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[kitesurf] Kite performance - ridgid vs inflatable

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  • Terese Roeseler
    ... I disagree Bruno. I think this new ring-thing and makelist.com deal is super, and we should use it in any and every way possible to send get information
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 2, 1998
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      Bruno wrote:

      >I think this mail list is not for manufacturers and
      >distributors to make their promotion and specially to talk about
      >competition. You never heard me talking on the net about Kiteski nor
      >comparing these different kites and you will never hear about.
      >Please let us users discussing together.


      I disagree Bruno. I think this new ring-thing and makelist.com deal is
      super, and we should use it in any and every way possible to send get
      information to the corners of the world via internet. I only wish my
      website was as good as yours.

      Since there are so few kite surfers and kiteskiers in the world and even
      fewer users who have sailed both Kiteski and Wipika on the water, I think
      the challenge is to inform the interested newcomer of the advantages and
      disadvantages of each system. I have been trying to organize open kiteski
      kitesurf competitions since '95 when we met at the ESPN Extreme games where
      you courageously entered with a Wipika powered sit-ski and unofficially
      placed 4th behind 3 Kiteskis in very light wind.

      I enjoyed flying your Wipika then on the beach, and again, last year when
      Mike Waltze loaned me his for 30 minutes in 20 kts wind on Maui. Both
      times, I enjoyed the automatic launching and the stable flight
      characteristics. However, I share the opinion of your fellow frenchmen and
      very talented kite surfer (and "Champion de France" on buggies), Laurent
      Ness, that a rigid kite performs better upwind. You can pump a rigid kite
      for many times the power to get through a lull, or to make snappy jumps.
      With a soft kite you are left with that mushy feel that wants to pull
      down-wind. ...on the water.

      Perhaps things are different on land, and I admire your excellent history of
      success with Wipika powered buggies.

      If the Maui boys can really pull off the 4th annual
      Kiteski/kiteboard/kitesurf World Championships, this year, the outcome will
      be very interesting. I'm behind it 100%. I agree with you on this one!

      We should all acknowledge, however, that Flash won the World Championship
      Wave-sailing event last year with a 4 line Sky Tiger and a strap surf board.
      He won it with spirit and vigor, so the specifications of his equipment were
      meaningless.

      Best wind!

      Cory



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    • Raul F Argilagos
      Hi! By the way, did anybody find out what the outcome was for the kitesurf portion of the Pistol river wave bash last week? Raul
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 2, 1998
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        Hi!
        By the way, did anybody find out what the outcome was for the
        kitesurf portion of the Pistol river wave bash last week?
        Raul

        _____________________________________________________________________
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      • Ian Young
        ... Bruno, I m afraid I disagree with you on several counts. Firstly although I distribute KiteSki in Australia I feel that I am very impartial - as you may
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 2, 1998
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          > Please don't worry but I think this mail list is not for manufacturers and
          > distributors to make their promotion and specially to talk about
          > competition. You never heard me talking on the net about Kiteski nor
          > comparing these different kites and you will never hear about.
          > Please let us users discussing together.

          Bruno,

          I'm afraid I disagree with you on several counts. Firstly although I
          distribute KiteSki in Australia I feel that I am very impartial - as you
          may recall I also offered to be your agent in Australia but you were the
          one who declined because I also deal in KiteSki!

          I believe that this sport has a great future and I am very keen to see
          it develop through an open discussion of the technical strengths and
          weaknesses of all options within the sport. As I have never had the
          opportunity to try a Wipika I was keen to hear from those who have.

          Although I admire your impressive achievements with Wipika's and
          buggies, my primary interest (and that of this discussion group) is to
          learn through sharing our common interest in kite surfing/ skiing.

          One of my pursuits is to try and make the sport as easy to learn and as
          attractive as possible to a wide audience. The two key components to
          achieving this I believe are to minimise the time spent re-launching the
          kite in deep water and the ability to get back to the point on the beach
          from where you started - hence my questions.

          I hope I do not offend you, but I am still keen to hear the opinions of
          others in this group.

          Cheers,
          Ian

          WinDesigns Australia:
          9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
          Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
          Mobile: 0414 716 812
          Email: IanYoung@...
          Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/


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        • Bruno Legaignoux
          ... OK, I think the Mail Manager and subscribers have to decide. Please guys, tell what you think. Personally it is not my idea of the Internet. People which
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 2, 1998
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            Terese Roeseler wrote:

            > Bruno wrote:

            > >I think this mail list is not for manufacturers and
            > >distributors to make their promotion and specially to talk about
            > >competition.
            >
            > I disagree Bruno. I think this new ring-thing and makelist.com deal is
            > super, and we should use it in any and every way possible to send get
            > information to the corners of the world via internet.

            OK, I think the Mail Manager and subscribers have to decide. Please
            guys, tell
            what you think.
            Personally it is not my idea of the Internet. People which want
            information
            about my products can visit my site. They are free to go or not.
            I don't want to worry so, promised, this is my last reply about these
            kinds of
            things.

            > I have been trying to organize open kiteski
            > kitesurf competitions since '95 when we met at the ESPN Extreme games where
            > you courageously entered with a Wipika powered sit-ski and unofficially
            > placed 4th behind 3 Kiteskis in very light wind.

            Old memory, isn't it ! Sure that the rule which forbade floating
            boards/boats
            didn't give me the possibility to really compete (not more than 5 liters
            or
            something else)
            Anyhow, this race allowed my first visit of the USA and I made it almost
            freely
            thanks to the price money. Cool!
            As I didn't want to ski (and was not trained), I designed and built a
            seat-ski 3
            weeks before coming.
            Yeah, really a good memory! Thanks for your invitation and welcome.

            > With a soft kite you are left with that mushy feel that wants to pull
            > down-wind. ...on the water.

            Please don't say these kind of things now just from the few experiences
            you had.
            Races will give the answer.
            If we compare paragliders and hang-gliders which are very similar to
            soft kites
            and rigid spar kites: the difference is smaller and smaller between
            them, and
            even when the difference was large, paragliders had a lot more success
            than
            hang-gliders. It doesn't need one quality to make a good product but as
            many
            qualities as possible.

            > We should all acknowledge, however, that Flash won the World Championship
            > Wave-sailing event last year with a 4 line Sky Tiger and a strap surf board.
            > He won it with spirit and vigor, so the specifications of his equipment were
            > meaningless.

            Now he only uses Wipika wings, as Mike Waltze, Sierra Emori, Rush Randle
            and 95%
            of the Hawaiian boys. I met him in May at Maui. He stays on the same
            spot for 2
            hours making tricks and jumps on the waves then going upwind. The jumps
            he makes
            are unbelievable (I will not tell the height because nobody will believe
            me!)
            We are more and more numerous going upwind and I feel the progresses we
            have to
            make are more on the boards than on the kites.
            It is easy to explain why: when I use a parakart (buggy) or a dinghy or
            a trifoiler or any other boat with a good hull and a good centerboard, I
            go upwind just like with any classic dinghy (around 45° on each side of
            the wind - I dinghy raced for 10 years).
            However, the usual Wipika wings are a basic model, very stable and easy
            to fly
            because 99% of the users are entering the sport. Twelve years ago we
            made high
            aspect ratio Wipika type wings and we'll make new ones when the market
            will ask
            for them.

            Best regards
            Bruno

            ========================================================
            WIPIKA - Dominique & Bruno Legaignoux
            26, rue Eugene Boudin - 29000 QUIMPER - FRANCE
            Phone : (33) 2 9890 8379 Fax : (33) 2 9852 1618
            http://www.wipika.com e-mail : wipika@...
            =========================================================




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          • Cory Roeseler
            ... You are right. I should get more time on the water with a Wipika wing. Perhaps after the competition on Maui. I was expanding on comments made by Mr.
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 2, 1998
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              Bruno wrote:
              >Please don't say these kind of things now just from the few experiences
              >you had.

              You are right. I should get more time on the water with a Wipika wing.
              Perhaps after the competition on Maui. I was expanding on comments made by
              Mr. Ness, the star of your instruction video, who responded to the question
              of rigid kite vs inflatable by saying the Wipika is:

              "Not as good you need good sailing technique"

              Bruno wrote:
              >Races will give the answer.

              I agree 100%.

              Bruno wrote:
              >It doesn't need one quality to make a good product but as
              >many
              >qualities as possible.


              Yes!
              >
              >> We should all acknowledge, however, that Flash won the World Championship
              >> Wave-sailing event last year with a 4 line Sky Tiger and a strap surf
              board.
              >> He won it with spirit and vigor, so the specifications of his equipment
              were
              >> meaningless.


              The jumps
              >he makes
              >are unbelievable (I will not tell the height because nobody will believe
              >me!)

              I believe you! Aren't kites great?

              >We are more and more numerous going upwind and I feel the progresses we
              >have to
              >make are more on the boards than on the kites.

              Yes, let's invite the board builders to participate in this discussion.

              Bruno, I hope you are not offended by the points I make. I enjoy a healthy
              debate, and I only engage with those who have earned my respect. You have
              an excellent product and a very impressive list of achievements. Keep up
              the good work and keep the dialogue open.

              Warmest regards,

              Cory



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            • Laurent Ness - Axel'Air
              Hello everybody, I think I have to intoduce myself also ! I manage my flysurf kite-shop down south of France. I began flysurfing completely on my own with
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 3, 1998
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                Hello everybody,

                I think I have to intoduce myself also !
                I manage my flysurf kite-shop down south of France.
                I began flysurfing completely on my own with large delta kites 6 years ago going
                down wind.
                Saw an article in american kite a few years ago and bought the kiteski package.
                I found it too difficult in my wind (too gusty or too light ) and gave up ! I
                used a lot the kiteski mono-board with the deltas.
                Won the 97 french buggy championship and made second at the euro championship.

                I work with Raphael Salles (windsurf champion) on developping special flysurf
                boards since 96.
                3 models available.
                I sell wipika. Maybe the best french retailer. Am I wrong Bruno ?

                If you want to put a face on this lines, have a look at the wipika kite.

                To Ian
                One of my pursuits is to try and make the sport as easy to learn and as

                > attractive as possible to a wide audience. The two key components to
                > achieving this I believe are to minimise the time spent re-launching the
                > kite in deep water and the ability to get back to the point on the beach
                > from where you started - hence my questions.

                Maybe best to send me an e-mail on my private -mail so we talk about all
                that..--
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Laurent Ness Axel'Air Champion de France 97
                Specialiste Char, Flysurf, Traction...
                rue St Clair 34280 Carnon Ouest
                tel 04 67 50 62 60 fax 04 67 68 54 25
                e-mail: axelair@...
                et bientot .... axelair.com
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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              • Laurent Ness - Axel'Air
                ... PLease let me know, I will believe you ! ... -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Laurent Ness Axel Air Champion de France
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 3, 1998
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                  > The jumps
                  > >he makes
                  > >are unbelievable (I will not tell the height because nobody will believe
                  > >me!)

                  PLease let me know, I will believe you !

                  > Laurent



                  --
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  Laurent Ness Axel'Air Champion de France 97
                  Specialiste Char, Flysurf, Traction...
                  rue St Clair 34280 Carnon Ouest
                  tel 04 67 50 62 60 fax 04 67 68 54 25
                  e-mail: axelair@...
                  et bientot .... axelair.com
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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                • Cory Roeseler
                  Laurent, Tell me about your jibe footwork. I noticed in the Wipika video that (in flat water) you walk through the jibe like a windsurfer. Is this the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 3, 1998
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                    Laurent,

                    Tell me about your jibe footwork. I noticed in the Wipika video that (in
                    flat water) you "walk" through the jibe like a windsurfer. Is this the
                    technique that you teach to new flysurfers?

                    Cory


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Laurent Ness - Axel'Air <axelair@...>
                    To: kitesurf@... <kitesurf@...>
                    Date: Friday, July 03, 1998 1:31 AM
                    Subject: Re: [kitesurf] Kite performance - ridgid vs inflatable


                    >Hello everybody,
                    >
                    >I think I have to intoduce myself also !
                    >I manage my flysurf kite-shop down south of France.
                    >I began flysurfing completely on my own with large delta kites 6 years ago
                    going
                    >down wind.
                    >Saw an article in american kite a few years ago and bought the kiteski
                    package.
                    >I found it too difficult in my wind (too gusty or too light ) and gave up !
                    I
                    >used a lot the kiteski mono-board with the deltas.
                    >Won the 97 french buggy championship and made second at the euro
                    championship.
                    >
                    >I work with Raphael Salles (windsurf champion) on developping special
                    flysurf
                    >boards since 96.
                    >3 models available.
                    >I sell wipika. Maybe the best french retailer. Am I wrong Bruno ?
                    >
                    >If you want to put a face on this lines, have a look at the wipika kite.
                    >
                    >To Ian
                    >One of my pursuits is to try and make the sport as easy to learn and as
                    >
                    >> attractive as possible to a wide audience. The two key components to
                    >> achieving this I believe are to minimise the time spent re-launching the
                    >> kite in deep water and the ability to get back to the point on the beach
                    >> from where you started - hence my questions.
                    >
                    >Maybe best to send me an e-mail on my private -mail so we talk about all
                    >that..--
                    >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    > Laurent Ness Axel'Air Champion de France 97
                    > Specialiste Char, Flysurf, Traction...
                    > rue St Clair 34280 Carnon Ouest
                    > tel 04 67 50 62 60 fax 04 67 68 54 25
                    > e-mail: axelair@...
                    > et bientot .... axelair.com
                    >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >To unsubscribe, email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@...
                    >To subscribe, email to kitesurf-subscribe@...
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                  • Rolf V. Oestergaard
                    Hi, Don t forget to support the new web index NewHoo at www.newhoo.com with comments and sugestions. They now have a growing kitesailing subject under sports.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 3, 1998
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                      Hi,

                      Don't forget to support the new web index NewHoo at www.newhoo.com with
                      comments and sugestions. They now have a growing kitesailing subject under
                      sports.

                      Have fun,

                      -=-=-
                      Rolf V. Østergaard, Stockholmsgade 21.2.th, DK-2100 Kbh. Ø, Denmark
                      mailto:rolf@... http://www.godset.dk/kiteski Tel: +45 3525 1330




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                    • Laurent Ness - Axel'Air
                      ... First you take the back footstrap out, second you push on your toesThen you jibe and when you are backside you can make a small jump or walk. Either
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 3, 1998
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                        Cory Roeseler wrote:

                        > Laurent,
                        >
                        > Tell me about your jibe footwork. I noticed in the Wipika video that (in
                        > flat water) you "walk" through the jibe like a windsurfer. Is this the
                        > technique that you teach to new flysurfers?
                        >
                        > Cory
                        >
                        > ---

                        First you take the back footstrap out, second you push on your toesThen you jibe
                        and when you are backside you can make a small jump or walk. Either technique
                        works.
                        ~~~~~~~~
                        Laurent
                        Today 20 knots but I go for lessons can't sail too much
                        myself~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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                      • drpearce@bigpond.com
                        I started off using action foils, and i found that they were very hard to land in the water even when you do eat shit. I fyou have good control when you go
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 3, 2000
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                          I started off using action foils, and i found that they were very
                          hard to land in the water even when you do eat shit. I fyou have
                          good control when you go down, they seem to sit up there and follow
                          you. To right though when they hit the water, hard to get up, unless
                          you actually act quick and no waves present. I now fly cquads and
                          they are great, water relaunching is not easy. Once again, if it
                          goes straight in top or bottom pretty easy. But i still find through
                          reading and watching, not many kites are easyto relaunch from water,
                          actually none are. Until we get some science in realuanching with a
                          bitton, we shall just have to fly much more efficient, and dont
                          forget everyone eats shit at some time.....












                          --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, Ian Young <IanYoung@i...> wrote:
                          > How have people found the comparitive upwind performance of kites
                          with
                          > inflatable leading edges such as the "Wipika" compared with
                          > ridgid frame kites?
                          >
                          > How much success have people had relaunching inflatable kites from
                          the
                          > water, particularly if they are two line kites?
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > Ian Young
                          >
                          > WinDesigns Australia:
                          > 9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
                          > Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                          > Mobile: 0414 716 812
                          > Email: IanYoung@i...
                          > Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/
                          >
                          > Army:
                          > Phone: +61 8 9383 0660
                          > Fax: +61 8 9383 0593
                          >
                          >
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