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Re: The Royal Joust--Sixth Tilt

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  • Will Brown
    So, they kicked you out of Santa Rosa area, eh, serves you right. More than likely.
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 30, 2007
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      So, they kicked you out of Santa Rosa area, eh, serves you right.

      <<Perhaps our disagreement is a figment of your very fertile  imagination.>>

      More than likely.   [wb]    



    • James Rovira
      Don -- Do you really think K is indifferent to the object of our faith? For example, in this sentence:
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 1, 2007
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        Don --

        Do you really think K is indifferent to the object of our faith? For
        example, in this sentence:

        <<Our expectation is of reaching "The Good," the unknown goal, but we
        do not know and cannot say what "The Good" is or will be. It isn't
        even a concern or at least should not be.>>

        You don't think K identified "the good" with the Christian God? What
        constitutes the paradox of RB, then?

        Jim R
      • Don
        Aloha, How does anything I said translate to indifference? don
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 1, 2007
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          Aloha,
          How does anything I said translate to
          indifference?
          don

          --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "James Rovira" <jamesrovira@...> wrote:
          >
          > Don --
          >
          > Do you really think K is indifferent to the object of our faith? For
          > example, in this sentence:
          >
          > <<Our expectation is of reaching "The Good," the unknown goal, but we
          > do not know and cannot say what "The Good" is or will be. It isn't
          > even a concern or at least should not be.>>
          >
          > You don't think K identified "the good" with the Christian God? What
          > constitutes the paradox of RB, then?
          >
          > Jim R
          >
        • Don
          Woilly, And who s the they that did the kicking? You seem a bit too familiar with the situation. I wondered who was behind the conspiracy. Now it all starts to
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 1, 2007
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            Woilly,
            And who's the they that did the kicking? You seem a bit too familiar with the situation. I wondered who was behind the conspiracy. Now it all starts to clear up.
            Don the Beachcomber


            --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Will Brown" <wilbro99@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > So, they kicked you out of Santa Rosa area, eh, serves you right.
            >
            > <<Perhaps our disagreement is a figment of your very fertile
            > imagination.>>
            >
            > More than likely. [wb]
            >
          • Will Brown
            They is perhaps a figment of your over fertile imagination? ... all
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 1, 2007
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              They is perhaps a figment of your over fertile imagination?   

              --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <don@...> wrote:
              >
              > Woilly,
              > And who's the they that did the kicking? You seem a bit too familiar
              > with the situation. I wondered who was behind the conspiracy. Now it all
              > starts to clear up.
              > Don the Beachcomber
              >
              > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Will Brown" wilbro99@
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > So, they kicked you out of Santa Rosa area, eh, serves you right.
              > >
              > > <<Perhaps our disagreement is a figment of your very fertile
              > > imagination.>>
              > >
              > > More than likely. [wb]
              > >
              >
            • Don
              James, Getting back to this post let me say I think I at least partly address your question in post 7118 To Willy. But I want to point out that my quote below
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 5, 2007
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                James,
                Getting back to this post let me say I think I at least partly address your question in post 7118 To Willy. But I want to point out that my quote below capitalizes 'The Good.' The capitalization has meaning to me in that I am not talking a bout any thing but only 'The Good.' Do you still want to ask your question?
                Don

                --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "James Rovira" <jamesrovira@...> wrote:
                >
                > Don --
                >
                > Do you really think K is indifferent to the object of our faith? For
                > example, in this sentence:
                >
                > <<Our expectation is of reaching "The Good," the unknown goal, but we
                > do not know and cannot say what "The Good" is or will be. It isn't
                > even a concern or at least should not be.>>
                >
                > You don't think K identified "the good" with the Christian God? What
                > constitutes the paradox of RB, then?
                >
                > Jim R
                >
              • James Rovira
                Don -- Thanks for the reply. Post 7118 does and does not answer my question. Here s your response:
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 5, 2007
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                  Don -- Thanks for the reply. Post 7118 does and does not answer my
                  question. Here's your response:

                  <<The third is always only God, the infinite, and the infinite always
                  trumps the human in terms of who is in control whether we call it fate
                  or God or the eternal or whatever. What we call it is not important,
                  how we respond is.>>

                  When you say at first without qualification that "the third is always
                  only God, the infinite," yes, I think that is K's point of view.

                  But you go on to say it doesn't matter what we call it -- fate, God,
                  or the eternal -- but how we respond to it is important. That I don't
                  think is K's view at all. It does matter what we call it in K. CA
                  makes a very serious distinction between "fate," which is a
                  Greek/aesthetic category, and the ethical (represented by Judaism),
                  and the religious (represented by Christianity properly related to).

                  Now when you identify "the Good" in caps, that seems to me to point to
                  Greek conceptions, specifically Socratic. And I think K starts there
                  but develops it into a very specific Christian notion.

                  So, anyway, if you'd still like to elaborate, I'd appreciate it.

                  Jim R

                  On Dec 5, 2007 7:29 PM, Don <don@...> wrote:

                  > James,
                  > Getting back to this post let me say I think I at least partly address your
                  > question in post 7118 To Willy. But I want to point out that my quote below
                  > capitalizes 'The Good.' The capitalization has meaning to me in that I am
                  > not talking a bout any thing but only 'The Good.' Do you still want to ask
                  > your question?
                  > Don
                • Don
                  James, you are thinking in terms of conception. That is different from what I am talking about. I am talking about the existential fact, what happens. It is
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 5, 2007
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                    James, you are thinking in terms of conception. That is different from what I am talking about. I am talking about the existential fact, what happens. It is the same existential reality no matter what you call it. The concept you use to reflect on the reality is likely to have an effect on how you respond to it  but it doesn't change the way the fact or reality presents itself. Things happen to us in life, things we have little if anything to say about and have little if any control over. We can call these things fate or we can call them an act of God but that does not change what has happened and what will happen in the future. The concepts you use to reflect on what has happened may effect how you respond, yet if you have a wrong concept and somehow respond rightly, will God quibble about your concept and condemn your right action? If your an enlightenment rationalist God you probably will but if your K's God you will not. How you respond is the bottom line. What you call it is secondary and matters only if it leads you to the wrong 'how.' However grace overcomes even a wrong how. The task is to venture even with a wrong concept and a wrong how rather than sit back and keep analyzing the situation ad infinitum. As you keep on this way you have a chance to finally get it right as you grapple with the reality as it is. If you sit back and keep working on the conception you will never get it right.
                    DDD

                    --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "James Rovira" <jamesrovira@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Don -- Thanks for the reply. Post 7118 does and does not answer my
                    > question. Here's your response:
                    >
                    > <<The third is always only God, the infinite, and the infinite always
                    > trumps the human in terms of who is in control whether we call it fate
                    > or God or the eternal or whatever. What we call it is not important,
                    > how we respond is.>>
                    >
                    > When you say at first without qualification that "the third is always
                    > only God, the infinite," yes, I think that is K's point of view.
                    >
                    > But you go on to say it doesn't matter what we call it -- fate, God,
                    > or the eternal -- but how we respond to it is important. That I don't
                    > think is K's view at all. It does matter what we call it in K. CA
                    > makes a very serious distinction between "fate," which is a
                    > Greek/aesthetic category, and the ethical (represented by Judaism),
                    > and the religious (represented by Christianity properly related to).
                    >
                    > Now when you identify "the Good" in caps, that seems to me to point to
                    > Greek conceptions, specifically Socratic. And I think K starts there
                    > but develops it into a very specific Christian notion.
                    >
                    > So, anyway, if you'd still like to elaborate, I'd appreciate it.
                    >
                    > Jim R
                    >
                    > On Dec 5, 2007 7:29 PM, Don don@... wrote:
                    >
                    > > James,
                    > > Getting back to this post let me say I think I at least partly address your
                    > > question in post 7118 To Willy. But I want to point out that my quote below
                    > > capitalizes 'The Good.' The capitalization has meaning to me in that I am
                    > > not talking a bout any thing but only 'The Good.' Do you still want to ask
                    > > your question?
                    > > Don
                    >
                  • James Rovira
                    I understand what you re saying, Don, but I have no idea how you can say this represents K s own belief. Can you quote from him showing me where he says
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 6, 2007
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                      I understand what you're saying, Don, but I have no idea how you can
                      say this represents K's own belief. Can you quote from him showing me
                      where he says something like, "it doesn't matter what you call it?"

                      On the most fundamental level, yes, God is God no matter what we
                      think. But to Kierkegaard, God is not Fate (see Concept of Anxiety),
                      and it does make a difference to -us- (a very big difference) whether
                      we conceive of God as the Christian God or as fate. So far as I can
                      tell, neither Kierkegaard nor his pseudonyms comment on what God
                      thinks if we call God, God, or if we call God, fate. They're
                      primarily concerned with the conception end of it, in your words.
                      They don't seem to have quite the same confidence you do that it
                      doesn't matter to God or that they could even know.

                      I would think that if something makes so big a difference to us that
                      it would make a difference to God as well, since I don't think God is
                      indifferent to us.

                      Jim R

                      On Dec 6, 2007 1:36 AM, Don <don@...> wrote:
                      > James, you are thinking in terms of conception. That is different from what
                      > I am talking about. I am talking about the existential fact, what happens.
                      > It is the same existential reality no matter what you call it. The concept
                      > you use to reflect on the reality is likely to have an effect on how you
                      > respond to it but it doesn't change the way the fact or reality presents
                      > itself. Things happen to us in life, things we have little if anything to
                      > say about and have little if any control over. We can call these things fate
                      > or we can call them an act of God but that does not change what has happened
                      > and what will happen in the future. The concepts you use to reflect on what
                      > has happened may effect how you respond, yet if you have a wrong concept and
                      > somehow respond rightly, will God quibble about your concept and condemn
                      > your right action? If your an enlightenment rationalist God you probably
                      > will but if your K's God you will not. How you respond is the bottom line.
                      > What you call it is secondary and matters only if it leads you to the wrong
                      > 'how.' However grace overcomes even a wrong how. The task is to venture even
                      > with a wrong concept and a wrong how rather than sit back and keep analyzing
                      > the situation ad infinitum. As you keep on this way you have a chance to
                      > finally get it right as you grapple with the reality as it is. If you sit
                      > back and keep working on the conception you will never get it right.
                      > DDD
                      >
                    • Don
                      Here is a quote: If someone who lives in the midst of Christianity enters, with the knowledge of the true idea of God, the house of God, the house of the true
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 6, 2007
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                        Here is a quote:

                         "If someone who lives in the midst of Christianity enters, with the knowledge of the true idea of God, the house of God, the house of the true God, and prays, but prays in untruth, and if someone who lives in an idolatrous land but prays with all the passion of infinity, although his eyes are resting upon an idol – where, then, is there more truth? The one prays in truth to God although he is worshipping an idol; the other prays in untruth to the true God and is therefore in truth worshipping an idol." (CUP, Hong, p. 201; Lowrie, p. 179-80)

                        Don
                        --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "James Rovira" <jamesrovira@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I understand what you're saying, Don, but I have no idea how you can
                        > say this represents K's own belief. Can you quote from him showing me
                        > where he says something like, "it doesn't matter what you call it?"
                        >
                        > On the most fundamental level, yes, God is God no matter what we
                        > think. But to Kierkegaard, God is not Fate (see Concept of Anxiety),
                        > and it does make a difference to -us- (a very big difference) whether
                        > we conceive of God as the Christian God or as fate. So far as I can
                        > tell, neither Kierkegaard nor his pseudonyms comment on what God
                        > thinks if we call God, God, or if we call God, fate. They're
                        > primarily concerned with the conception end of it, in your words.
                        > They don't seem to have quite the same confidence you do that it
                        > doesn't matter to God or that they could even know.
                        >
                        > I would think that if something makes so big a difference to us that
                        > it would make a difference to God as well, since I don't think God is
                        > indifferent to us.
                        >
                        > Jim R
                        >
                        > On Dec 6, 2007 1:36 AM, Don don@... wrote:
                        > > James, you are thinking in terms of conception. That is different from what
                        > > I am talking about. I am talking about the existential fact, what happens.
                        > > It is the same existential reality no matter what you call it. The concept
                        > > you use to reflect on the reality is likely to have an effect on how you
                        > > respond to it but it doesn't change the way the fact or reality presents
                        > > itself. Things happen to us in life, things we have little if anything to
                        > > say about and have little if any control over. We can call these things fate
                        > > or we can call them an act of God but that does not change what has happened
                        > > and what will happen in the future. The concepts you use to reflect on what
                        > > has happened may effect how you respond, yet if you have a wrong concept and
                        > > somehow respond rightly, will God quibble about your concept and condemn
                        > > your right action? If your an enlightenment rationalist God you probably
                        > > will but if your K's God you will not. How you respond is the bottom line.
                        > > What you call it is secondary and matters only if it leads you to the wrong
                        > > 'how.' However grace overcomes even a wrong how. The task is to venture even
                        > > with a wrong concept and a wrong how rather than sit back and keep analyzing
                        > > the situation ad infinitum. As you keep on this way you have a chance to
                        > > finally get it right as you grapple with the reality as it is. If you sit
                        > > back and keep working on the conception you will never get it right.
                        > > DDD
                        > >
                        >
                      • James Rovira
                        Yes, Don, but the quotation assumes that there is a true God to which one may pray falsely to -- the words true God is associated with Christianity
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 6, 2007
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                          Yes, Don, but the quotation assumes that there is a "true God" to
                          which one may pray falsely to -- the words "true God" is associated
                          with "Christianity" repeatedly in the opening lines, implying that the
                          idol is a "false god." Climacus's argument develops, and as he gets
                          to the end, he claims that we can only get the "how" right with the
                          right "what."

                          I think what's missed is Climacus's assumption of the universality of
                          Christianity -- the Christian God is the true God for all people in
                          K's thinking, so that if we pray "truly" we always pray -to the
                          Christian God- even if we mistake this for some idol or false god.

                          This is really no different from, say, C.S. Lewis's _The Last Battle_.

                          Jim R

                          On Dec 6, 2007 2:49 PM, Don <don@...> wrote:
                          > Here is a quote:
                          >
                          >
                          > "If someone who lives in the midst of Christianity enters, with the
                          > knowledge of the true idea of God, the house of God, the house of the true
                          > God, and prays, but prays in untruth, and if someone who lives in an
                          > idolatrous land but prays with all the passion of infinity, although his
                          > eyes are resting upon an idol – where, then, is there more truth? The one
                          > prays in truth to God although he is worshipping an idol; the other prays in
                          > untruth to the true God and is therefore in truth worshipping an idol."
                          > (CUP, Hong, p. 201; Lowrie, p. 179-80) Don
                        • Don Anderson
                          I will drop this as your argument is circiling back. ... From: James Rovira To: Sent: Thursday,
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 6, 2007
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                            I will drop this as your argument is circiling back.
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "James Rovira" <jamesrovira@...>
                            To: <kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:01 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Kierkegaardians] Re: The Good


                            Yes, Don, but the quotation assumes that there is a "true God" to
                            which one may pray falsely to -- the words "true God" is associated
                            with "Christianity" repeatedly in the opening lines, implying that the
                            idol is a "false god." Climacus's argument develops, and as he gets
                            to the end, he claims that we can only get the "how" right with the
                            right "what."

                            I think what's missed is Climacus's assumption of the universality of
                            Christianity -- the Christian God is the true God for all people in
                            K's thinking, so that if we pray "truly" we always pray -to the
                            Christian God- even if we mistake this for some idol or false god.

                            This is really no different from, say, C.S. Lewis's _The Last Battle_.

                            Jim R

                            On Dec 6, 2007 2:49 PM, Don <don@...> wrote:
                            > Here is a quote:
                            >
                            >
                            > "If someone who lives in the midst of Christianity enters, with the
                            > knowledge of the true idea of God, the house of God, the house of the true
                            > God, and prays, but prays in untruth, and if someone who lives in an
                            > idolatrous land but prays with all the passion of infinity, although his
                            > eyes are resting upon an idol – where, then, is there more truth? The one
                            > prays in truth to God although he is worshipping an idol; the other prays
                            > in
                            > untruth to the true God and is therefore in truth worshipping an idol."
                            > (CUP, Hong, p. 201; Lowrie, p. 179-80) Don


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