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Re: Hamann; Presence and the Present

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  • KTP
    ... Whoa Bill, hold your horses! It was not I who said what was quoted. I only posted the quote. It was intended to stimulate, not to hinder thought. If you re
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 5, 2007
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      --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <billybob98103@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "KTP" nnn88388@ wrote:
      > >
      > Hinderance, When you inform us that Nietsche "longs for a false
      > future of immortality" I suggest you misunderstand Nietzsche.
      >
      > Both Nietzsche and Kierkegaard understand existence as real and not
      > the concept of existence. One cannot have a concept of God, and
      > merely using the word shows your lack of understanding of the
      > difference.
      >
      > One must accept the limits of existence as conceived in space to
      > which one /was/ not a part, but seemed to be. This requies a "leap
      > of faith. One is still able to create a future by relating to the
      > "eternity of existence (Postscript, p. 509.)". Bill

       

      Whoa Bill, hold your horses!

      It was not I who said what was quoted. I only posted the quote. It was intended to stimulate, not to hinder thought. If you're interested to read the whole book and maybe find out what the quote is getting at, read the book .

      Cowboy Nick


      > > "Hamann himself glories in his view that reality should be
      > > experienced rather than excessively rationalized. `The first
      > > clothing of all men was a rhapsody of fig leaves.' The word
      > > `rhapsody' for Hamann refers first to the temporal experience of
      > > music and the rhapsody of the written word flows from the rhapsody
      > of
      > > fig leaves referring to the creativity of the human person as
      > enfleshed.
      > >
      > > "Hamann's experience is based upon the enfleshed experiences of
      > > presence: `The first shout of creation; the first giving life of its
      > > historian; the first revealing and gratification of nature are all
      > > joined together in the words: Let there be light. For it is in this
      > that
      > > the experience of the presence of things is given birth.' Presence
      > > and the present in which it takes place are the heart of creation.
      > > Creation shouts presence and the presence is enfleshed."
      > >
      > > "This presence is ultimately experienced as God in the present. Once
      > > one begins to experience this presence one must exclaim `one does
      > > not know where to turn in order to avoid the intensity of His most
      > > amazing workings directed towards us.' It is a paradox that for
      > > various reasons some people do not experience this presence at all,
      > but
      > > when one does begin to experience the presence of God one's life is
      > > engulfed by it.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > "Eternity must be for people a pleasant sleep. But Hamann wonders if
      > > mankind is not playing with these notions so that security can be
      > built
      > > up `through such word games of physiognomical and hypocritical
      > > nonsense.' Perhaps man would be far better off if he explored the
      > > limits of temporality now. `Rest and security (as people wish to
      > > know them) are as sharply cut off (for man) as the temporal from the
      > > eternal.' Hamann is wary of the meaning of the eternal. He is aware
      > > of the fact that he is alive now. Living is a great gift in and of
      > > itself and man should not throw it away in a vain effort to build
      > up a
      > > system of security which rests primarily upon an eternity which is
      > part
      > > of another life."
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > "He (Hamann) wants `a new powerful prophecy concerning the
      > > present.' The apocalypse should be and is being fulfilled in the
      > > present. Nietzsche came to see this desire for the prophecy and
      > > apocalypse of the present in somewhat the same way as Hamann
      > although
      > > not for the same set of reasons. He states, `to attain the superman
      > > for one moment, for this I suffer everything.' Hamann would suffer
      > > everything to enjoy the presence of God for one moment. Nietzsche
      > > exclaims that `the moment is immortal.' Hamann thinks man's
      > > immortality takes place now, in the moment when God's presence is
      > > manifested to him. Nietzsche feels that `Light, peace, no
      > > exaggerated longing constitutes eternalized happiness in the
      > eternalized
      > > moment correctly set forth.' Hamann does not long for a false future
      > > of immortality. He lives in the present in faith. His light is the
      > light
      > > who is Christ; his peace is the peace of Christ who appears now. The
      > > eternalized moment is correctly applied when man seeks to create now
      > > while in communication with the creative power of God. Nietzsche can
      > > exult, `If we affirm one single moment, we affirm not only ourselves
      > > but all existence.' Hamann knows that, by affirming the moment, man
      > > is true to his own human temporal existence and the existence of
      > other
      > > human beings, and also, that he is true to the God who manifests
      > Himself
      > > to man in this worldly, temporal existence."
      > >
      > > (Hamann on Language and Religion; Fascination with Time in this
      > World,
      > > pp 106-107, 114, 129-130)
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hindrance
      > >
      >

    • James Rovira
      Yeah, a leap of faith is implied in Concept of Anxiety ch. 5, and near the end of CUP, but I don t think he actually uses those words in either of those
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 5, 2007
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        Yeah, a "leap of faith" is implied in Concept of Anxiety ch. 5, and near the end of CUP, but I don't think he actually uses those words in either of those works. I haven't read it elsewhere, but I haven't read all of K.

        Jim R
      • KTP
        ... Very good Teddy, Now be a good little bear and remember: You can no longer defecate whenever and wherever you wish; you must only defecate in the
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 5, 2007
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          --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Will Brown" <wilbro99@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > KTP, I did a google on <Hamann, Kierkegaard> and found this. It's an
          > interesting take on Concept of Anxiety, what? ~-~-willy
          >
          >

           

          Very good Teddy,

          Now be a good little bear and remember:

          "You can no longer defecate whenever and wherever you wish; you must only defecate in the appropriately recognized place; the woods."

          Kula


          >
          >
          > http://www.colloquy.monash.edu.au/issue013/cameron.pdf
          > <http://www.colloquy.monash.edu.au/issue013/cameron.pdf>
          >
          > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "KTP" nnn88388@ wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > "Hamann himself glories in his view that reality should be
          > > experienced rather than excessively rationalized. `The first
          > > clothing of all men was a rhapsody of fig leaves.' The word
          > > `rhapsody' for Hamann refers first to the temporal experience of
          > > music and the rhapsody of the written word flows from the rhapsody of
          > > fig leaves referring to the creativity of the human person as
          > enfleshed.
          > >
          > > "Hamann's experience is based upon the enfleshed experiences of
          > > presence: `The first shout of creation; the first giving life of its
          > > historian; the first revealing and gratification of nature are all
          > > joined together in the words: Let there be light. For it is in this
          > that
          > > the experience of the presence of things is given birth.' Presence
          > > and the present in which it takes place are the heart of creation.
          > > Creation shouts presence and the presence is enfleshed."
          > >
          > > "This presence is ultimately experienced as God in the present. Once
          > > one begins to experience this presence one must exclaim `one does
          > > not know where to turn in order to avoid the intensity of His most
          > > amazing workings directed towards us.' It is a paradox that for
          > > various reasons some people do not experience this presence at all,
          > but
          > > when one does begin to experience the presence of God one's life is
          > > engulfed by it.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > "Eternity must be for people a pleasant sleep. But Hamann wonders if
          > > mankind is not playing with these notions so that security can be
          > built
          > > up `through such word games of physiognomical and hypocritical
          > > nonsense.' Perhaps man would be far better off if he explored the
          > > limits of temporality now. `Rest and security (as people wish to
          > > know them) are as sharply cut off (for man) as the temporal from the
          > > eternal.' Hamann is wary of the meaning of the eternal. He is aware
          > > of the fact that he is alive now. Living is a great gift in and of
          > > itself and man should not throw it away in a vain effort to build up a
          > > system of security which rests primarily upon an eternity which is
          > part
          > > of another life."
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > "He (Hamann) wants `a new powerful prophecy concerning the
          > > present.' The apocalypse should be and is being fulfilled in the
          > > present. Nietzsche came to see this desire for the prophecy and
          > > apocalypse of the present in somewhat the same way as Hamann although
          > > not for the same set of reasons. He states, `to attain the superman
          > > for one moment, for this I suffer everything.' Hamann would suffer
          > > everything to enjoy the presence of God for one moment. Nietzsche
          > > exclaims that `the moment is immortal.' Hamann thinks man's
          > > immortality takes place now, in the moment when God's presence is
          > > manifested to him. Nietzsche feels that `Light, peace, no
          > > exaggerated longing constitutes eternalized happiness in the
          > eternalized
          > > moment correctly set forth.' Hamann does not long for a false future
          > > of immortality. He lives in the present in faith. His light is the
          > light
          > > who is Christ; his peace is the peace of Christ who appears now. The
          > > eternalized moment is correctly applied when man seeks to create now
          > > while in communication with the creative power of God. Nietzsche can
          > > exult, `If we affirm one single moment, we affirm not only ourselves
          > > but all existence.' Hamann knows that, by affirming the moment, man
          > > is true to his own human temporal existence and the existence of other
          > > human beings, and also, that he is true to the God who manifests
          > Himself
          > > to man in this worldly, temporal existence."
          > >
          > > (Hamann on Language and Religion; Fascination with Time in this World,
          > > pp 106-107, 114, 129-130)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hindrance
          > >
          >
        • Bill
          ... wrote: Willy, Sorry, reduced to the extremity of existence (Postscript, p. 133.). Yes, I agree I doubt SK wrote leap of faith . I conflated the two,
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 6, 2007
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            --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Will Brown" <wilbro99@...>
            wrote:
            Willy, Sorry, "reduced to the extremity of existence (Postscript, p.
            133.)."

            Yes, I agree I doubt SK wrote "leap of faith". I conflated the two,
            but couldn't this be a short-hand expression? Could it be what is
            called a "short-circuit". Kierkegaard does describe in becoming
            Infinite, that "as soon as [something] is it it must have been it,
            which is inaccessible to all thought (p. 508, Posstricipt, infinite
            and eternal are used interchangably according to Hannay).". Bill
            >
            > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "KTP" <nnn88388@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" billybob98103@
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "KTP" nnn88388@ wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > Hinderance, When you inform us that Nietsche "longs for a false
            > > > future of immortality" I suggest you misunderstand Nietzsche.
            > > >
            > > > Both Nietzsche and Kierkegaard understand existence as real and
            not
            > > > the concept of existence. One cannot have a concept of God, and
            > > > merely using the word shows your lack of understanding of the
            > > > difference.
            > > >
            > > > One must accept the limits of existence as conceived in space to
            > > > which one /was/ not a part, but seemed to be. This requies
            a "leap
            > > > of faith. One is still able to create a future by relating to
            the
            > > > "eternity of existence (Postscript, p. 509.)". Bill
            > >
            >
            > I have looked at p. 509 of CUP, both Lowrie and Hong, and find no
            > "eternity of existence" mentioned, nor can I find anything about the
            > future being created. Would you check that reference again? I would
            like
            > to see what you are talking about. I also have it on good authority
            that
            > SK never used a term equivalent to 'leap of faith.' See Cambridge
            > Companion to Kierkegaard (207).
            >
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Whoa Bill, hold your horses!
            > >
            > > It was not I who said what was quoted. I only posted the quote.
            It was
            > > intended to stimulate, not to hinder thought. If you're
            interested to
            > > read the whole book and maybe find out what the quote is getting
            at,
            > > read the book .
            > >
            > > Cowboy Nick
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            > > > > "Hamann himself glories in his view that reality should be
            > > > > experienced rather than excessively rationalized. `The first
            > > > > clothing of all men was a rhapsody of fig leaves.' The word
            > > > > `rhapsody' for Hamann refers first to the temporal experience
            of
            > > > > music and the rhapsody of the written word flows from the
            rhapsody
            > > > of
            > > > > fig leaves referring to the creativity of the human person as
            > > > enfleshed.
            > > > >
            > > > > "Hamann's experience is based upon the enfleshed experiences
            of
            > > > > presence: `The first shout of creation; the first giving life
            of
            > its
            > > > > historian; the first revealing and gratification of nature
            are all
            > > > > joined together in the words: Let there be light. For it is in
            > this
            > > > that
            > > > > the experience of the presence of things is given birth.'
            Presence
            > > > > and the present in which it takes place are the heart of
            creation.
            > > > > Creation shouts presence and the presence is enfleshed."
            > > > >
            > > > > "This presence is ultimately experienced as God in the
            present.
            > Once
            > > > > one begins to experience this presence one must exclaim `one
            does
            > > > > not know where to turn in order to avoid the intensity of His
            most
            > > > > amazing workings directed towards us.' It is a paradox that
            for
            > > > > various reasons some people do not experience this presence at
            > all,
            > > > but
            > > > > when one does begin to experience the presence of God one's
            life
            > is
            > > > > engulfed by it.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > "Eternity must be for people a pleasant sleep. But Hamann
            wonders
            > if
            > > > > mankind is not playing with these notions so that security
            can be
            > > > built
            > > > > up `through such word games of physiognomical and hypocritical
            > > > > nonsense.' Perhaps man would be far better off if he explored
            the
            > > > > limits of temporality now. `Rest and security (as people wish
            to
            > > > > know them) are as sharply cut off (for man) as the temporal
            from
            > the
            > > > > eternal.' Hamann is wary of the meaning of the eternal. He is
            > aware
            > > > > of the fact that he is alive now. Living is a great gift in
            and of
            > > > > itself and man should not throw it away in a vain effort to
            build
            > > > up a
            > > > > system of security which rests primarily upon an eternity
            which is
            > > > part
            > > > > of another life."
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > "He (Hamann) wants `a new powerful prophecy concerning the
            > > > > present.' The apocalypse should be and is being fulfilled in
            the
            > > > > present. Nietzsche came to see this desire for the prophecy
            and
            > > > > apocalypse of the present in somewhat the same way as Hamann
            > > > although
            > > > > not for the same set of reasons. He states, `to attain the
            > superman
            > > > > for one moment, for this I suffer everything.' Hamann would
            suffer
            > > > > everything to enjoy the presence of God for one moment.
            Nietzsche
            > > > > exclaims that `the moment is immortal.' Hamann thinks man's
            > > > > immortality takes place now, in the moment when God's
            presence is
            > > > > manifested to him. Nietzsche feels that `Light, peace, no
            > > > > exaggerated longing constitutes eternalized happiness in the
            > > > eternalized
            > > > > moment correctly set forth.' Hamann does not long for a false
            > future
            > > > > of immortality. He lives in the present in faith. His light
            is the
            > > > light
            > > > > who is Christ; his peace is the peace of Christ who appears
            now.
            > The
            > > > > eternalized moment is correctly applied when man seeks to
            create
            > now
            > > > > while in communication with the creative power of God.
            Nietzsche
            > can
            > > > > exult, `If we affirm one single moment, we affirm not only
            > ourselves
            > > > > but all existence.' Hamann knows that, by affirming the
            moment,
            > man
            > > > > is true to his own human temporal existence and the existence
            of
            > > > other
            > > > > human beings, and also, that he is true to the God who
            manifests
            > > > Himself
            > > > > to man in this worldly, temporal existence."
            > > > >
            > > > > (Hamann on Language and Religion; Fascination with Time in
            this
            > > > World,
            > > > > pp 106-107, 114, 129-130)
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Hindrance
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Bill
            ... wrote: Willy, I m not sure I understand your courageous attempt to explain what is meant by freedom. However, SK writes that there is never a moment by
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 6, 2007
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              --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Will Brown" <wilbro99@...>
              wrote:
              Willy, I'm not sure I understand your courageous attempt to explain
              what is meant by freedom.

              However, SK writes that there is never a moment by which one could
              look back, since this moment is always "restless", and as have some
              decribed, implies that there is no place to stand.

              The awareness of our past comes from being changed by this awareness
              that only "seems to be". The understanding of "I was" is an
              announcement that lacks any medium for expression, unless it is
              expressed by the Word that remains inexpressible since it comes in to
              time, and in a space that never was present except retrospectively
              from a point of view that itself lacks any self-presence.

              This is what Lacan describes as a fantasy, or what occurs when we
              remember a dream. I'd appreciate your interpretation, and possible
              if you understand a "fantasy" from your readings of Eastern
              Philosophy. Bill
              >
              > I always travel to the other side of the mountain to see what I can
              see.
              > That coming into being business where going out of business is the
              > revelation of what had to be for what is to be to be has always
              caught
              > my attention for some reason. The only way it can work is if that
              which
              > came into business came together in the wrong way because it put
              itself
              > together in the wrong way. I mean, otherwise, there could be no
              > revelation of the error.
              >
              > If I were to guess, which I shall, grasping the temporal ring always
              > confines the freedom necessary to allow the grasp to be. So, in
              freedom,
              > one continually confines oneself to being bound by the self one
              has, in
              > becoming oneself, chosen for oneself. This binding always seeks
              > unbinding, as is the nature of life to escape the net, which
              escape, in
              > turn, further binds it; much like that Chinese finger puzzle, This
              is
              > where the future maintains the temporal by filling the past with its
              > history.
              >
              > The question that remains is why one must always enter via the
              error. Is
              > it anxiety, as SK has fashioned the answer to be, or is that
              anxiety a
              > natural upshot of awareness reaching for order? If I were to
              speculate,
              > I would say that the temporal grasp is the natural upshot of
              remembering
              > another time, having nothing whatsoever to do with anxiety; the
              anxiety
              > appears under the rubric of self-preservation, which accounts for
              the
              > reticence to lose the ties that bind while at the same time trying
              to
              > escape the bind. I am reminded of something:
              >
              > "Figuratively speaking, it is as if an error slipped into an
              author's
              > writing and the error became conscious of itself as an error—perhaps
              > it actually was not a mistake but in a much higher sense an
              essential
              > part of the whole production—and now this error wants to mutiny
              > against the author, out of hatred toward him, forbidding him to
              correct
              > it and in maniacal defiance saying to him: No, I refuse to be
              erased; I
              > will stand as a witness against you, a witness that you are a
              > second-rate author." (SUD, Hong, p.74) (Lowrie, p. 207) (Hannay, p.
              105)
              >
              > So, innocence and immediacy are two separate ducks, not birds of a
              > feather. Not being a scholar, I have no idea of whether his take on
              the
              > book is standard scholareze or not. Have you read Marino's (CCtK)
              take
              > on the book? [I have written this on the other side of the
              mountain,
              > whilst doing my thing in the woods] -.- Theo
              >
              > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "KTP" <nnn88388@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Will Brown" wilbro99@
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > KTP, I did a google on <Hamann, Kierkegaard> and found this.
              It's an
              > > > interesting take on Concept of Anxiety, what? ~-~-willy
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Very good Teddy,
              > >
              > > Now be a good little bear and remember:
              > >
              > > "You can no longer defecate whenever and wherever you wish; you
              must
              > > only defecate in the appropriately recognized place; the woods."
              > >
              > > Kula
              > >
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > http://www.colloquy.monash.edu.au/issue013/cameron.pdf
              > > > <http://www.colloquy.monash.edu.au/issue013/cameron.pdf>
              > > >
              > > > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "KTP" nnn88388@ wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > "Hamann himself glories in his view that reality should be
              > > > > experienced rather than excessively rationalized. `The first
              > > > > clothing of all men was a rhapsody of fig leaves.' The word
              > > > > `rhapsody' for Hamann refers first to the temporal experience
              of
              > > > > music and the rhapsody of the written word flows from the
              rhapsody
              > > of
              > > > > fig leaves referring to the creativity of the human person as
              > > > enfleshed.
              > > > >
              > > > > "Hamann's experience is based upon the enfleshed experiences
              of
              > > > > presence: `The first shout of creation; the first giving life
              of
              > its
              > > > > historian; the first revealing and gratification of nature
              are all
              > > > > joined together in the words: Let there be light. For it is in
              > this
              > > > that
              > > > > the experience of the presence of things is given birth.'
              Presence
              > > > > and the present in which it takes place are the heart of
              creation.
              > > > > Creation shouts presence and the presence is enfleshed."
              > > > >
              > > > > "This presence is ultimately experienced as God in the
              present.
              > Once
              > > > > one begins to experience this presence one must exclaim `one
              does
              > > > > not know where to turn in order to avoid the intensity of His
              most
              > > > > amazing workings directed towards us.' It is a paradox that
              for
              > > > > various reasons some people do not experience this presence at
              > all,
              > > > but
              > > > > when one does begin to experience the presence of God one's
              life
              > is
              > > > > engulfed by it.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > "Eternity must be for people a pleasant sleep. But Hamann
              wonders
              > if
              > > > > mankind is not playing with these notions so that security
              can be
              > > > built
              > > > > up `through such word games of physiognomical and hypocritical
              > > > > nonsense.' Perhaps man would be far better off if he explored
              the
              > > > > limits of temporality now. `Rest and security (as people wish
              to
              > > > > know them) are as sharply cut off (for man) as the temporal
              from
              > the
              > > > > eternal.' Hamann is wary of the meaning of the eternal. He is
              > aware
              > > > > of the fact that he is alive now. Living is a great gift in
              and of
              > > > > itself and man should not throw it away in a vain effort to
              build
              > up
              > > a
              > > > > system of security which rests primarily upon an eternity
              which is
              > > > part
              > > > > of another life."
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > "He (Hamann) wants `a new powerful prophecy concerning the
              > > > > present.' The apocalypse should be and is being fulfilled in
              the
              > > > > present. Nietzsche came to see this desire for the prophecy
              and
              > > > > apocalypse of the present in somewhat the same way as Hamann
              > > although
              > > > > not for the same set of reasons. He states, `to attain the
              > superman
              > > > > for one moment, for this I suffer everything.' Hamann would
              suffer
              > > > > everything to enjoy the presence of God for one moment.
              Nietzsche
              > > > > exclaims that `the moment is immortal.' Hamann thinks man's
              > > > > immortality takes place now, in the moment when God's
              presence is
              > > > > manifested to him. Nietzsche feels that `Light, peace, no
              > > > > exaggerated longing constitutes eternalized happiness in the
              > > > eternalized
              > > > > moment correctly set forth.' Hamann does not long for a false
              > future
              > > > > of immortality. He lives in the present in faith. His light
              is the
              > > > light
              > > > > who is Christ; his peace is the peace of Christ who appears
              now.
              > The
              > > > > eternalized moment is correctly applied when man seeks to
              create
              > now
              > > > > while in communication with the creative power of God.
              Nietzsche
              > can
              > > > > exult, `If we affirm one single moment, we affirm not only
              > ourselves
              > > > > but all existence.' Hamann knows that, by affirming the
              moment,
              > man
              > > > > is true to his own human temporal existence and the existence
              of
              > > other
              > > > > human beings, and also, that he is true to the God who
              manifests
              > > > Himself
              > > > > to man in this worldly, temporal existence."
              > > > >
              > > > > (Hamann on Language and Religion; Fascination with Time in
              this
              > > World,
              > > > > pp 106-107, 114, 129-130)
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Hindrance
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Bill
              ... wrote: Jim R., Yep, that is very clear. Perhaps the two (leap and faith) can be combined if we also assume that there is an established unity by accepting
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 6, 2007
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                --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Will Brown" <wilbro99@...>
                wrote:
                Jim R., Yep, that is very clear. Perhaps the two (leap and faith)
                can be combined if we also assume that there is an established unity
                by accepting responsibility to choose oneself, and reveal a self to
                the world?

                Is not this occuring at the same time of the so called
                "leap of faith" in which SK describes a relationship to something in
                time as a relationship to the eternal-in-time? My question is about
                initially not being the Infinite that implies being an "undelimited
                whole" and as such the determinate of change not something subject to
                differntation or change. In other words, "as soon as [something] is
                it it must have been it, which is inaccessible to all thought (p.
                509, Postcript.)". Bill
                > From Professor Ferreira's essay in the Cambridge Companion to
                > Kierkegaard, titled Faith and the Kierkegaardian Leap, page 207:
                >
                > "The popular association of the leap with with Kierkegaard is often
                > couched in terms of the leap of faith. It is worthwhile to be
                reminded,
                > however, and interesting to note, that Kierkegaard never uses any
                Danish
                > equivalent of the English phrase "leap of faith," a phrase that
                involves
                > a circularity insofar as it seems to imply that the leap is made by
                > faith."
                >
                > It could mean to have faith and leap, but if the place one leaps to
                is
                > faith, then even that meaning has problems; one would trade one
                faith
                > for another in mid air. Go figure.
                >
                > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "James Rovira"
                <jamesrovira@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Yeah, a "leap of faith" is implied in Concept of Anxiety ch. 5,
                and
                > near the
                > > end of CUP, but I don't think he actually uses those words in
                either
                > of
                > > those works. I haven't read it elsewhere, but I haven't read all
                of K.
                > >
                > > Jim R
                > >
                >
              • Bill
                ... about what to do with their poop. Bill ... an ... rhapsody ... of its ... all ... this ... Presence ... creation. ... Once ... does ... most ... all, ...
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 6, 2007
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                  --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "KTP" <nnn88388@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >Bears are not middle class bougeousie. They don't have to worry
                  about what to do with their poop. Bill
                  >
                  > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "Will Brown" <wilbro99@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > KTP, I did a google on <Hamann, Kierkegaard> and found this. It's
                  an
                  > > interesting take on Concept of Anxiety, what? ~-~-willy
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Very good Teddy,
                  >
                  > Now be a good little bear and remember:
                  >
                  > "You can no longer defecate whenever and wherever you wish; you must
                  > only defecate in the appropriately recognized place; the woods."
                  >
                  > Kula
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > http://www.colloquy.monash.edu.au/issue013/cameron.pdf
                  > > <http://www.colloquy.monash.edu.au/issue013/cameron.pdf>
                  > >
                  > > --- In kierkegaardians@yahoogroups.com, "KTP" nnn88388@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > "Hamann himself glories in his view that reality should be
                  > > > experienced rather than excessively rationalized. `The first
                  > > > clothing of all men was a rhapsody of fig leaves.' The word
                  > > > `rhapsody' for Hamann refers first to the temporal experience of
                  > > > music and the rhapsody of the written word flows from the
                  rhapsody
                  > of
                  > > > fig leaves referring to the creativity of the human person as
                  > > enfleshed.
                  > > >
                  > > > "Hamann's experience is based upon the enfleshed experiences of
                  > > > presence: `The first shout of creation; the first giving life
                  of its
                  > > > historian; the first revealing and gratification of nature are
                  all
                  > > > joined together in the words: Let there be light. For it is in
                  this
                  > > that
                  > > > the experience of the presence of things is given birth.'
                  Presence
                  > > > and the present in which it takes place are the heart of
                  creation.
                  > > > Creation shouts presence and the presence is enfleshed."
                  > > >
                  > > > "This presence is ultimately experienced as God in the present.
                  Once
                  > > > one begins to experience this presence one must exclaim `one
                  does
                  > > > not know where to turn in order to avoid the intensity of His
                  most
                  > > > amazing workings directed towards us.' It is a paradox that for
                  > > > various reasons some people do not experience this presence at
                  all,
                  > > but
                  > > > when one does begin to experience the presence of God one's
                  life is
                  > > > engulfed by it.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > "Eternity must be for people a pleasant sleep. But Hamann
                  wonders if
                  > > > mankind is not playing with these notions so that security can
                  be
                  > > built
                  > > > up `through such word games of physiognomical and hypocritical
                  > > > nonsense.' Perhaps man would be far better off if he explored
                  the
                  > > > limits of temporality now. `Rest and security (as people wish to
                  > > > know them) are as sharply cut off (for man) as the temporal
                  from the
                  > > > eternal.' Hamann is wary of the meaning of the eternal. He is
                  aware
                  > > > of the fact that he is alive now. Living is a great gift in and
                  of
                  > > > itself and man should not throw it away in a vain effort to
                  build up
                  > a
                  > > > system of security which rests primarily upon an eternity which
                  is
                  > > part
                  > > > of another life."
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > "He (Hamann) wants `a new powerful prophecy concerning the
                  > > > present.' The apocalypse should be and is being fulfilled in the
                  > > > present. Nietzsche came to see this desire for the prophecy and
                  > > > apocalypse of the present in somewhat the same way as Hamann
                  > although
                  > > > not for the same set of reasons. He states, `to attain the
                  superman
                  > > > for one moment, for this I suffer everything.' Hamann would
                  suffer
                  > > > everything to enjoy the presence of God for one moment.
                  Nietzsche
                  > > > exclaims that `the moment is immortal.' Hamann thinks man's
                  > > > immortality takes place now, in the moment when God's presence
                  is
                  > > > manifested to him. Nietzsche feels that `Light, peace, no
                  > > > exaggerated longing constitutes eternalized happiness in the
                  > > eternalized
                  > > > moment correctly set forth.' Hamann does not long for a false
                  future
                  > > > of immortality. He lives in the present in faith. His light is
                  the
                  > > light
                  > > > who is Christ; his peace is the peace of Christ who appears
                  now. The
                  > > > eternalized moment is correctly applied when man seeks to
                  create now
                  > > > while in communication with the creative power of God.
                  Nietzsche can
                  > > > exult, `If we affirm one single moment, we affirm not only
                  ourselves
                  > > > but all existence.' Hamann knows that, by affirming the moment,
                  man
                  > > > is true to his own human temporal existence and the existence of
                  > other
                  > > > human beings, and also, that he is true to the God who manifests
                  > > Himself
                  > > > to man in this worldly, temporal existence."
                  > > >
                  > > > (Hamann on Language and Religion; Fascination with Time in this
                  > World,
                  > > > pp 106-107, 114, 129-130)
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hindrance
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
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