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Re: [ksurf] Rules -PASS TO PORT-

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  • Rainer Leuschke
    ... I don t know what ocean you are sailing on but the international rules for prevention of collisions at sea apply to sailing vessels (incl. kiters) EXACTLY
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 1, 2001
      On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 janwcoffey@... wrote:

      > Sailing rules have been the same for quite some time. This particular
      > You allways,,,AllWays....ALWAYS!!! -PASS TO PORT-

      I don't know what ocean you are sailing on but the international rules for
      prevention of collisions at sea apply to sailing vessels (incl.
      kiters) EXACTLY as Mel has stated. Starboard has to hold course, port
      has to take avoiding action, going either upwind or downwind of
      starboard, jibing or stopping, whatever it takes.

      The story you have mentioned involves power boats in restricted waters
      (channel) moving directly at each other (i.e. it's impossible to tell who
      has whom to his right). Only in that case does your fav rule "pass to
      port" apply.

      R!
    • Rainer Leuschke
      Oh, here are THE RULES: http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/boating/colregs.html Rule 12: Sailing Vessels ..... for kites Rule 14: Head-on Situation .....
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 1, 2001
        Oh, here are THE RULES:
        http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/boating/colregs.html
        Rule 12: Sailing Vessels ..... for kites
        Rule 14: Head-on Situation ..... for munitions freighters

        Also Rule 8: Action to Avoid Collision....note the wording "...ample time
        and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship". For a port
        tacker to pass in front of a starboard tackers bow by a few yards is not
        considered good seamanship and the starboard tacker would have good reason
        to give the port tacker a talking to, even if the port tacker did take the
        action and avoided a collision. Unfortunately "good seamanship" often goes
        out the window in testosterone driven windsports.

        R!

        On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Rainer Leuschke wrote:

        >
        > On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 janwcoffey@... wrote:
        >
        > > Sailing rules have been the same for quite some time. This particular
        > > You allways,,,AllWays....ALWAYS!!! -PASS TO PORT-
        >
        > I don't know what ocean you are sailing on but the international rules for
        > prevention of collisions at sea apply to sailing vessels (incl.
        > kiters) EXACTLY as Mel has stated. Starboard has to hold course, port
        > has to take avoiding action, going either upwind or downwind of
        > starboard, jibing or stopping, whatever it takes.
        >
        > The story you have mentioned involves power boats in restricted waters
        > (channel) moving directly at each other (i.e. it's impossible to tell who
        > has whom to his right). Only in that case does your fav rule "pass to
        > port" apply.
      • kiter@waverat.com
        Mel s got it right. The dogmatic pass port-to-port rule is not nearly dynamic enough to deal with the idiosyncracies of kitesurfing. There s no way you can
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 1, 2001
          Mel's got it right. The dogmatic "pass port-to-port" rule is not
          nearly dynamic enough to deal with the idiosyncracies of kitesurfing.
          There's no way you can say "just pass port to port" and everything
          will be fine. You do not "always pass port to port." That's extremely
          unrealistic and will get you into trouble. That's not realistic for
          high-speed watersports. It will not work. I can easily think up common
          examples where this would clearly not be safe. Passing port to port is
          a small piece of the right of way rules that is only applied in
          certain conditions (usually a dead-ahead collision course).
          On open water, starboard holding it's course and port altering course
          is a time tested proven set of rules that has worked for a long time
          sailboats and sailboards. In surf, these rules are obviously modified
          as they are in windsurfing wavesailing. Most importantly, everyone has
          to be adhering to the same set of rules and also be willing to apply
          common sense in ambiguous situations.
          - Matt

          --- In kitesurf@y..., janwcoffey@y... wrote:
          > Sailing rules have been the same for quite some time. This
          particular
          > issue has been the cause of many collisions including one that set
          off
          > the largest man made explosion ever. (no it was not a nuke)
          >
          > You allways,,,AllWays....ALWAYS!!! -PASS TO PORT-
          >
          > You would think after a whole city is demolished that everyone would
          > remember this.
          >
          > Tack, Starboard or Port: A boat is on the tack, starboard or port,
          > corresponding to her windward side.
          >
          > This means that if you are way upwind of someone on a port tack that
          > is going to, or even might, meet with someone on a starboard tack
          you
          > STILL have to turn downwind of them. This may suck real bad for you
          > because the person on the starboard tack is not riding as up-wind as
          > you would like, but that is what you are supposed to do.
          >
          > If the person on the starboard tack were going downwind then you
          > wouldn't have to worry about it, because you are already not on a
          > crossing course.
          >
          > I don't know why a few people want to make this difficult when it is
          > as easy as remembering
          >
          > "pass to port my port to their port"
          >
          > That way no one has to guess at what is going to happen. That is
          what
          > the rule is for, so that everyone knows -exactly- what will happen.
          If
          > you give either vessel a choice then it spoils the rule!
          >
          > now everyone say it,
          >
          > "pass to port"
          > "pass to port"
          > "pass to port"
          > "pass to port"
          > "pass to port"
          > "pass to port"
          > "pass to port"
          > "pass to port"
          >
          > it's just like driving in America.
          >
          > > According to sailing rules... is actually required to MAINTAIN HIS
          > COURSE,
          > ...
          > until the port tack vessel is clearly DOWNWIND!
          >
          > > I mention this because back when I windsurfed I upset some people
          >
          > I can imagine. Kind of like that French munitions captain upset some
          > people. Only ...they were DEAD.
          >
          > >when I was on port & rounded up to pass upwind of them, but nearly
          > collided
          > >because they altered their course to try to pass upwind of me.
          They
          > got upset
          > > because they thought they had the right to pass upwind & I was
          > required to
          > > pass downwind. In reality, they only had the right to maintain
          > course, & I
          > > was only required to avoid them (which I still ended up doing).
          >
          > well, I guess you showed them. You must have felt proud to have
          proved
          > your point. No matter that it was endangering others on more than
          one
          > occasion.
          >
          > > That said, the safest thing to do if you're on starboard, & the
          > approaching
          > > rider doesn't make his intentions clear, is ROUND UP.
          >
          > Kind of like what those angry people did?
          >
          > >Then if he doesn't
          > > bear off, ROUND UP MORE. If he STILL doesn't bear off, ROUND UP
          > EVEN MORE.
          > > The reason for this is that while you may be approaching a
          > collision, at
          > > least you'll be slowing down (visualize the reverse situation:
          > bearing off
          > > until you finally collide at full speed!)
          > >
          >
          >
          > Mel, I like and -respect-- you. You just pulled one of my levers.
          This
          > is a real pet peeve of mine.
          >
          > Pass To Port: that way no one has to guess at what is going to
          happen.
          > That is what the rule is for, so that everyone knows -exactly- what
          > will happen. If you give either vessel a choice then it spoils the
          > rule!
          >
          > Those angry people were right. They did exactly what you say you
          would
          > have done. Because the way they understand the rule is -pass to
          > port-. That is the only way the rule leaves no question in anyone's
          > mind what the port tack vessel is going to do. If everyone knows who
          > is going where then there will never be a collision. The starboard
          > tack vessel "captain" never has to be in a situation where he or she
          > feels as if they were playing chicken.
        • kiter@waverat.com
          The fundamental flaw in your reasoning is that you are talking about supertankers and we are talking about kiteboards. Reread my post carefully, you back up my
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 1, 2001
            The fundamental flaw in your reasoning is that you are talking about
            supertankers and we are talking about kiteboards. Reread my post
            carefully, you back up my points in your post.
            - Matt

            --- In kitesurf@y..., janwcoffey@y... wrote:
            > Come one man. You got to be kidding!
            >
            > Think about it. What captain in his right mind wants to play chicken
            > with some hotshot on a port tack that thinks he has time to get
            > upwind.
            >
            > The hold the course part of the rule is so that if the one on the
            port
            > tack is heading down wind but alters his course so that there will
            be
            > no crossing of paths the rule would then no longer apply.
            >
            > Think about it, if you're on a starboard tack and someone is
            climbing
            > toward you or coming head on, you do NOT want to have to guess at
            what
            > they are going to do. By the time they do it you will not have time
            to
            > react. Likewise the guy on the port tack doesn't want to have to
            guess
            > at what you will do. He doesn't what to have to worry about you
            > turning downwind, so you should hold your course until the other
            > vessel is no longer going to cross.
            >
            > Now say you are on a port tack going downwind in a path that will
            > cross the path of a vessel on a starboard tack. If you turn upwind
            you
            > will no longer be crossing the other vessels path so the rule will
            not
            > apply. Likewise the other vessel shouldn't force this choice on you
            by
            > turning downwind or upwind. So they should hold course. However, if
            > you get close enough without altering course then you can bet the
            guy
            > on the starboard tack is going to start "rounding-up" and then you
            > must pass to port.
            >
            > This is where all the accidents happen. If you're close enough for
            it
            > to be an issue, you pass to port. If you turn your starboard side
            > early enough then it isn't an issue. But this is only when you are
            on
            > a port tack and you are heading downwind. If you are going upwind
            you
            > must pass to port.
            >
            > Don't make this complicated. It is very simple. Starboard tack has
            > right of way. So if you are on a port tack heading upwind then you
            > must bear off downwind and pass to port because otherwise you might
            > cut it too short and make the starboard tack vessel turn downwind.
            > That is not right of way!
            >
            > If on the other hand you are on a port tack heading down wind then
            you
            > can turn upwind way ahead of time, which would mean that the rule
            > wouldn't apply. Once you get close enough though the starboard tack
            > vessel is going to try and help you get out of his way by turning
            > upwind (just like Mel said). If you are that close then you should
            > pass to port anyway because the only way that should happen is if
            you
            > are coming head on in which case you don't want to make the other
            guy
            > play chicken with you.
            >
            > So to reiterate, the only time you get to pass to starboard is if
            you
            > are coming downwind on a port tack at a high angle to a vessel on a
            > starboard tack and you turn upwind real early. But then what you
            > really did was alter your course so that the rule doesn't apply.
            >
            > So the rule is correct. If there is any question "Pass To Port, My
            > Port To His Port"
            >
            > --- In kitesurf@y..., Rainer Leuschke <rainer@u...> wrote:
            > >
            > > On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 janwcoffey@y... wrote:
            > >
            > > > Sailing rules have been the same for quite some time. This
            > particular
            > > > You allways,,,AllWays....ALWAYS!!! -PASS TO PORT-
            > >
            > > I don't know what ocean you are sailing on but the international
            > rules for
            > > prevention of collisions at sea apply to sailing vessels (incl.
            > > kiters) EXACTLY as Mel has stated. Starboard has to hold course,
            > port
            > > has to take avoiding action, going either upwind or downwind of
            > > starboard, jibing or stopping, whatever it takes.
            > >
            > > The story you have mentioned involves power boats in restricted
            > waters
            > > (channel) moving directly at each other (i.e. it's impossible to
            > tell who
            > > has whom to his right). Only in that case does your fav rule "pass
            > to
            > > port" apply.
            > >
            > > R!
          • Greg Walsh
            I called right of way once 20 years ago as a new sailboarder and nearly got run over by an old bastard in his racing keel boat. Never again. Rules suck. Much
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 1, 2001
              I called right of way once 20 years ago as a new sailboarder and
              nearly got run over by an old bastard in his racing keel boat. Never
              again. Rules suck.

              Much more useful to be able to gauge your relative progress against a
              potential obstacle and take evasive action from 50-100 metres away.

              Line the boat or kiter up against a feature on the horizon. If
              they're approaching you then you probably won't make it upwind of
              them. If they're receding then you will.
            • callum@dr.com
              ... Never ... Had the same problem, But I raised the nose of my boar a little and put it through the hull of his boat - ohh well he was in the wrong!! I never
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 1, 2001
                --- In kitesurf@y..., "Greg Walsh" <gregwal@e...> wrote:
                > I called right of way once 20 years ago as a new sailboarder and
                > nearly got run over by an old bastard in his racing keel boat.
                Never
                > again. Rules suck.

                Had the same problem, But I raised the nose of my boar a little and
                put it through the hull of his boat - ohh well he was in the wrong!!
                I never changed course either!! He was pissed though..... Especially
                when I just bounced off and kept on sailing!!

                The stakes are a bit higher when your behind a kite though!!
              • Rainer Leuschke
                ... Read the colregs carefully! (http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/boating/colregs.html). You have no right to hit anybody. Right of way exists on the
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 1, 2001
                  On Thu, 2 Aug 2001 callum@... wrote:

                  > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Greg Walsh" <gregwal@e...> wrote:
                  > > I called right of way once 20 years ago as a new sailboarder and
                  > > nearly got run over by an old bastard in his racing keel boat.
                  > Never
                  > > again. Rules suck.
                  >
                  > Had the same problem, But I raised the nose of my boar a little and
                  > put it through the hull of his boat - ohh well he was in the wrong!!
                  > I never changed course either!! He was pissed though..... Especially
                  > when I just bounced off and kept on sailing!!

                  Read the colregs carefully!
                  (http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/boating/colregs.html). You
                  have no right to hit anybody. "Right of way" exists on the road and
                  between sailboats that race (and even there they taken the right to hit
                  somebody out of the rule book).
                  Rule 16 and 17 of the colregs state pretty clearly what the two parties on
                  a collision course should do. If the old bastard invokes his bigger boat
                  "rule" on you, shrug and take avoiding action (17 a ii). Then turn around
                  and give him the finger.
                  R!
                • Rainer Leuschke
                  ... That s what the intent of the colregs is. To have a set of rules that makes it clear what avoiding action to take when you have plenty time to do so. I
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 1, 2001
                    On Thu, 2 Aug 2001 janwcoffey@... wrote:
                    > The point isn't to have a rule for what to do if your far appart
                    > andhave plenty of time to alter course.

                    That's what the intent of the colregs is. To have a set of rules that
                    makes it clear what avoiding action to take when you have plenty time to
                    do so. I take avoiding action 100m or further away from another kiter on a
                    collision course, much further with boats. That doesn't mean I don't get
                    close to others but only once it is clear what side I'm going to pass them
                    on.

                    > The point is to have a rule
                    > for what to do when ther isn't enough time to think about it.

                    If I should find myself in that situation (and on port), I will most
                    certainly not bear off to increase my speed. That's like playing russian
                    roulette, as I have no idea whether the star board tacker will not bear
                    off in the same instant. There are more sailors out there that have no
                    clue about rules and there are plenty more that think they know the rules.
                    Bearing off...no thank you I'll round up and loose as much speed as I can
                    (rule 17 b btw)

                    R!
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