Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [ksurf] Have you ever been to Ho'okipa?????!!!!!!!!

Expand Messages
  • Robert Pratt
    ... Ho okipa is not the place for kitesurfing. Eli, I always wondered who it is that gets to decide who gets to do what where. Since apperantly that
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 22 12:15 PM
      >>> elifuller@... 12/22/00 01:38PM >>>
      Ho'okipa is not the place for kitesurfing.
      < >>>
      Eli,
      I always wondered who it is that gets to decide who gets to do what where.
      Since apperantly that person is you (by the way how did you get that job?)
      maybe you could give us a list of where we can and can't surf/kitesurf/windsurf than we can just follow the LAW.
      While your at it can you do something about world hunger or tooth decay????
      bob
    • Eli Fuller
      ... where. ... that job?) ... surf/kitesurf/windsurf than we can just follow the LAW. ... decay???? ... Like I asked nicely before....Have you ever been to
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 22 3:37 PM
        "Robert Pratt" <rpratt@c...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > >>> elifuller@y... 12/22/00 01:38PM >>>
        > Ho'okipa is not the place for kitesurfing.
        > < >>>
        > Eli,
        > I always wondered who it is that gets to decide who gets to do what
        where.
        > Since apperantly that person is you (by the way how did you get
        that job?)
        > maybe you could give us a list of where we can and can't
        surf/kitesurf/windsurf than we can just follow the LAW.
        > While your at it can you do something about world hunger or tooth
        decay????
        > bob
        Like I asked nicely before....Have you ever been to Ho'okipa?
      • Eli Fuller
        Pratt, I guess you can t read properly. The kitesurfers in Maui decided that Ho okipa would be off bounds. THEY DECIDED wisely. Eli ... where. ... that job?)
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 22 3:40 PM
          Pratt, I guess you can't read properly. The kitesurfers in Maui
          decided that Ho'okipa would be off bounds. THEY DECIDED wisely.
          Eli
          --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Robert Pratt" <rpratt@c...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > >>> elifuller@y... 12/22/00 01:38PM >>>
          > Ho'okipa is not the place for kitesurfing.
          > < >>>
          > Eli,
          > I always wondered who it is that gets to decide who gets to do what
          where.
          > Since apperantly that person is you (by the way how did you get
          that job?)
          > maybe you could give us a list of where we can and can't
          surf/kitesurf/windsurf than we can just follow the LAW.
          > While your at it can you do something about world hunger or tooth
          decay????
          > bob
        • vernw@mauigateway.com
          First let me say that Flash was kiting down wind of lowers (in the still legal kite surf zone) when he was run down by the windsurfer. Second I was on the
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 25 2:18 PM
            First let me say that Flash was kiting down wind of lowers (in the
            still legal kite surf zone) when he was run down by the windsurfer.

            Second I was on the committee that met with the FAA over a year ago
            and we as kitesurfers here on the island decided we would not launch
            or land at Ho'okipa as this beach park is already stressed beyond
            capacity!

            We agreed not to encroach on the general Kanaha sailing area for
            safety reasons, and going up to uppers and beyond will bring the
            unwelcome attention of airport tower personnel and very likely an FBI
            welcoming committee waiting on shore to offer you free food and
            housing for a period of time.

            We recently had a situation here where a visiting kite surfer,
            described as Italian, was at lowers Kanaha and cut off a canoe full
            of
            local paddlers who's canoe club house is right there. Words were
            exchanged where the kite surfer told the locals they could "F#4K Off"
            further saying that he could kite where he pleased. I am sad to
            report
            that we are now loosing beach access from that area down to kite
            beach! For this we locals would like to extend an open invitation to
            this visitor never to return.

            As you can see, the areas we now use are a result of numerous
            factors,
            stress among different users being a chief factor. Safety and the
            question of whether kite flying is legal being others.

            FYI- Kite surfing is currently tolerated by state and local agencies
            from the canoe house to the harbor, Lanes and Kuau bay to all points
            upwind (good luck finding safe access) and most points on the south
            shore.

            Vern






            --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Robert Pratt" <rpratt@c...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > >>> elifuller@y... 12/22/00 01:38PM >>>
            > Ho'okipa is not the place for kitesurfing.
            > < >>>
            > Eli,
            > I always wondered who it is that gets to decide who gets to do what
            where.
            > Since apperantly that person is you (by the way how did you get
            that
            job?)
            > maybe you could give us a list of where we can and can't
            surf/kitesurf/windsurf than we can just follow the LAW.
            > While your at it can you do something about world hunger or tooth
            decay????
            > bob
          • Eli Fuller
            Hey Pratt, did you understand this one? ... launch ... FBI ... Off ... to ... agencies ... points ... what
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 25 6:49 PM
              Hey Pratt, did you understand this one?

              --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, vernw@m... wrote:
              > First let me say that Flash was kiting down wind of lowers (in the
              > still legal kite surf zone) when he was run down by the windsurfer.
              >
              > Second I was on the committee that met with the FAA over a year ago
              > and we as kitesurfers here on the island decided we would not
              launch
              > or land at Ho'okipa as this beach park is already stressed beyond
              > capacity!
              >
              > We agreed not to encroach on the general Kanaha sailing area for
              > safety reasons, and going up to uppers and beyond will bring the
              > unwelcome attention of airport tower personnel and very likely an
              FBI
              > welcoming committee waiting on shore to offer you free food and
              > housing for a period of time.
              >
              > We recently had a situation here where a visiting kite surfer,
              > described as Italian, was at lowers Kanaha and cut off a canoe full
              > of
              > local paddlers who's canoe club house is right there. Words were
              > exchanged where the kite surfer told the locals they could "F#4K
              Off"
              > further saying that he could kite where he pleased. I am sad to
              > report
              > that we are now loosing beach access from that area down to kite
              > beach! For this we locals would like to extend an open invitation
              to
              > this visitor never to return.
              >
              > As you can see, the areas we now use are a result of numerous
              > factors,
              > stress among different users being a chief factor. Safety and the
              > question of whether kite flying is legal being others.
              >
              > FYI- Kite surfing is currently tolerated by state and local
              agencies
              > from the canoe house to the harbor, Lanes and Kuau bay to all
              points
              > upwind (good luck finding safe access) and most points on the south
              > shore.
              >
              > Vern
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Robert Pratt" <rpratt@c...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > >>> elifuller@y... 12/22/00 01:38PM >>>
              > > Ho'okipa is not the place for kitesurfing.
              > > < >>>
              > > Eli,
              > > I always wondered who it is that gets to decide who gets to do
              what
              > where.
              > > Since apperantly that person is you (by the way how did you get
              > that
              > job?)
              > > maybe you could give us a list of where we can and can't
              > surf/kitesurf/windsurf than we can just follow the LAW.
              > > While your at it can you do something about world hunger or tooth
              > decay????
              > > bob
            • sammy@mailops.com
              OK, I have stayed out of this so far. I ve seen most of this type of thing before (snowboards vs skiers, Inliners vs Skateboarders, etc) and many of these
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 26 8:53 AM
                OK, I have stayed out of this so far. I've seen most of this type of
                thing before (snowboards vs skiers, Inliners vs Skateboarders, etc)
                and many of these growing pains are inevitable. We have to work
                through them. But I find some of this a bit troubling:

                --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, vernw@m... wrote:
                snip
                > Second I was on the committee that met with the FAA over a year ago
                > and we as kitesurfers here on the island decided we would not
                launch
                > or land at Ho'okipa as this beach park is already stressed beyond
                > capacity!
                >
                > We agreed not to encroach on the general Kanaha sailing area for
                > safety reasons, and going up to uppers and beyond will bring the
                > unwelcome attention of airport tower personnel and very likely an
                snip

                So are these no kiteboarding areas posted? Hopefully with
                simple 'any language' picture signs (simple drawing of a kiteboarder
                with a red circle and slash over it). If you have these (very
                sensible) agreements but no way of letting the many, many vistors
                know about them, then you are just asking for trouble.

                > We recently had a situation here where a visiting kite surfer,
                > described as Italian, was at lowers Kanaha and cut off a canoe full
                > of
                > local paddlers who's canoe club house is right there. Words were
                > exchanged where the kite surfer told the locals they could "F#4K
                Off"
                > further saying that he could kite where he pleased. I am sad to
                > report
                > that we are now loosing beach access from that area down to kite
                > beach! For this we locals would like to extend an open invitation
                to
                > this visitor never to return.
                snip

                I'm not sure, (someone here will let me know), but doesn't a
                wind powered water craft always have the right of way over any other
                type? Granted, common sense and common courtesy should always apply,
                but isn't it possible that this 'Italian Visitor' had every reason to
                believe that he was in the right?

                I for one would never have thought (without reading this board), that
                there were so many dos and don'ts reguarding kiteboarding in Hawaii.
                (Beyond the normal safety and courtesy I practice here at home.)

                Sammy
              • vernw@mauigateway.com
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 26 11:01 AM
                  <So are these no kiteboarding areas posted? Hopefully
                  with
                  simple 'any language' picture signs (simple drawing of
                  a kiteboarder
                  with a red circle and slash over it). If you have
                  these
                  (very
                  sensible) agreements but no way of letting the many,
                  many vistors
                  know about them, then you are just asking for trouble.


                  Yes they are posted. We have not, however, come up with a suitable
                  2-D
                  image of a kitesurfer with a circle slash. If anyone has one please
                  forward to Hawaii.
                  If in doubt about where kitesurfing is tolerated, just ask at one of
                  the kite shops. It's a small island, very easy to pinpoint locations.



                  <I'm not sure, (someone here will let me know), but doesn't a
                  wind powered water craft always have the right of way
                  over any other
                  type? Granted, common sense and common courtesy should
                  always apply,
                  but isn't it possible that this 'Italian Visitor' had
                  every reason to
                  believe that he was in the right?

                  I for one would never have thought (without reading
                  this board), that
                  there were so many dos and don'ts reguarding
                  kiteboarding in Hawaii.
                  (Beyond the normal safety and courtesy I practice here
                  at home.)



                  Well, I believe the maritime rule is: the most maneuverable craft has
                  the burden of bearing off. This is determined by the attainable speed
                  of the craft. Turning ability should match attainable speed. It would
                  seem in most situations we kitesurfers have that burden over other
                  sail powered craft and all other non-motorized craft, i.e. canoes.

                  One must consider also that the local Hawaiians didn't ask us to come
                  here, take their land and force our ways on them. They were in recent
                  history, powerful warriors. It is a tribute to their kinder side that
                  they tolerate the occupation without declaring war and hacking us to
                  pieces.
                  Hawaiians don't ascribe to our maritime rules as such. They have
                  retained some remnants of their culture, such as canoeing and I for
                  one do not feel free to impede them in that pursuit or tell them to
                  go
                  elsewhere.
                  Even if the visitor in question thought he had right of way, that
                  right would not include verbally abusing others.

                  There are more "Don'ts" than "Do's" here.
                  When we met with FAA officials, it was not a friendly cup of coffee.
                  We were packing a kite surfing lawyer well versed in federal law. The
                  meeting ended with the FBI threatening to meet any kitesurfer on
                  shore
                  to examine and weigh their equipment and make an arrest if it was an
                  ounce over the ruled weight. (Read federal Law concerning Balloons
                  and
                  kites within a five mile radius of air traffic control towers)
                  And us saying, "we will take that risk."

                  To all potential visitors to our home of Maui: If you think you have
                  a
                  RIGHT to Kitesurf here, please stay home. For us local kite surfers,
                  we are stepping lightly here one day at a time.

                  Vern
                • nocomala@aol.com
                  ATTENTION :ANY POTENTIAL TOURIST PLEASE DON T GO TO HAWAII,PEOPLE ARE CRUEL!!! (SEE POST BELOW AND IT S THREADS) ... Hopefully ... of ... trouble. ... of ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 26 11:40 AM
                    ATTENTION :ANY POTENTIAL TOURIST

                    PLEASE DON'T GO TO HAWAII,PEOPLE ARE CRUEL!!!
                    (SEE POST BELOW AND IT'S THREADS)





                    --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, vernw@m... wrote:
                    > <So are these no kiteboarding areas posted?
                    Hopefully
                    > with
                    > simple 'any language' picture signs (simple drawing
                    of
                    > a kiteboarder
                    > with a red circle and slash over it). If you have
                    > these
                    > (very
                    > sensible) agreements but no way of letting the many,
                    > many vistors
                    > know about them, then you are just asking for
                    trouble.
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes they are posted. We have not, however, come up with a suitable
                    > 2-D
                    > image of a kitesurfer with a circle slash. If anyone has one please
                    > forward to Hawaii.
                    > If in doubt about where kitesurfing is tolerated, just ask at one
                    of
                    > the kite shops. It's a small island, very easy to pinpoint
                    locations.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > <I'm not sure, (someone here will let me know), but doesn't a
                    > wind powered water craft always have the right of
                    way
                    > over any other
                    > type? Granted, common sense and common courtesy
                    should
                    > always apply,
                    > but isn't it possible that this 'Italian Visitor'
                    had
                    > every reason to
                    > believe that he was in the right?
                    >
                    > I for one would never have thought (without reading
                    > this board), that
                    > there were so many dos and don'ts reguarding
                    > kiteboarding in Hawaii.
                    > (Beyond the normal safety and courtesy I practice
                    here
                    > at home.)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Well, I believe the maritime rule is: the most maneuverable craft
                    has
                    > the burden of bearing off. This is determined by the attainable
                    speed
                    > of the craft. Turning ability should match attainable speed. It
                    would
                    > seem in most situations we kitesurfers have that burden over other
                    > sail powered craft and all other non-motorized craft, i.e. canoes.
                    >
                    > One must consider also that the local Hawaiians didn't ask us to
                    come
                    > here, take their land and force our ways on them. They were in
                    recent
                    > history, powerful warriors. It is a tribute to their kinder side
                    that
                    > they tolerate the occupation without declaring war and hacking us
                    to
                    > pieces.
                    > Hawaiians don't ascribe to our maritime rules as such. They have
                    > retained some remnants of their culture, such as canoeing and I for
                    > one do not feel free to impede them in that pursuit or tell them to
                    > go
                    > elsewhere.
                    > Even if the visitor in question thought he had right of way, that
                    > right would not include verbally abusing others.
                    >
                    > There are more "Don'ts" than "Do's" here.
                    > When we met with FAA officials, it was not a friendly cup of
                    coffee.
                    > We were packing a kite surfing lawyer well versed in federal law.
                    The
                    > meeting ended with the FBI threatening to meet any kitesurfer on
                    > shore
                    > to examine and weigh their equipment and make an arrest if it was
                    an
                    > ounce over the ruled weight. (Read federal Law concerning Balloons
                    > and
                    > kites within a five mile radius of air traffic control towers)
                    > And us saying, "we will take that risk."
                    >
                    > To all potential visitors to our home of Maui: If you think you have
                    > a
                    > RIGHT to Kitesurf here, please stay home. For us local kite
                    surfers,
                    > we are stepping lightly here one day at a time.
                    >
                    > Vern
                  • sammy@mailops.com
                    ... snip ... of ... locations. Good to hear that it is posted. I hope more places follow this lead. I for one would agree that asking at a local kite shop is
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 26 12:53 PM
                      --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, vernw@m... wrote:
                      snip
                      >
                      > Yes they are posted. We have not, however, come up with a suitable
                      > 2-D
                      > image of a kitesurfer with a circle slash. If anyone has one please
                      > forward to Hawaii.
                      > If in doubt about where kitesurfing is tolerated, just ask at one
                      of
                      > the kite shops. It's a small island, very easy to pinpoint
                      locations.

                      Good to hear that it is posted. I hope more places follow this
                      lead. I for one would agree that asking at a local kite shop is a
                      good idea (no matter where you are vacationing). But, is every shop
                      knowledgable? In a growing sport like this I would expect there are
                      some shops that have just started selling kites and may not always
                      have extensive knowledge. (Esp. if it happens to be the 'kite guy's'
                      day off.) If an area is off limits for any activity (that you would
                      reasonably think of doing there), it needs to be posted.

                      snip
                      >
                      > Well, I believe the maritime rule is: the most maneuverable craft
                      has
                      > the burden of bearing off. This is determined by the attainable
                      speed
                      > of the craft. Turning ability should match attainable speed. It
                      would
                      > seem in most situations we kitesurfers have that burden over other
                      > sail powered craft and all other non-motorized craft, i.e. canoes.

                      I stand corrected here.

                      >
                      > One must consider also that the local Hawaiians didn't ask us to
                      come
                      > here, take their land and force our ways on them. They were in
                      recent
                      > history, powerful warriors. It is a tribute to their kinder side
                      that
                      > they tolerate the occupation without declaring war and hacking us
                      to
                      > pieces.
                      > Hawaiians don't ascribe to our maritime rules as such. They have
                      > retained some remnants of their culture, such as canoeing and I for
                      > one do not feel free to impede them in that pursuit or tell them to
                      > go
                      > elsewhere.

                      Hmmmmm. Sorry, no, I have to disagree here. Hawaii is a part of the
                      US and it's citizens are subject to all US laws. Not just what suits
                      them. I don't cry about the past and what people long dead did or
                      had done to them. I don't carry blame or shame for what anybody else
                      may have done in the past or otherwise. I take responsibility for my
                      own actions and that's all I ask from others. I'm supposed to feel
                      lucky that a US citizen (of whatever ethnic background) doesn't
                      attack me!?!?!? No, I fully expect that.

                      That said, I would not ask Hawaiians to give up canoeing or any other
                      parts of their culture. And, I can see giving them reasonable space
                      and respect to do so. But then, I would also expect that they would
                      practice said culture with respect for others and their safety.
                      Maritime rules exist for everybody's safety. If Hawaiian's culture
                      has to give way for safety, then so be it.

                      > Even if the visitor in question thought he had right of way, that
                      > right would not include verbally abusing others.

                      Absolutely. But, if he thought he had right of way AND somehow
                      missed the postings, and then had a bunch of canoers shouting at
                      him. I can see how he might react badly. Yeah, I know. That's
                      reaching. In all likelyhood he was in the wrong and was being a
                      jerk. Unfortunatly those jerks are everywhere reguardless of what
                      watersport they may choose. We all have to deal with them for what
                      they are: Not Kiteboarders or windsurfers or whatever but just JERKS.

                      >
                      > There are more "Don'ts" than "Do's" here.
                      > When we met with FAA officials, it was not a friendly cup of
                      coffee.
                      > We were packing a kite surfing lawyer well versed in federal law.
                      The
                      > meeting ended with the FBI threatening to meet any kitesurfer on
                      > shore
                      > to examine and weigh their equipment and make an arrest if it was
                      an
                      > ounce over the ruled weight. (Read federal Law concerning Balloons
                      > and
                      > kites within a five mile radius of air traffic control towers)
                      > And us saying, "we will take that risk."

                      Unfortunatly, typical government thinking. No compromise, no real
                      thought, just ban it. I wish you luck.

                      >
                      > To all potential visitors to our home of Maui: If you think you have
                      > a
                      > RIGHT to Kitesurf here, please stay home. For us local kite
                      surfers,
                      > we are stepping lightly here one day at a time.
                      >
                      > Vern

                      Now that's hard to take. Your home activily and widely promotes
                      tourism. Is it expected that the tourists just step onto the island,
                      drop their cash, and go home? People go there to do all the things
                      they see in the ads which includes all kinds of watersports. Of
                      course they need to be done safely, in allowed areas, etc. But come
                      on.

                      This brings up something else. Have the local kitesurfers approached
                      the local tourism board? They could be a major friend in helping you
                      out especially with communicating with visiting kitesurfers. Plus
                      the tourism board is usually looking for new ways to promote and
                      kitesurfing looks great in an ad. It should be in their best
                      interest to help kitesurfers with access issues, promoting safety,
                      etc.
                    • Eli Fuller
                      Vern, I keep asking the question above and people still don t get it. I wouldn t bother wasting your breath with this topic ever again. White Americans who
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 26 3:34 PM
                        Vern, I keep asking the question above and people still don't get it.
                        I wouldn't bother wasting your breath with this topic ever again.
                        White Americans who have not travelled much can't begin to understand
                        places Like Hawaii, so don't expect them to understand why you, as
                        kitesurfers, are stepping extra lightly in Maui. I would love to be
                        there when all the guys from this egroup who think kitesurfing should
                        be allowed all over Maui, take a holliday there with their saved up
                        air-miles. All the intelligent and smart assed comments about
                        Ho'okipa and Maui will be silent then. Instead of kitesurfing most of
                        them will probably do the ride down the mountain with Bob instead.
                        Eli
                        Antigua
                      • vernw@mauigateway.com
                        Amen Eli! Vern ... it. ... understand ... should ... of
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 27 10:50 AM
                          Amen Eli!

                          Vern



                          --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Eli Fuller" <elifuller@y...> wrote:
                          > Vern, I keep asking the question above and people still don't get
                          it.
                          > I wouldn't bother wasting your breath with this topic ever again.
                          > White Americans who have not travelled much can't begin to
                          understand
                          > places Like Hawaii, so don't expect them to understand why you, as
                          > kitesurfers, are stepping extra lightly in Maui. I would love to be
                          > there when all the guys from this egroup who think kitesurfing
                          should
                          > be allowed all over Maui, take a holliday there with their saved up
                          > air-miles. All the intelligent and smart assed comments about
                          > Ho'okipa and Maui will be silent then. Instead of kitesurfing most
                          of
                          > them will probably do the ride down the mountain with Bob instead.
                          > Eli
                          > Antigua
                        • Mike Richards
                          I say: (and I am a kitesurfer) Eli, that was very well said. Thank you. Robert, you are being nasty, and creating anger where none is needed, you took a quote
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jan 1, 2001
                            I say: (and I am a kitesurfer)

                            Eli, that was very well said. Thank you.

                            Robert, you are being nasty, and creating anger where none is needed, you
                            took a quote OUT OF CONTEXT from very positive e-mail, we are all trying to
                            get along and share, not fight. Eli is right, he was NOT deciding anything,
                            he was just stating some very important and respectable facts!

                            Your e-mail address indicates that you are from somewhere in Michigan. Why
                            do you need to stir up the shit in another area of the world?

                            ~ mike



                            -----Original Message-----
                            << Robert Pratt [mailto:rpratt@...-lansing.mi.us] 12/22/00 12:16 PM >>

                            >>> elifuller@... 12/22/00 01:38PM >>>
                            Ho'okipa is not the place for kitesurfing.
                            < >>>
                            Eli,
                            I always wondered who it is that gets to decide who gets to do what where.
                            Since apperantly that person is you (by the way how did you get that job?)
                            maybe you could give us a list of where we can and can't
                            surf/kitesurf/windsurf than we can just follow the LAW.
                            While your at it can you do something about world hunger or tooth decay????
                            bob


                            <<< to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com >>>
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.