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Re: [ksurf] Please explain "edge harder"

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  • Ronald Kittag
    ... Absolutely right. Thats the reason the Jimmy Lewis Wakeboards have a swallow tail. - To sink the tail deeper in order to edge harder.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 1, 2000
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      > I guess what I'm saying is I seem to be able to edge harder if I sink the
      > rear edge of the board more.

      Absolutely right. Thats the reason the Jimmy Lewis Wakeboards have a swallow
      tail. -> To sink the tail deeper in order to edge harder.
    • Dwight & Jacky
      ... I agree with that. I added inserts and moved my straps back to accomplish this. If you ride foils, your straps may be too far forward. On my 6 6 board my
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 1, 2000
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        >
        > I guess what I'm saying is I seem to be able to edge harder if I sink the
        > rear edge of the board more.

        I agree with that. I added inserts and moved my straps back to accomplish
        this. If you ride foils, your straps may be too far forward. On my 6'6 board
        my rear insert was at 12" and I moved it back to 10 1/2. On Jacky's 5'6 the
        rear insert is at 10". On my 5'9 my rear insert is at 12". On many boards
        I've seen, riders are limited to 14" as their rear most insert. On my 7'2
        14" was right. Different boards require different placement, yours may not
        be perfect. I sold my 6'6 and 7'2, the 5'9 does it all and is easier to ride
        like Rad dude #2.

        Dwight

        http://www.angelfire.com/nc/capefearwindsurfing/kitesurfing.html
      • Greg Walsh
        Thanks for the tips all. Sounds like edge harder means push down harder. This could be time for a few skier type thigh strenthening exercises. It sounds
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 1, 2000
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          Thanks for the tips all. Sounds like "edge harder" means push down
          harder. This could be time for a few skier type thigh strenthening
          exercises.

          It sounds reasonable that my straps have been set up too far forward
          for a foil as Alex the Stonker man is a Wipika pilot. I'll try moving
          my straps further back, though I have limited scope for that without
          putting in new plugs. I may end up with a wider stance and I feel
          that
          has been limiting my ability to edge strongly.

          Greg

          --- In kitesurf@egroups.com, "Dwight & Jacky" <fishersfort@a...>
          wrote:
          > >
          > > I guess what I'm saying is I seem to be able to edge harder if I
          sink the
          > > rear edge of the board more.
          >
          > I agree with that. I added inserts and moved my straps back to
          accomplish
          > this. If you ride foils, your straps may be too far forward. On my
          6'6 board
          > my rear insert was at 12" and I moved it back to 10 1/2. On Jacky's
          5'6 the
          > rear insert is at 10". On my 5'9 my rear insert is at 12". On many
          boards
          > I've seen, riders are limited to 14" as their rear most insert. On
          my 7'2
          > 14" was right. Different boards require different placement, yours
          may not
          > be perfect. I sold my 6'6 and 7'2, the 5'9 does it all and is
          easier
          to ride
          > like Rad dude #2.
          >
          > Dwight
          >
          > http://www.angelfire.com/nc/capefearwindsurfing/kitesurfing.html
        • Ian Young
          ... Yes - but on the upwind EDGE of the board ie bury the edge of the board as deep as you can get it in strong winds as, or JUST BEFORE, you become
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 1, 2000
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            >Thanks for the tips all. Sounds like "edge harder" means push down harder.

            Yes - but on the upwind EDGE of the board ie bury the edge of the board as
            deep as you can get it in strong winds as, or JUST BEFORE, you become
            overpowered.

            >This could be time for a few skier type thigh strengthening exercises.

            Not really - you only have to hold the pressure for a short time. While
            holding the edge, apply bottom line pressure to keep the kite flying low and
            horizontally and watch the kite drive to the edge of the wind window until
            the pressure eases. With a slower kite you will have to hold the pressure
            for longer.

            >It sounds reasonable that my straps have been set up too far forward
            >for a foil as Alex the Stonker man is a Wipika pilot.

            This shouldn't make any difference. Alex's boards are fine, but ours are
            better ;-)

            Most people used to think our boards were too narrow but as their skills are
            improving they can see that it's much easier to get good rail control with a
            narrower board. I still teach with the same board and most learners do not
            have any problem with a narrow board - it only seems to be people who are
            already set in a paradigm of a wide board with two straps up front.

            One critical issue with board design is rail control and this is affected by
            having one or two foot-straps up front. With two straps up front you can't
            get your foot across the stringer as far and must go for a wider board to
            avoid having your heel drag in the water. With a single strap up front you
            get excellent "heel-toe" rail control which makes wave riding and jibing so
            much easier and under control. You can still switch stance easily with a
            single strap up front and I have yet to lose a board in a jump, loop or spin
            as a result of having of a single strap up front.

            Also a wider board has more buoyancy. The more buoyancy the harder it is to
            sink the edge to hold the power and go upwind.

            >I may end up with a wider stance

            That probably won't hurt but optimum stance should be a little wider than
            shoulder width.

            Cheers,
            Ian Young

            WinDesigns Australia - Australia's First Kite Ski & Surfing School
            9 Oliver Street Scarborough
            WA 6019 AUSTRALIA
            Phone/ Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
            Mobile: 0414 716 812
            Webapage: www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/kiteski.html
          • KiteBoard@aol.com
            In a message dated 00-06-01 18:56:49 EDT, gregwal@enternet.com.au writes:
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 1, 2000
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              In a message dated 00-06-01 18:56:49 EDT, gregwal@... writes:

              << I'll try moving
              my straps further back, though I have limited scope for that without
              putting in new plugs. >>

              First try just bending your back leg a lot, & holding your bar/handles as far
              towards the back of the board as you can. That puts the loads further aft,
              similar to having straps further aft. See if it makes any difference. If
              not, there's no need to move the straps.

              Mel
            • Gunnar Westholm
              Ian Young wrote ... Hmm.. i think it s a more complex problem, A Narrow and evenly thick board CAN have more buoyancy and be harder to edge than a wide board
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 2, 2000
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                Ian Young wrote

                > Also a wider board has more buoyancy. The more buoyancy the harder it is to
                > sink the edge to hold the power and go upwind.

                Hmm.. i think it's a more complex problem,

                A Narrow and evenly thick board CAN have more buoyancy and be harder to edge than a wide board whit thinner edges and the buoyancy and weight more concentrated in the middle,

                BUT on a wider board, the lever when you are lifting the weight of the downwind edge gets longer and it can be harder to edge then on a narrow board,

                So it's not ONLY the buoyancy and the width that matters, but allso the shape

                O SHIT, will i ever get the courage to build me a new board . (what shape is it , Mans ??? surprise or what???)

                ///Gunnar
              • KiteBoard@aol.com
                In a message dated 00-06-02 08:40:16 EDT, gunnar.helena@c2i.net writes:
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 2, 2000
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                  In a message dated 00-06-02 08:40:16 EDT, gunnar.helena@... writes:

                  << Hmm.. i think it's a more complex problem, >>

                  Maybe.

                  How much difference can buoyancy make, when all that's touching the water is
                  the bottom surface of the board? I'd think surface area would matter more.

                  How much difference can width make, if your heels are the same distance from
                  the windward edge, & the leeward edge is in the air? (on a wider board) I'd
                  think strap placement would matter more - both lateral & logitudinal (further
                  forward to dig more rail)

                  Mel
                • Stefano
                  ... is ... more. thats if you are allways powered up ! if you are underpowered for even 1 second then buoyancy will keep you planing through the lull OR
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 2, 2000
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                    >
                    > << Hmm.. i think it's a more complex problem, >>
                    >
                    > Maybe.
                    >
                    > How much difference can buoyancy make, when all that's touching the water
                    is
                    > the bottom surface of the board? I'd think surface area would matter
                    more.

                    thats if you are allways powered up ! if you are underpowered for even 1
                    second then buoyancy will keep you planing through the lull OR another case
                    is if you are starting to plane - buoyancy will get you planing faster
                  • Steve McCormack
                    Hi Stefano, In physics water and air are both fluids right? So from my understanding it must be mainly surface area that affects planing, I m not sure where
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 2, 2000
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                      Hi Stefano,

                      In physics water and air are both fluids right? So from my understanding it
                      must be mainly surface area that affects planing, I'm not sure where
                      buoyancy comes into board design. Over here we sell and use Underground
                      boards that are 1.95M and only 35mm thick divinicell/epoxy and they do not
                      have much buoyancy they are reasonably wide and are flat bottomed and they
                      plane very easily.
                      I think buoyancy/volume and length contribute to greater ability to stay on
                      the plane in lulls.
                      Footstrap placement on bigger boards is very important for me as I only
                      weigh 68kg. I wish board manufacturers would put a lot more plugs in their
                      boards to give a wider range of adjustment.
                      My latest Stonker 1.85M will have extra plugs to double the range of
                      adjustment, and swivel thrusters too, can't wait to get it.
                      Leverage and buoyancy must make a difference to how hard it is to edge a
                      particular board though ? What do you think?
                      Cya and
                      Goodwinds
                      Steve McCormack
                      sydney@...
                      www.kitepower.com.au
                    • Stefano
                      ... Not just in physics ! So from my understanding it ... Planing is not similar to a foil flying through the air.. a planing surface is working on a boundary
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 2, 2000
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                        >
                        > In physics water and air are both fluids right?

                        Not just in physics !

                        So from my understanding it
                        > must be mainly surface area that affects planing, I'm not sure where
                        > buoyancy comes into board design.

                        Planing is not similar to a foil flying through the air.. a planing surface
                        is working on a boundary between two different fluids..air and water... its
                        ruled by VERY complex formulas (so complex in fact that there are hardly any
                        formulas worth using in a practical sense)... most planing work is figured
                        out empirically - thats why the best board shapers are the most
                        experienced - they know what works and what doesnt.

                        Buoyancy comes in when you are marginally planning - As i said - if you are
                        totally powered up ALL the time then it doesnt matter as the water will
                        effectively only notice the bottom of the board. When you stop planning for
                        a second even (it happens when you land from a jump) then the buoyancy comes
                        into effect... not that more buoyancy will make you plane earlier so its
                        good. It will also make the board less stable etc etc... a no buoyancy board
                        is fine in Totally powered conditions,,, in normal conditions buoyancy is a
                        factor - but it has to be finely tuned so as not to reduce the performance
                        of the board.

                        Over here we sell and use Underground
                        > boards that are 1.95M and only 35mm thick divinicell/epoxy and they do not
                        > have much buoyancy they are reasonably wide and are flat bottomed and they
                        > plane very easily.

                        if you are nicely powered ...also a flat bottom helps plane through lulls -
                        wakeboard have a lot of rocker over a short lenght = plane little through
                        lulls

                        > I think buoyancy/volume and length contribute to greater ability to stay
                        on
                        > the plane in lulls.

                        yep !


                        > Leverage and buoyancy must make a difference to how hard it is to edge a
                        > particular board though ? What do you think

                        Kiteboards are even more complicated because they dont sail flat... this
                        makes their water line a cross section of the board which is why thickness
                        in the sides is an issue - if there is a lot of volume to the edges then you
                        cant sink the edge -

                        Designing a kiteboard is a nice challenge huh ?
                      • Steve McCormack
                        Hi Stefano ... In reality - right?? :-o)) ... Yep, thats why I m sticking to running 2 shops stocking thousands of products raising children and just using
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 2, 2000
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                          Hi Stefano


                          > > In physics water and air are both fluids right?
                          >
                          > Not just in physics !

                          In reality - right?? :-o))

                          > Designing a kiteboard is a nice challenge huh ?

                          Yep, thats why I'm sticking to running 2 shops stocking thousands of
                          products raising children and just using other peoples products way
                          easier!!! :-)
                          Thanks for the very informative answer, makes me very appreciative of the
                          Legainoux bros, Lynn's, Montague's, Salle's, Preston's, Rogallo's, Wright's
                          etc etc, work. We need all of them to keep at it and one day we will have
                          even better kites and gear. Cya and
                          Goodwinds
                          Steve McCormack
                          sydney@...
                          www.kitepower.com.au
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