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[ksurf] Re: Help me please!!!

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  • Eric Steinbroner
    Martin: My two cents.... 8.5 Wipika and 20 Kts. of wind is more than enough wind/power. I weigh 100 kg and use the Kiteski 7.0 in 20 Kts. The Kiteski kite
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 11, 1999
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      Martin:

      My two cents....

      8.5 Wipika and 20 Kts. of wind is more than enough wind/power. I weigh 100
      kg and use the Kiteski 7.0 in 20 Kts. The Kiteski kite may be a little more
      efficient, especially on the window's edge, but with 20 Kts., you should
      have way more wind/power than you need.

      I wouldn't go with a bigger board. I believe smaller is better because that
      allows you to use the board's edge as your lateral resistance.

      Are you flying the kite at the edge of the window? Once you get it there,
      do you fly your kite is small S patterns to keep it on the edge of the
      window? It's also important to keep your speed up all of the time. Keep
      your power up by flying the S pattern, and edge harder if you find that
      you're overpowered. But don't edge so hard that you completely lose
      power... you'll have to bear off downwind to get speed again, losing your
      hard earned upwind position. If it's gusty, edge during the puffs, and keep
      the board flat and fast during the lulls.

      I can't help on the gybe as I've got my front foot in a wakeboard binding
      and change from toe edge to heel edge.... But my next board will have
      straps. My guess is that you keep your feet in the straps until you are
      fully planing, then quickly switch.

      Eric




      -----Original Message-----
      From: Martin Rothwell [mailto:martin@...]
      Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 4:46 AM
      To: kitesurf@egroups.com
      Subject: [ksurf] Help me please!!!


      Hello everyone!

      Hope you all had a good weekend with good wind for Kitesurfing. I am
      hoping that someone can answer a few questions and explain where I am
      going wrong.

      I have been kitesurfing whenever possible for the last 6-8 months. I
      have 8.5 and 3.5sqm Wipikas and use a 2.15 F-One Kitesurf board. I weigh
      80kg. This weekend I used the 8.5 in about 20 Knots of wind with 15
      metre lines (two lined wing). The session was the best so far. It was
      pretty extreme and the fastest I have ever been. It seems to me that it
      is easier to kitesurf when the wind is at the top end of the scale
      rather than the bottom. Does anyone agree?

      I have two problems which I need help with:

      1. I cannot go upwind yet. What is the secret? Some of you have said in
      previous messages that you go upwind really well. Is it that the
      equipment I use is not the best to learn with or is it just my
      technique? I have thought about trying bigger fins or moving the
      footsraps forward so my weight is more central on the board to get more
      rail in the water or even trying a bigger board. How do you do it? Any
      tips?

      2. What is the best technique for a gybe turn? I have been trying to
      throw myself into the turn keeping my feet in position and then as I
      come out of the turn facing the opposite direction I try and change my
      feet. It is at this point I crash and burn.

      These are the two main problems. I can always get up and going and even
      pull a little air although sometimes unexpected.

      I hope someone can help me.

      Thanks in advance.

      Martin
      UK Kitesurfer (trying)




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    • Michel Montmigny
      ... Hello Martin, for sure the Wipika is a very good kite for water purpose because it float. But for sure it is not the best to go upwind. You will have
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 11, 1999
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        Martin Rothwell wrote:
        >
        > Hello everyone!
        >
        > Hope you all had a good weekend with good wind for Kitesurfing. I am
        > hoping that someone can answer a few questions and explain where I am
        > going wrong.
        >
        > I have been kitesurfing whenever possible for the last 6-8 months. I
        > have 8.5 and 3.5sqm Wipikas and use a 2.15 F-One Kitesurf board. I weigh
        > 80kg. This weekend I used the 8.5 in about 20 Knots of wind with 15
        > metre lines (two lined wing). The session was the best so far. It was
        > pretty extreme and the fastest I have ever been. It seems to me that it
        > is easier to kitesurf when the wind is at the top end of the scale
        > rather than the bottom. Does anyone agree?
        >
        > I have two problems which I need help with:
        >
        > 1. I cannot go upwind yet. What is the secret? Some of you have said in
        > previous messages that you go upwind really well. Is it that the
        > equipment I use is not the best to learn with or is it just my
        > technique? I have thought about trying bigger fins or moving the
        > footsraps forward so my weight is more central on the board to get more
        > rail in the water or even trying a bigger board. How do you do it? Any
        > tips?
        >
        > 2. What is the best technique for a gybe turn? I have been trying to
        > throw myself into the turn keeping my feet in position and then as I
        > come out of the turn facing the opposite direction I try and change my
        > feet. It is at this point I crash and burn.
        >
        > These are the two main problems. I can always get up and going and even
        > pull a little air although sometimes unexpected.
        >
        > I hope someone can help me.
        >
        > Thanks in advance.
        >
        > Martin
        > UK Kitesurfer (trying)
        >
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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        Hello Martin,

        for sure the Wipika is a very good kite for water purpose because it
        float. But for sure it' is not the best to go upwind.
        You will have better performance (a lot) with Soft TRACTIONtm kites or a
        delta.

        Michel Montminy
        Concept Air

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      • srosso@bunge.com.br
        === heres my 2 cents It seems to me that it is easier to kitesurf when the wind is at the top end of the scale rather than the bottom. Does anyone agree? ===
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 11, 1999
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          === heres my 2 cents

          It seems to me that it
          is easier to kitesurf when the wind is at the top end of the scale
          rather than the bottom. Does anyone agree?
          === sure ! actually i would say the middle is the most comfortable - 20kts
          for a wipika 8.5 seems like a lot to me.

          1. I cannot go upwind yet. <snip>Any tips?
          Moving forward on the board does help a bit - just move the straps all the
          way forward and then you move the back foot to the middle of the board -
          its not stable but it helps. the 8.5 wipika needs about 13-15 kts to go
          upwind well (from mine and others experience) and you need to feel that you
          are really pushing with your legs - if you r legs dont hurt you are not
          going upwind.

          2. What is the best technique for a gybe turn? <SNIP> It is at this point I
          crash and burn.

          == Switch your feet fast ! if i remember correctly you are a surfer so you
          are not used to switvching your feet - you could practice on a surfboard !
          Its like when you learn to surf and you have to get up on the board in one
          smooth move - it has to become automatic.

          my best tip is to try and keep some power in the kite so it gives you some
          lift and holds you up and makes you more stable - I think it is probably
          easier for people that come from windsurfing as we have been practicing for
          years but it is (like in windsurfing) a psychological barrier - Its much
          easier than you think if you stop thinking about it



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        • Steve Shapson
          Ram air foils(kites) do work better for upwind, but they don t relaunch off the water. Foils are great for snow, grass or hard surfaces. However, I would like
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 11, 1999
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            Ram air foils(kites) do work better for upwind, but they don't relaunch
            off the water. Foils are great for snow, grass or hard surfaces.
            However, I would like to hear from people about how easily you can
            relaunch the Wipika. I am considering this sail for water kiteskiing
            and kitesailing.

            Steve Shapson
            Force 10 Foils
            www.execpc.com/~force10

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          • Raphaël
            Contrarely to your belief, we actually are providing foils (kite) that are designed to be relaunched from the water, and they do work a lot better for upwind
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 11, 1999
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              Contrarely to your belief, we actually are providing foils (kite) that are
              designed to be relaunched from the water, and they do work a lot better for
              upwind performance than a Wipika.

              However I have a few Wipika, they were the only kite up to now to allow a
              high ratio of successfull water relaunch. As long as the wind is strong
              enough, theyr are extremely easy. I could almost say a little bit to easy
              eventually.

              All you have to do is (on the water)to let it drift downwind then position
              it correctly so it will rest on its ear(??) and finally let it go upwind,
              gliding on the water surface until it reach the windows edge. It will then
              take off slowly.

              Raphael
              Raphael@...
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Steve Shapson [mailto:force10@...]
              > Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 6:37 PM
              > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
              > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Help me please!!!
              >
              >
              > Ram air foils(kites) do work better for upwind, but they don't relaunch
              > off the water. Foils are great for snow, grass or hard surfaces.
              > However, I would like to hear from people about how easily you can
              > relaunch the Wipika. I am considering this sail for water kiteskiing
              > and kitesailing.
              >
              > Steve Shapson
              > Force 10 Foils
              > www.execpc.com/~force10
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > For the absolute lowest price on software visit:
              > http://www.bottomdollar.com/egroups/
              >
              > eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/kitesurf
              > Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
              >
              >
              >


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            • Martin Rothwell
              ... Hi Steve! I find the Wipika will re-launch from water at least 80% of the time. It launches better the more wind there is and the 20% when it doesn t is
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                Steve Shapson wrote:

                > I would like to hear from people about how easily you can
                > relaunch the Wipika. I am considering this sail for water kiteskiing
                > and kitesailing.

                Hi Steve!

                I find the Wipika will re-launch from water at least 80% of the time. It
                launches better the more wind there is and the 20% when it doesn't is when
                it's dumped in the shorebreak, swamped by water and/or not really enough
                wind to get it going again. I sailed at the weekend and it didn't hit the
                water once so no worries at all.

                Martin


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              • srosso@bunge.com.br
                JIBE : Same problem with 15 m lines its really difficult to jibe . Use 40 m . 1 Place the kite half way , between the water and the top . 2 Take you back foot
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                  JIBE :
                  Same problem with 15 m lines its really difficult to jibe .
                  Use 40 m .
                  1 Place the kite half way , between the water and the top .
                  2 Take you back foot out from back footstrap .


                  AHA ! I forgot to tell you this martin - you have to take your back foor
                  out of the strap before you start your jibe - you mentioned you kept your
                  feet in the straps throughout the whole turn ! I imagine you have a hard
                  time getting your feet out once you are twisted !

                  sorry - this is something we windsurfers take for granted because you need
                  the extra pressure on the inside rail !



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                • antoine carretero
                  ... please raphael , can you explain us how you relauche the two lines kite ., sory with my experience i can undersdtand how you can restart a two lines
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                    ----------
                    > De : Raphaël <Raphael@...> wrotte >
                    >Contrarely to your belief, we actually are providing foils (kite) that are
                    >designed to be relaunched from the water,.... >>>>>>

                    please raphael , can you explain us how you relauche the two lines kite .,
                    sory with my experience i can undersdtand how you can restart a two lines
                    kite ( soft kites )
                    when the front part is on the water ????

                    do you think that it'll be more beter and more easy in 3 lines or 4 lines
                    !!!!

                    Antoine Carretero

                    ADVANCE KITES Tethis and Janus . iO in april
                    E mail : team-advance-kites@... 
                    http://www.advance-kites.com





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                  • Michel Montmigny
                    ... Hello Steeve, Here Michel Montminy from CONCEPT AIR TRACTIONtm KITES. As you probably know, we do work very hard in developping soft kites for any purposes
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                      Steve Shapson wrote:
                      >
                      > Ram air foils(kites) do work better for upwind, but they don't relaunch
                      > off the water. Foils are great for snow, grass or hard surfaces.
                      > However, I would like to hear from people about how easily you can
                      > relaunch the Wipika. I am considering this sail for water kiteskiing
                      > and kitesailing.
                      >
                      > Steve Shapson
                      > Force 10 Foils
                      > www.execpc.com/~force10
                      >
                      > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > For the absolute lowest price on
                      > Software:
                      > CLICK HERE!
                      >
                      > eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/kitesurf
                      > Free Web-based e-mail groups by www.eGroups.com

                      Hello Steeve,

                      Here Michel Montminy from CONCEPT AIR TRACTIONtm KITES.

                      As you probably know, we do work very hard in developping soft kites for
                      any purposes that exist.

                      Since July 1998 we do have a waterstart kites (no balloon)that really
                      work very well.
                      And we also practice kitesurf since one year and we do have practice it
                      in any conditions.
                      And I can insure you that TRACTIONtm kites can be relaunched from water
                      at 70%. For sure the pilot has to control it perfectly but it's working.

                      We use both systems handles or bar to ride.
                      Handles in 4 lines give a better and faster control.
                      Bar is a lot smoothest.

                      I know that I dont answer to your question, but I fund it very important
                      to tell you that foils CAN relaunch from water.

                      Have very nice breeze

                      michel

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                    • Martin Rothwell
                      ... No. I change line length depending on the wind strength. Why is it nearly impossible to go upwind with short lines? I thought that shorter lines would
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                        =?Windows-1252?B?UmFwaGHrbA==?= wrote:

                        > De : Raphaël Salles
                        > A : Martin Rothwell
                        >
                        > Are you always sailing with so short lines ?

                        No. I change line length depending on the wind strength. Why is it nearly
                        impossible to go upwind with short lines? I thought that shorter lines would
                        create less drag/resistance????

                        >From what you say it sounds like I need more lines. I will be trying this soon.

                        Many thanks

                        Martin





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                      • Martin Rothwell
                        Thanks for your help everyone. I have a clearer idea now and look forward to trying all your suggestions out this coming weekend. English weather permitting
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                          Thanks for your help everyone. I have a clearer idea now and look forward to
                          trying all your suggestions out this coming weekend. English weather
                          permitting that is!!!!

                          Martin.

                          srosso@... wrote:

                          > JIBE :
                          > Same problem with 15 m lines its really difficult to jibe .
                          > Use 40 m .
                          > 1 Place the kite half way , between the water and the top .
                          > 2 Take you back foot out from back footstrap .
                          >
                          > AHA ! I forgot to tell you this martin - you have to take your back foor
                          > out of the strap before you start your jibe - you mentioned you kept your
                          > feet in the straps throughout the whole turn ! I imagine you have a hard
                          > time getting your feet out once you are twisted !
                          >
                          > sorry - this is something we windsurfers take for granted because you need
                          > the extra pressure on the inside rail !
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/kitesurf
                          > Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com





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                        • alex gillan
                          G day Steve I ve got a WIPIKA 8.5 m and have had no trouble relaunching from water except once when the kite landed in a 3 foot shore break which filled the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                            G'day Steve

                            I've got a WIPIKA 8.5 m and have had no trouble relaunching from water
                            except once when the kite landed in a 3 foot shore break which filled the
                            kite with water and sand.

                            100% success at un assisted relaunching away from the shore (which is where
                            it counts)

                            Alex Gillan

                            Australia.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Michel Montmigny <traction@...>
                            To: kitesurf@egroups.com <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                            Date: Wednesday, 13 January 1999 1:03
                            Subject: [ksurf] Re: Help me please!!!


                            >Steve Shapson wrote:
                            >>
                            >> Ram air foils(kites) do work better for upwind, but they don't relaunch
                            >> off the water. Foils are great for snow, grass or hard surfaces.
                            >> However, I would like to hear from people about how easily you can
                            >> relaunch the Wipika. I am considering this sail for water kiteskiing
                            >> and kitesailing.
                            >>
                            >> Steve Shapson
                            >> Force 10 Foils
                            >> www.execpc.com/~force10
                            >>
                            >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >> For the absolute lowest price on
                            >> Software:
                            >> CLICK HERE!
                            >>
                            >> eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/kitesurf
                            >> Free Web-based e-mail groups by www.eGroups.com
                            >
                            >Hello Steeve,
                            >
                            >Here Michel Montminy from CONCEPT AIR TRACTIONtm KITES.
                            >
                            >As you probably know, we do work very hard in developping soft kites for
                            >any purposes that exist.
                            >
                            >Since July 1998 we do have a waterstart kites (no balloon)that really
                            >work very well.
                            >And we also practice kitesurf since one year and we do have practice it
                            >in any conditions.
                            >And I can insure you that TRACTIONtm kites can be relaunched from water
                            >at 70%. For sure the pilot has to control it perfectly but it's working.
                            >
                            >We use both systems handles or bar to ride.
                            >Handles in 4 lines give a better and faster control.
                            >Bar is a lot smoothest.
                            >
                            >I know that I dont answer to your question, but I fund it very important
                            >to tell you that foils CAN relaunch from water.
                            >
                            >Have very nice breeze
                            >
                            >michel
                            >
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                            >


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                          • Eric Steinbroner
                            Raphaël said: However I have a few Wipika, they were the only kite up to now to allow a high ratio of successfull water relaunch. As long as the wind is
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                              Raphaël said:

                              "However I have a few Wipika, they were the only kite up to now to allow a
                              high ratio of successfull water relaunch. As long as the wind is strong
                              enough, theyr are extremely easy. I could almost say a little bit to easy
                              eventually."



                              Actually, the Kiteski kite with the control bar allows for relaunching as
                              well. In my opinion, a system like the Kiteski system is much better than a
                              kite that is always powered up or pops off of the water. Here are my
                              reasons:

                              1) You can launch virtually anywhere. Where I go, about 200 windsurfers
                              and I walk down a concrete ramp and hop in the water. There are literally
                              thirty people all around me (in front, in back, to the sides). I lift the
                              kite out of the water, shake the water off, then let the lines out above my
                              head. I have the kite tuned so that it stays above my head without falling.
                              When I'm ready to go, I put the kite in the power zone and go.

                              2) You can de power whenever you need to by dropping the kite in the water.
                              As it drops in the water, it lays flat on the water, therefore no power.
                              This is especially nice when coming back in. As I head to the launch ramp I
                              look for about 30 Meters of area below me. As the kite hits the water I
                              start to reel in the line. It takes about 2 minutes. No need to go chase a
                              kite along the beach.

                              There are some downsides with the Kiteski kite. The biggest one is that the
                              front spar is carbon and can hurt someone. I believe that the danger is
                              very small, and is smaller than the danger of runaway soft kites with the
                              lines possibly hurting someone. The other downside comes from landing the
                              kite in the surf.... potentially the spars can break. For me this is not an
                              issue.

                              I'd like to see more kites built that can "float" in the water, and
                              relaunched after reeling in.

                              Eric



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                            • alex gillan
                              Hey Good point. I ve knocked a few people off the beach when I come in to powered up ... From: Eric Steinbroner To:
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                                Hey Good point.



                                I've knocked a few people off the beach when I come in to powered up



                                ...Alex


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Eric Steinbroner <Eric.Steinbroner@...>
                                To: 'kitesurf@egroups.com' <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                                Date: Wednesday, 13 January 1999 10:07
                                Subject: [ksurf] Re: Help me please!!!


                                Raphaël said:

                                "However I have a few Wipika, they were the only kite up to now to allow a
                                high ratio of successfull water relaunch. As long as the wind is strong
                                enough, theyr are extremely easy. I could almost say a little bit to easy
                                eventually."



                                Actually, the Kiteski kite with the control bar allows for relaunching as
                                well. In my opinion, a system like the Kiteski system is much better than a
                                kite that is always powered up or pops off of the water. Here are my
                                reasons:

                                1) You can launch virtually anywhere. Where I go, about 200 windsurfers
                                and I walk down a concrete ramp and hop in the water. There are literally
                                thirty people all around me (in front, in back, to the sides). I lift the
                                kite out of the water, shake the water off, then let the lines out above my
                                head. I have the kite tuned so that it stays above my head without falling.
                                When I'm ready to go, I put the kite in the power zone and go.

                                2) You can de power whenever you need to by dropping the kite in the water.
                                As it drops in the water, it lays flat on the water, therefore no power.
                                This is especially nice when coming back in. As I head to the launch ramp I
                                look for about 30 Meters of area below me. As the kite hits the water I
                                start to reel in the line. It takes about 2 minutes. No need to go chase a
                                kite along the beach.

                                There are some downsides with the Kiteski kite. The biggest one is that the
                                front spar is carbon and can hurt someone. I believe that the danger is
                                very small, and is smaller than the danger of runaway soft kites with the
                                lines possibly hurting someone. The other downside comes from landing the
                                kite in the surf.... potentially the spars can break. For me this is not an
                                issue.

                                I'd like to see more kites built that can "float" in the water, and
                                relaunched after reeling in.

                                Eric



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                              • Debra Smith and Paul Watson
                                Eric Steinbroner wrote, ... Perhaps this is not a bad point. Although (so far) unapproachable as an automatic re-launch kite, the Wipika is not infallible. I
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                                  Eric Steinbroner wrote,
                                  >I'd like to see more kites built that can "float" in the water, and
                                  >relaunched after reeling in.



                                  Perhaps this is not a bad point. Although (so far) unapproachable as an
                                  'automatic' re-launch kite, the Wipika is not infallible. I have seen
                                  Wipikas flown by experienced kite flyers (and ksurfers) crash and drown in
                                  surf (not able to be presented to the wind for re-launch) - even in
                                  sufficiently strong wind. I had tended to think of reel-in relaunch systems
                                  as something of a clumsy anacronism untill this point (Perhaps this is
                                  because I have not been fortunate enough to have tried a system such as the
                                  Kiteski one!). However, I presently think that they will find their place in
                                  the race to make ksurfing systems more userfriendly, consistent and
                                  practicable.
                                  The further development of the sport of ksurf will depend upon designing
                                  even more consistency into our kite systems. I'm am inclined to think that a
                                  sport cannot evolve around a single product (i.e. the Wipika). No matter how
                                  good the product is (and the Wipika is superb - let there be no mistake
                                  about this point!!), its limitations in crucial areas will not satisfy the
                                  kitesurfing imagination.
                                  Speaking of the kitesurfing imagination, has anyone heard of any
                                  successful attempts to make a quadline reel-in system ( I can imagine many
                                  of the problems with such a proposed system)? I have seen pictures of what
                                  seem to be winders on individual quad handles - made by the irrepressible
                                  Peter Lynn (Did they work? What were the problems involved? - I wonder...).
                                  Could a reel in system be made to work with a Smartbar set-up? I'd love to
                                  see a practical cure (apart from pilot skill - which is fallible!) for the
                                  dreaded 'flat landing' which affects the otherwise cheap, extremely
                                  efficient (beats parafoils by a considersble margin!!!), and powerful hybrid
                                  style of kite - i.e. the Peter Lynn C-Quad.

                                  Smooth winds to all,
                                  Paul Watson



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                                • Paul Sexstone
                                  the cquads are now waterlaunchable, without reeling in, very sucessfully too. ... eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/kitesurf Free Web-based e-mail
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 12, 1999
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                                    the cquads are now waterlaunchable, without reeling in, very sucessfully
                                    too.



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                                  • srosso@bunge.com.br
                                    has anyone heard of any successful attempts to make a quadline reel-in system ( I can imagine many of the problems with such a proposed system)? I have seen
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 13, 1999
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                                      has anyone heard of any
                                      successful attempts to make a quadline reel-in system ( I can imagine many
                                      of the problems with such a proposed system)? I have seen pictures of what
                                      seem to be winders on individual quad handles - made by the irrepressible
                                      Peter Lynn (Did they work? What were the problems involved? - I wonder...).

                                      === Peter told me he made them, they worked well but they are expensive and
                                      a hassle to use so they preferred not to go into production - I imagine
                                      that this could change if they figures out a better system


                                      Could a reel in system be made to work with a Smartbar set-up?

                                      ==== THAT !! is what i would like !



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                                    • Raphaël
                                      I never tried Cory s system, so I cannot comment on it as well. I have however to agree that the reeling bar is extremely advantageous for all kites as you
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 13, 1999
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                                        I never tried Cory's system, so I cannot comment on it as well. I have
                                        however to agree that the reeling bar is extremely advantageous for all
                                        kites as you mentioned, it allows you to start even in crowded zone (with
                                        people or trees).

                                        As for the rest, I agree that it will be a lot harder to control the Wipika
                                        than Cory's delta on landing as it does not depower as well.

                                        F-One, in this optic developed its own kites that are almost flat foils and
                                        do allow a better control.

                                        Raphael Baruch
                                        www.Kitesurf.com

                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Eric Steinbroner [mailto:Eric.Steinbroner@...]
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:16 PM
                                        > To: 'kitesurf@egroups.com'
                                        > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Help me please!!!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Raphaël said:
                                        >
                                        > "However I have a few Wipika, they were the only kite up to now to allow a
                                        > high ratio of successfull water relaunch. As long as the wind is strong
                                        > enough, theyr are extremely easy. I could almost say a little bit to easy
                                        > eventually."
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Actually, the Kiteski kite with the control bar allows for relaunching as
                                        > well. In my opinion, a system like the Kiteski system is much
                                        > better than a
                                        > kite that is always powered up or pops off of the water. Here are my
                                        > reasons:
                                        >
                                        > 1) You can launch virtually anywhere. Where I go, about 200 windsurfers
                                        > and I walk down a concrete ramp and hop in the water. There are literally
                                        > thirty people all around me (in front, in back, to the sides). I lift the
                                        > kite out of the water, shake the water off, then let the lines
                                        > out above my
                                        > head. I have the kite tuned so that it stays above my head
                                        > without falling.
                                        > When I'm ready to go, I put the kite in the power zone and go.
                                        >
                                        > 2) You can de power whenever you need to by dropping the kite in
                                        > the water.
                                        > As it drops in the water, it lays flat on the water, therefore no power.
                                        > This is especially nice when coming back in. As I head to the
                                        > launch ramp I
                                        > look for about 30 Meters of area below me. As the kite hits the water I
                                        > start to reel in the line. It takes about 2 minutes. No need to
                                        > go chase a
                                        > kite along the beach.
                                        >
                                        > There are some downsides with the Kiteski kite. The biggest one
                                        > is that the
                                        > front spar is carbon and can hurt someone. I believe that the danger is
                                        > very small, and is smaller than the danger of runaway soft kites with the
                                        > lines possibly hurting someone. The other downside comes from landing the
                                        > kite in the surf.... potentially the spars can break. For me
                                        > this is not an
                                        > issue.
                                        >
                                        > I'd like to see more kites built that can "float" in the water, and
                                        > relaunched after reeling in.
                                        >
                                        > Eric
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        > HarmonyHouse.com gives you 20% off all CDs all the time!
                                        > HarmonyHouse.com has over 150,000 titles available right now!
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                                      • Raphaël
                                        I forgot to mentionned the interesting characteristics of the F-One (http://www.kitesurf.com/F-One/TheWings/thewings.htm) kite: They do not have any spars, it
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 13, 1999
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I forgot to mentionned the interesting characteristics of the F-One
                                          (http://www.kitesurf.com/F-One/TheWings/thewings.htm) kite:

                                          They do not have any spars, it is a soft foil.

                                          They do float (filled with air) in their flying configuration for about 5
                                          minutes before deflating.

                                          They do waterstart

                                          They can easilly depower and get used with a reeling bar that should be
                                          available soon.

                                          Raphael Baruch
                                          www.KiteSurf.com


                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: alex gillan [mailto:alex.gillan@...]
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:38 PM
                                          > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                                          > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Help me please!!!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hey Good point.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I've knocked a few people off the beach when I come in to powered up
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ...Alex
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: Eric Steinbroner <Eric.Steinbroner@...>
                                          > To: 'kitesurf@egroups.com' <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                                          > Date: Wednesday, 13 January 1999 10:07
                                          > Subject: [ksurf] Re: Help me please!!!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Raphaël said:
                                          >
                                          > "However I have a few Wipika, they were the only kite up to now to allow a
                                          > high ratio of successfull water relaunch. As long as the wind is strong
                                          > enough, theyr are extremely easy. I could almost say a little bit to easy
                                          > eventually."
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Actually, the Kiteski kite with the control bar allows for relaunching as
                                          > well. In my opinion, a system like the Kiteski system is much
                                          > better than a
                                          > kite that is always powered up or pops off of the water. Here are my
                                          > reasons:
                                          >
                                          > 1) You can launch virtually anywhere. Where I go, about 200 windsurfers
                                          > and I walk down a concrete ramp and hop in the water. There are literally
                                          > thirty people all around me (in front, in back, to the sides). I lift the
                                          > kite out of the water, shake the water off, then let the lines
                                          > out above my
                                          > head. I have the kite tuned so that it stays above my head
                                          > without falling.
                                          > When I'm ready to go, I put the kite in the power zone and go.
                                          >
                                          > 2) You can de power whenever you need to by dropping the kite in
                                          > the water.
                                          > As it drops in the water, it lays flat on the water, therefore no power.
                                          > This is especially nice when coming back in. As I head to the
                                          > launch ramp I
                                          > look for about 30 Meters of area below me. As the kite hits the water I
                                          > start to reel in the line. It takes about 2 minutes. No need to
                                          > go chase a
                                          > kite along the beach.
                                          >
                                          > There are some downsides with the Kiteski kite. The biggest one
                                          > is that the
                                          > front spar is carbon and can hurt someone. I believe that the danger is
                                          > very small, and is smaller than the danger of runaway soft kites with the
                                          > lines possibly hurting someone. The other downside comes from landing the
                                          > kite in the surf.... potentially the spars can break. For me
                                          > this is not an
                                          > issue.
                                          >
                                          > I'd like to see more kites built that can "float" in the water, and
                                          > relaunched after reeling in.
                                          >
                                          > Eric
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          > HarmonyHouse.com gives you 20% off all CDs all the time!
                                          > HarmonyHouse.com has over 150,000 titles available right now!
                                          > So what are you waiting for? Check out
                                          > http://offers.egroups.com/click/175/0
                                          > Music is all we do.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/kitesurf
                                          > Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


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                                        • Steve Shapson
                                          Alex wrote: I ve knocked a few people off the beach when I come in to powered up Realllllllllllllllly Alex. Well, I suppose since you re so dangerous and can t
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 13, 1999
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                                            Alex wrote: I've knocked a few people off the beach when I come in to
                                            powered up


                                            Realllllllllllllllly Alex. Well, I suppose since you're so dangerous and
                                            can't control your equipment or you sport, kitesurfing may soon be
                                            banned at more beaches.

                                            We've seen this happen on beaches where people kite buggy, so all you
                                            kitesurfers out there should get it together and realize that if people
                                            get hurt due to someone's inability to watch out for civilians, don't be
                                            mad when the sport doesn't grow.

                                            IT"S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO WATCH OUT FOR ALL CIVILIANS.

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                                          • Cory Roeseler
                                            Paul, I ve been flying my modified Kiteski control bar as a 4 liner, this winter, but I don t see the big advantage for 4 line kites for the water application.
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 13, 1999
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Paul,

                                              I've been flying my modified Kiteski control bar as a 4 liner, this winter,
                                              but I don't see the big advantage for 4 line kites for the water
                                              application. It seems any benefit from improved maneuverability or trimming
                                              is negated by the complexity and added drag of the extra lines.

                                              Cory

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Debra Smith and Paul Watson <algen@...>
                                              To: kitesurf@egroups.com <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                                              Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:42 PM
                                              Subject: [ksurf] Re: Help me please!!!


                                              >Eric Steinbroner wrote,
                                              >>I'd like to see more kites built that can "float" in the water, and
                                              >>relaunched after reeling in.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >Perhaps this is not a bad point. Although (so far) unapproachable as an
                                              >'automatic' re-launch kite, the Wipika is not infallible. I have seen
                                              >Wipikas flown by experienced kite flyers (and ksurfers) crash and drown in
                                              >surf (not able to be presented to the wind for re-launch) - even in
                                              >sufficiently strong wind. I had tended to think of reel-in relaunch
                                              systems
                                              >as something of a clumsy anacronism untill this point (Perhaps this is
                                              >because I have not been fortunate enough to have tried a system such as the
                                              >Kiteski one!). However, I presently think that they will find their place
                                              in
                                              >the race to make ksurfing systems more userfriendly, consistent and
                                              >practicable.
                                              > The further development of the sport of ksurf will depend upon
                                              designing
                                              >even more consistency into our kite systems. I'm am inclined to think that
                                              a
                                              >sport cannot evolve around a single product (i.e. the Wipika). No matter
                                              how
                                              >good the product is (and the Wipika is superb - let there be no mistake
                                              >about this point!!), its limitations in crucial areas will not satisfy the
                                              >kitesurfing imagination.
                                              > Speaking of the kitesurfing imagination, has anyone heard of any
                                              >successful attempts to make a quadline reel-in system ( I can imagine many
                                              >of the problems with such a proposed system)? I have seen pictures of what
                                              >seem to be winders on individual quad handles - made by the irrepressible
                                              >Peter Lynn (Did they work? What were the problems involved? - I wonder...).
                                              >Could a reel in system be made to work with a Smartbar set-up? I'd love to
                                              >see a practical cure (apart from pilot skill - which is fallible!) for the
                                              >dreaded 'flat landing' which affects the otherwise cheap, extremely
                                              >efficient (beats parafoils by a considersble margin!!!), and powerful
                                              hybrid
                                              >style of kite - i.e. the Peter Lynn C-Quad.
                                              >
                                              >Smooth winds to all,
                                              >Paul Watson
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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                                            • Debra Smith and Paul Watson
                                              Cory, Thank you for the feed back on your efforts with reel-in quad lines. I have a few questions regarding your experiment: 1. How did you modify your Kiteski
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jan 13, 1999
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                                                Cory,

                                                Thank you for the feed back on your efforts with reel-in quad lines. I have
                                                a few questions regarding your experiment:
                                                1. How did you modify your Kiteski bar? Were you using a minimally modified
                                                straight bar? If so, where did you place the exit points for the respective
                                                lines? (e.g. Did you have the brakes outboard of the main lines?)
                                                3.You mentioned trimming capability. Did your set-up allow any pitch
                                                control. I am imagining that your straight Kiteski bar (if you used it
                                                without major modification) would not allow overall pitch variation (in any
                                                manner that I can imagine!)
                                                2. Did you have any/much trouble with differential wind-in? The brake lines
                                                would be particularly sensitive to this problem, I imagine.

                                                The reason for my interest in reel-in quadlines is that I think that this
                                                system can potentially offer benefits for some kinds of kite which can
                                                dramatically improve their relaunch capability. It sounds like your kite is
                                                well optimised for dual line flight (simplicity is always a virtue, I
                                                agree!) and the addition of brake lines would have all of the benefits of a
                                                third wheel (I am a motorcyclist!). The sort of kite that such a system
                                                would improve is the hybrid style of kite (such as the C-Quad) invented by
                                                Peter Lynn and optimised for quad flight. The "Smartbar" that Lynn offers
                                                allows the significant separation of pitch from roll/yaw bar movement (it is
                                                not a straight bar). This allows reverse relaunching, inflight "depowering"
                                                and useful pitch control (not to mention rapid turning). To my mind, the
                                                addition of a practical winch system to such a bar would complete the
                                                picture for this kind of kite.

                                                Smooth Winds,

                                                Paul Watson


                                                Cory's Original Message:

                                                >Paul,
                                                >
                                                >I've been flying my modified Kiteski control bar as a 4 liner, this winter,
                                                >but I don't see the big advantage for 4 line kites for the water
                                                >application. It seems any benefit from improved maneuverability or
                                                trimming
                                                >is negated by the complexity and added drag of the extra lines.
                                                >
                                                >Cory



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