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Re: About the slap....

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  • Daniel Davison
    Comment below ... she could ... enough to jolt ... released ... Kallystine s face. ... cadets didn t ... realized ... it, mitigate ... given any ... have an
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 12, 2005
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      Comment below

      --- In kencyr@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Lieberman" <paal@g...> wrote:

      > "Jame saw the blow coming... the cadets' grip held her fast, so
      she could
      > neither block nor dodge. It struck her numb left cheek, hard
      enough to jolt
      > back her head. She heard the others gasp. Belatedly, the cadets
      released
      > her and backed away, looking shocked."
      >
      > ======================================================
      >
      > The cadets secured Jame to prevent her from disappearing again with
      > Kallystine approaching. They weren't holding her for Kallystine to
      > slap--Kallystine didn't slap Jame until Jame asked about
      Kallystine's face.
      > That "Belatedly, the cadets released her" signifies that the
      cadets didn't
      > know that Kallystine was going to physically attack Jame--had they
      realized
      > Kallystine's intent they would done something to try to prevent
      it, mitigate
      > it, or get in the way and take the blow themselves I suspect,
      given any
      > oppportunity to think and react ahead of time. But they didn't
      have an
      > idea that Kallystine was going to physically attack Jame as she
      did. It was
      > all very sudden. They had grabbed onto Jame "in the manner of
      securing a
      > fugitive." It wasn't the manner of holding someone who was about
      to be
      > whipped or such.

      I have to disagree. The kendar had apprehended her, yes, and were
      holding her for that reason. But they kept holding her even as Jame
      sees (and presumeably they also see) the slap coming.

      What the kendar don't see or expect, and are shocked by, is the
      razor-ring. They would have prevented that if they could, I think.
      But an open-hand slap to the face would not have seemed like
      anything major to them.
    • Sam Elmore
      ... I would have to agree with this. It seemed to me that Kallystine s guards were used to here abusing her staff and servants so this was just another
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 13, 2005
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        On 12 Jun 2005, at 9:42 AM, Daniel Davison wrote:

        > Comment below
        >
        > --- In kencyr@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Lieberman" <paal@g...> wrote:
        >
        >> "Jame saw the blow coming... the cadets' grip held her fast, so
        > she could
        >> neither block nor dodge. It struck her numb left cheek, hard
        > enough to jolt
        >> back her head. She heard the others gasp. Belatedly, the cadets
        > released
        >> her and backed away, looking shocked."
        >>
        >> ======================================================
        >>
        >> The cadets secured Jame to prevent her from disappearing again with
        >> Kallystine approaching. They weren't holding her for Kallystine to
        >> slap--Kallystine didn't slap Jame until Jame asked about
        > Kallystine's face.
        >> That "Belatedly, the cadets released her" signifies that the
        > cadets didn't
        >> know that Kallystine was going to physically attack Jame--had they
        > realized
        >> Kallystine's intent they would done something to try to prevent
        > it, mitigate
        >> it, or get in the way and take the blow themselves I suspect,
        > given any
        >> oppportunity to think and react ahead of time. But they didn't
        > have an
        >> idea that Kallystine was going to physically attack Jame as she
        > did. It was
        >> all very sudden. They had grabbed onto Jame "in the manner of
        > securing a
        >> fugitive." It wasn't the manner of holding someone who was about
        > to be
        >> whipped or such.
        >
        > I have to disagree. The kendar had apprehended her, yes, and were
        > holding her for that reason. But they kept holding her even as Jame
        > sees (and presumeably they also see) the slap coming.
        >
        > What the kendar don't see or expect, and are shocked by, is the
        > razor-ring. They would have prevented that if they could, I think.
        > But an open-hand slap to the face would not have seemed like
        > anything major to them.


        I would have to agree with this. It seemed to me that Kallystine's
        guards were used to here 'abusing' her staff and servants so this was
        just another outburst. What no one had forseen was that she would have
        a razor-ring on her hand and it came as quite a shock to everyone who
        was present...
      • Johnson, Tamara
        Kally slapped the Highlord s sister. I do think they d find that VERY major. That d be like slapping prince Charles... ... razor-ring. They would have
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 14, 2005
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          Kally slapped the Highlord's sister. I do think they'd find that VERY major. That'd be like slapping prince Charles...

          ________________________________

          >What the kendar don't see or expect, and are shocked by, is the
          razor-ring. They would have prevented that if they could, I think.
          But an open-hand slap to the face would not have seemed like
          anything major to them.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Pran Mukherjee
          ... From: Johnson, Tamara ... major. That d be like slapping prince Charles... Except that to the Kencyr women aren t all that
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 14, 2005
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Johnson, Tamara" <tamaracjohnson@...>


            > Kally slapped the Highlord's sister. I do think they'd find that VERY
            major. That'd be like slapping prince Charles...

            Except that to the Kencyr women aren't all that important. And women
            fighting women even LESS important. They're a pretty sexist people.

            PM
          • Paula Lieberman
            ... From: Pran Mukherjee ... Er, the Kendar women are part of the military forces--there Brier and her mother had both been Caineron yondri
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 14, 2005
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Pran Mukherjee" <pran@...>


              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Johnson, Tamara" <tamaracjohnson@...>
              >
              >
              > > Kally slapped the Highlord's sister. I do think they'd find that VERY
              > major. That'd be like slapping prince Charles...
              >
              > Except that to the Kencyr women aren't all that important. And women
              > fighting women even LESS important. They're a pretty sexist people.

              Er, the Kendar women are part of the military forces--there Brier and her
              mother had both been Caineron yondri who were weapons-trained and part of
              the Kencyr Host, there's the female "border brat" randon cadet (can't
              remember her name), all the female Kendar warriors who were guarding
              Highborn women at Gothregor, there's Captain Hawthorne who was escorting the
              Brandan Matriarch about, there was the Kendar Captain who had to try to deal
              with Kallystine, there was the demon-taken-over Randir Captain....

              Highborn women were kept sequestered for several reasons, including:

              1. low numbers--there weren't all that many fertile Highborn women, it was
              noted in Godstalk that even a lot of half Kendar half-Highborn women were
              under the constraints of being used for dynastic contract marriages,

              2. high mortality rates in childbirth, making the numbers lower, and last
              but most important,

              3. the pernicious effects of Jamethiel Dream-weaver's fall from honor,
              which caused suspicion to be cast on all Highborn women and constraints to
              be put on them lest they repeat her soul-reaping/devastation/fall from honor
              to the Kencyrath.

              Caldane -generally- abused his Kendar, and taught his daughter Kallystine to
              do so, too (Seeker's Mask, the section where Kallystine is musing about
              treatment of servants). The failed randon cadet candidate at Restormir was
              male. For that matter, the Highborn boys at Restormir were also
              mistreated, in the scene that Jame peeked in on and saw the boys being
              dressed up in female servants' clothing and even dragged under the table for
              I presume unconsented to sexual acts.
            • J
              In addition to the abuse that Kallystine heaped on her Kendar, making them expect it from her and other Cainerons, I think they also weren t concerned about a
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 15, 2005
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                In addition to the abuse that Kallystine heaped on her Kendar, making them expect it from her and other Cainerons, I think they also weren't concerned about a slap because Jame's status was in question. Oh, there is no doubt that she is the Highlord's, but Tori neglected to really establish her as she needed to be established in the Women's World. It's not entirely his fault since there aren't any other pure Knorth women left, but the Matriachs make mention of the fact that they've had her to themselves for the whole winter. She is also not dressed as she should have been (wearing old dresses from storage with no refurbishing) and other things that all point to a lack of status. So, Jame in her effort to try to fit in and Tori in his effort to forget about her, put her at a disadvantage...leaving her vulnerable to a bitch like Kallystine. Plus, Tori's horrible mistake of nominally placing her in Kallystine's care.

                Paula Lieberman <paal@...> wrote:
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Pran Mukherjee" <pran@...>


                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Johnson, Tamara" <tamaracjohnson@...>
                >
                >
                > > Kally slapped the Highlord's sister. I do think they'd find that VERY
                > major. That'd be like slapping prince Charles...
                >
                > Except that to the Kencyr women aren't all that important. And women
                > fighting women even LESS important. They're a pretty sexist people.

                Er, the Kendar women are part of the military forces--there Brier and her
                mother had both been Caineron yondri who were weapons-trained and part of
                the Kencyr Host, there's the female "border brat" randon cadet (can't
                remember her name), all the female Kendar warriors who were guarding
                Highborn women at Gothregor, there's Captain Hawthorne who was escorting the
                Brandan Matriarch about, there was the Kendar Captain who had to try to deal
                with Kallystine, there was the demon-taken-over Randir Captain....

                Highborn women were kept sequestered for several reasons, including:

                1. low numbers--there weren't all that many fertile Highborn women, it was
                noted in Godstalk that even a lot of half Kendar half-Highborn women were
                under the constraints of being used for dynastic contract marriages,

                2. high mortality rates in childbirth, making the numbers lower, and last
                but most important,

                3. the pernicious effects of Jamethiel Dream-weaver's fall from honor,
                which caused suspicion to be cast on all Highborn women and constraints to
                be put on them lest they repeat her soul-reaping/devastation/fall from honor
                to the Kencyrath.

                Caldane -generally- abused his Kendar, and taught his daughter Kallystine to
                do so, too (Seeker's Mask, the section where Kallystine is musing about
                treatment of servants). The failed randon cadet candidate at Restormir was
                male. For that matter, the Highborn boys at Restormir were also
                mistreated, in the scene that Jame peeked in on and saw the boys being
                dressed up in female servants' clothing and even dragged under the table for
                I presume unconsented to sexual acts.





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              • Paula Lieberman
                ... From: J ... Jame s attitude towards Kendar took all sorts of different Kendar aback--the Knorth randon cadets were croggled at her
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 16, 2005
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "J" <deadslepr@...>


                  > In addition to the abuse that Kallystine heaped on her Kendar,
                  > making them expect it from her and other Cainerons,

                  Jame's attitude towards Kendar took all sorts of different Kendar aback--the
                  Knorth randon cadets were croggled at her refusal to be taken care of and
                  her insistence on exposing herself directly to danger and making -command-
                  decisions. Vant had a really big problem with Jame's refusal to be treated
                  like an expensive delicate porcelain figurine. Brier had problems, too, but
                  was more flexible. The border brat was the least bothered, having a
                  nurtured pugnacious and contrary attitude ("border brats, too independent by
                  far" -- Harn Grip-hard). Kendar were supposed to -protect- Highborn women,
                  including protecting Highborn women against their own inclinations....

                  > I think they also weren't concerned about a slap because Jame's
                  > status was in question.

                  Her status as Highborn wasn't in question. Her status as regards having any
                  personal influence/power was, that is, the Caineron Kendar obeyed
                  Kallystine, the question was obeying Kallystine versus obeying Jame--which
                  in the case of the Caineron Kendar assigned to Kallystine, Kallystine was
                  Tori's consort, Kallystine was Caineron and Jame belonged to to different
                  House, the Caineron Kendar had learned painfully and unpleasantly the
                  miserable consquences of not obeying Kallystine... Jame's position in law
                  was that she was subject to the authority of Kallystine in Kallystine's role
                  as consort to the Knorth Highlord--Jame's still a minor, among other
                  factors, while Kallystine as Tori's Consort, had the highest adoptive
                  position a woman could attain in the Knorth. The Knorth Matriarch were
                  there one would probably outrank the Highlord's Consort from another House,
                  but there is no Knorth Matriarch.

                  > Oh, there is no doubt that she is the Highlord's, but Tori neglected to
                  > really establish her as she needed to be established in the Women's World.

                  That's not the same issue really, though. Jame not having her own
                  guard/attendants meant that Jame didn't have any Kendar of her own to fend
                  for her and bulwark her. Note the role of Tori's Kendar guard, or the
                  absence of them at times, in protecting him from Caineron plots and such.
                  In some ways Kendar are like pawn on a chessboard, to get to the King and
                  Queen the opponent has to go through the pawns first. The pawns don't have
                  the power of other chess pieces, but get very much in the way of attacks and
                  protect the other chesspieces by their presence--and can be promoted up to
                  other chess pieces. The lack of Kendar assigned specifically to Jame,
                  rendered her vulnerable to Kallystine--Caineron Kendar were not going to
                  directly obey a Knorth other than MAYBE the Highlord, Caineron Kendar were
                  going to obey Caineron Highborn, particularly the vicious daughter of their
                  Lord--disobeying her meant pain and suffering and legally and by binding
                  they were under Kallystine's authority. As Highlord's Consort she was the
                  ranking Caineron/ranking Caineron Highborn in Gothregor. Her many-times
                  grandmother the Caineron Matriarch was at Restromir, and therefore not in
                  the vicinity to exercise or attempt to exercise any authority over
                  Kallystine.

                  > It's not entirely his fault since there aren't any other pure Knorth

                  There aren't any live Knorth Highborn women around at all other than Jame,
                  the part-Knorth Highborn women belong to other Houses--Brenwyr's at least a
                  quarter Knorth Highborn ancestry (her grandmother Kinzi was pure Knorth but
                  her other grandparents could have had Knorth blood in their ancestry) but
                  she's a Brandan Highborn, not a Knorth--note that Kirien's mother was a
                  Randir, but Kirien is seen as Jaran--of mixed blood, but Jaran nonetheless,
                  and not with any partiality or real concern for her Randir relatives.

                  > women left, but the Matriachs make mention of the fact that
                  > they've had her to themselves for the whole winter.

                  They weren't about to apprise Tori of his errors in failing to properly
                  establish her at Gothregor, they exploited the situation and opportunity and
                  didn't want the situation corrected.

                  > She is also not dressed as she should have been (wearing
                  > old dresses from storage with no refurbishing)

                  Actually I think it was that -one- dress, which had been preserved by
                  Brenwyr in memory of Aerulan. I got the idea that there wasn't -any- other
                  clothing that had been made available to Jame, just that -one- dress.

                  Before someone says "only one dress" I remember a conversation with Dave
                  Hartweel whos' a senior editor in the field of fantasy and science fiction
                  from years ago, regarding clothing--clothing back in the handmade handloomed
                  garment days, was often of much higher quality and structural integrity than
                  most clothing today, and was extremely durable, a lot of people had only one
                  or two outfits of clothing and what they had, lasted years--it wasn't a mass
                  production commodity marketplace, clothing took more time and effort to
                  produce and people took more time and care in producing it. Handloomed
                  cloth gets made with the weaving packed tightly together making for highly
                  durable cloth that -lasts-.

                  > and other things that all point to a lack of status.

                  It wasn't a lack of status, it was a lack of attendants and due respect and
                  the ability for force others to provide the respect that comes with the
                  trappings, the clothing, the appearance, and having loyal Kendar to effect
                  respect. Kallystine's Kendar would not have been able to get at Jame if
                  Jame had had a retinue of Kendar between Jame and the Caineron Kendar.

                  Jame's status was ambiguous because she lacked the outward trappings of
                  Knorth power and was -hiding- from everyone at Gothregor. Her innate Knorth
                  Highborn Shanir power was -felt- but it wasn't consciously being noticed at
                  Gothregor by the people there, until she had the berserker flare at the
                  start of Seeker's Mask. "Someone just had a berserker flare" noticed the
                  Matriarchs, but they thought it was merely a mock-berserker flare until the
                  sewing teacher stomped in in high dudgeon with the shredded embroidery. The
                  girls in the embroidery class had felt Jame's power when she flared. When
                  the sewing teacher came in complaining about Jame the Matriarchs suddenly
                  started to realize just how badly their had erred in dismissing Jame. On
                  the other hand, Jame had been doing her best to avoid their
                  attention--perhaps some of her Shanir powers might have been involved there
                  without her really consciously being aware of it? That is, if her powers
                  had been helping keep her hidden/anonymous/out of the direct attention of
                  the Matriarchs/screening who/what she was from them.... One of the
                  Matriarchs commented or thought that it hadn't occurred to the Matriarchs to
                  think that Jame might have berserker blood, but that with her ancestry it
                  was something that shouldn't have been unexpected... the question is, what
                  lulled them so completely about it? Yes, Jame was trying really hard to
                  stay out of their attention and was hiding under the veil and antique
                  clothing she'd been covered in, but shouldn't it have occurred to the
                  Matriarchs anyway that a purebred Knorth girl who was Ganth's daughter ought
                  to get a close look-over and not be assumed to be merely recalcitrant about
                  where she had been up to her sudden arrival in the Riverland?

                  > So, Jame in her effort to try to fit in and Tori in his effort to
                  > forget about her, put her at a disadvantage...leaving her
                  > vulnerable to a bitch like Kallystine.

                  The Matriarchs put Jame into Kallystine's "care" with malice aforethought,
                  they had questions about where Jame had sprung up from and let Kallystine
                  loose, expecting Kallystine to use the brute force approach at breaking Jame
                  into coughing up information. They badly miscalculated, making lots of bad
                  assumptions or perhaps not making assumptions even, regarding -Jame- as
                  opposed to the information and hearsay they had about Jame.

                  For one thing, they were taking into account Tori's quietness and subtlety
                  and dismissing it--when Tori showed up they realized "oops"-- Yes, Tori was
                  the Highlord. Yes, Tori had survived all the plots of the past several
                  years still intact mind and body and in the position of Highlord--his father
                  had been deposed from and stripped of the position and the power of the
                  position, but Tori who wasn't raised in the Riverland, had risen to command
                  troops in the Southern Host and gain the trust and loyalty of Kendar and
                  then after surviving the disaster at Urakarn announced himself as Ganth's
                  son and the heir to the leadership of the entire Kencyrath--and made people
                  believe and accept and confirm him as the Highlord. But, the Matriarch
                  still didn't accord him sufficient attention and consideration. They
                  mistreated Jamethiel without really taking into account what Tori might do
                  once he found out--yes, Tori was apparently not paying attention and didn't
                  want apparently to pay attention, but the Matriarchs had set their plot
                  taking Jame out of the jurisdiction of Tori's steward Rowan and putting her
                  into Kallystine's authority without thinking through how the Highlord would
                  see it when/in the event he came back to Gothregor and expected to see his
                  sister being watched over by Rowan and the rest of Tori's Kendar....


                  > Plus, Tori's horrible mistake of nominally placing her in Kallystine's
                  care.

                  Tori didn't, he sent her to Gothregor expecting that she would be surrounded
                  by Rowan and all those Knorth Kendar who were personally pledged to Tori.
                  He wasn't thinking at all about the proper provisioning for a Highborn woman
                  including suitable attendants, clothing, accessories, personal guards, etc.,
                  he sent her off to his stronghold forgetting or not realizing that nearly
                  the entirety of the female Highborn population of the Kencyrath's major
                  Houses, was in attendance there, with the Matriarchs who rules the Women's
                  World present also, and that there was not one person in the entire pile who
                  had attended a Knorth Highborn woman as servant or assistant since the night
                  of the massacre of the Knorth women long ago. Tori's only familiarity with
                  the Women's World was from cohabitation, as little as possible of it, with
                  Kallystine and with his meetings with the Matriarchs--having not grown up in
                  the Riverland and having had experience only with the few years that his
                  mother and sister, who weren't in Riverland Highborn women seculsion that
                  was custom in the Riverland, had been in residence at North Kenshold. He
                  had no knowledge and no awareness of what proper accouterments and train
                  were appropriate for and essential to a Highborn Knorth women's household.
                  Because Tori did not provide the necessary Customary attendants and clothing
                  etc., the Matriarchs removed Jame from the "improper" situation and placed
                  her into a a more "proper" situation of being attached to the household of
                  Tori's Consort, Kallystine, and provided Jame Highborn costuming that
                  because it had been the attire of a proper Highborn Knorth young woman, was
                  de facto suitable clothing for a young Knorth Highborn woman to wear. The
                  Matriarchs has paid full due deference to Law and Custom in removing Jame
                  from Rowan's custody and placing her in Kallystine's custody, under the
                  guise of providing Jame with the situation appropriate to a Highborn woman
                  of the highest bloodlines.

                  Tori's failures were in the area of sending Jame off to Gothregor so he
                  wouldn't have to deal with her, he thought he was getting rid of a problem
                  by sending his problem to his stronghold. He forgot completely about the
                  existence of the Women's World, the Matriarchs, Kallystine, and his lack of
                  knowledge about the lives of Highborn women and their sequestering. He
                  compounded the failures by not following up on the situation, of assuming
                  that he has shoved the problem out of his baliwick and was successfully
                  dealing with the situation by ignoring it and not thinking about it, he'd
                  dealt with Jame by sending her off to Gothregor with hundreds of miles of
                  distance between, and no importuning Lords there demanding her contract.
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