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Re: [ksurf] Re: Reel bars and launching Big kites

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  • Mel
    ... Mine is one of the old 6 sheeting model, & it s 33.5 (85cm) between the lines. Mel
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 27 9:43 PM
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      <sammy@...> wrote:

      > Can anybody tell me what the bar length is for the Flowbee? (rear
      > line to rear line.)

      Mine is one of the "old" 6" sheeting model, & it's 33.5" (85cm) between the
      lines.

      Mel
    • sammy@mailops.com
      Thanks Mel. I was thinking about getting one to use with my ARCs but 33.5 may be too short for the bigger ARCs. Although, I wonder what would happen if I
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 28 4:25 AM
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        Thanks Mel. I was thinking about getting one to use with my ARCs but
        33.5" may be too short for the bigger ARCs. Although, I wonder what
        would happen if I 'crossed over' the front lines on the Flowbee.
        Since the front lines don't come to the center of the Flowbee, I
        might be able to get a longer effective bar length that way.

        So, how far apart are those center reels?

        Thanks,
        Sammy

        --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
        > <sammy@m...> wrote:
        >
        > > Can anybody tell me what the bar length is for the Flowbee? (rear
        > > line to rear line.)
        >
        > Mine is one of the "old" 6" sheeting model, & it's 33.5" (85cm)
        between the
        > lines.
        >
        > Mel
      • mbartell@forwardtech.com
        FYI, I fly the 1120 and 840 ARCs on a 80cm / 31.5 Airush bar. They turn great. Seems that 33.5 would be fine. I would be more worried about not having a
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 28 6:55 AM
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          FYI,

          I fly the 1120 and 840 ARCs on a 80cm / 31.5" Airush bar. They turn
          great. Seems that 33.5 would be fine. I would be more worried about
          not having a sheeting adjustment strap. I assume a reel does not have
          one?


          --- In kitesurf@y..., sammy@m... wrote:
          > Thanks Mel. I was thinking about getting one to use with my ARCs
          but
          > 33.5" may be too short for the bigger ARCs. Although, I wonder
          what
          > would happen if I 'crossed over' the front lines on the Flowbee.
          > Since the front lines don't come to the center of the Flowbee, I
          > might be able to get a longer effective bar length that way.
          >
          > So, how far apart are those center reels?
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Sammy
          >
          > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
          > > <sammy@m...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Can anybody tell me what the bar length is for the Flowbee?
          (rear
          > > > line to rear line.)
          > >
          > > Mine is one of the "old" 6" sheeting model, & it's 33.5" (85cm)
          > between the
          > > lines.
          > >
          > > Mel
        • sammy@mailops.com
          That s interesting. Most people I ve talked to use a 36 bar for the larger ARCs (I use a 38 myself right now). If 31.5 works for you then the Flowbee
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 28 10:31 AM
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            That's interesting. Most people I've talked to use a 36" bar for the
            larger ARCs (I use a 38" myself right now). If 31.5" works for you
            then the Flowbee might work just fine.

            The Flowbee doesn't have an adjustment strap (AFAIK) just the chicken
            loop. I think you may be able to lock the chicken loop (sorta like
            the Ken Winner 'Sheet Cleat' thing), but I'm not sure.

            I was thinking of setting the ARC up with short leaders on the rear
            attachment points, and setting my basic AOA when I rig up, then use
            the chicken loop if I have to on the water. Definitly a compromise,
            but since a reelbar would many times be the differance between
            getting on the water or not, I may be willing to live with it.

            Sammy

            --- In kitesurf@y..., mbartell@f... wrote:
            > FYI,
            >
            > I fly the 1120 and 840 ARCs on a 80cm / 31.5" Airush bar. They turn
            > great. Seems that 33.5 would be fine. I would be more worried about
            > not having a sheeting adjustment strap. I assume a reel does not
            have
            > one?
            >
            >
            > --- In kitesurf@y..., sammy@m... wrote:
            > > Thanks Mel. I was thinking about getting one to use with my ARCs
            > but
            > > 33.5" may be too short for the bigger ARCs. Although, I wonder
            > what
            > > would happen if I 'crossed over' the front lines on the Flowbee.
            > > Since the front lines don't come to the center of the Flowbee, I
            > > might be able to get a longer effective bar length that way.
            > >
            > > So, how far apart are those center reels?
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > > Sammy
            > >
            > > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
            > > > <sammy@m...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > Can anybody tell me what the bar length is for the Flowbee?
            > (rear
            > > > > line to rear line.)
            > > >
            > > > Mine is one of the "old" 6" sheeting model, & it's 33.5" (85cm)
            > > between the
            > > > lines.
            > > >
            > > > Mel
          • Mel
            ... They re at 4 1/8 centers (10.5cm) so they d increase the effective length to nearly 38 or 96cm (I just re-measured in better light, & the end spools are
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 28 1:34 PM
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              <sammy@...> wrote:

              > Since the front lines don't come to the center of the Flowbee, I
              > might be able to get a longer effective bar length that way.
              >
              > So, how far apart are those center reels?
              >

              They're at 4 1/8" centers (10.5cm) so they'd increase the effective length
              to nearly 38" or 96cm (I just re-measured in better light, & the end spools
              are on 33 3/4" centers or 86cm)

              Mel
            • twosouls1@yahoo.com
              Before buying a reel bar for the ARC s, you should know that when reeling out the lines from the bar, they come out un-even... The brake lines for some reason
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 28 8:58 PM
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                Before buying a reel bar for the ARC's, you should know that when
                reeling out the lines from the bar, they come out un-even... The
                brake lines for some reason get pulled in many inches more then the
                leaders causing the kite to sit on the ground until the lines are let
                all the way out... I used to fly my arc with the flowbee and then
                switched back to a Naish bar because I realized I still had to let
                out most of the line before the kite would even think about being in
                the air...

                Gary



                --- In kitesurf@y..., sammy@m... wrote:
                > That's interesting. Most people I've talked to use a 36" bar for
                the
                > larger ARCs (I use a 38" myself right now). If 31.5" works for you
                > then the Flowbee might work just fine.
                >
                > The Flowbee doesn't have an adjustment strap (AFAIK) just the
                chicken
                > loop. I think you may be able to lock the chicken loop (sorta like
                > the Ken Winner 'Sheet Cleat' thing), but I'm not sure.
                >
                > I was thinking of setting the ARC up with short leaders on the rear
                > attachment points, and setting my basic AOA when I rig up, then use
                > the chicken loop if I have to on the water. Definitly a
                compromise,
                > but since a reelbar would many times be the differance between
                > getting on the water or not, I may be willing to live with it.
                >
                > Sammy
                >
                > --- In kitesurf@y..., mbartell@f... wrote:
                > > FYI,
                > >
                > > I fly the 1120 and 840 ARCs on a 80cm / 31.5" Airush bar. They
                turn
                > > great. Seems that 33.5 would be fine. I would be more worried
                about
                > > not having a sheeting adjustment strap. I assume a reel does not
                > have
                > > one?
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In kitesurf@y..., sammy@m... wrote:
                > > > Thanks Mel. I was thinking about getting one to use with my
                ARCs
                > > but
                > > > 33.5" may be too short for the bigger ARCs. Although, I wonder
                > > what
                > > > would happen if I 'crossed over' the front lines on the
                Flowbee.
                > > > Since the front lines don't come to the center of the Flowbee,
                I
                > > > might be able to get a longer effective bar length that way.
                > > >
                > > > So, how far apart are those center reels?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks,
                > > > Sammy
                > > >
                > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                > > > > <sammy@m...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > Can anybody tell me what the bar length is for the
                Flowbee?
                > > (rear
                > > > > > line to rear line.)
                > > > >
                > > > > Mine is one of the "old" 6" sheeting model, & it's 33.5"
                (85cm)
                > > > between the
                > > > > lines.
                > > > >
                > > > > Mel
              • Mel
                ... to let ... Maybe not such a problem on the new version with 11 of sheeting range? (sheet out to compensate for short rear lines) Mel
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 28 10:49 PM
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                  <twosouls1@...> wrote:

                  > Before buying a reel bar for the ARC's, you should know that when
                  > reeling out the lines from the bar, they come out un-even... I still had
                  to let
                  > out most of the line before the kite would even think about being in
                  > the air...

                  Maybe not such a problem on the new version with 11" of sheeting range?
                  (sheet out to compensate for short rear lines)

                  Mel
                • sammy@mailops.com
                  Hmmm. So the outside lines (on the bar) are shorter than the inside lines when reeling out. (Can anyone tell me how much shorter?) But, pulling in the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 29 5:48 AM
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                    Hmmm. So the outside lines (on the bar) are shorter than the inside
                    lines when reeling out. (Can anyone tell me how much shorter?) But,
                    pulling in the chicken loop, even while reeling out, will shorten the
                    center lines. So do the outside lines also get shorter when reeling
                    in? (I think I better talk to someone at Flowbee before getting one).

                    Sammy

                    --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                    > <twosouls1@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Before buying a reel bar for the ARC's, you should know that when
                    > > reeling out the lines from the bar, they come out un-even... I
                    still had
                    > to let
                    > > out most of the line before the kite would even think about being
                    in
                    > > the air...
                    >
                    > Maybe not such a problem on the new version with 11" of sheeting
                    range?
                    > (sheet out to compensate for short rear lines)
                    >
                    > Mel
                  • Mel
                    ... I don t think they re familiar with the ARC, since their bar is designed specifically for inflatables. If you do speak with them, ALWAYS refer to the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 29 1:21 PM
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                      <sammy@...> wrote:

                      > (I think I better talk to someone at Flowbee before getting one).

                      I don't think they're familiar with the ARC, since their bar is designed
                      specifically for inflatables. If you do speak with them, ALWAYS refer to
                      the lines as front & back, because they're one of the VERY misleading
                      reverse terminology group (they call the front lines brakes).

                      What happens with any reel is the line under least tension reels in the
                      fastest, since none have line tensioners (that I know of). This is because
                      with less tension, it stays bigger on the spool, & the bigger the spool, the
                      faster it reels in, & the faster it reels in, the bigger the spool, ...
                      ("snowball" effect). In other words, if the lines are the correct length
                      when they're all the way out, the further you reel in an ARC (with virtually
                      no rear line tension) the shorter the rear lines will get, relative to the
                      front lines. Of course they also reel out faster, but that only means that
                      they're back to correct again once you're reeled all the way out again.

                      Like I mentioned before, if they really do have 11" of sheeting range now,
                      that could well be enough to compensate. In other words, if it's set
                      perfectly when reeled out, as you reel in you could gradually sheet out to
                      keep it at the perfect setting. You might want to have some pigtails on the
                      kite, so you could pre-adjust for different wind conditions, or for
                      different line lengths.

                      I just had another idea: if you want to ride at different line lengths, say
                      between 20 & 30m, you could adjust it to be perfect at 25. Then it would
                      only be off by half as much at either extreme.

                      Here's another idea! Maybe the best yet! Try using different DIAMETER
                      lines on the front & back. This is rather standard for ARC-only bars, but
                      highly unusual for inflatables. Let's do inflatables first: Since you need
                      at least 500lb lines front & back, you'd need to use the fattest lines on
                      the front (Q-Power 600?, Lazer Pro 800?) & thinner ones on the back (Lazer
                      Pro 500?).

                      For ARCs: If you use 600lb on the front, & 300lb on the back, the lines may
                      already reel in at the same rate! Maybe you'd need 500 on the front & 400
                      on the back, or Lazer Pro on the front & Q-Power on the back, or vice versa,
                      but I bet between all the brands & weights of line there'd be one combo that
                      would work.

                      It shouldn't take all that much costly experimentation either. I think you
                      could use whatever lines you have, fly the kite with full length lines, have
                      somebody catch it & measure the line length difference (front-to-back),
                      launch it again & reel it in as normal (while flying), & see how much the
                      line length difference has changed. For example if they're equal all the
                      way out at 30m, & the backs are 3m shorter when reeled all the way in, the
                      next step would be to find rear lines that are about 10% thinner (I found
                      cheap $5 plastic vernier calipers at the local hardware).

                      Mel
                    • sammy@mailops.com
                      ... designed ... refer to ... misleading ... Yeah, misleading to say the least. I do want to ask about the 11 of sheetig range though. ... the ... because
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 29 2:14 PM
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                        --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                        > <sammy@m...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > (I think I better talk to someone at Flowbee before getting one).
                        >
                        > I don't think they're familiar with the ARC, since their bar is
                        designed
                        > specifically for inflatables. If you do speak with them, ALWAYS
                        refer to
                        > the lines as front & back, because they're one of the VERY
                        misleading
                        > reverse terminology group (they call the front lines brakes).

                        Yeah, misleading to say the least. I do want to ask about the 11" of
                        sheetig range though.

                        >
                        > What happens with any reel is the line under least tension reels in
                        the
                        > fastest, since none have line tensioners (that I know of). This is
                        because
                        > with less tension, it stays bigger on the spool, & the bigger the
                        spool, the
                        > faster it reels in, & the faster it reels in, the bigger the
                        spool, ...
                        > ("snowball" effect). In other words, if the lines are the correct
                        length
                        > when they're all the way out, the further you reel in an ARC (with
                        virtually
                        > no rear line tension) the shorter the rear lines will get, relative
                        to the
                        > front lines. Of course they also reel out faster, but that only
                        means that
                        > they're back to correct again once you're reeled all the way out
                        again.

                        Now that makes sense. I was really wondering why they would reel at
                        different rates. Of course, I could set up my lines on the reelbar
                        at home with one weight for all 4 lines and get all 4 the same length
                        reeled on for my initial launch at least. But, when I launched the
                        ARC reeled in, I wonder if those front line spools of line might
                        compress on the reel leading to the same problem (worth a shot I
                        think).

                        >
                        > Like I mentioned before, if they really do have 11" of sheeting
                        range now,
                        > that could well be enough to compensate.

                        <snipped some good stuff>

                        Hopefully they do have 11" now and that might do the trick.

                        > Here's another idea! Maybe the best yet! Try using different
                        DIAMETER
                        > lines on the front & back. This is rather standard for ARC-only
                        bars, but
                        > highly unusual for inflatables.

                        <snipped lots of good stuff>

                        That's a great idea, Mel. Calls for some experimentation, but it's
                        better than just sitting on the shore. Thanks a lot for all the help
                        and ideas.

                        Sammy
                      • Mel
                        ... Let us know what they say, & maybe also find out if the old version can be upgraded. Mel
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 29 4:01 PM
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                          <sammy@...> wrote:

                          > I do want to ask about the 11" of
                          > sheetig range though.

                          Let us know what they say, & maybe also find out if the old version can be
                          upgraded.

                          Mel
                        • sammy@mailops.com
                          Well, I spoke to a rep at Flowbee today. The 11 sheeting range listed on their website is wrong. It s about 6 (as several here have said). Looks like it s
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 30 2:41 PM
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                            Well, I spoke to a rep at Flowbee today. The 11" sheeting range
                            listed on their website is wrong. It's about 6" (as several here
                            have said). Looks like it's back to the drawing board for me.

                            Sammy

                            --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                            > <sammy@m...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > I do want to ask about the 11" of
                            > > sheetig range though.
                            >
                            > Let us know what they say, & maybe also find out if the old version
                            can be
                            > upgraded.
                            >
                            > Mel
                          • Mel
                            ... I already posted the measurements. ... I don t think so, unfortunately. I sent mine in for the internal mod, & it was returned immediately. The latest
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 1, 2001
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                              <mark.elliott@...> wrote:

                              > I'll check the measurement next time Im out at the lake.

                              I already posted the measurements.

                              > Flowbee has
                              > had several modifications. Ive only sent mine in for the first mods,
                              > something internal. The other two they notified me of I have not yet
                              > sent in to have them done. Could be the additional sheeting range you
                              > spoke of.

                              I don't think so, unfortunately. I sent mine in for the internal mod, & it
                              was returned immediately. The latest notice only mentioned a delrin
                              replacement for the brake knob, & instructions for how to install short
                              leaders, so they can be replaced easily where they wear against the
                              fairleads.

                              Mel
                            • mdelliott@waco.expresspersonnel.com
                              ... mods, ... yet ... you ... mod, & it ... short ... Bummer, I really like the reel here on a heavily wooded lake but with the gusty winds and my lack of
                              Message 14 of 15 , May 1, 2001
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                                --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                                > <mark.elliott@e...> wrote:
                                >
                                >>
                                > > Flowbee has
                                > > had several modifications. Ive only sent mine in for the first
                                mods,
                                > > something internal. The other two they notified me of I have not
                                yet
                                > > sent in to have them done. Could be the additional sheeting range
                                you
                                > > spoke of.
                                >
                                > I don't think so, unfortunately. I sent mine in for the internal
                                mod, & it
                                > was returned immediately. The latest notice only mentioned a delrin
                                > replacement for the brake knob, & instructions for how to install
                                short
                                > leaders, so they can be replaced easily where they wear against the
                                > fairleads.
                                >
                                > Mel

                                Bummer, I really like the reel here on a heavily wooded lake but
                                with the gusty winds and my lack of skill on a floaty directional I
                                like the sheeting range on my regular bars. They did say they were
                                working on something other than the tube over the line safety depower.
                                Mel, do you use your reel? I would think you wouldnt bother with
                                your sand beaches(assuming) and experience, at the cost of sheeting
                                range. Did you get your big blue floaty looking things with that last
                                mod? Didnt think floatation would be helpful until last week when the
                                bar was yanked from my hands in shallow water and by the time I got
                                to it the coating of our sticky gritty mud was in all four reels. Was
                                pleased to hear they were providing free. MARK
                              • Mel
                                ... I don t use it. When I bought it I didn t realize reeling in requires flying the kite overhead, which is impossible here, due to the gustiness (yes, it is
                                Message 15 of 15 , May 1, 2001
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                                  <mdelliott@...> wrote:

                                  > Mel, do you use your reel? I would think you wouldnt bother with
                                  > your sand beaches(assuming) and experience, at the cost of sheeting
                                  > range.

                                  I don't use it. When I bought it I didn't realize reeling in requires
                                  flying the kite overhead, which is impossible here, due to the gustiness
                                  (yes, it is SO gusty it is actually impossible). I'd planned to build a
                                  sheeting system (& I have an idea I'm pretty sure would work) but now
                                  there's no point. My main goal was to be able to shorten the lines for
                                  quicker kite handling, while still being able to let them back out again
                                  when the wind drops, to regain low end range. Landing solo* IS a real pain
                                  here, because it's so gusty, but I've become pretty good at landing nose
                                  down in front of a bit of white water.
                                  *the broad wind range AND lower riding effort of MelMods with bungie harness
                                  lines means everybody else is nearly always long gone by the time I'm
                                  landing.

                                  > Did you get your big blue floaty looking things with that last
                                  > mod? Was
                                  > pleased to hear they were providing free.

                                  I did not get them.

                                  Mel
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