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[ksurf] kite line

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  • jimmy_c@worldspy.net
    I m trying to figure out what type of bulk line to buy. Anybody have a good recommendation? What type of line is the standard Naish line - braided nylon? And
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 25 8:28 AM
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      I'm trying to figure out what type of bulk line to buy. Anybody have a
      good recommendation? What type of line is the standard Naish line -
      braided nylon? And what rating - pound test - do I need for flying a 2
      line kite?

      Here's the site I'm loking to buy from: http://www.gwtw-kites.com/lines
      .html
      Thanks for your recommendations.


      -Jim
    • Mark Frasier
      For bulk line (i.e. to make your own linesets) try Hang em High Fabrics. They ve got the cheapest prices I ve seen. You can get 450lb spectra for 10 cents a
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 25 9:30 AM
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        For bulk line (i.e. to make your own linesets) try Hang 'em High Fabrics.
        They've got the cheapest prices I've seen. You can get 450lb spectra for 10
        cents a foot, which works out to $25 for a 125 foot lineset. You can get as
        much or as little as you want at that price (i.e. no need to buy 1000 ft
        spool).

        They also sell a better grade spectra (Berry Blue ES55 Spectra 2000) for 9
        cents a foot but the heaviest they make is 300lb. That's what I use for
        kitesurfing, but I think most people like to use 500lb.

        The URL is http://citystar.com/hang-em-high/

        Mark Frasier

        on 2/25/00 11:28 AM, jimmy_c@... at jimmy_c@... wrote:

        > I'm trying to figure out what type of bulk line to buy. Anybody have a
        > good recommendation? What type of line is the standard Naish line -
        > braided nylon? And what rating - pound test - do I need for flying a 2
        > line kite?
        >
        > Here's the site I'm loking to buy from: http://www.gwtw-kites.com/lines
        > ..html
        > Thanks for your recommendations.
        >
        >
        > -Jim
      • KiteBoard@aol.com
        In a message dated 00-02-25 11:29:14 EST, jimmy_c@worldspy.net writes:
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 25 9:33 AM
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          In a message dated 00-02-25 11:29:14 EST, jimmy_c@... writes:

          << I'm trying to figure out what type of bulk line to buy. Anybody have a
          good recommendation? What type of line is the standard Naish line -
          braided nylon? And what rating - pound test - do I need for flying a 2
          line kite?

          Here's the site I'm loking to buy from: http://www.gwtw-kites.com/lines
          .html >>

          For kiteboarding on water, you'll want 500 pound test Spectra (like the
          standard Naish line). Keep in mind that even the best knots (figure 8)
          reduce line strength by at least 30% (even with dacron sleeving) & your body
          weight is not the maximum tension you can apply to the lines while riding,
          it's how much you can leg press (probably close to 500 pounds). Picture the
          kite nearly skimming the water, while you're hooked into your harness,
          leaning back, & railing the board. The lines can nearly touch the opposite
          rail of the board, making the line pull nearly parallel to your legs (LOTS of
          "leg press" force).

          Mel
        • Magaji Edwards
          HEY JIM, IF YOU CAN FIND IT SPECTRA 2000 IS GREAT LINE I HAVE BEEN USING IT ON BUGGIES FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS. QUADFOIL MIGHT BE ABLE TO DIRECT YOU WHERE TO GET
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 25 12:55 PM
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            HEY JIM, IF YOU CAN FIND IT SPECTRA 2000 IS GREAT LINE I HAVE BEEN USING IT
            ON BUGGIES FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS. QUADFOIL MIGHT BE ABLE TO DIRECT YOU WHERE
            TO GET IT IN BULK. THE LINE IS ROUND AND HAS ALMOST NO STRETCH, AND ITS
            WEIGHT TO STRENGTH RATION IS THE HIGHEST I'VE SEEN. HOPE THAT HELPS.
            --
            ---
            Magaji Edwards <magaji@...>


            ----------
            >From: jimmy_c@...
            >To: kitesurf@...
            >Subject: [ksurf] kite line
            >Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000, 9:28 AM
            >

            > I'm trying to figure out what type of bulk line to buy. Anybody have a
            > good recommendation? What type of line is the standard Naish line -
            > braided nylon? And what rating - pound test - do I need for flying a 2
            > line kite?
            >
            > Here's the site I'm loking to buy from: http://www.gwtw-kites.com/lines
            > .html
            > Thanks for your recommendations.
            >
            >
            > -Jim
            >
            >
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          • Dave Raue
            I ve used the bargain Hang em High line, and a bargain it is. BUT: the weave isn t very tight, and it opens up when twisted (like winding lines onto
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 25 3:43 PM
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              I've used the bargain Hang 'em High line, and a bargain it is. BUT: the
              weave isn't very tight, and it opens up when twisted (like winding lines
              onto handles). It's therefore prone to trapping sand and it doen't unwind
              as "clean" as the high-grade stuff. The Laserpro specra also seems to be
              coated with wax or something which keeps it more closed up. But for the
              price it can't be beat.

              Dave
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mark Frasier" <brockus@...>
              To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 12:30 PM
              Subject: [ksurf] Re: kite line


              > For bulk line (i.e. to make your own linesets) try Hang 'em High Fabrics.
              > They've got the cheapest prices I've seen. You can get 450lb spectra for
              10
              > cents a foot, which works out to $25 for a 125 foot lineset. You can get
              as
              > much or as little as you want at that price (i.e. no need to buy 1000 ft
              > spool).
              >
              > They also sell a better grade spectra (Berry Blue ES55 Spectra 2000) for 9
              > cents a foot but the heaviest they make is 300lb. That's what I use for
              > kitesurfing, but I think most people like to use 500lb.
              >
              > The URL is http://citystar.com/hang-em-high/
              >
              > Mark Frasier
              >
              > on 2/25/00 11:28 AM, jimmy_c@... at jimmy_c@... wrote:
              >
              > > I'm trying to figure out what type of bulk line to buy. Anybody have a
              > > good recommendation? What type of line is the standard Naish line -
              > > braided nylon? And what rating - pound test - do I need for flying a 2
              > > line kite?
              > >
              > > Here's the site I'm loking to buy from: http://www.gwtw-kites.com/lines
              > > ..html
              > > Thanks for your recommendations.
              > >
              > >
              > > -Jim
              >
              >
              >
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            • Mike Robyn & Max
              Naish Line ....oh gawd...now he is the king of line.... ... From: jimmy_c@worldspy.net To: kitesurf@eGroups.com
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 25 3:49 PM
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                "Naish Line"....oh gawd...now he is the king of line....
                -----Original Message-----
                From: jimmy_c@... <jimmy_c@...>
                To: kitesurf@... <kitesurf@...>
                Date: Friday, February 25, 2000 8:28 AM
                Subject: [ksurf] kite line


                >I'm trying to figure out what type of bulk line to buy. Anybody have a
                >good recommendation? What type of line is the standard Naish line -
                >braided nylon? And what rating - pound test - do I need for flying a 2
                >line kite?
                >
                >Here's the site I'm loking to buy from: http://www.gwtw-kites.com/lines
                >.html
                >Thanks for your recommendations.
                >
                >
                >-Jim
                >
                >
                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >To unsubscribe, send a message to kitesurf-unsubscribe@...
                >
                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >Get a FREE $10 gas card when you join carclub.com. As a member,
                >you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and thousands
                >more when you're buying one.
                >http://click.egroups.com/1/1943/2/_/19/_/951496101/
                >
                >eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/
                >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                >
                >
              • Steve Bateman
                A couple of things. 1) Spectra 2000 is the name of the fibers that make up the line, not the line it self. Spectra 2000 fibers are smaller and lighter for the
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 27 5:00 PM
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                  A couple of things.

                  1) Spectra 2000 is the name of the fibers that make up the line,
                  not the line it self. Spectra 2000 fibers are smaller and lighter
                  for the same strength compared to Spectra 1000.

                  2) Any line, powerline or regular flying line, sleeving
                  or not, will be weakened by knots. It's just physics. The
                  only way to create a loop without weakening the line a large
                  amount is by splicing (and possible by sewing, I haven't seen
                  any data on sewing).


                  sara wrote:
                  >
                  > You can get a 1000foot spool of 300# Quadrifoil Powerline for about
                  > $180 from GWTW-kites. Powerline is by far the best water traction kite
                  > line availible right now. It does not need sleeving or sewing to get a
                  > nearly 100% strength knot.

                  Magaji Edwards wrote:
                  >
                  > HEY JIM, IF YOU CAN FIND IT SPECTRA 2000 IS GREAT LINE I HAVE BEEN USING IT
                  > ON BUGGIES FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS. QUADFOIL MIGHT BE ABLE TO DIRECT YOU WHERE
                  > TO GET IT IN BULK. THE LINE IS ROUND AND HAS ALMOST NO STRETCH, AND ITS
                  > WEIGHT TO STRENGTH RATION IS THE HIGHEST I'VE SEEN. HOPE THAT HELPS.

                  --
                  Steve Bateman geokite at sprintmail dot com
                • AhClem0013@aol.com
                  In a message dated 2/27/2000 7:57:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Sorry Steve, i disagree. Haven t used it, don t use it and will not sleeve my lines. I
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 28 7:36 AM
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                    In a message dated 2/27/2000 7:57:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    geokite@... writes:

                    > 2) Any line, powerline or regular flying line, sleeving
                    > or not, will be weakened by knots. It's just physics. The
                    > only way to create a loop without weakening the line a large
                    > amount is by splicing (and possible by sewing, I haven't seen
                    > any data on sewing).


                    Sorry Steve, i disagree. Haven't used it, don't use it and will not sleeve
                    my lines. I use extra light line(power line) for all power applications and
                    the line has never, never broken at the knot!

                    Of course i've only been doing this for about thirteen years, so i could
                    always use some new information.

                    Sleeving is for folks who need something to do.

                    aoxo
                  • Rainer Leuschke
                    ... You ve managed to break lines with knots in them somewhere in the middle? ... Here s some new info for ya: I ve only been doing this for 6 months. I had
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 28 8:08 AM
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                      On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 AhClem0013@... wrote:

                      > Sorry Steve, i disagree. Haven't used it, don't use it and will not sleeve
                      > my lines. I use extra light line(power line) for all power applications and
                      > the line has never, never broken at the knot!

                      You've managed to break lines with knots in them somewhere in the middle?

                      > Of course i've only been doing this for about thirteen years, so i could
                      > always use some new information.

                      Here's some new info for ya: I've only been doing this for 6 months. I had
                      kevlar line snap three times in a row right at the knot. Then I sewed a
                      loop. No problems since.

                      > Sleeving is for folks who need something to do.

                      Takes all of 5 min to sleeve a set.....I got that much time.
                      Ciao,
                      R!

                      -- ,--+___. oOOOOOOo
                      ,/ | \ / /
                      ___ / | \. Rainer Leuschke / /
                      __ / | \. phone: (w) 206-685-0900 / /
                      __ / 14 |\ \ (h) 206-547-8927 / /
                      | ~~ | \ \ / /
                      | | \ \ / /
                      | | \ \ Weight is only of use / /
                      | | \ | in steamrollers. o /
                      +--o o--| \ | - Uffa Fox 'U~
                      .|_[]{ }_|------+======' )\
                      M|_______________| -;---'
                      U H
                      U
                    • Mark Frasier
                      ... He was talking about splicing, not sleeving. ... Does anyone remember the posting about a test someone did comparing knotted line breaking strength to
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 28 8:31 AM
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                        on 2/28/00 10:36 AM, AhClem0013@... at AhClem0013@... wrote:

                        > In a message dated 2/27/2000 7:57:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                        > geokite@... writes:
                        >
                        >> 2) Any line, powerline or regular flying line, sleeving
                        >> or not, will be weakened by knots. It's just physics. The
                        >> only way to create a loop without weakening the line a large
                        >> amount is by splicing (and possible by sewing, I haven't seen
                        >> any data on sewing).
                        >
                        >
                        > Sorry Steve, i disagree. Haven't used it, don't use it and will not sleeve
                        > my lines. I use extra light line(power line) for all power applications and
                        > the line has never, never broken at the knot!

                        He was talking about splicing, not sleeving.

                        > Of course i've only been doing this for about thirteen years, so i could
                        > always use some new information.

                        Does anyone remember the posting about a test someone did comparing knotted
                        line breaking strength to spliced strength? I looked for it with the search
                        tool at egroups but that was an exercise in futility. Too bad there's not a
                        better way to find old messages that you don't remember the date of.

                        > Sleeving is for folks who need something to do.

                        I'm not a fan of sleeves either but they do have their advantages. Using
                        different color sleeves makes it easier to switch linesets from kite to kite
                        and a sleeved line is easier to untie and adjust for length.

                        I've never had a power line break, but on lighter lines I always seem to
                        break a few feet from a knot.

                        The worst thing about sleeved lines is that they're more tangly.

                        I'm making a couple of new sets and I'm trying splicing this time. Seems
                        like the best of all worlds. No tangly lumps or dangling ends, easy
                        adjustability, high strength and not very difficult or time consuming to do.
                        I just have doubts about slippage. Has anyone tried splicing and regretted
                        it?

                        Mark Frasier
                      • Dave Raue
                        ahclem001-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=10702 ... not sleeve ... applications and ... However, that does NOT
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 28 9:10 AM
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                          ahclem001-@... wrote:
                          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=10702
                          > In a message dated 2/27/2000 7:57:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                          > geokite@... writes:
                          >
                          > > 2) Any line, powerline or regular flying line, sleeving
                          > > or not, will be weakened by knots. It's just physics. The
                          > > only way to create a loop without weakening the line a large
                          > > amount is by splicing (and possible by sewing, I haven't seen
                          > > any data on sewing).
                          >
                          >
                          > Sorry Steve, i disagree. Haven't used it, don't use it and will
                          not sleeve
                          > my lines. I use extra light line(power line) for all power
                          applications and
                          > the line has never, never broken at the knot!

                          However, that does NOT mean that the knot doesn't compromise strength.
                          It just means that the knot was the weak link where YOUR lines have
                          broken.

                          > Of course i've only been doing this for about thirteen years, so i
                          could
                          > always use some new information.

                          Presumably in this time you have broken lines, right? Since you can't
                          go back in time to determine the strength of the line at the point of
                          breaking before it broke, the best you can conclude is that the
                          strength of them line was lower at the point of breakage than at the
                          knot. Has your 13 years taught you that there's anything detrimental
                          about sleeving lines? If so, please share.

                          > Sleeving is for folks who need something to do.

                          That may well be! I enjoy sleeving, soothes my spirit when the
                          weather's bad...
                        • Art Clark
                          Mark Frasier wrote: clip.. ... clip.. I made some test loops using the method at http://www.medienkonzepte.de/KITE with 200 lb Spectra and was able to hang my
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 28 10:32 AM
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                            Mark Frasier wrote:
                            clip..
                            >
                            > The worst thing about sleeved lines is that they're more tangly.
                            >
                            > I'm making a couple of new sets and I'm trying splicing this time. Seems
                            > like the best of all worlds. No tangly lumps or dangling ends, easy
                            > adjustability, high strength and not very difficult or time consuming to do.
                            > I just have doubts about slippage. Has anyone tried splicing and regretted
                            > it?
                            clip..

                            I made some test loops using the method at
                            http://www.medienkonzepte.de/KITE with 200 lb Spectra and was able to
                            hang my weight (150 lb) with the loops larks-headed onto a larger rope.
                            Yes, I applied my weight slowly and no jerks, but it held.
                            On the down side, I had to use a piece of wire for a tool (didn't have a
                            sleeving needle) and it was pretty tedious.

                            Art
                          • KiteBoard@aol.com
                            In a message dated 00-02-28 13:36:43 EST, clarkaw@syix.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 28 10:44 AM
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                              In a message dated 00-02-28 13:36:43 EST, clarkaw@... writes:

                              << I made some test loops using the method at
                              http://www.medienkonzepte.de/KITE with 200 lb Spectra and was able to
                              hang my weight (150 lb) with the loops larks-headed onto a larger rope.
                              Yes, I applied my weight slowly and no jerks, but it held. >>

                              As I posted earlier, there's MUCH more than just your weight + the board on
                              the lines. Picture flying the kite low over the water (nearly touching),
                              fully powered up & leaning back (butt &/or shoulders nearly touching the
                              water). The kite lines are just above the board's rail, & are pulling nearly
                              parallel to your legs. Now the limit of force on the lines is either board
                              lateral lift (just before spinout), or your own personal maximum leg load
                              (around 500 pounds), whichever is less.

                              Mel
                            • Art Clark
                              If I weighed 400 lbs, I would have tried my tests on 500 lb line. Since I weigh ~150, 200 lb was the line of choice for testing. The purpose wasn t to use the
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 28 11:30 AM
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                                If I weighed 400 lbs, I would have tried my tests on 500 lb line. Since
                                I weigh ~150, 200 lb was the line of choice for testing. The purpose
                                wasn't to use the line for kitesurfing, but to test the degradation of
                                the breaking strength by the loop. The same test, tried with a variety
                                of knots and sleeves, failed every time.

                                So here's my conclusion:
                                The knots I tried (with and without sleeveing) reduced the breaking
                                strength to under 75 % of rated.
                                The loop method below retained over 75% of the rated strength.

                                Of course, with just a little bounce, it also failed.

                                I think hooked in you could easily get a 2g load - 300 lbs in my case.
                                Art

                                KiteBoard@... wrote:
                                >
                                > In a message dated 00-02-28 13:36:43 EST, clarkaw@... writes:
                                >
                                > << I made some test loops using the method at
                                > http://www.medienkonzepte.de/KITE with 200 lb Spectra and was able to
                                > hang my weight (150 lb) with the loops larks-headed onto a larger rope.
                                > Yes, I applied my weight slowly and no jerks, but it held. >>
                                >
                                > As I posted earlier, there's MUCH more than just your weight + the board on
                                > the lines. Picture flying the kite low over the water (nearly touching),
                                > fully powered up & leaning back (butt &/or shoulders nearly touching the
                                > water). The kite lines are just above the board's rail, & are pulling nearly
                                > parallel to your legs. Now the limit of force on the lines is either board
                                > lateral lift (just before spinout), or your own personal maximum leg load
                                > (around 500 pounds), whichever is less.
                                >
                                > Mel
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                >
                                > Subject: [ksurf] Re: kite line
                                > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:32:29 -0800
                                > From: Art Clark <clarkaw@...>
                                > Reply-To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                                > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                                > References: <B4E00D27.1D41%brockus@...>
                                >
                                > Mark Frasier wrote:
                                > clip..
                                > >
                                > > The worst thing about sleeved lines is that they're more tangly.
                                > >
                                > > I'm making a couple of new sets and I'm trying splicing this time. Seems
                                > > like the best of all worlds. No tangly lumps or dangling ends, easy
                                > > adjustability, high strength and not very difficult or time consuming to do.
                                > > I just have doubts about slippage. Has anyone tried splicing and regretted
                                > > it?
                                > clip..
                                >
                                > I made some test loops using the method at
                                > http://www.medienkonzepte.de/KITE with 200 lb Spectra and was able to
                                > hang my weight (150 lb) with the loops larks-headed onto a larger rope.
                                > Yes, I applied my weight slowly and no jerks, but it held.
                                > On the down side, I had to use a piece of wire for a tool (didn't have a
                                > sleeving needle) and it was pretty tedious.
                                >
                                > Art
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > The Kitesurf Group is sponsored by F-ONE Equipment
                                >
                                > Conceived and designed by Kitesurfers . . . To ride and fly longer and higher
                                >
                                > Visit http://www.kitesurf.com
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > Get a FREE $10 gas card when you join carclub.com. As a member,
                                > you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and thousands
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                              • Steve Bateman
                                ... Thanks for pointing that out :) ... Deano, methinks that 13 years have given you better flying skills than most, so knowledge of what the lines can handle.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 28 5:56 PM
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                                  Mark Frasier wrote:

                                  > He was talking about splicing, not sleeving.

                                  Thanks for pointing that out :)

                                  > > Of course i've only been doing this for about thirteen years, so i could
                                  > > always use some new information.

                                  Deano, methinks that 13 years have given you better flying skills than
                                  most,
                                  so knowledge of what the lines can handle. And I think you do pay
                                  attention to your knots, making them smooth with few kinks and
                                  additional
                                  twists. That can help also.

                                  > I'm making a couple of new sets and I'm trying splicing this time. Seems
                                  > like the best of all worlds. No tangly lumps or dangling ends, easy
                                  > adjustability, high strength and not very difficult or time consuming to do.
                                  > I just have doubts about slippage. Has anyone tried splicing and regretted
                                  > it?

                                  Just with the method that is described in the vault, the bw pics of
                                  one splicing method. I used to use it, but found it was kinda difficult
                                  and required a special tool. The method I use just uses a large needle
                                  (or sleeving tool can be used). There are pics in the vault (stitch
                                  splice),
                                  but they aren't the best. I thread across the diameter of the line
                                  about
                                  30 times (yes it takes a while) using a dull and polished smooth darning
                                  needle. Play around with it to find the right amount of line to have in
                                  the loop for *easy* fine tunning of your lines. I also put some
                                  sleeving
                                  inside the loop for durability. Not necessary though.

                                  --
                                  Steve Bateman geokite at sprintmail dot com
                                • AhClem0013@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 2/28/2000 12:32:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Nah. As mentioned they do make the line sets a bit more tangly, and certainly lots of fine
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 28 7:15 PM
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                                    In a message dated 2/28/2000 12:32:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                    theraves@... writes:

                                    > Presumably in this time you have broken lines, right? Since you can't
                                    > go back in time to determine the strength of the line at the point of
                                    > breaking before it broke, the best you can conclude is that the
                                    > strength of them line was lower at the point of breakage than at the
                                    > knot. Has your 13 years taught you that there's anything detrimental
                                    > about sleeving lines? If so, please share.


                                    Nah. As mentioned they do make the line sets a bit more tangly, and
                                    certainly lots of fine folks seem to enjoy doing it. For me it seems like
                                    the only times my lines get in trouble is when they are brand new. Then
                                    someone else almost always wangs me with a kite, and cuts them in the middle.
                                    Then i no knot (splice) them.

                                    aoxo
                                  • Dave Raue
                                    Has anybody tried sewing the loops? FWIW I tried it for a whole bunch of lines and it worked great, so far anyway. Sorry Aoxo-man, they were sleeved. But
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 28 8:08 PM
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                                      Has anybody tried sewing the loops? FWIW I tried it for a whole bunch of
                                      lines and it worked great, so far anyway. Sorry Aoxo-man, they were
                                      sleeved. But afterwards I painted them with several coats of that liquid
                                      rope whipping stuff. They never tangle and you can write the length/weight
                                      on the line with a sharpie pen.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: <AhClem0013@...>
                                      To: <kitesurf@egroups.com>
                                      Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 10:15 PM
                                      Subject: [ksurf] Re: kite line


                                      > In a message dated 2/28/2000 12:32:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                      > theraves@... writes:
                                      >
                                      > > Presumably in this time you have broken lines, right? Since you can't
                                      > > go back in time to determine the strength of the line at the point of
                                      > > breaking before it broke, the best you can conclude is that the
                                      > > strength of them line was lower at the point of breakage than at the
                                      > > knot. Has your 13 years taught you that there's anything detrimental
                                      > > about sleeving lines? If so, please share.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Nah. As mentioned they do make the line sets a bit more tangly, and
                                      > certainly lots of fine folks seem to enjoy doing it. For me it seems
                                      like
                                      > the only times my lines get in trouble is when they are brand new. Then
                                      > someone else almost always wangs me with a kite, and cuts them in the
                                      middle.
                                      > Then i no knot (splice) them.
                                      >
                                      > aoxo
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                    • KiteBoard@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 00-02-28 15:00:28 EST, clarkaw@syix.com writes: Thanks for the
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 29 8:04 AM
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                                        In a message dated 00-02-28 15:00:28 EST, clarkaw@... writes:

                                        << I think hooked in you could easily get a 2g load - 300 lbs in my case. >>

                                        Thanks for the clarification on splicing break strength.

                                        I think the pure steady state force is even greater than that due to
                                        accelleration (g). With the kite & your body both skimming the water & the
                                        board railed hard with the lines just above it, it feels like your legs are
                                        about to collapse. At 150 pounds body weight, you can still jump off the
                                        ground using only one leg, while holding a 40 pound weight (total force on
                                        one leg over 200 pounds). That means you can press with both your legs over
                                        400 pounds. That's closer to true line tension. With a two line, & even a
                                        4-line, you can get nearly all of the load on one line while turning.

                                        Mel
                                      • Ronald Kittag
                                        ... Yes, no linebreaks ever since!!
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 29 9:06 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          > Has anybody tried sewing the loops?

                                          Yes, no linebreaks ever since!!
                                        • Art Clark
                                          I like the one leg + 40 lbs jump analogy! Liked it so much I walked back to the storeroom to try it:) Good exercise, too. Art
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 29 10:41 AM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I like the "one leg + 40 lbs" jump analogy! Liked it so much I walked
                                            back to the storeroom to try it:) Good exercise, too.

                                            Art

                                            KiteBoard@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > In a message dated 00-02-28 15:00:28 EST, clarkaw@... writes:
                                            >
                                            > << I think hooked in you could easily get a 2g load - 300 lbs in my case. >>
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for the clarification on splicing break strength.
                                            >
                                            > I think the pure steady state force is even greater than that due to
                                            > accelleration (g). With the kite & your body both skimming the water & the
                                            > board railed hard with the lines just above it, it feels like your legs are
                                            > about to collapse. At 150 pounds body weight, you can still jump off the
                                            > ground using only one leg, while holding a 40 pound weight (total force on
                                            > one leg over 200 pounds). That means you can press with both your legs over
                                            > 400 pounds. That's closer to true line tension. With a two line, & even a
                                            > 4-line, you can get nearly all of the load on one line while turning.
                                            >
                                            > Mel
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            > The Kitesurf Group is sponsored by F-ONE Equipment
                                            >
                                            > Conceived and designed by Kitesurfers . . . To ride and fly longer and higher
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            > Subject: [ksurf] Re: kite line
                                            > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:30:28 -0800
                                            > From: Art Clark <clarkaw@...>
                                            > Reply-To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                                            > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                                            > References: <d0.28cfe55.25ec1bf2@...>
                                            >
                                            > If I weighed 400 lbs, I would have tried my tests on 500 lb line. Since
                                            > I weigh ~150, 200 lb was the line of choice for testing. The purpose
                                            > wasn't to use the line for kitesurfing, but to test the degradation of
                                            > the breaking strength by the loop. The same test, tried with a variety
                                            > of knots and sleeves, failed every time.
                                            >
                                            > So here's my conclusion:
                                            > The knots I tried (with and without sleeveing) reduced the breaking
                                            > strength to under 75 % of rated.
                                            > The loop method below retained over 75% of the rated strength.
                                            >
                                            > Of course, with just a little bounce, it also failed.
                                            >
                                            > I think hooked in you could easily get a 2g load - 300 lbs in my case.
                                            > Art
                                            >
                                            > KiteBoard@... wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > In a message dated 00-02-28 13:36:43 EST, clarkaw@... writes:
                                            > >
                                            > > << I made some test loops using the method at
                                            > > http://www.medienkonzepte.de/KITE with 200 lb Spectra and was able to
                                            > > hang my weight (150 lb) with the loops larks-headed onto a larger rope.
                                            > > Yes, I applied my weight slowly and no jerks, but it held. >>
                                            > >
                                            > > As I posted earlier, there's MUCH more than just your weight + the board on
                                            > > the lines. Picture flying the kite low over the water (nearly touching),
                                            > > fully powered up & leaning back (butt &/or shoulders nearly touching the
                                            > > water). The kite lines are just above the board's rail, & are pulling nearly
                                            > > parallel to your legs. Now the limit of force on the lines is either board
                                            > > lateral lift (just before spinout), or your own personal maximum leg load
                                            > > (around 500 pounds), whichever is less.
                                            > >
                                            > > Mel
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            > > The Kitesurf Group is sponsored by F-ONE Equipment
                                            > >
                                            > > Conceived and designed by Kitesurfers . . . To ride and fly longer and higher
                                            > >
                                            > > Visit http://www.kitesurf.com
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                                            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            > >
                                            > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: kite line
                                            > > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:32:29 -0800
                                            > > From: Art Clark <clarkaw@...>
                                            > > Reply-To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                                            > > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                                            > > References: <B4E00D27.1D41%brockus@...>
                                            > >
                                            > > Mark Frasier wrote:
                                            > > clip..
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The worst thing about sleeved lines is that they're more tangly.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I'm making a couple of new sets and I'm trying splicing this time. Seems
                                            > > > like the best of all worlds. No tangly lumps or dangling ends, easy
                                            > > > adjustability, high strength and not very difficult or time consuming to do.
                                            > > > I just have doubts about slippage. Has anyone tried splicing and regretted
                                            > > > it?
                                            > > clip..
                                            > >
                                            > > I made some test loops using the method at
                                            > > http://www.medienkonzepte.de/KITE with 200 lb Spectra and was able to
                                            > > hang my weight (150 lb) with the loops larks-headed onto a larger rope.
                                            > > Yes, I applied my weight slowly and no jerks, but it held.
                                            > > On the down side, I had to use a piece of wire for a tool (didn't have a
                                            > > sleeving needle) and it was pretty tedious.
                                            > >
                                            > > Art
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            > > The Kitesurf Group is sponsored by F-ONE Equipment
                                            > >
                                            > > Conceived and designed by Kitesurfers . . . To ride and fly longer and higher
                                            > >
                                            > > Visit http://www.kitesurf.com
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                            > > you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and thousands
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                                          • sara
                                            In my 2 1/2 years of kitesurfing I ve never had a line fail. I have only flown 300# Powerline with tied loops. Call me lucky I guess! But...I ve been drug
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 29 7:28 PM
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                                              In my 2 1/2 years of kitesurfing I've never had a line fail. I have
                                              only flown 300# Powerline with tied loops. Call me lucky I guess!
                                              But...I've been drug underwater, thourgh waves, over sand hills, etc
                                              etc. The way I figure it I can do a huge amount of weight while doing
                                              leg presses but my hands can't hold 300# (or even 200# with the weight
                                              applied in a shock loading manner) without something giving i.e. the
                                              kite gets jerked out of my hands or (it's happened a couple of times)
                                              or my fingers breaking.
                                              I'm experimenting with using 200# main line and 50-80# brake line for
                                              the large light air kites. We'll see.
                                              500# is not going to break and it's safer in a crowded area but the
                                              amount of air drag is larger.
                                              Whatever type line you use have a blast and jam hard while ksurfing!!!


                                              "ronald kittag" <h905040-@...-wien.ac.at> wrote:
                                              original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=10768
                                              > > Has anybody tried sewing the loops?
                                              >
                                              > Yes, no linebreaks ever since!!
                                              >
                                            • Colin Gowland
                                              Umm, hands can t hold , jerked out of my hands ? What about the harness?
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 29 8:30 PM
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                                                Umm, "hands can't hold", "jerked out of my hands"?

                                                What about the harness?




                                                > The way I figure it I can do a huge amount of weight while doing
                                                > leg presses but my hands can't hold 300# (or even 200# with the weight
                                                > applied in a shock loading manner) without something giving i.e. the
                                                > kite gets jerked out of my hands or (it's happened a couple of times)
                                                > or my fingers breaking
                                              • Neil Taylor
                                                but.. hey Sara...... don t they.... like... dissolve ?????!!! ... NT One Life, Live It
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Mar 1, 2000
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                                                  but.. hey Sara...... don't they.... like..."dissolve" ?????!!!

                                                  sara wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > But...I've been drug underwater, thourgh waves, over sand hills, etc


                                                  NT
                                                  "One Life, Live It"
                                                • KiteBoard@aol.com
                                                  In a message dated 00-02-29 13:42:31 EST, you write:
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Mar 1, 2000
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    In a message dated 00-02-29 13:42:31 EST, you write:

                                                    << I like the "one leg + 40 lbs" jump analogy! Liked it so much I walked
                                                    back to the storeroom to try it:) Good exercise, too. >>

                                                    I wanted to be able to claim "over 50 pounds" but I didn't have the required
                                                    measured weights handy.

                                                    It seems the least-weakening knot (figure 8) in 500 pound line, reduces it to
                                                    only 350.

                                                    Mel
                                                  • KiteBoard@aol.com
                                                    In a message dated 00-02-29 22:29:47 EST, sara53@hotmail.com writes:
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Mar 1, 2000
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      In a message dated 00-02-29 22:29:47 EST, sara53@... writes:

                                                      << In my 2 1/2 years of kitesurfing I've never had a line fail. I have
                                                      only flown 300# Powerline with tied loops. Call me lucky I guess!
                                                      But...I've been drug underwater, thourgh waves, over sand hills, etc
                                                      etc. The way I figure it I can do a huge amount of weight while doing
                                                      leg presses but my hands can't hold 300# (or even 200# with the weight
                                                      applied in a shock loading manner) without something giving i.e. the
                                                      kite gets jerked out of my hands or (it's happened a couple of times)
                                                      or my fingers breaking. >>

                                                      Well after windsurfing for over 20 years I guess: A) my hands are pretty
                                                      strong (I once lifted a 180 pound friend off the ground along with me, while
                                                      he was trying to hold me down! - didn't even notice the pull on my hands) &
                                                      B) I tend to be harnessed in most of the time, with less than half the force
                                                      on my hands. I still believe there's WAY more line tension when riding hard,
                                                      than being dragged in any manner. Fins & board rails can provide LOTS of
                                                      side resistance when the kite is low.

                                                      << I'm experimenting with using 200# main line and 50-80# brake line for
                                                      the large light air kites. We'll see. >>

                                                      Keep in mind that if powered up the same (lighter wind, bigger kite) line
                                                      tension will be the same. In other words, it's line tension that gets you on
                                                      a plane, so if you're getting on a plane as easily in light wind (due to a
                                                      larger kite) the line tension is about the same, not less.

                                                      Mel
                                                    • Fritz Gramkowski
                                                      A light person might be able to get away with using 300# power line but I don t use it becuase I don t like to go swimming. I weigh 200# and have broken 300#
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Mar 1, 2000
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        A light person might be able to get away with using 300# power line but
                                                        I don't use it becuase I don't like to go swimming.

                                                        I weigh 200# and have broken 300# Powerline but not at the unsleeved
                                                        knot. Some of the places where I launch are not very friendly and have
                                                        rocks, broken glass and other debris scattered about, so it is possible
                                                        that I knicked my line on something. I have also broken unsleeved
                                                        traditional 500# specrtra at the knot and sleeved traditional spectra
                                                        away from the knot. I'm almost always hooked into my harness when on
                                                        the water and can handle vey large loads. As soon as it was available
                                                        I started using knotted unsleeved 500# Power Line and haven't broken a
                                                        flying line since, however I did manage to break my harness a couple of
                                                        weeks ago.

                                                        One thing you need to keep an eye for no matter what type of line you
                                                        use is wear at all the connection points and lead lines on your rig,
                                                        this is where you are mostly likely to have a failure.

                                                        The slight increase in drag from a heavier line far out weighs the
                                                        higher risk of failure associated with a lighter one. Besides if the
                                                        wind is so light that I'm worrying about line drag I'm not going to be
                                                        on the water.

                                                        Latter-
                                                        Fritz



                                                        "sara" <sara5-@...> wrote:
                                                        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=10782
                                                        > In my 2 1/2 years of kitesurfing I've never had a line fail. I have
                                                        > only flown 300# Powerline with tied loops. Call me lucky I guess!
                                                        > But...I've been drug underwater, thourgh waves, over sand hills, etc
                                                        > etc. The way I figure it I can do a huge amount of weight while doing
                                                        > leg presses but my hands can't hold 300# (or even 200# with the weight
                                                        > applied in a shock loading manner) without something giving i.e. the
                                                        > kite gets jerked out of my hands or (it's happened a couple of times)
                                                        > or my fingers breaking.
                                                        > I'm experimenting with using 200# main line and 50-80# brake line
                                                        for
                                                        > the large light air kites. We'll see.
                                                        > 500# is not going to break and it's safer in a crowded area but the
                                                        > amount of air drag is larger.
                                                        > Whatever type line you use have a blast and jam hard while
                                                        ksurfing!!!
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > "ronald kittag" <h905040-@...-wien.ac.at> wrote:
                                                        > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=10768
                                                        > > > Has anybody tried sewing the loops?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Yes, no linebreaks ever since!!
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                      • Stephen McCormack
                                                        HI Fritz & Sara Sounds like Sara is not using a harness or not hooked in when ksurfing, (The way I figure it I can do a huge amount of weight while doing ...
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Mar 1, 2000
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                                                          HI Fritz & Sara

                                                          Sounds like Sara is not using a harness or not hooked in when ksurfing,
                                                          (The way I figure it I can do a huge amount of weight while doing
                                                          > > leg presses but my hands can't hold 300# (or even 200# with the weight
                                                          > > applied in a shock loading manner) without something giving i.e. the
                                                          > > kite gets jerked out of my hands or (it's happened a couple of times)
                                                          > > or my fingers breaking.)
                                                          So 300lb would be OK, anyone who uses a harness or backstrap should use
                                                          500lb IMO unless they are a strong swimmer.
                                                          We have had some really big guys breaking 500lb, they now use 800lb on their
                                                          2 line Wipika's.
                                                          Use strong lines at least double your body weight spread over your top/power
                                                          lines, no re-launching ability with a broken line, so for me it is a safety
                                                          issue too, cya and
                                                          Goodwinds
                                                          Steve McCormack
                                                          www.kitepoweraustralia.com
                                                          kitepower@...


                                                          > A light person might be able to get away with using 300# power line but
                                                          > I don't use it becuase I don't like to go swimming.
                                                          >
                                                          > I weigh 200# and have broken 300# Powerline but not at the unsleeved
                                                          > knot. Some of the places where I launch are not very friendly and have
                                                          > rocks, broken glass and other debris scattered about, so it is possible
                                                          > that I knicked my line on something. I have also broken unsleeved
                                                          > traditional 500# specrtra at the knot and sleeved traditional spectra
                                                          > away from the knot. I'm almost always hooked into my harness when on
                                                          > the water and can handle vey large loads. As soon as it was available
                                                          > I started using knotted unsleeved 500# Power Line and haven't broken a
                                                          > flying line since, however I did manage to break my harness a couple of
                                                          > weeks ago.
                                                          >
                                                          > One thing you need to keep an eye for no matter what type of line you
                                                          > use is wear at all the connection points and lead lines on your rig,
                                                          > this is where you are mostly likely to have a failure.
                                                          >
                                                          > The slight increase in drag from a heavier line far out weighs the
                                                          > higher risk of failure associated with a lighter one. Besides if the
                                                          > wind is so light that I'm worrying about line drag I'm not going to be
                                                          > on the water.
                                                          >
                                                          > Latter-
                                                          > Fritz
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