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Re: [SPAM] [kencyr] Meatspace

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  • Simon
    Thus spake Joan Wendland ... I suppose it s one of the many offspring of Bill Gibson s cyberspace . It s strange - He was lionised in the latter 80s & early
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 1, 2010
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      Thus spake Joan Wendland
      >>>>I've wondered that. At one point Jame sees him as a boy being held by
      >>>> >>>Bel, also in human shape, but this takes place in soulspace or the
      >>>> earth
      >>>>mother's hut, so it's not clear that he can be shifty in meatspace.
      >
      > Meatspace [chuckle] oh that's a great word. Thanks for starting my
      > morning off right - Joan

      I suppose it's one of the many offspring of Bill Gibson's 'cyberspace'.
      It's strange - He was lionised in the latter 80s & early 90s, yet he still
      hasn't received all the kudos due for how seminal a work Burning Chrome
      really was. It's everything they say it was, and more.

      ~~

      And IMO Neuromancer's bravura opening [ "The sky above the port was the
      color of television, tuned to a dead station." ] is the best beginning in
      SF since Roger Zelanzny's tour de force in the story The Doors of His
      Face, The Lamps of His Mouth [ "I'm a baitman. No one is born a baitman,
      except in a French novel where everyone is. (In fact, I think that's the
      title, — We are All Bait —. Pfft!)" ]
    • Paula Lieberman
      ... From: Simon To: Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM] [kencyr] Meatspace ... I don t
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 1, 2010
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Simon" <s1m0n@...>
        To: <kencyr@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 6:34 PM
        Subject: Re: [SPAM] [kencyr] Meatspace


        > Thus spake Joan Wendland
        >>>>>I've wondered that. At one point Jame sees him as a boy being held by
        >>>>> >>>Bel, also in human shape, but this takes place in soulspace or the
        >>>>> earth
        >>>>>mother's hut, so it's not clear that he can be shifty in meatspace.
        >>
        >> Meatspace [chuckle] oh that's a great word. Thanks for starting my
        >> morning off right - Joan

        I don't appreciate "meatspace" but then I'm allergic to cyberpunk....

        > I suppose it's one of the many offspring of Bill Gibson's 'cyberspace'.
        > It's strange - He was lionised in the latter 80s & early 90s, yet he still
        > hasn't received all the kudos due for how seminal a work Burning Chrome
        > really was. It's everything they say it was, and more.

        It did nothing for me.... actually the person who came up with the term
        "cyberpunk" was a minor writer from Minnesota whose name I can't think of at
        the moment....

        >
        > And IMO Neuromancer's bravura opening [ "The sky above the port was the
        > color of television, tuned to a dead station." ] is the best beginning in

        It repulsed rather than grabbed me...

        > SF since Roger Zelanzny's tour de force in the story The Doors of His
        > Face, The Lamps of His Mouth [ "I'm a baitman. No one is born a baitman,
        > except in a French novel where everyone is. (In fact, I think that's the
        > title, — We are All Bait —. Pfft!)" ]
        =
      • David Brukman
        ... It s Bruce Bethke according to Wikipedia. ... You have to know how televisions worked when the novel was
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 1, 2010
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          On 2010-04-01 18:47, Paula Lieberman wrote:
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Simon"<s1m0n@...>
          >> I suppose it's one of the many offspring of Bill Gibson's 'cyberspace'.
          >> It's strange - He was lionised in the latter 80s& early 90s, yet he still
          >> hasn't received all the kudos due for how seminal a work Burning Chrome
          >> really was. It's everything they say it was, and more.
          >>
          > It did nothing for me.... actually the person who came up with the term
          > "cyberpunk" was a minor writer from Minnesota whose name I can't think of at
          > the moment....
          >
          >
          It's Bruce Bethke <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Bethke> according
          to Wikipedia.
          >> And IMO Neuromancer's bravura opening [ "The sky above the port was the
          >> color of television, tuned to a dead station." ] is the best beginning in
          >>
          >
          You have to know how televisions worked when the novel was written.
          otherwise, the color image may be solid blue, or perhaps black.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Simon
          Thus spake David Brukman ... Egads! That s true. I m officially ancient. And it s ironic that a work about the dawn of the digit, which began with an image
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 1, 2010
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            Thus spake David Brukman

            > You have to know how televisions worked when the novel was written.
            > otherwise, the color image may be solid blue, or perhaps black.

            Egads! That's true. I'm officially ancient. And it's ironic that a work
            about the dawn of the digit, which began with an image that was - then -
            brilliantly calibrated to convey all that newness grown old, has instead
            become a prompt casualty of digital media.

            Burning Chrome also contains the much-quoted line "the street finds its
            own uses for things", which he later explained in an interview came from
            one of his reactions to cutting-edge tech. He'd picture it dusty, battered
            & forlorn on a shelf at the back of a salvation army thrift store, and
            then write about what the person who digs it out of the pile wants it for.
          • Simon
            Thus spake David Brukman ... Props to Bruce, but they re not comparable achievements. Cyberpunk became the name of an obscure sub-genre of a not much less
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 1, 2010
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              Thus spake David Brukman
              > On 2010-04-01 18:47, Paula Lieberman wrote:

              >> It did nothing for me.... actually the person who came up with the term
              >> "cyberpunk" was a minor writer from Minnesota whose name I can't think
              >> of at
              >> the moment....
              >>
              >>
              > It's Bruce Bethke <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Bethke> according
              > to Wikipedia.

              Props to Bruce, but they're not comparable achievements. Cyberpunk became
              the name of an obscure sub-genre of a not much less obscure genre of
              fiction, a school that was already passe by end of it's own decade,
              whereas cyberspace supplied one of the dominant metaphors of this era.
            • Paula Lieberman
              ... From: David Brukman To: Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM] [kencyr] Meatspace ... It
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 1, 2010
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "David Brukman" <david@...>
                To: <kencyr@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 7:38 PM
                Subject: Re: [SPAM] [kencyr] Meatspace


                > On 2010-04-01 18:47, Paula Lieberman wrote:
                >> ----- Original Message -----
                >> From: "Simon"<s1m0n@...>
                >>> I suppose it's one of the many offspring of Bill Gibson's 'cyberspace'.
                >>> It's strange - He was lionised in the latter 80s& early 90s, yet he
                >>> still
                >>> hasn't received all the kudos due for how seminal a work Burning Chrome
                >>> really was. It's everything they say it was, and more.
                >>>
                >> It did nothing for me.... actually the person who came up with the term
                >> "cyberpunk" was a minor writer from Minnesota whose name I can't think of
                >> at
                >> the moment....
                >>
                >>
                > It's Bruce Bethke <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Bethke> according
                > to Wikipedia.
                >>> And IMO Neuromancer's bravura opening [ "The sky above the port was the
                >>> color of television, tuned to a dead station." ] is the best beginning
                >>> in
                >>>
                > You have to know how televisions worked when the novel was written.
                > otherwise, the color image may be solid blue, or perhaps black.

                It left me negatively impressed, and I knew how CRT/VDTs/TV technology with
                display tube worked. I was left very underwhelmed by the imagery/metaphor.
              • Matthew Brown
                ... Odds are Gibson did not know how it worked. He know almost nothing about computers; Neuromancer was composed on a typewriter. When it came to being
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 1, 2010
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                  On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Paula Lieberman <paal@...> wrote:
                  > It left me negatively impressed, and I knew how CRT/VDTs/TV technology with
                  > display tube worked.  I was left very underwhelmed by the imagery/metaphor.

                  Odds are Gibson did not know how it worked. He know almost nothing
                  about computers; Neuromancer was composed on a typewriter.

                  When it came to being imaginative, that was probably a good thing. It
                  also led to some howlers, of course.

                  -Matt
                • Simon
                  Thus spake Matthew Brown ... In the year it was written, 1981, not a whole lot of people were writing things on a computer. Commodore PETs were around, and
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 1, 2010
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                    Thus spake Matthew Brown
                    > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Paula Lieberman <paal@...> wrote:
                    >> It left me negatively impressed, and I knew how CRT/VDTs/TV technology
                    >> with
                    >> display tube worked.  I was left very underwhelmed by the
                    >> imagery/metaphor.
                    >
                    > Odds are Gibson did not know how it worked. He know almost nothing
                    > about computers; Neuromancer was composed on a typewriter.

                    In the year it was written, 1981, not a whole lot of people were writing
                    things on a computer. Commodore PETs were around, and that year my high
                    school got - excitingly - an entire classroom equipped with PETs. Well,
                    one pet per 2 or 3 stundents, anyway. But they got to TOUCH it. I was
                    moved by the hype to sign up for computer science that year, but got stuck
                    in the other class, which had a single Los Alamos-era (I exagerate, but
                    not by much) Wang 'main frame' at the back of the room and a seriously out
                    of his depth junior math teacher (Mr Macallum, who looked about 12, even
                    to us) at the front. He knew about as much about computers as Gibson but
                    cared a whole lot less.

                    We all sat at empty desks and coloured-in the little ovals - technology
                    had advanced beyond the punch but had not surrendered the punchcard. We
                    used fat black graphite pencils; one card per line of code, and our
                    'programs' topped out at decks of forty or so. At the end of the period,
                    the teacher would gingerly feed everyone's cards into the hopper. At the
                    start of the next lesson, he'd dole out our share of the ensuing
                    print-out, and we'd try to figure out why it didn't print 'Hello, World!"
                    the way it was supposed to. Working up to hello world took the entire
                    semester, IIRC. I passed.

                    I was in University in 86 or so before I began actually writing on a
                    computer. A rich-kid housemate had a Franklin Ace, which was an Apple II
                    knock off. I don't know when no-name computers like it began being called
                    clones, but I don't recall it happening in Montreal at that time. The ACE
                    had an OS on one 320k 5.25 inch floppy disk, a word-processor
                    ("Acewriter") on a second, and we each had to have a third floopy of our
                    own to save work to. No hard drive. This was the year that Gibson
                    published either Burning Chrome (story collection) or Neuromancer,
                    garnering a major crop of hooplah. It was possible by then to write a
                    whole book on a computer, but it didn't make Gibson a luddite to be using
                    a trusty selectric. Computers were expensive, and he was a novice writer
                    with only two or three story sales to his credit, who was thrust (by Lou
                    Aronica, iirc) into a first novel years before he thought he'd be ready.

                    ~~

                    For that matter, Gibson no punk, either. He was a hippie. He's a
                    generation older than I am, and punk was my era, not his.
                  • Damien Sullivan
                    ... And was done earlier and more plausibly by Vernor Vinge in True Names ... -xx- Damien X-)
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 1, 2010
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                      On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 04:41:47PM -0800, Simon wrote:

                      > whereas cyberspace supplied one of the dominant metaphors of this era.

                      And was done earlier and more plausibly by Vernor Vinge in "True Names"...

                      -xx- Damien X-)
                    • Paula Lieberman
                      ... From: Damien Sullivan To: Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 1:54 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM] [kencyr] Meatspace
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 1, 2010
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Damien Sullivan" <phoenix@...>
                        To: <kencyr@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 1:54 AM
                        Subject: Re: [SPAM] [kencyr] Meatspace


                        > On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 04:41:47PM -0800, Simon wrote:
                        >
                        >> whereas cyberspace supplied one of the dominant metaphors of this era.
                        >
                        > And was done earlier and more plausibly by Vernor Vinge in "True Names"...
                        >

                        And long before the was "Day Million" by Fred Pohl, which had what today
                        would be called cybersex in it....
                      • Simon
                        Thus spake Damien Sullivan ... There s no end of other candidates. Fred Saberhagen & Roger Zelazny s collab. effort Coils ticked all the same boxes, too, but
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 2, 2010
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                          Thus spake Damien Sullivan
                          > On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 04:41:47PM -0800, Simon wrote:
                          >
                          >> whereas cyberspace supplied one of the dominant metaphors of this era.
                          >
                          > And was done earlier and more plausibly by Vernor Vinge in "True Names"...
                          >
                          > -xx- Damien X-)

                          There's no end of other candidates. Fred Saberhagen & Roger Zelazny's
                          collab. effort Coils ticked all the same boxes, too, but it's Gibson who
                          caught the eye of the zeitgeist at the right moment. The Universe is
                          rarely fair, and only by accident.
                        • dpacicca
                          Thus spake Damien ... Cinnabar (am blanking on author, Edward something?) was another obscure sci-fi novel from the 70s that also had what I later realized
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 2, 2010
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                            Thus spake Damien
                            >
                            > And long before the was "Day Million" by Fred Pohl, which had what today
                            > would be called cybersex in it....
                            >

                            "Cinnabar" (am blanking on author, Edward something?) was another obscure sci-fi novel from the 70s that also had what I later realized was cybersex... and you can't forget Philip K. Dick, "Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch"

                            I could never really get into Gibson, I remember seeing "Neuromancer" as a new book at the public library, didn't really like it then. I tried to read it a few years ago, still was not digging it. I do like Neal Stephenson. "The Big U" was great, then he made an abrupt U-turn (pardon the pun) and went down the cyberpunk pathway. My sis sent me "Snow Crash" a couple of years ago and I liked the manic feel of it.

                            Donna
                          • David Brukman
                            ... Edward Bryant, I think. Sex with simulacra, if I recall.
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 2, 2010
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                              On 2010-04-02 06:44, dpacicca wrote:
                              > Thus spake Damien
                              >
                              >> And long before the was "Day Million" by Fred Pohl, which had what today
                              >> would be called cybersex in it....
                              >>
                              >>
                              > "Cinnabar" (am blanking on author, Edward something?) was another obscure sci-fi novel from the 70s that also had what I later realized was cybersex...
                              Edward Bryant, I think. Sex with simulacra, if I recall.
                            • Tony Zbaraschuk
                              ... That was referred to in Lewis _That Hideous Strength_ from 1945 (admittedly as something the Lunarians did, not any of the characters). Tony Z -- I try
                              Message 14 of 15 , Apr 2, 2010
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                                On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 10:55:26AM -0400, David Brukman wrote:
                                > On 2010-04-02 06:44, dpacicca wrote:
                                > > Thus spake Damien
                                > >
                                > >> And long before the was "Day Million" by Fred Pohl, which had what today
                                > >> would be called cybersex in it....
                                >
                                > > "Cinnabar" (am blanking on author, Edward something?) was another
                                > obscure sci-fi novel from the 70s that also had what I later realized
                                > was cybersex...
                                >
                                > Edward Bryant, I think. Sex with simulacra, if I recall.

                                That was referred to in Lewis' _That Hideous Strength_ from 1945
                                (admittedly as something the Lunarians did, not any of the
                                characters).


                                Tony Z

                                --
                                I try not to watch the Sunday political shows. If God had wanted me
                                to engage in such an activity, he would have provided me with a small
                                hammer with which I could repeatedly smack myself in the head once a
                                week for three hours.--Megan McArdle
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