...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Steve Thorpe wrote,
                              >
                              > Well one day I found that my glider
                              > had many more tricks up its sleeve than I'd imagined and now
                              > I'm about 3/4 shorter. :(
                              >
                              > 3/4 shorter = crushed vertebra?
                              >

                              L4 & L5 :(


                              Steve T.


                              This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com
                              For Kitesurfers by Kitesurfers

                              http://www.KiteHigh.com

                              Win Board or Cabrinha Kite sweepstakes on now.

                              1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA
                              808 579 9849
                              Email:support@...

                              <<<to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>

                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • Stefano Rosso
                              ... Has ANYONE actually ever released a snap shackle in a REAL emergency situation ? I got some friends that are getting shackle happy but in all my kitemares
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 3, 2001
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                                >
                                > > ..I've NEVER felt the need to release from the leash itself,
                                > > which would eliminate the need for the second snap shackle
                                >
                                > I've also never YET felt the need to release from the
                                > leash itself, but you know the rest ...

                                Has ANYONE actually ever released a snap shackle in a REAL emergency
                                situation ?

                                I got some friends that are getting shackle happy but in all my kitemares i
                                get lifted, thrashed so damn bad that my ONLY reaction is to hang onto the
                                bar... and this makes a lot of sense when i am anything over 10 feet
                                up...which is normally where i find myself after i come to my senses after
                                the initial GRIP of DEATH reaction !
                              • Roland Andrag
                                ... Yes, I was sailing upwind of a really ugly barbed wire fence (running into the water to seperate someone s property from the launching area), lost my egde
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 3, 2001
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                                  >
                                  > Has ANYONE actually ever released a snap shackle in a REAL emergency
                                  > situation ?

                                  Yes, I was sailing upwind of a really ugly barbed wire fence (running into
                                  the water to seperate someone's property from the launching area), lost my
                                  egde at exactly the wrong moment, pulled the snap shackle and stopped 2 m
                                  from the fence. If I'd been in the chicken loop (or locked in the wipika
                                  loop!) I would most probably have been hurt, hitting the fence right about
                                  when I would have been powering up to release.

                                  Roland
                                • thorpes@arklogic.com
                                  ... My comment ( and I though Mel s too) was refering to the total kite- release snap shackle - not the leash shackle. I definitely HAVE used the leash
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 3, 2001
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                                    --- In kitesurf@y..., Stefano Rosso <stefano@o...> wrote:

                                    Mel wrote:
                                    > > > ..I've NEVER felt the need to release from the leash itself,
                                    > > > which would eliminate the need for the second snap shackle

                                    Steve T. wrote:
                                    > > *I've also never YET felt the need to release from the
                                    > > leash itself, but you know the rest ...
                                    >
                                    > Has ANYONE actually ever released a snap shackle in a REAL
                                    > emergency situation ?
                                    >
                                    > I got some friends that are getting shackle happy but in all
                                    > my kitemares i get lifted, thrashed so damn bad that my ONLY
                                    > reaction is to hang onto the bar...

                                    My comment ( and I though Mel's too) was refering to the total kite-
                                    release snap shackle - not the "leash" shackle. I definitely HAVE
                                    used the leash shackle a couple of times - before I'd "mastered" the
                                    downwind launch on my Arcs I used it one when I started getting
                                    dragged dangerously close to a rock levee. A second time when I
                                    started getting tea-bagged in suddenly overpowered conditions - in
                                    about 1 ft of water! After two lucky landings I decided that pulling
                                    leash shackle was a good idea.

                                    As far as the total release shackle is concerned - yes I know that
                                    kind of emergency is rare--crashing on to a car passing in a parking
                                    lot (seen it happen) getting completely tangled in someone elses kite
                                    which then takes off at full power- removing your steering AND leash
                                    options in one go (seen it happen) but for a $20 shackle why take the
                                    risk of being permanently and irreversibly attached to the kite?

                                    Of course if you use a regular wrist or harness mounted leash you
                                    don't need a "leashing" shackle and if you don't ride permenaently
                                    attached to the kite you don't need a total-release shackle.

                                    Steve T.
                                  • Stefano Rosso
                                    ... Me too ! ... I agree totally... but i have some friends that are getting too confident because they now have shackles (leash, loop whatever) seems to me
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Sep 4, 2001
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                                      >
                                      > > I got some friends that are getting shackle happy but in all
                                      > > my kitemares i get lifted, thrashed so damn bad that my ONLY
                                      > > reaction is to hang onto the bar...
                                      >
                                      > My comment ( and I though Mel's too) was refering to the total kite-
                                      > release snap shackle - not the "leash" shackle.

                                      Me too !


                                      > I definitely HAVE
                                      > used the leash shackle a couple of times - before I'd "mastered" the
                                      > downwind launch on my Arcs I used it one when I started getting
                                      > dragged dangerously close to a rock levee. A second time when I
                                      > started getting tea-bagged in suddenly overpowered conditions - in
                                      > about 1 ft of water! After two lucky landings I decided that pulling
                                      > leash shackle was a good idea.
                                      >
                                      > As far as the total release shackle is concerned - yes I know that
                                      > kind of emergency is rare--crashing on to a car passing in a parking
                                      > lot (seen it happen) getting completely tangled in someone elses kite
                                      > which then takes off at full power- removing your steering AND leash
                                      > options in one go (seen it happen) but for a $20 shackle why take the
                                      > risk of being permanently and irreversibly attached to the kite?

                                      I agree totally... but i have some friends that are getting too confident
                                      because they now have shackles (leash, loop whatever)

                                      seems to me that the most sensible thing is not to ride upwind of barbed wire
                                      !! doesnt matter if you have a shackle or not !
                                    • Roland Andrag
                                      ... wire ... I agree fully with that statement. Basically I was making it back to the landing area in a fading wind, and had lost a lot of ground on the way
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Sep 4, 2001
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                                        > seems to me that the most sensible thing is not to ride upwind of barbed
                                        wire
                                        > !! doesnt matter if you have a shackle or not !

                                        I agree fully with that statement. Basically I was making it back to the
                                        landing area in a fading wind, and had lost a lot of ground on the way in,
                                        hence did not have the 200 m buffer normally kept. I had the choice of
                                        stopping before the fence or after, and wrongly decided to push on past it
                                        (since I was going well and it was the home stretch of 30 m), very dumb.
                                        Gust hits, edge goes, water spraying everywhere, did not know where the
                                        fence was until I had stopped, having pulled the leash shackle. Was glad I
                                        had the shackle. Also shackle played no role in my deciding to pass the
                                        fence (although if I didn't have a shackle I would probably have unhooked
                                        from the chicken loop, since I was fully aware I was doing something
                                        stupid).

                                        Roland
                                      • thorpes@arklogic.com
                                        ... I guess this is what differentiates good kitesurfers from bad - the bad ones don t know when they re doing something stupid ;-) Steve T.
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Sep 4, 2001
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                                          --- In kitesurf@y..., "Roland Andrag" <randrag@i...> wrote:

                                          >... Also shackle played no role in my deciding to pass
                                          > the fence ...

                                          >...I was fully aware I was doing something stupid.


                                          I guess this is what differentiates good kitesurfers from
                                          bad - the bad ones don't know when they're doing something
                                          stupid ;-)

                                          Steve T.
                                        • jmullmd@home.com
                                          ... Sometimes the more foolish ones are easily identified by the bandages, casts, duct tape, cervical halos, staples, clips and joint immobilizers they are
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Sep 4, 2001
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                                            --- In kitesurf@y..., thorpes@a... wrote:
                                            > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Roland Andrag" <randrag@i...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >... Also shackle played no role in my deciding to pass
                                            > > the fence ...
                                            >
                                            > >...I was fully aware I was doing something stupid.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I guess this is what differentiates good kitesurfers from
                                            > bad - the bad ones don't know when they're doing something
                                            > stupid ;-)
                                            >
                                            > Steve T.

                                            Sometimes the more foolish ones are easily identified by the
                                            bandages, casts, duct tape, cervical halos, staples, clips and joint
                                            immobilizers they are wearing at the beach...the kind of thing our
                                            buddy Traig wears around nearly every day of his injury-prone life.

                                            John
                                          • Mel
                                            ... Once again, better to hover low (away from land in this case!), then you just get dragged instead of lifted. I launch inflatables in thigh deep water, &
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Sep 5, 2001
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                                              <thorpes@...> wrote:

                                              > I definitely HAVE
                                              > used the leash shackle a couple of times ... A second time when I
                                              > started getting tea-bagged in suddenly overpowered conditions - in
                                              > about 1 ft of water! After two lucky landings I decided that pulling
                                              > leash shackle was a good idea.

                                              Once again, better to hover low (away from land in this case!), then you
                                              just get dragged instead of lifted. I launch inflatables in thigh deep
                                              water, & if I get lifted I fly the kite out, so I land planing on the water,
                                              instead of a hard surface (like shallow water).

                                              > As far as the total release shackle ...
                                              > getting completely tangled in someone elses kite ...

                                              Oh yeah! Thanks. I hadn't thought about that in a while, even though I try
                                              to remember to use that as an example of why to use a leash (for those who
                                              think they don't need it just because THEY have good skills).

                                              > if you don't ride permenaently
                                              > attached to the kite you don't need a total-release shackle.

                                              I guess, but in order to be equally safe, you'd still need a trim loop
                                              shackle.

                                              Mel
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