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Re: [ksurf] Re: Foil to AR5 converts

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  • Stefano
    ... TOTALLY agree ! or wait for a 30 m naish ! (allthough i hear ther are some 12 and 13 meter foils in the works by many companies)
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 30, 2000
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      > If you're interested in low wind, hand on to your big foil. I
      > haven't flown the big IO, but I've spent lots of time with Mossie 9+,
      > and it goes substantially lower than the AR5 15.5. I'd assume
      > they're pretty similar. Obviously range is fairly small and it
      > doesn't deal all that well with gusts. But it definately goes in
      > lower wind. you can be out with it while guys with their giant sleds
      > are just watching. If that matters to you then keep it!

      TOTALLY agree ! or wait for a 30 m naish ! (allthough i hear ther are some
      12 and 13 meter foils in the works by many companies)
    • Stefano
      ... Try a stamos ! never see it collapse . If you can t get away from ... sled kites fall out of the sky a lot too... I am not in support of either type (as i
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 30, 2000
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        > One major thing I've been noticeing over the past year...everywhere
        > I
        > kiteboard and see foils, they are collapsing...while I am still
        > riding. The only 'foil' I've seen that works MUCH better (but still
        > occasionally collapses) is the PL Arc

        Try a stamos ! never see it collapse


        . If you can't get away from
        > foils, get one of those. But if you can, get a sled kite...

        sled kites fall out of the sky a lot too...

        I am not in support of either type (as i ride both) but at least choose a
        kite for the right reasons ! a sled is great because of the power range...
        not because of the lack of luffing..
      • Dave Raue
        ... maybe they re still too new :-) ... Right on, Stefano. I ride both too, and I ve seen sleds drop from the sky many times. IMHO skill can do more to
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 30, 2000
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          > > One major thing I've been noticeing over the past year...
          > > everywhere I
          > > kiteboard and see foils, they are collapsing...while I am still
          > > riding. The only 'foil' I've seen that works MUCH better (but
          > > still occasionally collapses) is the PL Arc
          >
          > Try a stamos ! never see it collapse

          maybe they're still too new :-)

          > > If you can't get away from
          > > foils, get one of those. But if you can, get a sled kite...
          >
          > sled kites fall out of the sky a lot too...
          >
          > I am not in support of either type (as i ride both) but at
          > least choose a kite for the right reasons ! a sled is great
          > because of the power range...
          > not because of the lack of luffing..

          Right on, Stefano. I ride both too, and I've seen sleds drop from
          the sky many times. IMHO skill can do more to cause or prevent
          luffing than design. Moreover, when a foil luffs often you can catch
          it. Once a sled starts to luff, that's it - no recovery, no way.
          (But, maybe not 100% true? Once or twice when my 15.5 did start the
          luffing glide of death, but I jerked down both the rear lines very
          fast, so the LE snapped back up and the kite recovered. But this
          needs to be instantaneous and often you won't be able to do it.)

          -D
        • Jeff Quick
          Sure Sleds will luff and fall...but foils do it much more often... as of right now, I have yet to see a foil that is better overall than a sled... Jeff ...
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 30, 2000
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            Sure Sleds will luff and fall...but foils do it much more often...

            as of right now, I have yet to see a foil that is 'better' overall
            than a sled...

            Jeff

            --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Dave Raue" <theraves@e...> wrote:
            > > > One major thing I've been noticeing over the past year...
            > > > everywhere I
            > > > kiteboard and see foils, they are collapsing...while I am still
            > > > riding. The only 'foil' I've seen that works MUCH better (but
            > > > still occasionally collapses) is the PL Arc
            > >
            > > Try a stamos ! never see it collapse
            >
            > maybe they're still too new :-)
            >
            > > > If you can't get away from
            > > > foils, get one of those. But if you can, get a sled kite...
            > >
            > > sled kites fall out of the sky a lot too...
            > >
            > > I am not in support of either type (as i ride both) but at
            > > least choose a kite for the right reasons ! a sled is great
            > > because of the power range...
            > > not because of the lack of luffing..
            >
            > Right on, Stefano. I ride both too, and I've seen sleds drop from
            > the sky many times. IMHO skill can do more to cause or prevent
            > luffing than design. Moreover, when a foil luffs often you can
            catch
            > it. Once a sled starts to luff, that's it - no recovery, no way.
            > (But, maybe not 100% true? Once or twice when my 15.5 did start the
            > luffing glide of death, but I jerked down both the rear lines very
            > fast, so the LE snapped back up and the kite recovered. But this
            > needs to be instantaneous and often you won't be able to do it.)
            >
            > -D
          • Greg Walsh
            ... Absolutely not true. It has to depend on the foil and trim setting etc. A standard CA WaveEX on the slower VSS setting very rarely luffs and sits rock
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 30, 2000
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              --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Jeff Quick" <jquick1@h...> wrote:
              > Sure Sleds will luff and fall...but foils do it much more often...

              Absolutely not true. It has to depend on the foil and trim setting
              etc. A standard CA WaveEX on the slower VSS setting very rarely luffs
              and sits rock solid overhead while waterstarting. The same kite with
              a variable AOA system can be tuned super hot and is super luff
              resistant and recovers itself when it does luff. The NewWave is
              similarly very luff resistant.

              An AR5 on the other hand will luff if left unattended sitting at the
              top of the window in light or gusty conditions. In my limited
              experience it can only be saved from a luff if it drops to the side
              of the window and/or you catch it early enough.

              >
              > as of right now, I have yet to see a foil that is 'better' overall
              > than a sled...

              Definitely true where it counts, on the water kitesurfing in powered
              up conditions (smooth power, super effective trim loop). Possibly
              true for longevity (porosity of foils). Probably not true for setup-
              takedown time and care and maintenance (compact, no bladders, no
              pumps).

              >
              > Jeff
            • Dave Raue
              Greg speaks the truth and sees much. His magic is very powerful. -D ... luffs ... with ... the ... overall ... powered
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 30, 2000
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                Greg speaks the truth and sees much. His magic is very powerful.

                -D

                --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Greg Walsh" <gregwal@e...> wrote:
                > --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Jeff Quick" <jquick1@h...> wrote:
                > > Sure Sleds will luff and fall...but foils do it much more often...
                >
                > Absolutely not true. It has to depend on the foil and trim setting
                > etc. A standard CA WaveEX on the slower VSS setting very rarely
                luffs
                > and sits rock solid overhead while waterstarting. The same kite
                with
                > a variable AOA system can be tuned super hot and is super luff
                > resistant and recovers itself when it does luff. The NewWave is
                > similarly very luff resistant.
                >
                > An AR5 on the other hand will luff if left unattended sitting at
                the
                > top of the window in light or gusty conditions. In my limited
                > experience it can only be saved from a luff if it drops to the side
                > of the window and/or you catch it early enough.
                >
                > >
                > > as of right now, I have yet to see a foil that is 'better'
                overall
                > > than a sled...
                >
                > Definitely true where it counts, on the water kitesurfing in
                powered
                > up conditions (smooth power, super effective trim loop). Possibly
                > true for longevity (porosity of foils). Probably not true for setup-
                > takedown time and care and maintenance (compact, no bladders, no
                > pumps).
                >
                > >
                > > Jeff
              • Ian Young
                ... I still believe that experience level is also distorting some of the truths on this list. I fully endorse the benefits of 4-line sleds reefing ability.
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 30, 2000
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                  >> as of right now, I have yet to see a foil that is 'better' overall
                  >> than a sled...

                  >Definitely true where it counts, on the water kitesurfing in powered
                  >up conditions (smooth power, super effective trim loop).

                  I still believe that experience level is also distorting some of the
                  "truths" on this list.

                  I fully endorse the benefits of 4-line sleds reefing ability. But as your
                  experience grows to the intermediate-advanced level I have found in all but
                  VERY gusty conditions (ie 7+ knot increase above the average) I do not want
                  to give up any extra wind that comes my way - ie I edge my board even harder
                  and accelerate by foil to the edge of the wind window to scream upwind at
                  angles most windsurfers cannot believe is possible.

                  Of course you need a board that can handle the pressure without skipping out
                  too - a couple of weeks ago I was flying a CA 9m Wave EX fitted with my
                  VAoAS in 18 gusting to approx 23 knots - I was edging my board so hard in
                  one of the gusts (without any sign of skipping out) that I broke my bar
                  clean in half. The VAoAS centre line is also the safety line and even with
                  a major equipment failure like this one the kite came down nicely under
                  control in strong winds.

                  Cheers,
                  Ian Young

                  WinDesigns Australia - Australia's First Kite Ski & Surfing School (Since
                  1998)
                  ABN 39163012473 Registered for GST
                  9 Oliver Street Scarborough
                  WA 6019 AUSTRALIA
                  Phone/ Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                  Mobile: 0414 716 812
                  Webapage: www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/kiteski.html
                • Greg Walsh
                  ... overall ... powered ... as your ... all but ... not want ... even harder ... upwind at ... The key word there is better . I m agreeing that a foil is not
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 30, 2000
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                    --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Ian Young" <ianyoung@i...> wrote:
                    > >> as of right now, I have yet to see a foil that is 'better'
                    overall
                    > >> than a sled...
                    >
                    > >Definitely true where it counts, on the water kitesurfing in
                    powered
                    > >up conditions (smooth power, super effective trim loop).
                    >
                    > I still believe that experience level is also distorting some of the
                    > "truths" on this list.
                    >
                    > I fully endorse the benefits of 4-line sleds reefing ability. But
                    as your
                    > experience grows to the intermediate-advanced level I have found in
                    all but
                    > VERY gusty conditions (ie 7+ knot increase above the average) I do
                    not want
                    > to give up any extra wind that comes my way - ie I edge my board
                    even harder
                    > and accelerate by foil to the edge of the wind window to scream
                    upwind at
                    > angles most windsurfers cannot believe is possible.

                    The key word there is "better". I'm agreeing that a foil is
                    not "better" than a sled (the AR5 specifically) when powered up and
                    charging. I'm not saying that a sled is better than a foil, just that
                    the converse is not necessarily true.

                    Of late I have really nailed this edging thing and I can crank hard
                    and cruise upwind easily matching my best windsurfing upwind
                    performance (and I claim some expertise at going upwind on a
                    sailboard). Most of my technique improvements have come since using
                    the AR5. I suspect the better weather and smoother winds may have
                    something to do with it. I look forward to the coming long summer
                    when I can get out on the CA for quick after work sessions. It will
                    be interesting to compare the CA and the 11.5 AR5. At the moment I
                    know the 11.5 AR5 has a lot more low end grunt than the CA 7.2. I'm
                    not prepared to comment on the upper end power until I have more
                    experience with both. I suspect my improved technique will be
                    reflected in much better range in the CA too.

                    Certainly with the 11.5 I can edge hard and watch the kite leap
                    forward to the edge of the window. I haven't used the trim loop yet
                    to reduce power because the wind was too strong for the kite at the
                    full power setting. However, towards the end of a really good session
                    last night my legs were so tired I just couldn't be bothered edging
                    any more. (I was going to say poor old legs but I think your legs
                    are older than mine.) I simply hooked into the trim loop, flattened
                    out the board a little and cruised home with no decrease in board
                    speed and only a slight decrease in upwind angle.

                    You're dead right about the edging thing but when you've reached the
                    absolute end of your ability to edge it still increases your range if
                    you can pull a little trim loop and keep going. It's all relative to
                    your current start and end points.

                    Just trying to get a little accuracy in the foil vs. sled debate.
                    There have been a few exaggerated claims in both directions.

                    Greg
                  • Stefano
                    ... bad foils... ... depends on what your overall means... if its wind range then ok if its antiluffing and very quick relaunch then a foil might be a better
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 31, 2000
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                      > Sure Sleds will luff and fall...but foils do it much more often...

                      bad foils...

                      >
                      > as of right now, I have yet to see a foil that is 'better' overall
                      > than a sled...


                      depends on what your "overall" means... if its wind range then ok if its
                      antiluffing and very quick relaunch then a foil might be a better choice
                    • traction@conceptair.com
                      We do have a 12.5 EX S WAVE since a while, here at CONCEPT AIR . HUGE amount of power... :0) 4-5 knots and you are planning. Enjoy the breeze & fly safe!
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 31, 2000
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                        We do have a 12.5 EX'S WAVE since a while, here at CONCEPT AIR . HUGE
                        amount of power... :0)

                        4-5 knots and you are planning.



                        Enjoy the breeze & fly safe!
                        Michel Montminy
                        Concept Air Traction Wings
                        201, boul. Tadoussac
                        Canton Tremblay, (Qc)
                        Canada, G7H 5A8
                        traction@...
                        www.conceptair.com
                        KITESURF SPECIALIST
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Stefano <stefano.rosso@...>
                        To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 11:14 AM
                        Subject: Re: [ksurf] Re: Foil to AR5 converts


                        > > If you're interested in low wind, hand on to your big foil. I
                        > > haven't flown the big IO, but I've spent lots of time with Mossie 9+,
                        > > and it goes substantially lower than the AR5 15.5. I'd assume
                        > > they're pretty similar. Obviously range is fairly small and it
                        > > doesn't deal all that well with gusts. But it definately goes in
                        > > lower wind. you can be out with it while guys with their giant sleds
                        > > are just watching. If that matters to you then keep it!
                        >
                        > TOTALLY agree ! or wait for a 30 m naish ! (allthough i hear ther are some
                        > 12 and 13 meter foils in the works by many companies)
                        >
                        >
                        > The Kitesurf Group is sponsored by windTools -
                        > The first foils with a real depower and safety System: Stamos and
                        Mosquito II Pro KS
                        >
                        > For more informations, please visit: www.windTools.com
                        >
                        > <<< to unsubscribe send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@egroups.com >>>
                        >
                      • Ronald Kittag
                        ... but ... want ... harder ... I have to back Ians opinion. I have two Waterfoils (3.6 and 5.7) and two Pickleforks (142cm and 170cm). With this quiver I
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 31, 2000
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                          > I fully endorse the benefits of 4-line sleds reefing ability. But as your
                          > experience grows to the intermediate-advanced level I have found in all
                          but
                          > VERY gusty conditions (ie 7+ knot increase above the average) I do not
                          want
                          > to give up any extra wind that comes my way - ie I edge my board even
                          harder
                          > and accelerate by foil to the edge of the wind window to scream upwind at
                          > angles most windsurfers cannot believe is possible.

                          I have to back Ians opinion.
                          I have two Waterfoils (3.6 and 5.7) and two Pickleforks (142cm and 170cm).
                          With this quiver I cover 3 to 7 bft (10-28knots)
                          The range I get is from my boards not from my kites!

                          Later Ronald

                          PS: today was one of these days where my small picklefork and my small
                          Waterfoil would start to get me overpowered. HEHE!
                        • David Trewern
                          Hey, that sounds pretty damn good... Are you having fun in this range (staying up-wind, jumping etc?). If so, they sound like great kites. I didn t realise
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 31, 2000
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                            Hey, that sounds pretty damn good...

                            Are you having fun in this range (staying up-wind, jumping etc?). If so,
                            they sound like great kites. I didn't realise the 5.7 was so powerful, and
                            conversely could be handled in so much wind.

                            DT

                            > I have to back Ians opinion.
                            > I have two Waterfoils (3.6 and 5.7) and two Pickleforks (142cm and 170cm).
                            > With this quiver I cover 3 to 7 bft (10-28knots)
                            > The range I get is from my boards not from my kites!
                            >
                            > Later Ronald
                          • Ronald Kittag
                            ... 8 knots is planing and not loosing ground. Fun starts at 10 knots on the big waterfoil and the big pickleforce (including jumps). I switch to the small
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 1, 2000
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                              > Hey, that sounds pretty damn good...
                              >
                              > Are you having fun in this range (staying up-wind, jumping etc?). If so,
                              > they sound like great kites. I didn't realise the 5.7 was so powerful, and
                              > conversely could be handled in so much wind.
                              >
                              > DT

                              8 knots is planing and not loosing ground. Fun starts at 10 knots on the big
                              waterfoil and the big pickleforce (including jumps). I switch to the small
                              waterfoil when the wind is about 17 knots but still use the big board. In
                              this setup i can handle up to 25 knots. I start using the small picklefork
                              in combination with the smaller kite when it's more than 20 knots.
                              I still believe that the range is coming from the boards not from the kites.
                              If you start getting overpowered on a picklefork, just edge harder and you
                              regain control.

                              Later
                              Ronald
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