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Re: [ksurf] Broken Webbing Adjuster

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  • CC - Steve
    Mike I tried a Superloc and it didn t break. I just found it hard to adjust. i m using strap and fastener from an old Yakima roof rack strap. It has held up
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 30, 2001
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      Mike

      I tried a Superloc and it didn't break. I just found it hard to adjust. i'm
      using strap and fastener from an old Yakima roof rack strap. It has held up
      well.

      Steve
      Carson City, Nevada USA

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Lemke, Mike" <Mike.Lemke@...>
      To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 8:37 PM
      Subject: [ksurf] Broken Webbing Adjuster


      > Yesterday afternoon I went out to landboard and it was quite windy. I
      took
      > some wind measurements and realized I would be overpowered but I decided
      to
      > launch anyways.
      >
      > At any rate, as soon as the kite took off from the field my webbing
      > adjustement buckle broke. I use(d) the 1" tubular webbing Mel was talking
      > about and a plastic webbing adjustment buckle made by Superloc. I took
      the
      > buckle back to West Marine today and asked them to check the breaking
      > strength. They called Superloc who was unable to provide this
      information.
      > Superloc did take down my cell number and promised to call when they find
      > the technical specs for this part.
      >
      > Does anyone know of an easy one handed stainless webbing adjuster? Did I
      > just have a deffective plastic one (i.e. any other incidents out there
      like
      > this?) Do any of you know the safe working load of these 1" adjustment
      > buckles?
      >
      > I installed a 2" adjuster and webbing on my bar tonight just to get me
      > through the weekend (none of the boat stores in Las Vegas sell trapeze
      > cleats or I would have tried that).
      >
      > Thanks......Mike
      >
      > <<< to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com >>>
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >


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    • Mel
      ... like ... First, where did it break? Somebody else on this group broke one because they fastened the webbing around the thin, weak top rung instead of the
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 30, 2001
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        Lemke, Mike <Mike.Lemke@...> wrote:

        > adjustement buckle broke. I use(d) the 1" tubular webbing Mel was talking
        > about and a plastic webbing adjustment buckle made by Superloc....

        > Did I
        > just have a deffective plastic one (i.e. any other incidents out there
        like
        > this?) Do any of you know the safe working load of these 1" adjustment
        > buckles?

        First, where did it break? Somebody else on this group broke one because
        they fastened the webbing around the thin, weak top rung instead of the
        thick, strong second rung. Other than that I haven't heard of any
        breakages, so it must have just been defective. I've seen sailboard
        headcaps with them rigged 1:1, & they have around 500 pounds or more STATIC
        load, & in 15 years in the business I've never seen one of them break in
        normal use, including surf which breaks the mast into 5 pieces, leaving the
        Superloc intact. WindSurfing Hawaii gave me a load spec, but all I remember
        is it was well over 500 pounds (which is all I need with mine rigged 2:1).
        Keep in mind also that I've never even heard of a Naish buckle breaking
        (Superloc knock-off).

        Mel
      • Dwight & Jacky
        I broke one and so have several others here and EVERY broken one was because it was thread wrong. Mel straightened me out on this one. Mel you need to
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 31, 2001
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          I broke one and so have several others here and EVERY broken one was because
          it was thread wrong. Mel straightened me out on this one. Mel you need to
          straighten Air Rush out too. They sew their strap to the week part. NSI does
          it right and is so confident (or brave) they don't use the backup webbing
          that most run behind the adjustable side.

          Mel, I also use your tip for putting the plastic piece under the webbing on
          the front side. This makes loosening the strap so much easier and more
          precise. I think Air Rush does that on their straps too. The NSI bungee has
          the plastic piece on their strap, but not in the right place. I just moved
          it and added a piece of webbing to pull on it.

          Dwight
        • Lemke, Mike
          This is most likely why mine broke as well. I sewed the webbing which attaches to my flying lines to a rather weak looking part of the buckle. I ll get
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 31, 2001
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            This is most likely why mine broke as well. I sewed the webbing which
            attaches to my flying lines to a rather weak looking part of the buckle.
            I'll get another and figure out the proper rig.

            Thank you.....M

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Dwight & Jacky
            To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: 3/31/01 3:32 AM
            Subject: Re: [ksurf] Broken Webbing Adjuster

            I broke one and so have several others here and EVERY broken one was
            because
            it was thread wrong. Mel straightened me out on this one. Mel you need
            to
            straighten Air Rush out too. They sew their strap to the week part. NSI
            does
            it right and is so confident (or brave) they don't use the backup
            webbing
            that most run behind the adjustable side.

            Mel, I also use your tip for putting the plastic piece under the webbing
            on
            the front side. This makes loosening the strap so much easier and more
            precise. I think Air Rush does that on their straps too. The NSI bungee
            has
            the plastic piece on their strap, but not in the right place. I just
            moved
            it and added a piece of webbing to pull on it.

            Dwight


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          • Mel
            ... i m ... up ... You ride on fresh water don t you? (no corrosion or salt/silt build-up) ... More on this in my next post Re: Trapeze cleats (Ronstan Fiddle
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 31, 2001
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              CC - Steve <kite_head@...> wrote:

              > I tried a Superloc and it didn't break. I just found it hard to adjust.
              i'm
              > using strap and fastener from an old Yakima roof rack strap. It has held
              up
              > well.

              You ride on fresh water don't you? (no corrosion or salt/silt build-up)

              AND: as Dwight & Jacky <fishersfort@...> pointed out:

              > I also use ... the plastic piece under the webbing on
              > the front side. This makes loosening the strap so much easier and more
              > precise.

              More on this in my next post Re: Trapeze cleats (Ronstan Fiddle block)

              > NSI does
              > it right and is so confident (or brave) they don't use the backup webbing
              > that most run behind the adjustable side....The NSI bungee has
              > the plastic piece on their strap, but not in the right place. I just moved
              > it and added a piece of webbing to pull on it.

              I'm confused. The only NSIs I've SEEN had roofrack-style spring-loaded
              metal cam-lock buckles. Somebody else mentioned having one NSI like that, &
              one with a Superloc, but when I'd asked them to change to a Superloc they'd
              refused. Have they now taken my advice? Or did they refuse to take it
              because they'd just switched FROM the Superloc? Also strange that they'd
              put the extra plastic piece in the wrong place, since their own "Sling
              Reach" harness lines have it right.

              Mel
            • Dwight & Jacky
              They use the Superloc buckles now. Mine was shipped from NSI last week. They use the plastic piece to make a handy loop to pull on. I put a knot in the end of
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 31, 2001
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                They use the Superloc buckles now. Mine was shipped from NSI last week. They
                use the plastic piece to make a handy loop to pull on. I put a knot in the
                end of the webbing to pull on and used the plastic piece where it does some
                good.

                Dwight

                >
                > I'm confused. The only NSIs I've SEEN had roofrack-style spring-loaded
                > metal cam-lock buckles. Somebody else mentioned having one NSI like that,
                &
                > one with a Superloc, but when I'd asked them to change to a Superloc
                they'd
                > refused. Have they now taken my advice? Or did they refuse to take it
                > because they'd just switched FROM the Superloc? Also strange that they'd
                > put the extra plastic piece in the wrong place, since their own "Sling
                > Reach" harness lines have it right.
                >
                > Mel
                >
                >
                > <<< to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com >>>
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • Mel
                ... I m glad they took my advice. Thanks for the clarification. ... some ... Have you tried moving the plastic piece (as you already do) but feeding the free
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 1 2:11 PM
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                  Dwight & Jacky <fishersfort@...> wrote:

                  > They use the Superloc buckles now.

                  I'm glad they took my advice. Thanks for the clarification.

                  > I put a knot in the
                  > end of the webbing to pull on and used the plastic piece where it does
                  some
                  > good.

                  Have you tried moving the plastic piece (as you already do) but feeding the
                  free end of the main strap through it before tying the knot? That way
                  there's less strap dangling when adjusted all the way short. Pull on the
                  bottom of the loop to tighten, & pull on the top part to loosen. Ideally
                  you'd want the free end of the adjustment strap sewn to a red loop on the
                  plastic piece (like FLS now does).

                  Mel
                • Dwight & Jacky
                  ... the ... I prefer two pull handles, one is red webbing to loosen and the other is the black webbing to tighten. The dangling straps don t bother me. Dwight
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 1 3:52 PM
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                    >
                    > Have you tried moving the plastic piece (as you already do) but feeding
                    the
                    > free end of the main strap through it before tying the knot? That way
                    > there's less strap dangling when adjusted all the way short. Pull on the
                    > bottom of the loop to tighten, & pull on the top part to loosen. Ideally
                    > you'd want the free end of the adjustment strap sewn to a red loop on the
                    > plastic piece (like FLS now does).
                    >
                    > Mel


                    I prefer two pull handles, one is red webbing to loosen and the other is the
                    black webbing to tighten. The dangling straps don't bother me.

                    Dwight
                  • mike@lemke.com
                    Superlock just called me back (11 days later). At any rate, I thought you would find this interesting. Their 1 webbing adjuster has a tensile strength of
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 10 2:26 PM
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                      Superlock just called me back (11 days later).

                      At any rate, I thought you would find this interesting. Their 1"
                      webbing adjuster has a "tensile strength" of 300lbs. Obviously
                      inadequate for our use. But lots of people are using them
                      successfully, so I'm confused.

                      Superlok did not have any figures on safe working load or on breaking
                      load (the specifications I am used to seeing). Does anyone know the
                      specifics of what "tensile" strength is?

                      Thank you......M





                      --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                      > Lemke, Mike <Mike.Lemke@S...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > adjustement buckle broke. I use(d) the 1" tubular webbing Mel
                      was talking
                      > > about and a plastic webbing adjustment buckle made by Superloc....
                      >
                      > > Did I
                      > > just have a deffective plastic one (i.e. any other incidents out
                      there
                      > like
                      > > this?) Do any of you know the safe working load of these 1"
                      adjustment
                      > > buckles?
                      >
                      > First, where did it break? Somebody else on this group broke one
                      because
                      > they fastened the webbing around the thin, weak top rung instead of
                      the
                      > thick, strong second rung. Other than that I haven't heard of any
                      > breakages, so it must have just been defective. I've seen sailboard
                      > headcaps with them rigged 1:1, & they have around 500 pounds or
                      more STATIC
                      > load, & in 15 years in the business I've never seen one of them
                      break in
                      > normal use, including surf which breaks the mast into 5 pieces,
                      leaving the
                      > Superloc intact. WindSurfing Hawaii gave me a load spec, but all I
                      remember
                      > is it was well over 500 pounds (which is all I need with mine
                      rigged 2:1).
                      > Keep in mind also that I've never even heard of a Naish buckle
                      breaking
                      > (Superloc knock-off).
                      >
                      > Mel
                    • Rainer Leuschke
                      ... Interesting. If it s 300lbs breaking load then I guess forces in the front lines just aren t that dramatic. I ve been using the superloc with sucess.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 10 2:51 PM
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                        On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 mike@... wrote:
                        > At any rate, I thought you would find this interesting. Their 1"
                        > webbing adjuster has a "tensile strength" of 300lbs. Obviously
                        > inadequate for our use. But lots of people are using them
                        > successfully, so I'm confused.

                        Interesting. If it's 300lbs breaking load then I guess forces in the front
                        lines just aren't that dramatic. I've been using the superloc with sucess.
                        Anytime I feel like I'm railing real hard (which Mel believes produces
                        the highest loads) I also have a good bit of back line tension. Maybe with
                        a wakeboard I could go out in stronger winds and rail hard with the back
                        lines slack. Think about this: your flying lines might be 500lbs test
                        each, but worst case you'll have most of the force in one line and any
                        sort of knot will easily decrease your line strength by 20-40%. So your
                        line strength is really 400lbs or less. Not a whole lot better than the
                        buckle.

                        > Superlok did not have any figures on safe working load or on breaking
                        > load (the specifications I am used to seeing). Does anyone know the
                        > specifics of what "tensile" strength is?

                        ...probably used incorrectly for breaking load in this case. 'Tensile
                        strength' is material specific and does not change with size or shape and
                        therefore has units of lbs/in^2 (psi) or better yet N/mm^2 (MPa).

                        I prefer breaking load over safe working load. That way I can decide what
                        kind of a safety factor I want to work with.

                        R!
                      • Mel
                        ... Me too. I also know there s more than 300lb load on the front lines, because I tied a single piece of 500lb Lazer Pro between two knots in my front leader
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 10 6:15 PM
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                          Rainer Leuschke <rainer@...> wrote:

                          > Interesting. If it's 300lbs breaking load then I guess forces in the front
                          > lines just aren't that dramatic. I've been using the superloc with sucess.

                          Me too. I also know there's more than 300lb load on the front lines,
                          because I tied a single piece of 500lb Lazer Pro between two knots in my
                          front leader with figure 8s (leaving about 350lb. strength at 30% knot loss)
                          & it broke within the first 20 minutes of comfortable cruising.

                          > Think about this: your flying lines might be 500lbs test
                          > each, but worst case you'll have most of the force in one line and any
                          > sort of knot will easily decrease your line strength by 20-40%. So your
                          > line strength is really 400lbs or less. Not a whole lot better than the
                          > buckle.

                          I guess even sewn, sleeved loops in the ends have their strenth reduced by
                          the lark's head knot.

                          > I prefer breaking load over safe working load. That way I can decide what
                          > kind of a safety factor I want to work with.

                          If "300lbs" really is the Nexus spec, it must already have a big safety
                          factor included. I KNOW the number WindSurfing Hawaii quoted me was MUCH
                          higher, & I also know there's a LOT of force on a sailboard headcap. It
                          takes ALL my leg strength to downhaul, even with an 8:1 purchase. Ken
                          Winner actually measured downhaul force with a gauge a few years ago, & put
                          the results in that year's sail test issue of WindSurfing Magazine. I think
                          some were around 600lbs. Even rigged 2:1 that would put a STATIC load of
                          300lb on the Superloc, & I've never even seen one break when the surf adds
                          so much to the load that it snaps a surf-rated mast in 3 places.

                          Mel
                        • bitme1234@yahoo.com
                          I have had the same super lock buckle sinse the end of last summer. It has out lived the webbing, i now use tubular WEBBING, three sets of LEADERS and one
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 10 9:12 PM
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                            I have had the same super lock buckle sinse the end of last summer.
                            It has out lived the webbing, i now use tubular WEBBING, three sets
                            of LEADERS and one LINESET.

                            Later,
                            Todd

                            --- In kitesurf@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                            > Rainer Leuschke <rainer@u...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Interesting. If it's 300lbs breaking load then I guess forces in
                            the front
                            > > lines just aren't that dramatic. I've been using the superloc
                            with sucess.
                            >
                            > Me too. I also know there's more than 300lb load on the front
                            lines,
                            > because I tied a single piece of 500lb Lazer Pro between two knots
                            in my
                            > front leader with figure 8s (leaving about 350lb. strength at 30%
                            knot loss)
                            > & it broke within the first 20 minutes of comfortable cruising.
                            >
                            > > Think about this: your flying lines might be 500lbs test
                            > > each, but worst case you'll have most of the force in one line
                            and any
                            > > sort of knot will easily decrease your line strength by 20-40%.
                            So your
                            > > line strength is really 400lbs or less. Not a whole lot better
                            than the
                            > > buckle.
                            >
                            > I guess even sewn, sleeved loops in the ends have their strenth
                            reduced by
                            > the lark's head knot.
                            >
                            > > I prefer breaking load over safe working load. That way I can
                            decide what
                            > > kind of a safety factor I want to work with.
                            >
                            > If "300lbs" really is the Nexus spec, it must already have a big
                            safety
                            > factor included. I KNOW the number WindSurfing Hawaii quoted me
                            was MUCH
                            > higher, & I also know there's a LOT of force on a sailboard
                            headcap. It
                            > takes ALL my leg strength to downhaul, even with an 8:1 purchase.
                            Ken
                            > Winner actually measured downhaul force with a gauge a few years
                            ago, & put
                            > the results in that year's sail test issue of WindSurfing
                            Magazine. I think
                            > some were around 600lbs. Even rigged 2:1 that would put a STATIC
                            load of
                            > 300lb on the Superloc, & I've never even seen one break when the
                            surf adds
                            > so much to the load that it snaps a surf-rated mast in 3 places.
                            >
                            > Mel
                          • Lemke, Mike
                            I trust your experience Mel. But I have been very happy with the 2 webbing and buckle I replaced it with. I bet it is 4 times stronger when you look at the
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 11 9:26 AM
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                              I trust your experience Mel.

                              But I have been very happy with the 2" webbing and buckle I replaced it
                              with. I bet it is 4 times stronger when you look at the size of the
                              buckle......easier to use also.

                              The size doesn't bother me, so I'm gonna stick with it.....M

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Mel [mailto:kitebord@...]
                              Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 6:15 PM
                              To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [ksurf] Broken Webbing Adjuster


                              Rainer Leuschke <rainer@...> wrote:

                              > Interesting. If it's 300lbs breaking load then I guess forces in the front
                              > lines just aren't that dramatic. I've been using the superloc with sucess.

                              Me too. I also know there's more than 300lb load on the front lines,
                              because I tied a single piece of 500lb Lazer Pro between two knots in my
                              front leader with figure 8s (leaving about 350lb. strength at 30% knot loss)
                              & it broke within the first 20 minutes of comfortable cruising.

                              > Think about this: your flying lines might be 500lbs test
                              > each, but worst case you'll have most of the force in one line and any
                              > sort of knot will easily decrease your line strength by 20-40%. So your
                              > line strength is really 400lbs or less. Not a whole lot better than the
                              > buckle.

                              I guess even sewn, sleeved loops in the ends have their strenth reduced by
                              the lark's head knot.

                              > I prefer breaking load over safe working load. That way I can decide what
                              > kind of a safety factor I want to work with.

                              If "300lbs" really is the Nexus spec, it must already have a big safety
                              factor included. I KNOW the number WindSurfing Hawaii quoted me was MUCH
                              higher, & I also know there's a LOT of force on a sailboard headcap. It
                              takes ALL my leg strength to downhaul, even with an 8:1 purchase. Ken
                              Winner actually measured downhaul force with a gauge a few years ago, & put
                              the results in that year's sail test issue of WindSurfing Magazine. I think
                              some were around 600lbs. Even rigged 2:1 that would put a STATIC load of
                              300lb on the Superloc, & I've never even seen one break when the surf adds
                              so much to the load that it snaps a surf-rated mast in 3 places.

                              Mel


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                            • Mel
                              Lemke, Mike To: Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 9:26 AM Subject: RE: [ksurf] Broken Webbing Adjuster ... That s
                              Message 14 of 14 , Apr 12 10:08 AM
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                                Lemke, Mike <mike@...>
                                To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 9:26 AM
                                Subject: RE: [ksurf] Broken Webbing Adjuster


                                > I trust your experience Mel.
                                >
                                > But I have been very happy with the 2" webbing and buckle I replaced it
                                > with. I bet it is 4 times stronger when you look at the size of the
                                > buckle......easier to use also.
                                >
                                > The size doesn't bother me, so I'm gonna stick with it.....M

                                That's fine. I just want the others to know the 1" works fine, since even
                                that is "too bulky" for some, & I wouldn't want them to avoid getting an ARX
                                or any of the aftermarket systems just because it "only" has a 1" buckle.

                                Mel
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