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Character Ages

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  • Assaf Ravid
    Hi everyone! 1st of all, I m very happy to discover someplace over the net, where the works of PCH can be discussed. One of the major problems of PCH fans is
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 2, 2000
      Hi everyone!

      1st of all, I'm very happy to discover someplace over the net, where
      the works of PCH can be discussed. One of the major problems of PCH
      fans is that her works are, ahem, not wildly known.

      2nd, regarding some discussion I have with some fellow fans, does
      anybody know the ages of the major characters (esp. Jame & Tori) and
      what are the ages for the major general "marks" in a Highborn &
      Kenders (Puberty, Adulthood, Marrige, Deat, etc.)?

      We have some discussion regarding the character physical and
      psychological ages, esp. regarding the characters social altitudes.


      Input will be much appriciated.
    • kencyr@n-link.com
      ... where ... and ... dulthood. hmmm...offhand I would say that Jame starts out (of the haunted lands) in her late teens and leaves tai-tasitgon about her 19th
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 2, 2000
        --- In kencyr@egroups.com, "Assaf Ravid" <aravid@a...> wrote:
        > Hi everyone!
        >
        > 1st of all, I'm very happy to discover someplace over the net,
        where
        > the works of PCH can be discussed. One of the major problems of PCH
        > fans is that her works are, ahem, not wildly known.
        >
        > 2nd, regarding some discussion I have with some fellow fans, does
        > anybody know the ages of the major characters (esp. Jame & Tori)
        and
        > what are the ages for the major general "marks" in a Highborn &
        > Kenders (Puberty, Adulthood, Marrige, Deat, etc.)?
        dulthood.


        hmmm...offhand I would say that Jame starts out (of the haunted
        lands) in her late teens and leaves tai-tasitgon about her 19th year.
        tori is definitely in his mid(late) twenties.
        as far as the marks go the highborn seem to regard the end of puberty
        as a general rule it seems that as soon as a highborn woman is
        capable of having children without a major risk to health she is "put
        on the market" for a partner.
        death, it seems, takes a LONG time coupla hundred years given to the
        remarks
        BTW what would happen to a person who has given their shadow to
        someone and is trying to die of old age? Bane seems to lend to the
        idea that they simply can't die in that case.....

        > We have some discussion regarding the character physical and
        > psychological ages, esp. regarding the characters social altitudes.
        >

        well (once again) hre aer some random questions I posted some time
        ago - see if you and your friends are willing to chew on them...

        1) who thinks the try-ridan will survive the final battle? if not all
        then
        who will the survivors be?

        2) what form will the final battle take place (and where?)

        3) will the Kencyrath itself survive? or will it splinter back to
        their
        orgins (assuming they still exist) and original lives (IE the kendar
        will no
        longer be bonded to the highborn)?

        4) what will happen to the consumed worlds in the Chain?

        5) what will the Arrin-ken do next? now that they are known to still
        be
        out
        there will they be brought back into the fold or have they simply
        given
        up
        and gone independant?
        (reason for this one is that they have been out of current events for
        10000
        years or so)note that independant does not mean they have lost 3 faces
        bond
        to the kencyrath, just they really don't care anymore - they have been
        around since the start and some likely remember the days before they
        got
        shainghied into this current job.




        > Input will be much appriciated.
      • phoenix@UGCS.CALTECH.EDU
        ... Kencyr come of age at 27. Torisen came of age about three years ago, so is 30. His twin sister Jame lost ten years on him, and thus is 20. Of course,
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 2, 2000
          "Assaf Ravid" <aravid@...> wrote:

          > 2nd, regarding some discussion I have with some fellow fans, does
          > anybody know the ages of the major characters (esp. Jame & Tori) and
          > what are the ages for the major general "marks" in a Highborn &
          > Kenders (Puberty, Adulthood, Marrige, Deat, etc.)?

          Kencyr come of age at 27. Torisen came of age about three years ago, so is
          30. His twin sister Jame lost ten years on him, and thus is 20. Of course,
          she spent more than a year in Tai-Tastigon, so I'm not sure if they're 20/30
          by the end of Seeker's Mask, or 21/31.

          Marriage... Lyra was given as consort to Odalian in her early teens,
          apparently. Not allowed to have kids, but she thought it was a possibility if
          Father was pleased. I think Jame calls her 14, so puberty seems to
          potentially begin at a normal age. But the Matriarchs expect Jame to be gawky
          and colt-like at her age, but to blossom into beauty.

          Ah, checked the text. Jame thinks of Lyra as "maybe sixteen" in Seeker's
          Mask, and at the beginning of _Dark_ Tori's been Highlord for three years. So
          I'll say 20/30.

          Hey, that means Jame fled the Master's House right when Torisen came to power.

          Also that Gerridon tried wedding Jame when she was 17.

          Death by old age seems to be in the 120-150 range, or more.

          Marcarn, a Kendar, is considered middle-aged in his 90s.

          -xx- Damien X-)
        • Assaf Ravid
          ... Hmm, Good one - I think bane is correct in that regard - however, see what happend to some immortal knorth (you know who I m speaking about...) and
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 2, 2000
            --- In kencyr@egroups.com, kencyr@n... wrote:
            > BTW what would happen to a person who has given their shadow to
            > someone and is trying to die of old age? Bane seems to lend to the
            > idea that they simply can't die in that case.....

            Hmm, Good one - I think bane is correct in that regard - however, see
            what happend to some "immortal" knorth (you know who I'm speaking
            about...) and recall the greek legend about one of the goddesses
            lover - she fed him ambrosia, giving him eternal life, but forget to
            give him nectar, giving him eternal youth (or was it the otherway
            around) - he aged and shrinked aithout being able to die, until the
            gods have marcy and turned him into a cricket...

            >
            > well (once again) hre aer some random questions I posted some time
            > ago - see if you and your friends are willing to chew on them...
            >
            > 1) who thinks the try-ridan will survive the final battle? if not
            all
            > then
            > who will the survivors be?


            We don't have enough information regarding the try-ridan itself - is
            it a gestalt? a single composed being with three face?

            > 2) what form will the final battle take place (and where?)

            My guess is a very large scale battle (Tri-Ridan vs. the Master?) on
            some threshworld.


            > 3) will the Kencyrath itself survive? or will it splinter back to
            > their
            > orgins (assuming they still exist) and original lives (IE the kendar
            > will no
            > longer be bonded to the highborn)?

            A) depends on how good they will be in the battle
            B) Nope. I figure they will simply have to continue their lives like
            they do in the Riverlands.

            > 4) what will happen to the consumed worlds in the Chain?

            Probably will have to be reclaimed.

            > 5) what will the Arrin-ken do next? now that they are known to
            still

            Notice that they did return in a way. As discussion of this point
            will contain spoilers I will leave in to a seperate thread
            regarding "What is Jame?"
          • phoenix@UGCS.CALTECH.EDU
            ... I d say arrives at 19, and leave at 20. Tori s 30. ... Yeah. ... Terribend is a better example. Bane was young, and with fire, water and his name to kill
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 2, 2000
              > hmmm...offhand I would say that Jame starts out (of the haunted
              > lands) in her late teens and leaves tai-tasitgon about her 19th year.
              > tori is definitely in his mid(late) twenties.

              I'd say arrives at 19, and leave at 20. Tori's 30.

              > as a general rule it seems that as soon as a highborn woman is
              > capable of having children without a major risk to health she is "put
              > on the market" for a partner.

              Yeah.

              > BTW what would happen to a person who has given their shadow to
              > someone and is trying to die of old age? Bane seems to lend to the
              > idea that they simply can't die in that case.....

              Terribend is a better example. Bane was young, and with fire, water and his
              name to kill the Lower Town Demon and release his soul I think he should be
              dead. It's the bloodbinding keeping him going now. (That is, the
              bloodbinding working with the loose nature of his soul when he died.)

              Bender's 1500 years old, though. A walking withered corpse, it seems.

              I'm still not sure as to how Jamethiel gained immortality. Her endless
              Senetha?

              > well (once again) hre aer some random questions I posted some time
              > ago - see if you and your friends are willing to chew on them...

              I don't answer your questions because there's no basis for answers to them.
              Nothing I've read gives me any idea what Hodgell has in mind for the end, and
              I have no good ideas myself, and I'm _good_ at wacky ideas. So I stick to
              shorter term stuff, like challenging the nature of the God, and blaming
              Perimal Darkling on the Builders.

              > (reason for this one is that they have been out of current events for 10000
              > years or so)note that independant does not mean they have lost 3 faces

              2000-3000 years; I think I've seen both numbers in the texts. The Kencyrath
              has been on Rathilien for only 3000 years.

              > to the kencyrath, just they really don't care anymore - they have been
              > around since the start and some likely remember the days before they got
              > shainghied into this current job.

              One of my wacky ideas is that the God was[1] a fraud perpetrated by the
              Arrin-ken and the Builders. No doubt the Arrin-ken would have been disturbed
              to find that their partners had bit it[2].

              [1] 'was': He didn't show up 30 millennia ago because he didn't exist then.
              But the Kencyrath has believed in him for that long, since then. Remember
              the lesson of Tai-Tastigon...

              [2] Not nearly as disturbed as they and Gerridon will be when they find that
              the God exists after all... see [1].

              -xx- Damien X-)
            • Tomer Katz
              ... the ... water and his ... should be ... died.) ... seems. Bender and his entier generation where part of the fall, that makes them about 2000-3000 years
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 4, 2000
                --- In kencyr@egroups.com, phoenix@U... wrote:
                > > BTW what would happen to a person who has given their shadow to
                > > someone and is trying to die of old age? Bane seems to lend to
                the
                > > idea that they simply can't die in that case.....
                >
                > Terribend is a better example. Bane was young, and with fire,
                water and his
                > name to kill the Lower Town Demon and release his soul I think he
                should be
                > dead. It's the bloodbinding keeping him going now. (That is, the
                > bloodbinding working with the loose nature of his soul when he
                died.)
                >
                > Bender's 1500 years old, though. A walking withered corpse, it
                seems.

                Bender and his entier generation where part of the fall, that makes
                them about 2000-3000 years old at Rathillien reconing How old is he
                in subjective time is imposibule to say becuse of the long stay in
                Primel Darkling in which time moves in mistirios ways.

                As far as I can tell none of the changers have ever died. they my
                have come close but resuraction is still imposibule.
                (if the Master culd have had somone raised from the dead then he
                whuldent have sent Jametiel (sr) to pic up Keral befor Immalai could
                kill him.)

                As for Bane... he is just as dead as Aerulan or Mark's sister he is a
                ghost all we see in SM is his shadow more menevulent and powerful
                then most ghosts we'v seen till now but still a ghost.

                > I'm still not sure as to how Jamethiel gained immortality. Her
                endless
                > Senetha?
                >
                As far as I can see she uses the same methode as Gerridon consuming
                the souls thet she hase ripped. (see DOTM).


                > [1] 'was': He didn't show up 30 millennia ago because he didn't
                exist then.
                > But the Kencyrath has believed in him for that long, since then.
                Remember
                > the lesson of Tai-Tastigon...
                So dose this means that the tempels Tap Primal Darkling for their
                energy surce? wher dos the power come from under your assumption?

                Tomer Katz
                ISRAEL
              • phoenix@UGCS.CALTECH.EDU
                ... 3000. I was assuming 50% discount, given Jame s experience. Tirandys implied that he d been around for at least a millennium, so I took the liberty of
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 4, 2000
                  "Tomer Katz" <t_catz@...> wrote:

                  > > Bender's 1500 years old, though. A walking withered corpse, it seems.
                  > Bender and his entier generation where part of the fall, that makes
                  > them about 2000-3000 years old at Rathillien reconing How old is he

                  3000. I was assuming 50% discount, given Jame's experience. Tirandys implied
                  that he'd been around for at least a millennium, so I took the liberty of
                  assuming every one else has too. Possibly Jamethiel went back far enough that
                  she hasn't hit Kencyr menopause, but we don't know if Kencyr women even have
                  menopause, so that's stretching.

                  > As far as I can see she uses the same methode as Gerridon consuming
                  > the souls thet she hase ripped. (see DOTM).

                  I'd actually not thought of that. I don't remember any evidence for it, but
                  it has some logic. Although Gerridon is shrouded in stolen souls, while
                  Jamethiel is this great big glowing thing who can fly really damn fast, and
                  looks pretty old beneath her big glow, so I'm inclined to believe separate
                  mechanisms are at work.

                  > > [1] 'was': He didn't show up 30 millennia ago because he didn't exist then.
                  > > But the Kencyrath has believed in him for that long, since then. Remember
                  > > the lesson of Tai-Tastigon...
                  > So dose this means that the tempels Tap Primal Darkling for their
                  > energy surce? wher dos the power come from under your assumption?

                  *shrug*. Maybe Perimal Darkling. Maybe nowhere else, and the temples are the
                  magical equivalent of nuclear reactors, complete with radiation. Imagine a
                  12th century culture following the footsteps of a 22nd century culture; the
                  Kencyrath, our source of information, aren't likely to tell us anything useful
                  about the artifacts of the latter.

                  But I just thought of something different: perhaps there's some cosmic
                  elemental force running through all the worlds, which manifests in stuff like
                  the Four and Old Pantheon of Rathillien. But the Builders steal or divert
                  this, and when the Kencyrath comes the Old Gods are dead, converted into
                  Builder-energy through the temples. If Rathillien really is a more 'alive'
                  world than the Kencyrath is used to, this is why: the ninth temple was never
                  completed, so the Four were weakened (note that the Pantheons changed 3000
                  years ago) but not destroyed.

                  Possibly a world untapped by the Builders has nothing to fear from Perimal
                  Darkling, and it's the magical mining of the Builders which weakens a world
                  and steals its natural protection from the shadows.

                  -xx- Damien X-)
                • arkieokie2004
                  ... or divert ... converted into ... more alive ... was never ... Possibly a world untapped by the Builders has nothing to fear from Perimal ... weakens a
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 19, 2004
                    > > the Four and Old Pantheon of Rathillien. But the Builders steal
                    or divert
                    > this, and when the Kencyrath comes the Old Gods are dead,
                    converted into
                    > Builder-energy through the temples. If Rathillien really is a
                    more 'alive'
                    > world than the Kencyrath is used to, this is why: the ninth temple
                    was never
                    > completed, so the Four were weakened (note that the Pantheons >
                    Possibly a world untapped by the Builders has nothing to fear from
                    Perimal
                    > Darkling, and it's the magical mining of the Builders which
                    weakens a world
                    > and steals its natural protection from the shadows.
                    >
                    > -xx- Damien X-)

                    Hi,
                    was just reading through the archives and found this. In the
                    Seeker's mask the Earthmother makes a comment about the kencyrath
                    being "so diffent from us.." This and several other tidbits would
                    support your theory that the builders kill or convert the resident
                    gods or powers into the 3-faced god. However I must strongly
                    disagree with the second half that says that the builders or the
                    kencyrath weaken a world. Each world that they enter is a "threshold
                    world" into that chain? solar system? galaxy? and overlaps the rest
                    of the nearby worlds so that what happens on one affects the rest.
                    Sort of a domino effect. Anywho All three books make reference to
                    the fact that weak areas are caused by the withdrawl of the
                    Kencyrath. For example the haunted lands are rotten or weakened
                    because there are no defenders left. Furthermore the boderkeeps are
                    praised as being between the main host and the anciet enemy. At one
                    point something is even said about the deterioation of Rathilian
                    since the Kencyrath have moved inland to the Riverland and abandond
                    the majority of the border keeps.

                    h
                  • Damien Sullivan
                    ... But Seeker s Mask also implied that Rathillien had its own power to resist the shadows; the tainted areas are where the world is thinnest , vs. the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 19, 2004
                      On Mon, Apr 19, 2004 at 07:03:41PM -0000, arkieokie2004 wrote:

                      > gods or powers into the 3-faced god. However I must strongly
                      > disagree with the second half that says that the builders or the
                      > kencyrath weaken a world. Each world that they enter is a "threshold
                      > world" into that chain? solar system? galaxy? and overlaps the rest
                      > of the nearby worlds so that what happens on one affects the rest.
                      > Sort of a domino effect. Anywho All three books make reference to

                      But Seeker's Mask also implied that Rathillien had its own power to resist the
                      shadows; the tainted areas are where the world is "thinnest", vs. the
                      thickness of the Anarchies.

                      > the fact that weak areas are caused by the withdrawl of the
                      > Kencyrath. For example the haunted lands are rotten or weakened
                      > because there are no defenders left. Furthermore the boderkeeps are

                      But maybe a world untouched by the Builders, with undamaged integrity, would
                      be fully immune to the shadows, with the Kencyr defenses making up for the
                      defenses destroyed by the Builder temples.

                      Remember, it seems like Rathillien has lasted 10x longer than the average,
                      despite the Kencyrath being 1/3 of its strength to start with and
                      diminishing/withdrawing from there. Something's really weird here...

                      For that matter, if we take the afterword to be more "what the Kencyr think"
                      than "what is really going on", the threshold world stuff might be bunk too;
                      maybe the shadows are coming through openings caused by the Builders and
                      Kencyrath passing through...

                      I don't know what Pat's real ideas are, but I think mine make sense. :)

                      -xx- Damien X-)
                    • David Brukman
                      No, no, no! Conspiracy theories hurt my brain! I am sure Pat has many dark ideas, but saying everything you know is just a cover story would be unfair. --
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 23 9:43 PM
                        No, no, no! Conspiracy theories hurt my brain!
                        I am sure Pat has many dark ideas, but saying
                        "everything you know is just a cover story"
                        would be unfair.
                        --
                        david, thinking of ways to increase p.c.'s output

                        --- In kencyr@yahoogroups.com, Damien Sullivan <phoenix@U...> wrote:
                        . . .
                        > For that matter, if we take the afterword to be more "what the
                        Kencyr think"
                        > than "what is really going on", the threshold world stuff might be
                        bunk too;
                        > maybe the shadows are coming through openings caused by the
                        Builders and
                        > Kencyrath passing through...
                        >
                        > I don't know what Pat's real ideas are, but I think mine make
                        sense.
                      • Damien Sullivan
                        ... But what we know so far doesn t make sense, or has implausible coincidences. Though Gerridon being able to strike at the Builders can cause their fall
                        Message 11 of 11 , May 25 8:46 AM
                          On Mon, May 24, 2004 at 04:43:56AM -0000, David Brukman wrote:
                          > No, no, no! Conspiracy theories hurt my brain! I am sure Pat has many dark
                          > ideas, but saying "everything you know is just a cover story" would be
                          > unfair.

                          But what we know so far doesn't make sense, or has implausible coincidences.

                          Though Gerridon being able to strike at the Builders can cause their fall
                          would solve one problem. Still, what we know *includes* a major upheaval in
                          Rathillien pantheons right when the Builders were building. They've got to be
                          responsible for something, even if not a major hoax.

                          -xx- Damien X-)
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