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Re: [ksurf] Flap Or Zip ( Arc)

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  • Mel
    ... Well there you have it. I guess if they start coming from the factory with zips, Velcro will be the new popular modification (since they ll already be
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 31, 2001
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      <damon@...> wrote:

      > I have had my 840 crash into the beach ( after a big wipeout ) and
      > yes the Velcro valve opened and deflated the kite

      > Another friend with a 840 with a zip has had lots of problem with
      > sand in the zip as well as it bursting at the seams after a crash, I
      > know what I like best :-))

      Well there you have it. I guess if they start coming from the factory with
      zips, Velcro will be the new popular modification (since they'll already be
      wedged).

      Yesterday I was giving some ARC pointers to an inflatable advocate who's
      interested, & since I didn't tell him how to close the Velcro (I'd shown him
      how to fold the flap in to allow air entry), he just sealed it with the flap
      inside, so my idea of moving the Velcro to permit that isn't really needed.
      You can just tuck the flap in & the Velcro is practically perfectly located
      for sealing like that (just a little wrinkling on the ends, but better than
      the big "burrito" roll). I'd think this would be much more aerodynamic, but
      would likely prevent pressure release in a bad crash, since the flap should
      seal as well as the LE valves (which also don't release pressure).

      Mel
    • thorpes@arklogic.com
      ... I don t know where this big burrito roll of yours comes from. I have a very nice tight roll after sealing on both the 1120 and 840. On the 1120 the roll
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 31, 2001
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        --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
        > ..(just a little wrinkling on the ends, but better than
        > the big "burrito" roll). I'd think this would be much
        > more aerodynamic,

        I don't know where this "big burrito roll" of yours comes
        from. I have a very nice tight roll after sealing on both
        the 1120 and 840. On the 1120 the roll does end up underneath
        as you recommend. In any case it would be an extremely easy
        mod on the new kites to move the velcro strips so you can
        make the roll end up underneath.

        > but would likely prevent pressure release in a bad crash,
        > since the flap should seal as well as the LE valves (which
        > also don't release pressure).

        I'm sure they would blow out just as easily if the ends weren't
        sewn to the kite skin.

        Steve T.
      • Mel
        ... It s really not all that bad, but it offends my sense of efficiency (like a dragging board leash). I wouldn t want that hanging off the back of my board.
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 31, 2001
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          <thorpes@...> wrote:

          > I don't know where this "big burrito roll" of yours comes
          > from.

          It's really not all that bad, but it offends my sense of efficiency (like a
          dragging board leash). I wouldn't want that hanging off the back of my
          board. It's much less aerodynamic than tucking it inside.

          > On the 1120 the roll does end up underneath
          > as you recommend. In any case it would be an extremely easy
          > mod on the new kites to move the velcro strips so you can
          > make the roll end up underneath.

          True, & I'm having it done to my 840. Is your 1120 (roll on bottom) older
          or newer than your 840? (roll on top)

          > > but would likely prevent pressure release in a bad crash,
          > > since the flap should seal as well as the LE valves (which
          > > also don't release pressure).
          >
          > I'm sure they would blow out just as easily if the ends weren't
          > sewn to the kite skin.

          I'd rather not find out the hard way. Damon indicated the kite can get
          damaged before the LE vents release pressure. Tucking the TE vent inside
          the kite should be exactly the same, since just like the LE vents it has one
          end of the tube sewn to the kite skin, & the other end not sewn to the kite
          skin. Am I missing something?

          Mel
        • thorpes@arklogic.com
          ... Older ... Yes, if you try to invert a LE valve by hand ( I realize you can t try that on the new meshed ones ) you find you can t do it. The free end of
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 31, 2001
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            --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:

            >... Is your 1120 (roll on bottom) older or newer
            > than your 840? (roll on top)

            Older
            > Tucking the TE vent inside the kite should be exactly
            > the same, since just like the LE vents it has one
            > end of the tube sewn to the kite skin, & the other end
            > not sewn to the kite skin. Am I missing something?

            Yes, if you try to invert a LE valve by hand ( I realize
            you can't try that on the new meshed ones ) you find you
            can't do it. The "free" end of the inlet is sewn to the top
            surface about 2 feet back from the LE. Obviously not sewn
            all the way through the vent - just on the surface adjacent
            to the kte skin and just enough of a stitch hold it in
            place - and stop it inverting under pressure. I think on
            the new, large vent kites it's not sewn directly to the
            skin but connected with a length of line to the seam, further
            back - having the same effect though - making it almost (if
            not totally) impossible to blow out under pressure.
            I may be wrong but I think your inverted butt-hole idea would
            blow out long before the burrito roll.


            Steve T.
          • Mel
            ... So Peter Lynn switched from roll on bottom to roll on top, where it s harder to work with and less aerodynamic. I wonder if there s a reason. ... I d
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 31, 2001
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              <thorpes@...> wrote:

              > Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
              >
              > >... Is your 1120 (roll on bottom) older or newer
              > > than your 840? (roll on top)
              >
              > Older

              So Peter Lynn switched from roll on bottom to roll on top, where it's harder
              to work with and less aerodynamic. I wonder if there's a reason.

              > The "free" end of the inlet is sewn to the top
              > surface ... stop it inverting under pressure.

              I'd think the mesh would accomplish that.

              > I may be wrong but I think your inverted butt-hole idea would
              > blow out long before the burrito roll.

              I understand your theory now (thanks). That would be cool. Anybody
              volunteer to fold their flap in, seal the Velcro, & crash LE down? If it
              does blow out long before the roll* then no damage would result, but it
              could mean it will pre-release during use. The solution could be wider
              Velcro. Peter Lynn could experiment & we'd end up with cleaner TEs that
              release under just the right pressure. It would still allow use of my idea
              to Velcro mesh into the valve to reduce sand entry, but allow it's removal.
              *Maybe I should have said "eggroll" - that's a closer size.

              Mel
            • thorpes@arklogic.com
              ... Maybe it would to some extent but if the valve partially inverted can you imagine what a job it might be to get it back into position with the mesh
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 31, 2001
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                > <thorpes@a...> wrote:

                > > The "free" end of the inlet is sewn to the top
                > > surface ... stop it inverting under pressure.

                --- Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:

                > I'd think the mesh would accomplish that.

                Maybe it would to some extent but if the valve partially
                inverted can you imagine what a job it might be to get
                it back into position with the mesh preventing you
                from getting your hand inside.

                > ...Anybody volunteer to fold their flap in, seal the
                Velcro, & crash LE down?

                I don't volunteer to crash my kite for any reason but I'd
                be willing to bet I can blow an "inverted" butt-hole by
                just sitting hard on the fully inflated kite - I'll try
                it next time out and let you know.

                Steve T.
              • Mel
                ... Thank you. Maybe try the same thing with the eggroll, to make sure it doesn t release under the same conditions, because if it DOES, then we can just seal
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 31, 2001
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                  <thorpes@...> wrote:

                  > I'd
                  > be willing to bet I can blow an "inverted" butt-hole by
                  > just sitting hard on the fully inflated kite - I'll try
                  > it next time out and let you know.

                  Thank you. Maybe try the same thing with the eggroll, to make sure it
                  doesn't release under the same conditions, because if it DOES, then we can
                  just seal them inverted & not have to bother with rolling or causing that
                  extra drag.

                  Mel
                • bnow@earthlink.net
                  I just bet if an extra Velcro strip were added to the inside of the flap material, so that you would first seal the end of the flap, and then roll it up and
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 31, 2001
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                    I just bet if an extra Velcro strip were added to the inside of the
                    flap material, so that you would first seal the end of the flap, and
                    then roll it up and seal the existing Velcro flap, that it would do
                    the trick. In fact it may be just about right to accomplish two
                    things. The butthole Velcro may still come undone on a hard impact
                    allowing a small pressure relief to mitigate bursting the kite, but
                    the second Velcro that would probably survive the initial blast so
                    that you can still fly the kite home. You could even experiment to
                    make the flap long enough to allow for more pressure relief if
                    needed. The other thing if you are not concerned about pressure
                    relief is to just replace the standard Velcro with earthquake
                    Velcro. I can almost guarantee that stuff would not come loose under
                    warp speed crashes. For those who have never seen earthquake Velcro,
                    it is very heavy duty and uses a different type of connection other
                    than the standard hook and loop Velcro. You can usually find it at a
                    hardware store. It is commonly used to secure TV's to their stand,
                    and strap them down in case of an earthquake.


                    --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                    > <thorpes@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > I'd
                    > > be willing to bet I can blow an "inverted" butt-hole by
                    > > just sitting hard on the fully inflated kite - I'll try
                    > > it next time out and let you know.
                    >
                    > Thank you. Maybe try the same thing with the eggroll, to make sure
                    it
                    > doesn't release under the same conditions, because if it DOES, then
                    we can
                    > just seal them inverted & not have to bother with rolling or
                    causing that
                    > extra drag.
                    >
                    > Mel
                  • jmullmd@home.com
                    ... Mark, Forest fires, mudslides, bug farts, earthquakes.....the California kitesurfer sure has lots to contend with. The Arizona kitesurfer has it
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 31, 2001
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                      --- In kitesurf@y..., bnow@e... wrote:
                      > The other thing if you are not concerned about pressure
                      > relief is to just replace the standard Velcro with earthquake
                      > Velcro. It is commonly used to secure TV's to their stand,
                      > and strap them down in case of an earthquake.

                      Mark,

                      Forest fires, mudslides, bug farts, earthquakes.....the California
                      kitesurfer sure has lots to contend with.

                      The Arizona kitesurfer has it made...except for a lack of wind and
                      water occurring in the same place at the same time...

                      John
                    • Mel
                      ... You ve given me another idea (by initially misinterpreting what you wrote). If you don t like to roll, but it ends up pre-releasing if you just tuck the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 31, 2001
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                        <bnow@...> wrote:

                        > I just bet if an extra Velcro strip were added to the inside of the
                        > flap material, so that you would first seal the end of the flap, ...

                        You've given me another idea (by initially misinterpreting what you wrote).
                        If you don't like to roll, but it ends up pre-releasing if you just tuck the
                        flap in & shut the stock Velcro, I wonder about Velcro on the very END of
                        the flap (where you first start rolling).

                        >...the second Velcro that would probably survive the initial blast so
                        > that you can still fly the kite home. You could even experiment to
                        > make the flap long enough to allow for more pressure relief if
                        > needed.

                        That's an interesting idea too. Maybe instead of a bigger flap you could
                        just put some holes in it - big enough to prevent damage, but small enough
                        to fly home.

                        > The other thing if you are not concerned about pressure
                        > relief is to just replace the standard Velcro with earthquake
                        > Velcro. I can almost guarantee that stuff would not come loose under
                        > warp speed crashes.

                        It sounds like what's called "dual lock" Velcro as used to keep SpeedMate
                        board speedometers on the board. If you use that, you shouldn't need a
                        flap, just the opening that gets sealed shut while flying.

                        Maybe no flap, a small piece of dual lock in the center of the opening, &
                        normal Velcro on the rest. Alter the proportions of dual to regular for
                        correct release (still won't help you get home after release though, but
                        neither does the stock system).

                        Mel
                      • bnow@earthlink.net
                        Mel I don t know what you thought I meant, but when you said I wonder about Velcro on the very END of the flap (where you first start rolling ; that is indeed
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 1, 2001
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                          Mel

                          I don't know what you thought I meant, but when you said "I wonder
                          about Velcro on the very END of the flap (where you first start
                          rolling"; that is indeed the idea I was trying to express. A sail
                          maker could sew the Velcro on in about two minutes flat.

                          Mark





                          <bnow@e...> wrote:

                          > I just bet if an extra Velcro strip were added to the inside of
                          the flap material, so that you would first seal the end of the
                          flap, ...
                          --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                          You've given me another idea (by initially misinterpreting what you
                          wrote). If you don't like to roll, but it ends up pre-releasing if
                          you just tuck the flap in & shut the stock Velcro, I wonder about
                          Velcro on the very END of the flap (where you first start rolling).
                        • sjybhunter@westnet.com.au
                          I have just put a piece of velco straping in the trailing edge to hold in the middle of the flap on the back of my 1120. Hopfully in a big crash it will blow
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 1, 2001
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                            I have just put a piece of velco straping in the trailing edge to
                            hold in the middle of the flap on the back of my 1120. Hopfully in a
                            big crash it will blow out either end and hold the midlle in so as
                            not to release all the pressure. the bum blow out has only happened
                            a couple of times in the 9 months I have had the kite.

                            Just got the 1120 wedged, not enough wind today to try it out it will
                            be interesting to see how it goes up against the 14.9 RRD as they
                            have simular projected areas. I also picked up a 460 arc today for
                            my wife(honest its for you honey) couldnt help it it was just there
                            in the shop whispering shane buy me buy me and i will take you to the
                            moon. We flew it in the park in 6-8 knots man does it generate some
                            pull when you crank it around and build that apparent wind.

                            I will let ya know how the velcro thing works out.

                            cheers shane
                          • Mel
                            ... With the flap extended outside the kite for deflation, you could put Velcro at the rearmost part where you start rolling, &/or at the foremost part, level
                            Message 13 of 13 , Sep 1, 2001
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                              <bnow@...> wrote:

                              > Mel
                              >
                              > I don't know what you thought I meant, but when you said "I wonder
                              > about Velcro on the very END of the flap (where you first start
                              > rolling"; that is indeed the idea I was trying to express.

                              With the flap extended outside the kite for deflation, you could put Velcro
                              at the rearmost part where you start rolling, &/or at the foremost part,
                              level with the TE.

                              AND <sjybhunter@...> wrote:

                              > Just got the 1120 wedged, not enough wind today to try it out it will
                              > be interesting to see how it goes up against the 14.9 RRD
                              How did the stock 1120 compare?

                              Please let us know your wedged results also.

                              > as they
                              > have similar projected areas.

                              I've just uploaded the latest area spreadsheet, including projected areas &
                              corrected flat spans for wedged ARCs (with or without one or three center
                              cells removed also).

                              1120 (8.0 proj) wedged 12cm. is 1107 (7.9 proj.).
                              14.9 is about 8.4 proj.

                              At 6% smaller, I think the 1107 will have less low end, since the 630 has
                              less than a 7.5 Naish which is only 4% bigger, & wedging shouldn't improve
                              low end much. I'm really curious about the top end though.

                              Mel
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