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Re: [ksurf] 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap

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  • Dwight & Jacky
    This explanation has just helped me understand what I experienced tonight. After my ladder lock buckle broke, my kite was flying too nose high. All jumps after
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1, 2000
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      This explanation has just helped me understand what I experienced tonight.
      After my ladder lock buckle broke, my kite was flying too nose high. All
      jumps after that, were high speed and low. Before the buckle broke I was
      having a great night with the strap pulled a few inches and riding in the
      trim loop very powered up. More powered than I've ever been before using my
      9.5. My trim loop rope is about 3/4 the length of the factory Naish rope.
      This made it more enjoyable to ride with. I could comfortably reach the bar
      with it let out all the way, resting against the knot.

      Thanks Ken,

      Dwight


      . Sure, pulling
      > the front lines too much makes the kite gutless in the air, but leaving
      the
      > kite at full power in powered conditions means premature liftoff and long,
      > low jumps. For any wind strength, board and rider there's an optimum power
      > setting somewhere between the extremes that makes for the highest jumps.
      >
      > KW
      > www.kenwinner.com
    • Jeff Quick
      Ya, I agree there is that sweet spot. Luckily, the area I sail has reasonably consistent winds. I hardly ever have to ride in the trim loop, so it may be
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 1, 2000
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        Ya, I agree there is that sweet spot. Luckily, the area I sail has
        reasonably consistent winds. I hardly ever 'have' to ride in the
        trim
        loop, so it may be my lack of experience with riding in it.

        I have a 5'10" Cabrinha, which edges almost as hard as a wakeboard,
        making it easier to 'survive' any gusts that hit, without using the
        trim loop. One reason I like the top lines slack, is that that kite
        is very hard to luff, even if you swing under it, and the jumps
        higher
        and hangtimes longer than the smaller kites (once I got used to the
        timing of the 15.5). But when the wind is steady 20 MPH or more, the
        jumps are lower, and I get shot downwind fast, since to the kite, I
        don't weigh very much. I guess this is when to use the trim loop
        riding technique (or go down a size to the 11.5). Unfortunately, the
        wind rarely averages 22 MPH or more where I ride, so I can't
        officially test it. (Ken, let me know if you have anymore info in
        this.)

        Referring back to earlier posts "the 15.5 really has range!" 12 MPH
        to 18 MPH out of the loop, 18MPH to 25(?) in the loop? Wow! I love
        that kite!

        Jeff


        --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Ken Winner" <kwinner@g...> wrote:
        > >>>From: "Jeff Quick" <jquick1@h...>
        > Subject: Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap
        >
        > Also, has anyone noticed that when riding in the trim loop the kite
        > will pull perfectly at first, but then 'gives up' when it gets to
        the
        > edge of the window? <<<<
        >
        > This shouldn't be a problem. If you're as powered as you say (and I
        don't
        > doubt it), you should only have to sheet in to power up. My
        experience
        > while riding in gusty, powered conditions (gusting over 35 mph with
        a Naish
        > 7.5, gusting over 20 with a 15.5) is that the trim loop makes
        riding
        and
        > jumping so easy it feels like cheating.
        >
        > Of course, I also like to jump unhooked and out of the trim loop.
        In
        which
        > case my experience is still at odds with some reports lately. Sure,
        pulling
        > the front lines too much makes the kite gutless in the air, but
        leaving the
        > kite at full power in powered conditions means premature liftoff
        and
        long,
        > low jumps. For any wind strength, board and rider there's an
        optimum
        power
        > setting somewhere between the extremes that makes for the highest
        jumps.
        >
        > KW
        > www.kenwinner.com
      • Jeff Quick
        I ve also noticed a difference riding with the kite trimmed in a bit with the webbing adjustment. Way easier riding! Actually totally relaxing too. But the
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 1, 2000
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          I've also noticed a difference riding with the kite trimmed in a bit
          with the webbing adjustment. Way easier riding! Actually totally
          relaxing too. But the jumps were too 'weak' feeling, and the kite
          almost luffed on every jump (did on a few). Thats why I mentioned
          the
          'trade off' in riding if you ride 99.999% in the main line, unless
          you
          are constantly reaching up and changing the web adjustment for your
          riding style...actually may be a good idea if done sparingly.

          To summarize:
          With top lines slack (and proper wind speed and technique), jumps are
          big, with long hangtimes, but riding is a bit strenuous, and a bit
          harder to go upwind. (you better be able to edge)

          But with kite trimmed in a bit with the webbing adjustment, the jumps
          dont have as much 'punch', but the riding is incredibly fluid and
          very
          easy to relax and go upwind. I finally had a chance to try this
          and feel the difference on Saturday.

          Please feel free to add to this, flame, agree, disagree, etc.

          Jeff


          --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Dwight & Jacky" <fishersfort@a...>
          wrote:
          > This explanation has just helped me understand what I experienced
          tonight.
          > After my ladder lock buckle broke, my kite was flying too nose
          high.
          All
          > jumps after that, were high speed and low. Before the buckle broke
          I
          was
          > having a great night with the strap pulled a few inches and riding
          in the
          > trim loop very powered up. More powered than I've ever been before
          using my
          > 9.5. My trim loop rope is about 3/4 the length of the factory Naish
          rope.
          > This made it more enjoyable to ride with. I could comfortably reach
          the bar
          > with it let out all the way, resting against the knot.
          >
          > Thanks Ken,
          >
          > Dwight
          >
          >
          > . Sure, pulling
          > > the front lines too much makes the kite gutless in the air, but
          leaving
          > the
          > > kite at full power in powered conditions means premature liftoff
          and long,
          > > low jumps. For any wind strength, board and rider there's an
          optimum power
          > > setting somewhere between the extremes that makes for the highest
          jumps.
          > >
          > > KW
          > > www.kenwinner.com
        • Dwight & Jacky
          ... From: Jeff Quick But when the wind is steady 20 MPH or more, the ... I think Ken just solved this problem with an earlier post. The jumps you describe in
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 1, 2000
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jeff Quick

            But when the wind is steady 20 MPH or more, the
            > jumps are lower, and I get shot downwind fast, since to the kite,

            I think Ken just solved this problem with an earlier post. The jumps you
            describe in very powered conditions are caused by having the kite trimmed
            too nose high for the conditions. There is a sweet spot and as it gets
            windier you may need to depower a little to get the high jumps back again. I
            experienced this, but didn't understand it until Ken pointed it out.

            Dwight
          • Ken Winner
            ... Subject: Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap I have a 5 10 Cabrinha, which edges almost as hard as a wakeboard. . .
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 1, 2000
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              >>>From: "Jeff Quick" <jquick1@...>
              Subject: Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap

              I have a 5'10" Cabrinha, which edges almost as hard as a wakeboard. . .<<<

              I've used the 5'10" Cabrinha and find it to be an excellent board. However,
              I use a 16" wide by 5' long Roberts wakeboard with my 15.5 and it's way
              more fun.

              >>...One reason I like the top lines slack, is that that kite
              is very hard to luff, even if you swing under it, ...<<<

              > .. . let me know if you have anymore info in
              this.<<<

              Short lines help. Don't know if you're doing that.

              Also, if you go fast before lift off (but not below a beam reach), and can
              steer the kite forward quickly after liftoff, you can get good glide
              without having the kite totally powered up.

              KW
            • kitesrfer@aol.com
              ... Subject: Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap I have a 5 10 Cabrinha, which edges almost as hard as a wakeboard. . .
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 2, 2000
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                >>>From: "Jeff Quick" <jquick1@...>
                Subject: Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap

                I have a 5'10" Cabrinha, which edges almost as hard as a wakeboard. . .<<<

                I've used the 5'10" Cabrinha and find it to be an excellent board. However,
                I use a 16" wide by 5' long Roberts wakeboard with my 15.5 and it's way
                more fun.

                >>...One reason I like the top lines slack, is that that kite
                is very hard to luff, even if you swing under it, ...<<<

                > .. . let me know if you have anymore info in
                this.<<<

                Short lines help. Don't know if you're doing that.

                Also, if you go fast before lift off (but not below a beam reach), and can
                steer the kite forward quickly after liftoff, you can get good glide
                without having the kite totally powered up.

                KW<<<<<

                I took my new Lightwave split-tail 5'8" wakeboard out with a AR5 15.5 m the
                other day. The seas were pretty choppy at 3' to 4', with the wind ranging
                from 14-18 kt. I hadn't used a wakeboard for kitesurfing in over a year and
                a half. What a difference and a lot of fun..thanks Lightwave Dave!!! You
                have to love those quick direction reversals, no gybes needed. Was a bit
                over powered with the 15.5 but managed very nicely with the trimmer loop.
                Didn't bother with the trimmer strap as the wind was too up and down to just
                set the strap and leave it. It is amazing what a little less board weight
                will do for your jumping.

                I was surprised at how hard it was to luff the kite as well on the starboard
                tack jumps with the wind from starboard. For some reason, operator error
                probably, the kite would end up way the hell upwind of me but would still fly
                out of it, no such problems with the port tack. I am probably not flying the
                kite back downwind aggressively enough to allow for the following wind and
                ground displacement. I am still using the stock Naish line, bridle setup,
                will have to give shorter lines a try. One very nice thing about the 15.5,
                you have power to spare even with wind in the mid teens to try things that
                often require wind near 20 kts. like wakeboards and 20 m lines. I have
                noticed with the 15.5 is that if you have enough wind to secure your lines to
                the knots closest to the kite, it really helps the kite speed/response and
                improves ease of jumping.

                Rick
              • Jeff Quick
                Hi Ken, What is the lowest wind speed you can go out in (with this wakeboard) and still have a great time (go upwind with small chop hops)? So far for me, its
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 2, 2000
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                  Hi Ken,

                  What is the lowest wind speed you can go out in (with this wakeboard)
                  and still have a great time (go upwind with small chop hops)? So far
                  for me, its steady 12-14 MPH (on the 5'10" Cabrinha, and 200lbs
                  bodyweight with the 15.5 Naish). Any windspeed below that, and its a
                  pain, too much work, and no fun.

                  I want to go full on wake-n-style, but my main concern is the wind
                  requirements. I only want to have one board, and not have to lug
                  around a 6'+ board just for those super light days. It would be
                  great
                  to ride a 4' to 5' wakeboard in conditions ranging from 12 MPH on up,
                  rather than have one big board for days below 15 MPH. Maybe the 20.0
                  Naish is the answer? I have a 10.5 C Quad, which supposedly
                  out-performs the 20.0 (per Kane). With this kite and the 5'10", I
                  can
                  ride in winds as light as 10 MPH with good results, but it won't
                  water
                  relaunch...so not much fun. I believe with a wakeboard, it would
                  take
                  steady 12 MPH winds for decent riding with the 10.5 C Quad (and 20.0
                  Naish). I don't think the 15.5 would have enough 'kick' to ride a
                  regular sized wakeboard in 12 MPH winds. Do you have any ideas or
                  experience with this?

                  Thanks,
                  Jeff

                  --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Ken Winner" <kwinner@g...> wrote:
                  > >>>From: "Jeff Quick" <jquick1@h...>
                  > Subject: Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap
                  >
                  > I have a 5'10" Cabrinha, which edges almost as hard as a wakeboard.
                  . .<<<
                  >
                  > I've used the 5'10" Cabrinha and find it to be an excellent board.
                  However,
                  > I use a 16" wide by 5' long Roberts wakeboard with my 15.5 and it's
                  way
                  > more fun.
                  >
                  > >>...One reason I like the top lines slack, is that that kite
                  > is very hard to luff, even if you swing under it, ...<<<
                  >
                  > > .. . let me know if you have anymore info in
                  > this.<<<
                  >
                  > Short lines help. Don't know if you're doing that.
                  >
                  > Also, if you go fast before lift off (but not below a beam reach),
                  and can
                  > steer the kite forward quickly after liftoff, you can get good glide
                  > without having the kite totally powered up.
                  >
                  > KW
                • Dave Raue
                  FWIW I got a 5 8 litewave and I ve found it s very useable in practically the same conditions as 6 6 Fox directional. I m your size, my biggest kite is 7.5
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 2, 2000
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                    FWIW I got a 5'8" litewave and I've found it's very useable in practically
                    the same conditions as 6'6" Fox directional. I'm your size, my biggest kite
                    is 7.5 mossie and it works fine in 12-14 kts (a little more wind , a little
                    less kite). You just can't slog through a lull.

                    -D
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Jeff Quick" <jquick1@...>
                    To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 12:17 PM
                    Subject: [ksurf] Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap


                    > Hi Ken,
                    >
                    > What is the lowest wind speed you can go out in (with this wakeboard)
                    > and still have a great time (go upwind with small chop hops)? So far
                    > for me, its steady 12-14 MPH (on the 5'10" Cabrinha, and 200lbs
                    > bodyweight with the 15.5 Naish). Any windspeed below that, and its a
                    > pain, too much work, and no fun.
                    >
                    > I want to go full on wake-n-style, but my main concern is the wind
                    > requirements. I only want to have one board, and not have to lug
                    > around a 6'+ board just for those super light days. It would be
                    > great
                    > to ride a 4' to 5' wakeboard in conditions ranging from 12 MPH on up,
                    > rather than have one big board for days below 15 MPH. Maybe the 20.0
                    > Naish is the answer? I have a 10.5 C Quad, which supposedly
                    > out-performs the 20.0 (per Kane). With this kite and the 5'10", I
                    > can
                    > ride in winds as light as 10 MPH with good results, but it won't
                    > water
                    > relaunch...so not much fun. I believe with a wakeboard, it would
                    > take
                    > steady 12 MPH winds for decent riding with the 10.5 C Quad (and 20.0
                    > Naish). I don't think the 15.5 would have enough 'kick' to ride a
                    > regular sized wakeboard in 12 MPH winds. Do you have any ideas or
                    > experience with this?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Jeff
                    >
                    > --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Ken Winner" <kwinner@g...> wrote:
                    > > >>>From: "Jeff Quick" <jquick1@h...>
                    > > Subject: Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap
                    > >
                    > > I have a 5'10" Cabrinha, which edges almost as hard as a wakeboard.
                    > . .<<<
                    > >
                    > > I've used the 5'10" Cabrinha and find it to be an excellent board.
                    > However,
                    > > I use a 16" wide by 5' long Roberts wakeboard with my 15.5 and it's
                    > way
                    > > more fun.
                    > >
                    > > >>...One reason I like the top lines slack, is that that kite
                    > > is very hard to luff, even if you swing under it, ...<<<
                    > >
                    > > > .. . let me know if you have anymore info in
                    > > this.<<<
                    > >
                    > > Short lines help. Don't know if you're doing that.
                    > >
                    > > Also, if you go fast before lift off (but not below a beam reach),
                    > and can
                    > > steer the kite forward quickly after liftoff, you can get good glide
                    > > without having the kite totally powered up.
                    > >
                    > > KW
                    >
                    >
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                  • Ken Winner
                    ... Subject: Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap Hi Ken, What is the lowest wind speed you can go out in (with this wakeboard) and still have a great time (go
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 2, 2000
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                      >>>From: "Jeff Quick" <jquick1@...>
                      Subject: Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap

                      Hi Ken,
                      What is the lowest wind speed you can go out in (with this wakeboard)
                      and still have a great time (go upwind with small chop hops)?<<<

                      I (180 pounds) was staying upwind in a carefully measured steady 8 knots at
                      sea level on a warm day using a directional 18" wide. On my 5' x 16"
                      wakeboard I stay upwind comfortably and jump in 12 knots. I suspect, though
                      I don't know for sure, that I could stay upwind and jump in 10 knots on the
                      wakeboard.

                      Haven't had much light air lately, so can't say any more than that
                      wakeboards have surprised me with their windward ability.

                      KW
                      www.kenwinner.com
                    • Jeff Quick
                      Actually good to hear! Same situation with me. Eight knots or so with a 6 6 directional and 10.5 C Quad was my lowest reliable riding, though I once got
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 3, 2000
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                        Actually good to hear! Same situation with me. Eight knots or
                        so with a 6'6" directional and 10.5 C Quad was my lowest reliable
                        riding, though I once got myself going in 6 MPH steady...but too much
                        work and too big of a chance the kite would fall out of the sky. If
                        I
                        can get going on a 157 CM wakeboard in steady 8 knots or more...then
                        this sport is even MORE incredible than it already is.

                        Thanks for the info.

                        Jeff

                        --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Ken Winner" <kwinner@g...> wrote:
                        > >>>From: "Jeff Quick" <jquick1@h...>
                        > Subject: Re: 9.5 - 15.5 wind range overlap
                        >
                        > Hi Ken,
                        > What is the lowest wind speed you can go out in (with this
                        wakeboard)
                        > and still have a great time (go upwind with small chop hops)?<<<
                        >
                        > I (180 pounds) was staying upwind in a carefully measured steady 8
                        knots at
                        > sea level on a warm day using a directional 18" wide. On my 5' x 16"
                        > wakeboard I stay upwind comfortably and jump in 12 knots. I
                        suspect,
                        though
                        > I don't know for sure, that I could stay upwind and jump in 10
                        knots
                        on the
                        > wakeboard.
                        >
                        > Haven't had much light air lately, so can't say any more than that
                        > wakeboards have surprised me with their windward ability.
                        >
                        > KW
                        > www.kenwinner.com
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