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Re: [ksurf] History of this list and sport

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  • Mel
    ... I think that s still true. Compared to sailboards, we can now plane in lighter wind, jump higher, & turn tighter, but on a beam reach or pointing we re
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 1 3:32 PM
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      <kiteworks@...> wrote:

      > Bruno thought that board development had a lot
      > more to go than kite development.

      I think that's still true. Compared to sailboards, we can now plane in
      lighter wind, jump higher, & turn tighter, but on a beam reach or pointing
      we're still slower*, & it's most likely the board that's slowing us down
      more than the kite.
      *in enough wind for the sailboard to be fully planing

      Mel
    • fritz_gram@yahoo.com
      ... plane in ... pointing ... down ... WRONG- IT is the kite, if you look at speeds attained on land and ice with sails vs. kites this is obvious. Top speeds
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 2 9:19 AM
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        --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
        > <kiteworks@h...> wrote:
        >
        > > Bruno thought that board development had a lot
        > > more to go than kite development.
        >
        > I think that's still true. Compared to sailboards, we can now
        plane in
        > lighter wind, jump higher, & turn tighter, but on a beam reach or
        pointing
        > we're still slower*, & it's most likely the board that's slowing us
        down
        > more than the kite.
        > *in enough wind for the sailboard to be fully planing
        >
        > Mel

        WRONG-
        IT is the kite, if you look at speeds attained on land and ice with
        sails vs. kites this is obvious. Top speeds with sails are about 2x
        of that with kites.

        Lift to drag ratios of sails can be made much higher than for kites,
        you can make a sail as effienct as possible make a kite with an LD
        over 5 and it won't stay in the sky.

        The main advantage you get with the kite over a sail are more
        apparent wind, moving the kite while you are still, and being able to
        apply the force generated by the kite at a vertical angle. These 2
        reasons are why we can plane in lighter wind and jump higher. They
        also allow us to use smaller boards which enable tighter turning.

        Maybe with the right board the kites apparent wind advantage could be
        put to use to gain higher speeds than fixed sails but personally I
        don't think so.

        Fritz
      • jquick1@hotmail.com
        Hey Fritz, Something I ve always been curious about is what would happen if one increased the L/D beyond 5, while the kite was parked on the edge of the window
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 2 9:46 AM
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          Hey Fritz,

          Something I've always been curious about is what would happen if one
          increased the L/D beyond 5, while the kite was parked on the edge of
          the window (while it is mimicking a sail). Of course L/D over 5 would
          cause the kite to overfly and luff when flying it overhead sure, but
          would it still overfly and luff while parked low in the window (if it
          would even park with this higher L/D)

          Also, (I havent done any personal research on this), but is it
          possible to go beyond 5 in L/D in the first place?

          Thanks,
          Jeff

          --- In kitesurf@y..., fritz_gram@y... wrote:
          > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
          > > <kiteworks@h...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Bruno thought that board development had a lot
          > > > more to go than kite development.
          > >
          > > I think that's still true. Compared to sailboards, we can now
          > plane in
          > > lighter wind, jump higher, & turn tighter, but on a beam reach or
          > pointing
          > > we're still slower*, & it's most likely the board that's slowing us
          > down
          > > more than the kite.
          > > *in enough wind for the sailboard to be fully planing
          > >
          > > Mel
          >
          > WRONG-
          > IT is the kite, if you look at speeds attained on land and ice with
          > sails vs. kites this is obvious. Top speeds with sails are about 2x
          > of that with kites.
          >
          > Lift to drag ratios of sails can be made much higher than for kites,
          > you can make a sail as effienct as possible make a kite with an LD
          > over 5 and it won't stay in the sky.
          >
          > The main advantage you get with the kite over a sail are more
          > apparent wind, moving the kite while you are still, and being able to
          > apply the force generated by the kite at a vertical angle. These 2
          > reasons are why we can plane in lighter wind and jump higher. They
          > also allow us to use smaller boards which enable tighter turning.
          >
          > Maybe with the right board the kites apparent wind advantage could be
          > put to use to gain higher speeds than fixed sails but personally I
          > don't think so.
          >
          > Fritz
        • Stefano Rosso
          ... i remember that... people would announce on the list when they had managed to ride a wipika 8.5 upwind. those were the days !
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 2 10:35 AM
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            > I would highly recommend a read of the earliest posts on this group
            > way back in 98.Bruno ,Don and Cory used to contribute back then.Don
            > recommended that everyone has a foil in their quiver and that foils
            > are so stable that youll only drop them if your dumb.Flash rode a
            > quad line skytiger and Bruno thought that board development had a lot
            > more to go than kite development.Cory ,Bruno and others fought it
            > out over whether rigid wings (what are they you ask)were better than
            > inflatables.Lou Wainmann had a relative Aaron who wanted to know the
            > results of a comp.

            i remember that... people would announce on the list when they had managed
            to ride a wipika 8.5 upwind. those were the days !
          • Bart van Oers
            Hi Jeff, The problem with high l/d is luffing... But an Arc can t luff and perhaps it s possible to make it faster. Also the earlier Arcs diplayed a L/D of
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 2 12:13 PM
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              Hi Jeff,

              The problem with high l/d is luffing...
              But an Arc can't luff and perhaps it's possible to make it faster.
              Also the earlier Arcs diplayed a L/D of around 8 (www.kite-surf.com for the
              testreport). But this decreased in the newer models to get more depower.

              Just a thought.

              Regards,

              Bart van Oers

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <jquick1@...>
              To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 6:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [ksurf] History of this list and sport


              > Hey Fritz,
              >
              > Something I've always been curious about is what would happen if one
              > increased the L/D beyond 5, while the kite was parked on the edge of
              > the window (while it is mimicking a sail). Of course L/D over 5 would
              > cause the kite to overfly and luff when flying it overhead sure, but
              > would it still overfly and luff while parked low in the window (if it
              > would even park with this higher L/D)
              >
              > Also, (I havent done any personal research on this), but is it
              > possible to go beyond 5 in L/D in the first place?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Jeff
              >
              > --- In kitesurf@y..., fritz_gram@y... wrote:
              > > --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
              > > > <kiteworks@h...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > Bruno thought that board development had a lot
              > > > > more to go than kite development.
              > > >
              > > > I think that's still true. Compared to sailboards, we can now
              > > plane in
              > > > lighter wind, jump higher, & turn tighter, but on a beam reach or
              > > pointing
              > > > we're still slower*, & it's most likely the board that's slowing us
              > > down
              > > > more than the kite.
              > > > *in enough wind for the sailboard to be fully planing
              > > >
              > > > Mel
              > >
              > > WRONG-
              > > IT is the kite, if you look at speeds attained on land and ice with
              > > sails vs. kites this is obvious. Top speeds with sails are about 2x
              > > of that with kites.
              > >
              > > Lift to drag ratios of sails can be made much higher than for kites,
              > > you can make a sail as effienct as possible make a kite with an LD
              > > over 5 and it won't stay in the sky.
              > >
              > > The main advantage you get with the kite over a sail are more
              > > apparent wind, moving the kite while you are still, and being able to
              > > apply the force generated by the kite at a vertical angle. These 2
              > > reasons are why we can plane in lighter wind and jump higher. They
              > > also allow us to use smaller boards which enable tighter turning.
              > >
              > > Maybe with the right board the kites apparent wind advantage could be
              > > put to use to gain higher speeds than fixed sails but personally I
              > > don't think so.
              > >
              > > Fritz
              >
              >
              > <<< to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com >>>
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Mel
              ... This may seem like a valid point at first, but I don t think you re comparing to speeds on land or ice with SAILBOARD sails. Speed record yachts are
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 2 1:30 PM
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                <fritz_gram@...> wrote:

                > > Compared to sailboards, on a beam reach or pointing
                > > we're still slower*, & it's most likely the board that's slowing us down
                > > more than the kite.
                > > *in enough wind for the sailboard to be fully planing
                > >
                > > Mel
                >
                > WRONG-
                > IT is the kite, if you look at speeds attained on land and ice with
                > sails vs. kites this is obvious. Top speeds with sails are about 2x
                > of that with kites.

                This may seem like a valid point at first, but I don't think you're
                comparing to speeds on land or ice with SAILBOARD sails. Speed record
                yachts are faster than speed record sailboards (on water, land, or ice).
                It's been reported that land & ice kite vehicles are also faster than land
                or ice sailboards. This is partly what leads me to believe the board is
                slowing us down. In other words, if a sailboard is slower than a kiteboard
                on land, & faster on the water, it must be the board making the difference.
                I'm not saying the kites can't be improved upon (see below), just that there
                may be more room for improvement in the boards.

                > make a kite with an LD
                > over 5 and it won't stay in the sky.

                It may not stay in the sky when parked at the edge, but I think that a much
                higher L/D could be handled while under way. If I fly my Nasih overhead in
                the extrememly gusty winds we always get here it luffs all over the place in
                the gusts, but once I'm under way I can ride right through those very same
                gusts without a hint of luffing. I think what we need for speed is a kite
                with a high L/D that can be manually lowered from the bar (possibly by
                simply sheeting in or out), & then increased again once under way.

                > The main advantage you get with the kite over a sail are more
                > apparent wind, moving the kite while you are still, and being able to
                > apply the force generated by the kite at a vertical angle. These 2
                > reasons are why we can plane in lighter wind and jump higher.

                Another advantage over sailboards is that a kite only has a 1:1 mechanical
                advantage over the rider (center of effort acts at the height of your
                harness hook) compared to around 2:1 for a sailboard sail (center of effort
                is above your head - maybe not quite, but it's much higher than your hook).
                Yet another advantage is that we can access stronger wind (at altitude),
                which could easily be dismissed by saying that means we need to use less
                wing area, but it gives us more wind with less chop (that's why riding in
                offshore winds is faster). I think we should be able to take advantage of
                these factors with the right gear & eventually reach & point faster than
                sailboards (although still not as fast as speed record yachts).

                AND <jquick1@...> wrote:

                > Something I've always been curious about is what would happen if one
                > increased the L/D beyond 5, while the kite was parked on the edge of
                > the window (while it is mimicking a sail). Of course L/D over 5 would
                > cause the kite to overfly and luff when flying it overhead sure, but
                > would it still overfly and luff while parked low in the window (if it
                > would even park with this higher L/D)

                I think kites luff at least as easily while parked at the edge with a
                stationary pilot, they're just easier to RECOVER from luffing, because
                taking a step back tightens the lines by a meter, while stepping back when
                it's overhead hardly tightens the lines at all, plus it's falling nearly
                straight towards you, as opposed to perpendicular to the lines. I always
                try to keep my Naish parked low when it's gusty & I'm not moving, because
                it's also easier to relaunch after it does luff, but I think that once under
                way luffing is MUCH less of an issue, so L/D could be increased, especially
                in luff-resistant kites like the ARC (as Bart van Oers pointed out).

                > Also, (I havent done any personal research on this), but is it
                > possible to go beyond 5 in L/D in the first place?

                Andrew Reid's scientific, quantitative test shows the L/D of an ARC as no
                lower than 5, peaking at just under 6, & that of an AR5 as peaking over 6.
                Also interesting is his chart of a "typical small boat rig" which indicates
                L/D peaks at about 4.5 Are those of speed boats' & even sailboards' sails
                really THAT much higher?

                Mel
              • fritz_gram@yahoo.com
                In my experience land yatchs with sail board sails are faster than kite powered craft, maybe skate sailors are slower than kite buggies but sit down rigs with
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 2 5:17 PM
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                  In my experience land yatchs with sail board sails are faster than
                  kite powered craft, maybe skate sailors are slower than kite buggies
                  but sit down rigs with wind surfing sails are faster by about 1.5x.
                  55 vs 80 mph. (vs. 120+ for funky looking fixed wing things) I
                  haven't kited on land much in the last few years but I remeber it
                  being pretty easy for guys in home made land yatchs with old beat up
                  wind surf sails to pass the fastest kite buggiers. Maybe kiters are
                  faster now but I don't think so. I think kiters might be faster than
                  stand up rigs with sail board sails but not the sit down ones. Who
                  knows maybe a high AR sheetable is faster but I haven't heard of
                  anyone doing speed runs with one out in the desert yet.
                  Have you?

                  Reguardless of speed I think it is obvious that kite boarding has
                  seen a more signicant increase in performance from the kite side than
                  from boards.

                  I'd rather have a converted surfboard or stock wake board and an
                  ARX/Airblast than a Wipika Classic and the latest and greatest
                  board. If I lived somewhere really windy like Maui this might not be
                  the case but for most people I think it is. Which combo would you
                  prefer?

                  Maybe this means that now there is more room for board improvement,
                  but I don't see I faster board that won't require a radical change in
                  riding style, and be usefull for much else than going fast.

                  Who knows if kite improvement will continue to out pace board
                  improvement. I think it will. Twin tips seem to be making the sport
                  easier and are better for free style but I don't think they will make
                  you go faster or point higher. I think the biggest increase in
                  performace will continue to come from improved kite design. It seems
                  we may have already passed what was once considered to be the LD
                  limit for kites.

                  I don't think it really matters who is faster, from my kite buggy
                  days I remember just going fast being fun for about a day then you
                  get board and need do start doing tricks to keep things interesting.

                  I still say it is the kite and not the board that is slowing us down.

                  Fritz



                  --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                  > <fritz_gram@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > > Compared to sailboards, on a beam reach or pointing
                  > > > we're still slower*, & it's most likely the board that's
                  slowing us down
                  > > > more than the kite.
                  > > > *in enough wind for the sailboard to be fully planing
                  > > >
                  > > > Mel
                  > >
                  > > WRONG-
                  > > IT is the kite, if you look at speeds attained on land and ice
                  with
                  > > sails vs. kites this is obvious. Top speeds with sails are about
                  2x
                  > > of that with kites.
                  >
                  > This may seem like a valid point at first, but I don't think you're
                  > comparing to speeds on land or ice with SAILBOARD sails. Speed
                  record
                  > yachts are faster than speed record sailboards (on water, land, or
                  ice).
                  > It's been reported that land & ice kite vehicles are also faster
                  than land
                  > or ice sailboards. This is partly what leads me to believe the
                  board is
                  > slowing us down. In other words, if a sailboard is slower than a
                  kiteboard
                  > on land, & faster on the water, it must be the board making the
                  difference.
                  > I'm not saying the kites can't be improved upon (see below), just
                  that there
                  > may be more room for improvement in the boards.
                  >
                  > > make a kite with an LD
                  > > over 5 and it won't stay in the sky.
                  >
                  > It may not stay in the sky when parked at the edge, but I think
                  that a much
                  > higher L/D could be handled while under way. If I fly my Nasih
                  overhead in
                  > the extrememly gusty winds we always get here it luffs all over the
                  place in
                  > the gusts, but once I'm under way I can ride right through those
                  very same
                  > gusts without a hint of luffing. I think what we need for speed is
                  a kite
                  > with a high L/D that can be manually lowered from the bar (possibly
                  by
                  > simply sheeting in or out), & then increased again once under way.
                  >
                  > > The main advantage you get with the kite over a sail are more
                  > > apparent wind, moving the kite while you are still, and being
                  able to
                  > > apply the force generated by the kite at a vertical angle. These
                  2
                  > > reasons are why we can plane in lighter wind and jump higher.
                  >
                  > Another advantage over sailboards is that a kite only has a 1:1
                  mechanical
                  > advantage over the rider (center of effort acts at the height of
                  your
                  > harness hook) compared to around 2:1 for a sailboard sail (center
                  of effort
                  > is above your head - maybe not quite, but it's much higher than
                  your hook).
                  > Yet another advantage is that we can access stronger wind (at
                  altitude),
                  > which could easily be dismissed by saying that means we need to use
                  less
                  > wing area, but it gives us more wind with less chop (that's why
                  riding in
                  > offshore winds is faster). I think we should be able to take
                  advantage of
                  > these factors with the right gear & eventually reach & point faster
                  than
                  > sailboards (although still not as fast as speed record yachts).
                  >
                  > AND <jquick1@h...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Something I've always been curious about is what would happen if
                  one
                  > > increased the L/D beyond 5, while the kite was parked on the edge
                  of
                  > > the window (while it is mimicking a sail). Of course L/D over 5
                  would
                  > > cause the kite to overfly and luff when flying it overhead sure,
                  but
                  > > would it still overfly and luff while parked low in the window
                  (if it
                  > > would even park with this higher L/D)
                  >
                  > I think kites luff at least as easily while parked at the edge with
                  a
                  > stationary pilot, they're just easier to RECOVER from luffing,
                  because
                  > taking a step back tightens the lines by a meter, while stepping
                  back when
                  > it's overhead hardly tightens the lines at all, plus it's falling
                  nearly
                  > straight towards you, as opposed to perpendicular to the lines. I
                  always
                  > try to keep my Naish parked low when it's gusty & I'm not moving,
                  because
                  > it's also easier to relaunch after it does luff, but I think that
                  once under
                  > way luffing is MUCH less of an issue, so L/D could be increased,
                  especially
                  > in luff-resistant kites like the ARC (as Bart van Oers pointed out).
                  >
                  > > Also, (I havent done any personal research on this), but is it
                  > > possible to go beyond 5 in L/D in the first place?
                  >
                  > Andrew Reid's scientific, quantitative test shows the L/D of an ARC
                  as no
                  > lower than 5, peaking at just under 6, & that of an AR5 as peaking
                  over 6.
                  > Also interesting is his chart of a "typical small boat rig" which
                  indicates
                  > L/D peaks at about 4.5 Are those of speed boats' & even
                  sailboards' sails
                  > really THAT much higher?
                  >
                  > Mel
                • Mel
                  ... That s what I thought. Sailboards are stand up rigs with sail board sails . We agree that on land the windsurfing sails are slower, but on the water
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 2 7:54 PM
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                    <fritz_gram@...> wrote:

                    > In my experience land yatchs with sail board sails are faster than
                    > kite powered craft, maybe skate sailors are slower than kite buggies
                    > but sit down rigs with wind surfing sails are faster by about 1.5x.
                    > 55 vs 80 mph. <snip> I think kiters might be faster than
                    > stand up rigs with sail board sails but not the sit down ones.

                    That's what I thought. Sailboards are "stand up rigs with sail board sails
                    ". We agree that on land the windsurfing sails are slower, but on the water
                    they're faster. The difference must be the board.

                    Another perspective is that if a kite buggy can go 55mph with the same kite
                    that only makes a kiteboard go half that speed (even in twice the wind),
                    board drag is a BIG factor.

                    > Regardless of speed I think it is obvious that kite boarding has
                    > seen a more signicant increase in performance from the kite side than
                    > from boards.

                    Maybe because nobody's been trying to make them fast.

                    > I'd rather have a converted surfboard or stock wake board and an
                    > ARX/Airblast than a Wipika Classic and the latest and greatest
                    > board. ... Which combo would you prefer?
                    > Maybe this means that now there is more room for board improvement,

                    We also agree here, that boards haven't progressed much, & that they have
                    more room for improvement (that was the primary topic of this discussion).

                    > but I don't see I faster board that won't require a radical change in
                    > riding style, and be usefull for much else than going fast.

                    I'd think a board could be made faster by sacrificing a little
                    maneuverability (maybe make it "only" as maneuverable as a fast sailboard).

                    > I still say it is the kite and not the board that is slowing us down.

                    They both have drag, so they're both slowing us down. It seems we only
                    disagree about which has a greater influence. All we need is a kite with a
                    higher overall L/D than a sailboard sail (unless we already have them!) &
                    we'll know for sure. Either that or a kiteboard with a higher L/D than a
                    sailboard.....

                    Mel
                  • kitemanic@yahoo.co.uk
                    ... be ... I d personally prefer a classic and a wakeboard. DREW
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 3 12:10 AM
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                      --- In kitesurf@y..., fritz_gram@y... wrote:
                      > I'd rather have a converted surfboard or stock wake board and an
                      > ARX/Airblast than a Wipika Classic and the latest and greatest
                      > board. If I lived somewhere really windy like Maui this might not
                      be
                      > the case but for most people I think it is. Which combo would you
                      > prefer?

                      I'd personally prefer a classic and a wakeboard.
                      DREW
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