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Re: [kitesurf] Kite performance - ridgid vs inflatable

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  • Laurent Ness - Axel'Air
    ... Not as good you need good sailing technique ... It depends the conditions it can go from 95 % to 20 in the waves ...
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 1, 1998
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      Ian Young wrote:

      > How have people found the comparitive upwind performance of kites with
      > inflatable leading edges such as the "Wipika" compared with
      > ridgid frame kites?

      Not as good you need good sailing technique

      >
      >
      > How much success have people had relaunching inflatable kites from the
      > water, particularly if they are two line kites?

      It depends the conditions it can go from 95 % to 20 in the waves

      >
      >

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Laurent Ness Axel'Air Champion de France 97
      Specialiste Char, Flysurf, Traction...
      rue St Clair 34280 Carnon Ouest
      tel 04 67 50 62 60 fax 04 67 68 54 25
      e-mail: axelair@...
      et bientot .... axelair.com
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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    • Bruno Legaignoux
      ... Hello Ian, Please don t worry but I think this mail list is not for manufacturers and distributors to make their promotion and specially to talk about
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 1, 1998
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        Ian Young wrote:

        > How have people found the comparitive upwind performance of kites with
        > inflatable leading edges such as the "Wipika" compared with ridgid frame
        > kites?

        Hello Ian,

        Please don't worry but I think this mail list is not for manufacturers and
        distributors to make their promotion and specially to talk about
        competition. You never heard me talking on the net about Kiteski nor
        comparing these different kites and you will never hear about.
        Please let us users discussing together.

        However, for this time, I'll reply your questions:
        Buggy race is actually the ONLY impartial way to compare kites (hopefully
        a kitesurf/kiteski world contest will be organized in September on Maui).
        When I raced in France, 2 and 3 years ago I won around half the national
        races. I made 9th (1st non-english) at the first Euro Parakart in ...
        England, and 7th at the second Euros (that I organized here in Brittany
        with 33 pilots from 8 countries)
        This year one pilot used exclusively Wipika wings and he got VERY good
        results - first, and second of the 3 national races he participated (but
        he didn't participate the french championships because of job/family).
        Why the other pilots don't use Wipika's ? I think, mainly because it is
        DIFFERENT.

        > How much success have people had relaunching inflatable kites from the
        > water, particularly if they are two line kites?

        I heard these questions from sceptical kiteskiers for years. I'm surprised
        you don't yet have sufficient informations about that.
        The reply is that with 15 knots wind or more, a 2 line wing relaunches
        itself WITHOUT YOUR HELP!
        That means that sometimes you fall and you are surprised that your wing is
        relaunching while you are catching and preparing your board!
        We made a test with a small Wipika (1m²) with a 20m SINGLE line between a
        boat and the 2 tip lines : we tossed it at sea 10 times, 10 times it
        relaunched alone from water after around 1 minut.
        >From 10 knots that is easy to relaunch it by actionning the lines/control
        bar.
        Except in waves/shore break the wing relaunch success is 100% by a trained
        pilot.
        With 7/8 knots a good pilot can yet relaunch it.

        I hope I convinced you.
        Best regards.
        Bruno
        ========================================================
        WIPIKA - Dominique & Bruno Legaignoux
        26, rue Eugene Boudin - 29000 QUIMPER - FRANCE
        Phone : (33) 2 9890 8379 Fax : (33) 2 9852 1618
        http://www.wipika.com e-mail : wipika@...
        =========================================================





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      • Terese Roeseler
        ... I disagree Bruno. I think this new ring-thing and makelist.com deal is super, and we should use it in any and every way possible to send get information
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 2, 1998
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          Bruno wrote:

          >I think this mail list is not for manufacturers and
          >distributors to make their promotion and specially to talk about
          >competition. You never heard me talking on the net about Kiteski nor
          >comparing these different kites and you will never hear about.
          >Please let us users discussing together.


          I disagree Bruno. I think this new ring-thing and makelist.com deal is
          super, and we should use it in any and every way possible to send get
          information to the corners of the world via internet. I only wish my
          website was as good as yours.

          Since there are so few kite surfers and kiteskiers in the world and even
          fewer users who have sailed both Kiteski and Wipika on the water, I think
          the challenge is to inform the interested newcomer of the advantages and
          disadvantages of each system. I have been trying to organize open kiteski
          kitesurf competitions since '95 when we met at the ESPN Extreme games where
          you courageously entered with a Wipika powered sit-ski and unofficially
          placed 4th behind 3 Kiteskis in very light wind.

          I enjoyed flying your Wipika then on the beach, and again, last year when
          Mike Waltze loaned me his for 30 minutes in 20 kts wind on Maui. Both
          times, I enjoyed the automatic launching and the stable flight
          characteristics. However, I share the opinion of your fellow frenchmen and
          very talented kite surfer (and "Champion de France" on buggies), Laurent
          Ness, that a rigid kite performs better upwind. You can pump a rigid kite
          for many times the power to get through a lull, or to make snappy jumps.
          With a soft kite you are left with that mushy feel that wants to pull
          down-wind. ...on the water.

          Perhaps things are different on land, and I admire your excellent history of
          success with Wipika powered buggies.

          If the Maui boys can really pull off the 4th annual
          Kiteski/kiteboard/kitesurf World Championships, this year, the outcome will
          be very interesting. I'm behind it 100%. I agree with you on this one!

          We should all acknowledge, however, that Flash won the World Championship
          Wave-sailing event last year with a 4 line Sky Tiger and a strap surf board.
          He won it with spirit and vigor, so the specifications of his equipment were
          meaningless.

          Best wind!

          Cory



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        • Raul F Argilagos
          Hi! By the way, did anybody find out what the outcome was for the kitesurf portion of the Pistol river wave bash last week? Raul
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 2, 1998
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            Hi!
            By the way, did anybody find out what the outcome was for the
            kitesurf portion of the Pistol river wave bash last week?
            Raul

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          • Ian Young
            ... Bruno, I m afraid I disagree with you on several counts. Firstly although I distribute KiteSki in Australia I feel that I am very impartial - as you may
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 2, 1998
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              > Please don't worry but I think this mail list is not for manufacturers and
              > distributors to make their promotion and specially to talk about
              > competition. You never heard me talking on the net about Kiteski nor
              > comparing these different kites and you will never hear about.
              > Please let us users discussing together.

              Bruno,

              I'm afraid I disagree with you on several counts. Firstly although I
              distribute KiteSki in Australia I feel that I am very impartial - as you
              may recall I also offered to be your agent in Australia but you were the
              one who declined because I also deal in KiteSki!

              I believe that this sport has a great future and I am very keen to see
              it develop through an open discussion of the technical strengths and
              weaknesses of all options within the sport. As I have never had the
              opportunity to try a Wipika I was keen to hear from those who have.

              Although I admire your impressive achievements with Wipika's and
              buggies, my primary interest (and that of this discussion group) is to
              learn through sharing our common interest in kite surfing/ skiing.

              One of my pursuits is to try and make the sport as easy to learn and as
              attractive as possible to a wide audience. The two key components to
              achieving this I believe are to minimise the time spent re-launching the
              kite in deep water and the ability to get back to the point on the beach
              from where you started - hence my questions.

              I hope I do not offend you, but I am still keen to hear the opinions of
              others in this group.

              Cheers,
              Ian

              WinDesigns Australia:
              9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
              Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
              Mobile: 0414 716 812
              Email: IanYoung@...
              Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/


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            • Bruno Legaignoux
              ... OK, I think the Mail Manager and subscribers have to decide. Please guys, tell what you think. Personally it is not my idea of the Internet. People which
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 2, 1998
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                Terese Roeseler wrote:

                > Bruno wrote:

                > >I think this mail list is not for manufacturers and
                > >distributors to make their promotion and specially to talk about
                > >competition.
                >
                > I disagree Bruno. I think this new ring-thing and makelist.com deal is
                > super, and we should use it in any and every way possible to send get
                > information to the corners of the world via internet.

                OK, I think the Mail Manager and subscribers have to decide. Please
                guys, tell
                what you think.
                Personally it is not my idea of the Internet. People which want
                information
                about my products can visit my site. They are free to go or not.
                I don't want to worry so, promised, this is my last reply about these
                kinds of
                things.

                > I have been trying to organize open kiteski
                > kitesurf competitions since '95 when we met at the ESPN Extreme games where
                > you courageously entered with a Wipika powered sit-ski and unofficially
                > placed 4th behind 3 Kiteskis in very light wind.

                Old memory, isn't it ! Sure that the rule which forbade floating
                boards/boats
                didn't give me the possibility to really compete (not more than 5 liters
                or
                something else)
                Anyhow, this race allowed my first visit of the USA and I made it almost
                freely
                thanks to the price money. Cool!
                As I didn't want to ski (and was not trained), I designed and built a
                seat-ski 3
                weeks before coming.
                Yeah, really a good memory! Thanks for your invitation and welcome.

                > With a soft kite you are left with that mushy feel that wants to pull
                > down-wind. ...on the water.

                Please don't say these kind of things now just from the few experiences
                you had.
                Races will give the answer.
                If we compare paragliders and hang-gliders which are very similar to
                soft kites
                and rigid spar kites: the difference is smaller and smaller between
                them, and
                even when the difference was large, paragliders had a lot more success
                than
                hang-gliders. It doesn't need one quality to make a good product but as
                many
                qualities as possible.

                > We should all acknowledge, however, that Flash won the World Championship
                > Wave-sailing event last year with a 4 line Sky Tiger and a strap surf board.
                > He won it with spirit and vigor, so the specifications of his equipment were
                > meaningless.

                Now he only uses Wipika wings, as Mike Waltze, Sierra Emori, Rush Randle
                and 95%
                of the Hawaiian boys. I met him in May at Maui. He stays on the same
                spot for 2
                hours making tricks and jumps on the waves then going upwind. The jumps
                he makes
                are unbelievable (I will not tell the height because nobody will believe
                me!)
                We are more and more numerous going upwind and I feel the progresses we
                have to
                make are more on the boards than on the kites.
                It is easy to explain why: when I use a parakart (buggy) or a dinghy or
                a trifoiler or any other boat with a good hull and a good centerboard, I
                go upwind just like with any classic dinghy (around 45° on each side of
                the wind - I dinghy raced for 10 years).
                However, the usual Wipika wings are a basic model, very stable and easy
                to fly
                because 99% of the users are entering the sport. Twelve years ago we
                made high
                aspect ratio Wipika type wings and we'll make new ones when the market
                will ask
                for them.

                Best regards
                Bruno

                ========================================================
                WIPIKA - Dominique & Bruno Legaignoux
                26, rue Eugene Boudin - 29000 QUIMPER - FRANCE
                Phone : (33) 2 9890 8379 Fax : (33) 2 9852 1618
                http://www.wipika.com e-mail : wipika@...
                =========================================================




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              • Cory Roeseler
                ... You are right. I should get more time on the water with a Wipika wing. Perhaps after the competition on Maui. I was expanding on comments made by Mr.
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 2, 1998
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                  Bruno wrote:
                  >Please don't say these kind of things now just from the few experiences
                  >you had.

                  You are right. I should get more time on the water with a Wipika wing.
                  Perhaps after the competition on Maui. I was expanding on comments made by
                  Mr. Ness, the star of your instruction video, who responded to the question
                  of rigid kite vs inflatable by saying the Wipika is:

                  "Not as good you need good sailing technique"

                  Bruno wrote:
                  >Races will give the answer.

                  I agree 100%.

                  Bruno wrote:
                  >It doesn't need one quality to make a good product but as
                  >many
                  >qualities as possible.


                  Yes!
                  >
                  >> We should all acknowledge, however, that Flash won the World Championship
                  >> Wave-sailing event last year with a 4 line Sky Tiger and a strap surf
                  board.
                  >> He won it with spirit and vigor, so the specifications of his equipment
                  were
                  >> meaningless.


                  The jumps
                  >he makes
                  >are unbelievable (I will not tell the height because nobody will believe
                  >me!)

                  I believe you! Aren't kites great?

                  >We are more and more numerous going upwind and I feel the progresses we
                  >have to
                  >make are more on the boards than on the kites.

                  Yes, let's invite the board builders to participate in this discussion.

                  Bruno, I hope you are not offended by the points I make. I enjoy a healthy
                  debate, and I only engage with those who have earned my respect. You have
                  an excellent product and a very impressive list of achievements. Keep up
                  the good work and keep the dialogue open.

                  Warmest regards,

                  Cory



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                • Laurent Ness - Axel'Air
                  Hello everybody, I think I have to intoduce myself also ! I manage my flysurf kite-shop down south of France. I began flysurfing completely on my own with
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 3, 1998
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                    Hello everybody,

                    I think I have to intoduce myself also !
                    I manage my flysurf kite-shop down south of France.
                    I began flysurfing completely on my own with large delta kites 6 years ago going
                    down wind.
                    Saw an article in american kite a few years ago and bought the kiteski package.
                    I found it too difficult in my wind (too gusty or too light ) and gave up ! I
                    used a lot the kiteski mono-board with the deltas.
                    Won the 97 french buggy championship and made second at the euro championship.

                    I work with Raphael Salles (windsurf champion) on developping special flysurf
                    boards since 96.
                    3 models available.
                    I sell wipika. Maybe the best french retailer. Am I wrong Bruno ?

                    If you want to put a face on this lines, have a look at the wipika kite.

                    To Ian
                    One of my pursuits is to try and make the sport as easy to learn and as

                    > attractive as possible to a wide audience. The two key components to
                    > achieving this I believe are to minimise the time spent re-launching the
                    > kite in deep water and the ability to get back to the point on the beach
                    > from where you started - hence my questions.

                    Maybe best to send me an e-mail on my private -mail so we talk about all
                    that..--
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    Laurent Ness Axel'Air Champion de France 97
                    Specialiste Char, Flysurf, Traction...
                    rue St Clair 34280 Carnon Ouest
                    tel 04 67 50 62 60 fax 04 67 68 54 25
                    e-mail: axelair@...
                    et bientot .... axelair.com
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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                  • Laurent Ness - Axel'Air
                    ... PLease let me know, I will believe you ! ... -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Laurent Ness Axel Air Champion de France
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 3, 1998
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                      > The jumps
                      > >he makes
                      > >are unbelievable (I will not tell the height because nobody will believe
                      > >me!)

                      PLease let me know, I will believe you !

                      > Laurent



                      --
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      Laurent Ness Axel'Air Champion de France 97
                      Specialiste Char, Flysurf, Traction...
                      rue St Clair 34280 Carnon Ouest
                      tel 04 67 50 62 60 fax 04 67 68 54 25
                      e-mail: axelair@...
                      et bientot .... axelair.com
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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                    • Cory Roeseler
                      Laurent, Tell me about your jibe footwork. I noticed in the Wipika video that (in flat water) you walk through the jibe like a windsurfer. Is this the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 3, 1998
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                        Laurent,

                        Tell me about your jibe footwork. I noticed in the Wipika video that (in
                        flat water) you "walk" through the jibe like a windsurfer. Is this the
                        technique that you teach to new flysurfers?

                        Cory


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Laurent Ness - Axel'Air <axelair@...>
                        To: kitesurf@... <kitesurf@...>
                        Date: Friday, July 03, 1998 1:31 AM
                        Subject: Re: [kitesurf] Kite performance - ridgid vs inflatable


                        >Hello everybody,
                        >
                        >I think I have to intoduce myself also !
                        >I manage my flysurf kite-shop down south of France.
                        >I began flysurfing completely on my own with large delta kites 6 years ago
                        going
                        >down wind.
                        >Saw an article in american kite a few years ago and bought the kiteski
                        package.
                        >I found it too difficult in my wind (too gusty or too light ) and gave up !
                        I
                        >used a lot the kiteski mono-board with the deltas.
                        >Won the 97 french buggy championship and made second at the euro
                        championship.
                        >
                        >I work with Raphael Salles (windsurf champion) on developping special
                        flysurf
                        >boards since 96.
                        >3 models available.
                        >I sell wipika. Maybe the best french retailer. Am I wrong Bruno ?
                        >
                        >If you want to put a face on this lines, have a look at the wipika kite.
                        >
                        >To Ian
                        >One of my pursuits is to try and make the sport as easy to learn and as
                        >
                        >> attractive as possible to a wide audience. The two key components to
                        >> achieving this I believe are to minimise the time spent re-launching the
                        >> kite in deep water and the ability to get back to the point on the beach
                        >> from where you started - hence my questions.
                        >
                        >Maybe best to send me an e-mail on my private -mail so we talk about all
                        >that..--
                        >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        > Laurent Ness Axel'Air Champion de France 97
                        > Specialiste Char, Flysurf, Traction...
                        > rue St Clair 34280 Carnon Ouest
                        > tel 04 67 50 62 60 fax 04 67 68 54 25
                        > e-mail: axelair@...
                        > et bientot .... axelair.com
                        >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Rolf V. Oestergaard
                        Hi, Don t forget to support the new web index NewHoo at www.newhoo.com with comments and sugestions. They now have a growing kitesailing subject under sports.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 3, 1998
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                          Hi,

                          Don't forget to support the new web index NewHoo at www.newhoo.com with
                          comments and sugestions. They now have a growing kitesailing subject under
                          sports.

                          Have fun,

                          -=-=-
                          Rolf V. Østergaard, Stockholmsgade 21.2.th, DK-2100 Kbh. Ø, Denmark
                          mailto:rolf@... http://www.godset.dk/kiteski Tel: +45 3525 1330




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                        • Laurent Ness - Axel'Air
                          ... First you take the back footstrap out, second you push on your toesThen you jibe and when you are backside you can make a small jump or walk. Either
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 3, 1998
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                            Cory Roeseler wrote:

                            > Laurent,
                            >
                            > Tell me about your jibe footwork. I noticed in the Wipika video that (in
                            > flat water) you "walk" through the jibe like a windsurfer. Is this the
                            > technique that you teach to new flysurfers?
                            >
                            > Cory
                            >
                            > ---

                            First you take the back footstrap out, second you push on your toesThen you jibe
                            and when you are backside you can make a small jump or walk. Either technique
                            works.
                            ~~~~~~~~
                            Laurent
                            Today 20 knots but I go for lessons can't sail too much
                            myself~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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                          • drpearce@bigpond.com
                            I started off using action foils, and i found that they were very hard to land in the water even when you do eat shit. I fyou have good control when you go
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 3, 2000
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                              I started off using action foils, and i found that they were very
                              hard to land in the water even when you do eat shit. I fyou have
                              good control when you go down, they seem to sit up there and follow
                              you. To right though when they hit the water, hard to get up, unless
                              you actually act quick and no waves present. I now fly cquads and
                              they are great, water relaunching is not easy. Once again, if it
                              goes straight in top or bottom pretty easy. But i still find through
                              reading and watching, not many kites are easyto relaunch from water,
                              actually none are. Until we get some science in realuanching with a
                              bitton, we shall just have to fly much more efficient, and dont
                              forget everyone eats shit at some time.....












                              --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, Ian Young <IanYoung@i...> wrote:
                              > How have people found the comparitive upwind performance of kites
                              with
                              > inflatable leading edges such as the "Wipika" compared with
                              > ridgid frame kites?
                              >
                              > How much success have people had relaunching inflatable kites from
                              the
                              > water, particularly if they are two line kites?
                              >
                              > Cheers,
                              > Ian Young
                              >
                              > WinDesigns Australia:
                              > 9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
                              > Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                              > Mobile: 0414 716 812
                              > Email: IanYoung@i...
                              > Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/
                              >
                              > Army:
                              > Phone: +61 8 9383 0660
                              > Fax: +61 8 9383 0593
                              >
                              >
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