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Disappointed with Agile 2009 stage options

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  • David J Anderson
    So Agile 2009 is off and running... I ve been checking out the different stages and wondering what to submit. Look here...
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 2, 2008
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      So Agile 2009 is off and running...

      I've been checking out the different stages and wondering what to
      submit. Look here... http://agile2009.agilealliance.org/participate.html

      I will submit something to the main stage and I have a good idea what
      that will be. But I also wanted to submit either (a) something about
      my emerging strategically aligned prioritization scheme that guys such
      as Karl have adopted - the commodity, differentiator, spoiler, cost
      saver model or (b) something on establishing classes of service in a
      kanban system using cost of delay functions.

      I'm actually really struggling to see where any kanban sessions will
      go other than perhaps some stuff on tooling in the Tools for Agility
      stage.

      Meanwhile, I find myself very disappointed with the stage options.
      There seems to be a lack of range and over duplication. What, for
      example, is the difference between Agile Adoption and Agile &
      Organizational Culture? The abstract for the latter suggests that you
      should submit "if you have had challenges adopting agile". Hmmm.

      And what is the difference between Agile Product Management and
      Customers & Business Value?

      It appears looking from the outside that stage submissions were
      considered on individual merit without any portfolio management level
      coordination to avoid duplication.

      Chris Matts, you are normally the voice of reason on these things?
      What is happening? Or perhaps I'll just ask Rachel at XTC tonight? ;-)

      If anyone would like to suggest the best stage to submit kanban
      proposals, I am sure there are several folks on this list who would
      appreciate the guidance.

      David
      http://www.agilemanagement.net/
    • Karl Scotland
      2008/12/2 David J Anderson ... I had the same reaction - no Breaking Acts or Questioning Agile. I wondered whether Manifesting
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 2, 2008
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        2008/12/2 David J Anderson <netherby_uk@...>

        If anyone would like to suggest the best stage to submit kanban
        proposals, I am sure there are several folks on this list who would
        appreciate the guidance.

        I had the same reaction - no Breaking Acts or Questioning Agile.

        I wondered whether Manifesting Agility, or the Organisation Culture was the best place,

        Karl 
        --
        Karl Scotland
        Agile Coach
        http://availagility.wordpress.com/
      • chris.matts@gmail.com
        voice of reason = frothy mouthed fanatic? The language this group uses is most strange. I suggest the telliing our stories for a bunch of people, possibly
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 2, 2008
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          voice of reason = frothy mouthed fanatic? The language this group uses is most strange.

          I suggest the "telliing our stories" for a bunch of people, possibly pairing, to show experience with kanban.

          Also "new to agile" stage to introduce Kanban and another for "real option prioritisation".

          "Distributed Agile" for how you scale and cut over multiple sites.

          "Agile product management" for kanban and release management ( not up-front ).

          ------------------


          From: "David J Anderson"
          Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:28:32 -0000
          To: <kanbandev@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [kanbandev] Disappointed with Agile 2009 stage options

          So Agile 2009 is off and running...

          I've been checking out the different stages and wondering what to
          submit. Look here... http://agile2009. agilealliance. org/participate. html

          I will submit something to the main stage and I have a good idea what
          that will be. But I also wanted to submit either (a) something about
          my emerging strategically aligned prioritization scheme that guys such
          as Karl have adopted - the commodity, differentiator, spoiler, cost
          saver model or (b) something on establishing classes of service in a
          kanban system using cost of delay functions.

          I'm actually really struggling to see where any kanban sessions will
          go other than perhaps some stuff on tooling in the Tools for Agility
          stage.

          Meanwhile, I find myself very disappointed with the stage options.
          There seems to be a lack of range and over duplication. What, for
          example, is the difference between Agile Adoption and Agile &
          Organizational Culture? The abstract for the latter suggests that you
          should submit "if you have had challenges adopting agile". Hmmm.

          And what is the difference between Agile Product Management and
          Customers & Business Value?

          It appears looking from the outside that stage submissions were
          considered on individual merit without any portfolio management level
          coordination to avoid duplication.

          Chris Matts, you are normally the voice of reason on these things?
          What is happening? Or perhaps I'll just ask Rachel at XTC tonight? ;-)

          If anyone would like to suggest the best stage to submit kanban
          proposals, I am sure there are several folks on this list who would
          appreciate the guidance.

          David
          http://www.agileman agement.net/

        • Joshua Kerievsky
          David -- I d suggest that you email the top folks involved in the organization of the conference this year. Perhaps you can help to consolidate and improve
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 2, 2008
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            David -- I'd suggest that you email the top folks involved in the organization of the conference this year.  Perhaps you can help to consolidate and improve the number of stages -- it is still early enough to make these changes.    

            I think a Breaking Acts stage is essential.  Maybe they just need some folks to step up to be producers of it?

            best
            jk

            On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 5:28 AM, David J Anderson <netherby_uk@...> wrote:
            So Agile 2009 is off and running...

            I've been checking out the different stages and wondering what to
            submit. Look here... http://agile2009.agilealliance.org/participate.html

            I will submit something to the main stage and I have a good idea what
            that will be. But I also wanted to submit either (a) something about
            my emerging strategically aligned prioritization scheme that guys such
            as Karl have adopted - the commodity, differentiator, spoiler, cost
            saver model or (b) something on establishing classes of service in a
            kanban system using cost of delay functions.

            I'm actually really struggling to see where any kanban sessions will
            go other than perhaps some stuff on tooling in the Tools for Agility
            stage.

            Meanwhile, I find myself very disappointed with the stage options.
            There seems to be a lack of range and over duplication. What, for
            example, is the difference between Agile Adoption and Agile &
            Organizational Culture? The abstract for the latter suggests that you
            should submit "if you have had challenges adopting agile". Hmmm.

            And what is the difference between Agile Product Management and
            Customers & Business Value?

            It appears looking from the outside that stage submissions were
            considered on individual merit without any portfolio management level
            coordination to avoid duplication.

            Chris Matts, you are normally the voice of reason on these things?
            What is happening? Or perhaps I'll just ask Rachel at XTC tonight? ;-)

            If anyone would like to suggest the best stage to submit kanban
            proposals, I am sure there are several folks on this list who would
            appreciate the guidance.

            David
            http://www.agilemanagement.net/


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            --
            best regards,
            jk

            Industrial Logic, Inc.
            Joshua Kerievsky
            Founder, Extreme Programmer & Coach
            http://industriallogic.com
            866-540-8336 (toll free)
            510-540-8336 (phone)
            Berkeley, California

            Learn Code Smells, Refactoring and TDD at http://industriallogic.com/elearning
          • Mark Levison
            If the breaking acts stage re-emerges I would be happy to help (a bit). Cheers Mark On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Joshua Kerievsky ... -- Cheers Mark
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 2, 2008
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              If the breaking acts stage re-emerges I would be happy to help (a bit).

              Cheers
              Mark

              On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Joshua Kerievsky <jlk@...> wrote:

              David -- I'd suggest that you email the top folks involved in the organization of the conference this year.  Perhaps you can help to consolidate and improve the number of stages -- it is still early enough to make these changes.    

              I think a Breaking Acts stage is essential.  Maybe they just need some folks to step up to be producers of it?

              best
              jk

              On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 5:28 AM, David J Anderson <netherby_uk@...> wrote:
              So Agile 2009 is off and running...

              I've been checking out the different stages and wondering what to
              submit. Look here... http://agile2009.agilealliance.org/participate.html

              I will submit something to the main stage and I have a good idea what
              that will be. But I also wanted to submit either (a) something about
              my emerging strategically aligned prioritization scheme that guys such
              as Karl have adopted - the commodity, differentiator, spoiler, cost
              saver model or (b) something on establishing classes of service in a
              kanban system using cost of delay functions.

              I'm actually really struggling to see where any kanban sessions will
              go other than perhaps some stuff on tooling in the Tools for Agility
              stage.

              Meanwhile, I find myself very disappointed with the stage options.
              There seems to be a lack of range and over duplication. What, for
              example, is the difference between Agile Adoption and Agile &
              Organizational Culture? The abstract for the latter suggests that you
              should submit "if you have had challenges adopting agile". Hmmm.

              And what is the difference between Agile Product Management and
              Customers & Business Value?

              It appears looking from the outside that stage submissions were
              considered on individual merit without any portfolio management level
              coordination to avoid duplication.

              Chris Matts, you are normally the voice of reason on these things?
              What is happening? Or perhaps I'll just ask Rachel at XTC tonight? ;-)

              If anyone would like to suggest the best stage to submit kanban
              proposals, I am sure there are several folks on this list who would
              appreciate the guidance.

              David
              http://www.agilemanagement.net/


              ------------------------------------

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                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kanbandev/

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              --
              best regards,
              jk

              Industrial Logic, Inc.
              Joshua Kerievsky
              Founder, Extreme Programmer & Coach
              http://industriallogic.com
              866-540-8336 (toll free)
              510-540-8336 (phone)
              Berkeley, California

              Learn Code Smells, Refactoring and TDD at http://industriallogic.com/elearning



              --
              Cheers
              Mark Levison
              Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
              Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:  http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
              Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
            • David J Anderson
              I agree! If there is no breaking acts stage, what is the community doing to encourage innovation? I will bring it up at XTC in London this evening. Hopefully
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 2, 2008
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                I agree! If there is no "breaking acts" stage, what is the community
                doing to encourage innovation?

                I will bring it up at XTC in London this evening. Hopefully Rachel
                will be there.

                David

                --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, "Joshua Kerievsky" <jlk@...> wrote:
                >
                > David -- I'd suggest that you email the top folks involved in the
                > organization of the conference this year. Perhaps you can help to
                > consolidate and improve the number of stages -- it is still early
                enough to
                > make these changes.
                >
                > I think a Breaking Acts stage is essential. Maybe they just need
                some folks
                > to step up to be producers of it?
                >
                > best
                > jk
                >
                > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 5:28 AM, David J Anderson <netherby_uk@...>wrote:
                >
                > > So Agile 2009 is off and running...
                > >
                > > I've been checking out the different stages and wondering what to
                > > submit. Look here...
                http://agile2009.agilealliance.org/participate.html
                > >
                > > I will submit something to the main stage and I have a good idea what
                > > that will be. But I also wanted to submit either (a) something about
                > > my emerging strategically aligned prioritization scheme that guys such
                > > as Karl have adopted - the commodity, differentiator, spoiler, cost
                > > saver model or (b) something on establishing classes of service in a
                > > kanban system using cost of delay functions.
                > >
                > > I'm actually really struggling to see where any kanban sessions will
                > > go other than perhaps some stuff on tooling in the Tools for Agility
                > > stage.
                > >
                > > Meanwhile, I find myself very disappointed with the stage options.
                > > There seems to be a lack of range and over duplication. What, for
                > > example, is the difference between Agile Adoption and Agile &
                > > Organizational Culture? The abstract for the latter suggests that you
                > > should submit "if you have had challenges adopting agile". Hmmm.
                > >
                > > And what is the difference between Agile Product Management and
                > > Customers & Business Value?
                > >
                > > It appears looking from the outside that stage submissions were
                > > considered on individual merit without any portfolio management level
                > > coordination to avoid duplication.
                > >
                > > Chris Matts, you are normally the voice of reason on these things?
                > > What is happening? Or perhaps I'll just ask Rachel at XTC tonight? ;-)
                > >
                > > If anyone would like to suggest the best stage to submit kanban
                > > proposals, I am sure there are several folks on this list who would
                > > appreciate the guidance.
                > >
                > > David
                > > http://www.agilemanagement.net/
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > --
                > best regards,
                > jk
                >
                > Industrial Logic, Inc.
                > Joshua Kerievsky
                > Founder, Extreme Programmer & Coach
                > http://industriallogic.com
                > 866-540-8336 (toll free)
                > 510-540-8336 (phone)
                > Berkeley, California
                >
                > Learn Code Smells, Refactoring and TDD at
                > http://industriallogic.com/elearning
                >
              • Michael Maham
                I guess we re supposed to be done Questioning Agile at this point? ;) michael
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 2, 2008
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                  I guess we're supposed to be done Questioning Agile at this point? ;)

                  michael

                  On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 7:45 AM, Karl Scotland <kjscotland@...> wrote:



                  2008/12/2 David J Anderson <netherby_uk@...>


                  If anyone would like to suggest the best stage to submit kanban
                  proposals, I am sure there are several folks on this list who would
                  appreciate the guidance.

                  I had the same reaction - no Breaking Acts or Questioning Agile.

                  I wondered whether Manifesting Agility, or the Organisation Culture was the best place,

                  Karl 
                  --
                  Karl Scotland
                  Agile Coach
                  http://availagility.wordpress.com/

                • chris.matts@gmail.com
                  Of course. It excludes people like me...... Practitioners! ;-) ... From: Michael Maham Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:03:53 To:
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 2, 2008
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                    Of course.

                    It excludes people like me...... Practitioners!
                    ;-)

                    ------------------


                    From: "Michael Maham"
                    Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:03:53 -0600
                    To: <kanbandev@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [kanbandev] Disappointed with Agile 2009 stage options

                    I guess we're supposed to be done Questioning Agile at this point? ;)

                    michael

                    On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 7:45 AM, Karl Scotland <kjscotland@googlema il.com> wrote:



                    2008/12/2 David J Anderson <netherby_uk@ yahoo.co. uk>


                    If anyone would like to suggest the best stage to submit kanban
                    proposals, I am sure there are several folks on this list who would
                    appreciate the guidance.

                    I had the same reaction - no Breaking Acts or Questioning Agile.

                    I wondered whether Manifesting Agility, or the Organisation Culture was the best place,

                    Karl 
                    --
                    Karl Scotland
                    Agile Coach
                    http://availagility .wordpress. com/

                  • Karl Scotland
                    2008/12/2 Mark Levison ... Me too. I ll also email the organisers asking/suggesting. The more of us that make a noise the better :) Karl
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 3, 2008
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                      2008/12/2 Mark Levison <mark@...>
                      If the breaking acts stage re-emerges I would be happy to help (a bit).

                      Me too.  I'll also email the organisers asking/suggesting.  The more of us that make a noise the better :)

                      Karl
                       
                      --
                      Karl Scotland
                      Agile Coach
                      http://availagility.wordpress.com/
                    • Mark Levison
                      May I suggest that whatever comments are made to the Agile 2009 working group they reflect the hard work and effort these people have put into organizing the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 3, 2008
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                        May I suggest that whatever comments are made to the Agile 2009 working group they reflect the hard work and effort these people have put into organizing the conference already. Alot of times they get comments from people like us that just make demands and don't show any understanding of thinking that might have gone into something. In this case we don't know why the two tracks got canned - maybe bad post conference feedback:

                        BTW having organized a photography conference long ago I can tell you we recieved alot of well intentioned suggestions that were just completely ignorant of the situation of the ground or didn't account for the workload etc.

                        Example:

                        I'm surprised to see that the Questioning Agile and Breaking Acts stages have disappeared from this years conference. I'm wondering why this disappeared and where content such as XXXX should go in its place. In addition I'm concerned that many topics of YYYY will not be submitted because there is not an obvious call for them.

                        ...

                        I appreciate that organizing the conefernce is a lot of hard work and that alone makes it difficult to handle so many stages. If this these stages were re-instated I would be happy to help play the role of ZZZZ.

                        ---

                        At worst we could do these stages as open spaces on the side :-)

                        Cheers
                        Mark

                        Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                        Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:  http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
                        Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
                      • Mark Levison
                        I had a conversation with Ahmed Sidky (Program Committee Chair for Agile 2009), here s what I learned: Thank you for your feedback. Concerning Kanban, I think
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 5, 2008
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                          I had a conversation with Ahmed Sidky (Program Committee Chair for Agile 2009), here's what I learned:

                          Thank you for your feedback.  Concerning Kanban, I think it fits In leadership and teams. Kanban is about project management, portfolio management and leading the teams to working another way. It's no longer a breaking act. Also we removed breaking acts because it is not related to a particular domain like testing ... all the stages this year are related to certain domains.

                          Questioning Agile had very few submissions last year so we had to switch it for another stage like Coaching. We only have a limited number of stage spaces so we have to make tough decisions.

                          I hope I have addressed some of your issues.

                          So that seems to answer the question where does Kanban belong. In addition as reviewer on the Manifesting Agility stage, I discovered that one of the topic areas is "Cognition and Pyschology" - definitely a breaking act (and oddly enough where some my research is right now). So I claim that things are better than they first seemed.

                          Finally one of David's posts (at least I think it was David) implied that the "Breaking Acts" and "Questioning Agile" encouraged work in these areas. I'm not so sure that's true, I'm doing work around how we change brains (i.e. teaching and coaching), because I have to. Not because there is "Breaking Acts" stage. Similarly I imagine David, Corey and Karl do work on Kanban because they can't not do it.

                          As I was reading about neuroscience in bed last night my wife asked why I was doing it. My reply: It's burning inside me and has to get out. I will find a way to share the ideas because I think its important.

                          I assume most good presentations come from the same passion and interest. Incidentally if neuroscience and what it has to tell us about coaching and training is of interest to you - I'm looking for one or two collaborators.

                          Cheers
                          Mark Levison

                          Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                          Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:  http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
                          Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
                        • chris.matts@gmail.com
                          Mark You may find a home for practical psychology and cognition on the real option yahoo group. Its pretty much the only thing olav and I discuss when we are
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 6, 2008
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                            Mark

                            You may find a home for practical psychology and cognition on the real option yahoo group. Its pretty much the only thing olav and I discuss when we are together.

                            Chris

                            ------------------


                            From: "Mark Levison"
                            Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:24:09 -0500
                            To: <kanbandev@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: Re: [kanbandev] Disappointed with Agile 2009 stage options

                            I had a conversation with Ahmed Sidky (Program Committee Chair for Agile 2009), here's what I learned:

                            Thank you for your feedback.  Concerning Kanban, I think it fits In leadership and teams. Kanban is about project management, portfolio management and leading the teams to working another way. It's no longer a breaking act. Also we removed breaking acts because it is not related to a particular domain like testing ... all the stages this year are related to certain domains.

                            Questioning Agile had very few submissions last year so we had to switch it for another stage like Coaching. We only have a limited number of stage spaces so we have to make tough decisions.

                            I hope I have addressed some of your issues.

                            So that seems to answer the question where does Kanban belong. In addition as reviewer on the Manifesting Agility stage, I discovered that one of the topic areas is "Cognition and Pyschology" - definitely a breaking act (and oddly enough where some my research is right now). So I claim that things are better than they first seemed.

                            Finally one of David's posts (at least I think it was David) implied that the "Breaking Acts" and "Questioning Agile" encouraged work in these areas. I'm not so sure that's true, I'm doing work around how we change brains (i.e. teaching and coaching), because I have to. Not because there is "Breaking Acts" stage. Similarly I imagine David, Corey and Karl do work on Kanban because they can't not do it.

                            As I was reading about neuroscience in bed last night my wife asked why I was doing it. My reply: It's burning inside me and has to get out. I will find a way to share the ideas because I think its important.

                            I assume most good presentations come from the same passion and interest. Incidentally if neuroscience and what it has to tell us about coaching and training is of interest to you - I'm looking for one or two collaborators.

                            Cheers
                            Mark Levison

                            Blog: http://www.notesfro matooluser. com/
                            Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:  http://www.notesfro matooluser. com/2008/ 06/agilescrum- smells.html
                            Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting: http://www.notesfro matooluser. com/2008/ 10/agile- games-for- making-retrospec tives-interestin g.html

                          • David J Anderson
                            Mark, I think you ve grossly misinterpreted my statements about a Breaking Acts or Questioning Agile stage. It s that people won t do innovation if there is no
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 6, 2008
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                              Mark,

                              I think you've grossly misinterpreted my statements about a Breaking
                              Acts or Questioning Agile stage.

                              It's that people won't do innovation if there is no stage at the
                              conference, but that innovation will not get a fair shake in the
                              community. The Agile Alliance has a long history of rejecting
                              submissions for new and innovative work or for rejecting submissions
                              that do not reflect the their current adhoc definition of "what is agile".

                              In the early days, only XP and Scrum submissions were generally
                              accepted. I submitted FDD material 3 years in a row and was rejected.
                              One year, I submitted material on prioritization of iteration backlogs
                              and it was rejected, because at that time it was clear that no one cared.

                              Without a Breaking Acts or Questioning Agile stage, I fear that
                              innovations in the space you mention will not be heard unless they are
                              coming from an established "name" in the community - Linda Rising for
                              example.

                              Meanwhile, Ahmed's comments are not internally consistent. The Telling
                              Our Stories stage is clearly not a domain specific stage. And the
                              domain overlap duplication of the current program is not addressed
                              although his reply seems to imply that they made an effort to insure
                              that there wasn't domain duplication. So they've clearly done a poor
                              job of that.

                              David

                              --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison" <mark@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I had a conversation with Ahmed Sidky (Program Committee Chair for Agile
                              > 2009), here's what I learned:
                              >
                              > Thank you for your feedback. Concerning Kanban, I think it fits In
                              > > leadership and teams. Kanban is about project management, portfolio
                              > > management and leading the teams to working another way. It's no
                              longer a
                              > > breaking act. Also we removed breaking acts because it is not
                              related to a
                              > > particular domain like testing ... all the stages this year are
                              related to
                              > > certain domains.
                              > >
                              > > Questioning Agile had very few submissions last year so we had to
                              switch it
                              > > for another stage like Coaching. We only have a limited number of
                              stage
                              > > spaces so we have to make tough decisions.
                              > >
                              > > I hope I have addressed some of your issues.
                              > >
                              >
                              > So that seems to answer the question where does Kanban belong. In
                              addition
                              > as reviewer on the Manifesting Agility stage, I discovered that one
                              of the
                              > topic areas is "Cognition and Pyschology" - definitely a breaking
                              act (and
                              > oddly enough where some my research is right now). So I claim that
                              things
                              > are better than they first seemed.
                              >
                              > Finally one of David's posts (at least I think it was David) implied
                              that
                              > the "Breaking Acts" and "Questioning Agile" encouraged work in these
                              areas.
                              > I'm not so sure that's true, I'm doing work around how we change brains
                              > (i.e. teaching and coaching), because I have to. Not because there is
                              > "Breaking Acts" stage. Similarly I imagine David, Corey and Karl do
                              work on
                              > Kanban because they can't not do it.
                              >
                              > As I was reading about neuroscience in bed last night my wife asked
                              why I
                              > was doing it. My reply: It's burning inside me and has to get out. I
                              will
                              > find a way to share the ideas because I think its important.
                              >
                              > I assume most good presentations come from the same passion and
                              interest.
                              > Incidentally if neuroscience and what it has to tell us about
                              coaching and
                              > training is of interest to you - I'm looking for one or two
                              collaborators.
                              >
                              > Cheers
                              > Mark Levison
                              >
                              > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                              > Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
                              > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
                              > Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
                              >
                              http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
                              >
                            • David J Anderson
                              Slight correction... It s *NOT* that people won t do innovation if there is no stage at the conference, but that innovation will not get a fair shake in the
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 6, 2008
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                                Slight correction...

                                It's *NOT* that people won't do innovation if there is no stage at the
                                conference, but that innovation will not get a fair shake in the
                                community. The Agile Alliance has a long history of rejecting
                                submissions for new and innovative work or for rejecting submissions
                                that do not reflect their current ad hoc definition of "what is agile".

                                --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, "David J Anderson" <netherby_uk@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Mark,
                                >
                                > I think you've grossly misinterpreted my statements about a Breaking
                                > Acts or Questioning Agile stage.
                                >
                                > It's that people won't do innovation if there is no stage at the
                                > conference, but that innovation will not get a fair shake in the
                                > community. The Agile Alliance has a long history of rejecting
                                > submissions for new and innovative work or for rejecting submissions
                                > that do not reflect the their current adhoc definition of "what is
                                agile".
                                >
                                > In the early days, only XP and Scrum submissions were generally
                                > accepted. I submitted FDD material 3 years in a row and was rejected.
                                > One year, I submitted material on prioritization of iteration backlogs
                                > and it was rejected, because at that time it was clear that no one
                                cared.
                                >
                                > Without a Breaking Acts or Questioning Agile stage, I fear that
                                > innovations in the space you mention will not be heard unless they are
                                > coming from an established "name" in the community - Linda Rising for
                                > example.
                                >
                                > Meanwhile, Ahmed's comments are not internally consistent. The Telling
                                > Our Stories stage is clearly not a domain specific stage. And the
                                > domain overlap duplication of the current program is not addressed
                                > although his reply seems to imply that they made an effort to insure
                                > that there wasn't domain duplication. So they've clearly done a poor
                                > job of that.
                                >
                                > David
                                >
                                > --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison" <mark@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I had a conversation with Ahmed Sidky (Program Committee Chair for
                                Agile
                                > > 2009), here's what I learned:
                                > >
                                > > Thank you for your feedback. Concerning Kanban, I think it fits In
                                > > > leadership and teams. Kanban is about project management, portfolio
                                > > > management and leading the teams to working another way. It's no
                                > longer a
                                > > > breaking act. Also we removed breaking acts because it is not
                                > related to a
                                > > > particular domain like testing ... all the stages this year are
                                > related to
                                > > > certain domains.
                                > > >
                                > > > Questioning Agile had very few submissions last year so we had to
                                > switch it
                                > > > for another stage like Coaching. We only have a limited number of
                                > stage
                                > > > spaces so we have to make tough decisions.
                                > > >
                                > > > I hope I have addressed some of your issues.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > So that seems to answer the question where does Kanban belong. In
                                > addition
                                > > as reviewer on the Manifesting Agility stage, I discovered that one
                                > of the
                                > > topic areas is "Cognition and Pyschology" - definitely a breaking
                                > act (and
                                > > oddly enough where some my research is right now). So I claim that
                                > things
                                > > are better than they first seemed.
                                > >
                                > > Finally one of David's posts (at least I think it was David) implied
                                > that
                                > > the "Breaking Acts" and "Questioning Agile" encouraged work in these
                                > areas.
                                > > I'm not so sure that's true, I'm doing work around how we change
                                brains
                                > > (i.e. teaching and coaching), because I have to. Not because there is
                                > > "Breaking Acts" stage. Similarly I imagine David, Corey and Karl do
                                > work on
                                > > Kanban because they can't not do it.
                                > >
                                > > As I was reading about neuroscience in bed last night my wife asked
                                > why I
                                > > was doing it. My reply: It's burning inside me and has to get out. I
                                > will
                                > > find a way to share the ideas because I think its important.
                                > >
                                > > I assume most good presentations come from the same passion and
                                > interest.
                                > > Incidentally if neuroscience and what it has to tell us about
                                > coaching and
                                > > training is of interest to you - I'm looking for one or two
                                > collaborators.
                                > >
                                > > Cheers
                                > > Mark Levison
                                > >
                                > > Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                                > > Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
                                > > http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
                                > > Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
                                > >
                                >
                                http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
                                > >
                                >
                              • Bob Sarni
                                ... coaching and ... collaborators. ... Greetings Mark, Long time! I would be interested in learning more but not sure I am at a level of understanding of
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 6, 2008
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                                  > Incidentally if neuroscience and what it has to tell us about
                                  coaching and
                                  > training is of interest to you - I'm looking for one or two
                                  collaborators.
                                  >

                                  Greetings Mark,

                                  Long time! I would be interested in learning more but not sure I am at
                                  a level of understanding of neuroscience to be a collaborator. I am
                                  interested in the science of coaching and training in general.

                                  I am a little worried that you were reading this in bed though....

                                  Bob Sarni - bsarni@...
                                • Brian Marick
                                  ... Then make a Breaking Acts conference with a spirit like RubyFringe . Alternately: make a submission that stands out. All the
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 6, 2008
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                                    On Dec 6, 2008, at 6:53 AM, David J Anderson wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The Agile Alliance has a long history of rejecting
                                    > submissions for new and innovative work or for rejecting submissions
                                    > that do not reflect the their current adhoc definition of "what is
                                    > agile".

                                    Then make a Breaking Acts conference with a spirit like RubyFringe
                                    <http://rubyfringe.com/>.

                                    Alternately: make a submission that stands out. All the submissions
                                    from last year are still online <http://submissions.agile2008.org/proposals
                                    >, so it's easy enough to do research to see which non-insider
                                    submissions got approved. I bet you'd find a strong bias toward
                                    experiential workshops (or experience reports) and things that have
                                    been presented before at smaller venues. You'll also find that
                                    submissions are (for the most part) alarmingly skimpy and not written
                                    with their audience's questions in mind. They don't use technology
                                    (links to screencasts, etc.).

                                    In short, it's obvious that submitters haven't invested much work, so
                                    it's a gamble whether they'll become dutiful once accepted. Much
                                    easier to go with the safe bets - given in to the inevitable human
                                    cronyism and groupthink.

                                    -----
                                    Brian Marick, independent consultant
                                    Mostly on agile methods with a testing slant
                                    www.exampler.com, www.exampler.com/blog, www.twitter.com/marick
                                  • David J Anderson
                                    Brian, I appreciate these comments. There is some good advice here that deserves a wider audience and a more prominent position. It also reflects a real shift
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                      Brian,

                                      I appreciate these comments. There is some good advice here that
                                      deserves a wider audience and a more prominent position. It also
                                      reflects a real shift in the conference over the years. It is not so
                                      many years ago that submissions were supposed to be new and not have
                                      been presented anywhere else and that they were also to be held up to
                                      a academic standard - because they were being printed in the
                                      transactions published by the IEEE. I agree with you that it would be
                                      better that submissions have been tried at smaller venues and that
                                      submitters can point to the material or derivative earlier works. I
                                      would like to see this advice on the Agile 2009 site.

                                      However, cronyism while always explainable is never defensible. ;-)

                                      David

                                      --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, Brian Marick <marick@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Dec 6, 2008, at 6:53 AM, David J Anderson wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > The Agile Alliance has a long history of rejecting
                                      > > submissions for new and innovative work or for rejecting submissions
                                      > > that do not reflect the their current adhoc definition of "what is
                                      > > agile".
                                      >
                                      > Then make a Breaking Acts conference with a spirit like RubyFringe
                                      > <http://rubyfringe.com/>.
                                      >
                                      > Alternately: make a submission that stands out. All the submissions
                                      > from last year are still online
                                      <http://submissions.agile2008.org/proposals
                                      > >, so it's easy enough to do research to see which non-insider
                                      > submissions got approved. I bet you'd find a strong bias toward
                                      > experiential workshops (or experience reports) and things that have
                                      > been presented before at smaller venues. You'll also find that
                                      > submissions are (for the most part) alarmingly skimpy and not written
                                      > with their audience's questions in mind. They don't use technology
                                      > (links to screencasts, etc.).
                                      >
                                      > In short, it's obvious that submitters haven't invested much work, so
                                      > it's a gamble whether they'll become dutiful once accepted. Much
                                      > easier to go with the safe bets - given in to the inevitable human
                                      > cronyism and groupthink.
                                      >
                                      > -----
                                      > Brian Marick, independent consultant
                                      > Mostly on agile methods with a testing slant
                                      > www.exampler.com, www.exampler.com/blog, www.twitter.com/marick
                                      >
                                    • Matt
                                      Mark, ... addition ... the ... (and ... things ... What aspect of Cognition and Psychology is a breaking act? Matt
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                        Mark,

                                        --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison" <mark@...> wrote:
                                        > So that seems to answer the question where does Kanban belong. In
                                        addition
                                        > as reviewer on the Manifesting Agility stage, I discovered that one of
                                        the
                                        > topic areas is "Cognition and Pyschology" - definitely a breaking act
                                        (and
                                        > oddly enough where some my research is right now). So I claim that
                                        things
                                        > are better than they first seemed.

                                        What aspect of "Cognition and Psychology" is a breaking act?

                                        Matt
                                      • Robert Biddle
                                        Just to note that the Research Stage is different, and those papers submitted there are still reviewed by a program committee in the traditional way, and if
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                          Just to note that the "Research Stage" is different, and those papers
                                          submitted there are still reviewed by a program committee in the
                                          traditional way,
                                          and if accepted, the papers are still published by IEEE.

                                          One of the oddities, however, is that at the conference they are all
                                          presented in one
                                          research stream, rather than with the "stage" areas where they may fit.

                                          Robert Biddle


                                          David J Anderson wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Brian,
                                          >
                                          > I appreciate these comments. There is some good advice here that
                                          > deserves a wider audience and a more prominent position. It also
                                          > reflects a real shift in the conference over the years. It is not so
                                          > many years ago that submissions were supposed to be new and not have
                                          > been presented anywhere else and that they were also to be held up to
                                          > a academic standard - because they were being printed in the
                                          > transactions published by the IEEE. I agree with you that it would be
                                          > better that submissions have been tried at smaller venues and that
                                          > submitters can point to the material or derivative earlier works. I
                                          > would like to see this advice on the Agile 2009 site.
                                          >
                                          > However, cronyism while always explainable is never defensible. ;-)
                                          >
                                          > David
                                          >
                                          > --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:kanbandev%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > Brian Marick <marick@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > On Dec 6, 2008, at 6:53 AM, David J Anderson wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The Agile Alliance has a long history of rejecting
                                          > > > submissions for new and innovative work or for rejecting submissions
                                          > > > that do not reflect the their current adhoc definition of "what is
                                          > > > agile".
                                          > >
                                          > > Then make a Breaking Acts conference with a spirit like RubyFringe
                                          > > <http://rubyfringe.com/ <http://rubyfringe.com/>>.
                                          > >
                                          > > Alternately: make a submission that stands out. All the submissions
                                          > > from last year are still online
                                          > <http://submissions.agile2008.org/proposals
                                          > <http://submissions.agile2008.org/proposals>
                                          > > >, so it's easy enough to do research to see which non-insider
                                          > > submissions got approved. I bet you'd find a strong bias toward
                                          > > experiential workshops (or experience reports) and things that have
                                          > > been presented before at smaller venues. You'll also find that
                                          > > submissions are (for the most part) alarmingly skimpy and not written
                                          > > with their audience's questions in mind. They don't use technology
                                          > > (links to screencasts, etc.).
                                          > >
                                          > > In short, it's obvious that submitters haven't invested much work, so
                                          > > it's a gamble whether they'll become dutiful once accepted. Much
                                          > > easier to go with the safe bets - given in to the inevitable human
                                          > > cronyism and groupthink.
                                          > >
                                          > > -----
                                          > > Brian Marick, independent consultant
                                          > > Mostly on agile methods with a testing slant
                                          > > www.exampler.com, www.exampler.com/blog, www.twitter.com/marick
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Mark Levison
                                          ... What is the yahoo group? I ve done some digging and can t find it. Cheers Mark Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/ Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                            On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 7:01 AM, <chris.matts@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Mark
                                            >
                                            > You may find a home for practical psychology and cognition on the real option yahoo group. Its pretty much the only thing olav and I discuss when we are together.
                                            >

                                            What is the yahoo group? I've done some digging and can't find it.

                                            Cheers
                                            Mark

                                            Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                                            Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
                                            http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
                                            Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
                                            http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
                                          • Mark Levison
                                            ... In an Agile Context? I ve not heard of people applying the science Cognition and Psychology to their Agile Coaching. Cheers Mark Blog:
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                              On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Matt <maswaffer@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > What aspect of "Cognition and Psychology" is a breaking act?

                                              In an Agile Context? I've not heard of people applying the science
                                              "Cognition and Psychology" to their Agile Coaching.

                                              Cheers
                                              Mark

                                              Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                                              Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
                                              http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
                                              Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
                                              http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
                                            • Matt
                                              Mark, ... Ah.. I am not a coach hence the disconnect. Cognitive psychology has been around for a while in the field of usability though. Matt
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                                Mark,

                                                --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Levison" <mark@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Matt maswaffer@... wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > What aspect of "Cognition and Psychology" is a breaking act?
                                                >
                                                > In an Agile Context? I've not heard of people applying the science
                                                > "Cognition and Psychology" to their Agile Coaching.
                                                >
                                                > Cheers
                                                > Mark

                                                Ah.. I am not a coach hence the disconnect. Cognitive psychology has
                                                been around for a while in the field of usability though.

                                                Matt
                                              • Karl Scotland
                                                2008/12/6 Brian Marick ... That s a really interesting idea. What would it take to find a nearby pub to have some Agile Fringe
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                                  2008/12/6 Brian Marick <marick@...>


                                                  Then make a Breaking Acts conference with a spirit like RubyFringe
                                                  <http://rubyfringe.com/>.

                                                  That's a really interesting idea.  What would it take to find a nearby pub to have some Agile Fringe discussions? 
                                                   
                                                  --
                                                  Karl Scotland
                                                  Agile Coach
                                                  http://availagility.wordpress.com/
                                                • David J Anderson
                                                  The idea of a fringe event modeled on the Edinburgh Fringe has been suggested in the past - the APLN talked about it. It s viable because you have a
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                                    The idea of a fringe event modeled on the Edinburgh Fringe has been
                                                    suggested in the past - the APLN talked about it. It's viable because
                                                    you have a significant community together at one time. A fringe event
                                                    is by its nature a parasite but no one seems to mind when it's in a
                                                    good cause. It's actually a very good idea, Brian.

                                                    Karl, I think initially it would need more of a focus e.g. a Kanban
                                                    fringe, or a Real Options fringe, or a Feature Injection/BDD fringe?

                                                    A fringe event would be for anything that there is a significant
                                                    community of interest but does not make it in to the official program.

                                                    Thoughts...?

                                                    David
                                                    http://www.agilemanagement.net/


                                                    --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, "Karl Scotland" <kjscotland@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > 2008/12/6 Brian Marick <marick@...>
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Then make a Breaking Acts conference with a spirit like RubyFringe
                                                    > > <http://rubyfringe.com/>.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > That's a really interesting idea. What would it take to find a
                                                    nearby pub
                                                    > to have some Agile Fringe discussions?
                                                    >
                                                    > --
                                                    > Karl Scotland
                                                    > Agile Coach
                                                    > http://availagility.wordpress.com/
                                                    >
                                                  • Mark Levison
                                                    On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:24 PM, David J Anderson ... Related to Fringe s - Birds of a Feather? The last MS related conference I attended had some excellent
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                                      On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:24 PM, David J Anderson
                                                      <netherby_uk@...> wrote:
                                                      > The idea of a fringe event modeled on the Edinburgh Fringe has been
                                                      > suggested in the past - the APLN talked about it. It's viable because
                                                      > you have a significant community together at one time. A fringe event
                                                      > is by its nature a parasite but no one seems to mind when it's in a
                                                      > good cause. It's actually a very good idea, Brian.

                                                      Related to Fringe's - Birds of a Feather? The last MS related
                                                      conference I attended had some excellent BOFs organized in the open
                                                      area. The Open Area was broken down into spaces: .NET; CLR; Rich
                                                      Client; ... - and anytime you had some free time and wanted to talk
                                                      you went to these areas and would find like minded people. In addition
                                                      after normally conference hours the BOFs came alive with speakers and
                                                      mini-sessions. This were very informally organised and so had a much
                                                      lower barrier to entry. Maybe Johanna (and whoever owns open space)
                                                      would be open to something like this.

                                                      Cheers
                                                      Mark

                                                      Blog: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                                                      Recent Entries: Agile/Scrum Smells:
                                                      http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/06/agilescrum-smells.html
                                                      Agile Games for Making Retrospectives Interesting:
                                                      http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2008/10/agile-games-for-making-retrospectives-interesting.html
                                                    • Joshua Kerievsky
                                                      ... Fringe Stage at Agile2009. IMHO, it isn t yet time to pull the plug on this stuff being at Agile2009. That conference has lots of people who need to
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                                        On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:24 AM, David J Anderson <netherby_uk@...> wrote:
                                                        The idea of a fringe event modeled on the Edinburgh Fringe has been
                                                        suggested in the past - the APLN talked about it. It's viable because
                                                        you have a significant community together at one time. A fringe event
                                                        is by its nature a parasite but no one seems to mind when it's in a
                                                        good cause. It's actually a very good idea, Brian.

                                                        Karl, I think initially it would need more of a focus e.g. a Kanban
                                                        fringe, or a Real Options fringe, or a Feature Injection/BDD fringe?

                                                        A fringe event would be for anything that there is a significant
                                                        community of interest but does not make it in to the official program.

                                                        Thoughts...?

                                                        Fringe Stage at Agile2009.  IMHO, it isn't yet time to pull the plug on this stuff being at Agile2009.  That conference has lots of people who need to learn about new Agile thinking and Agile2009 is the place for it.   If enough folks want to go in this direction, I can talk to some conference folks to see about making it happen.   

                                                        best
                                                        jk

                                                      • Karl Scotland
                                                        2008/12/8 David J Anderson ... Would a Lean Fringe be focussed enough? I also just went and looked at the Open Jam page, which I d
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                                          2008/12/8 David J Anderson <netherby_uk@...>
                                                          The idea of a fringe event modeled on the Edinburgh Fringe has been
                                                          suggested in the past - the APLN talked about it. It's viable because
                                                          you have a significant community together at one time. A fringe event
                                                          is by its nature a parasite but no one seems to mind when it's in a
                                                          good cause. It's actually a very good idea, Brian.

                                                          Karl, I think initially it would need more of a focus e.g. a Kanban
                                                          fringe, or a Real Options fringe, or a Feature Injection/BDD fringe?

                                                          A fringe event would be for anything that there is a significant
                                                          community of interest but does not make it in to the official program.

                                                          Thoughts...?

                                                          Would a Lean Fringe be focussed enough?

                                                          I also just went and looked at the Open Jam page, which I'd skipped over before:

                                                          It has a section called "The Edge" - "Come brainstorm and share ideas about what is emerging at the edge of Agile methods: what movements do you see emerging; what new practices do you think will replace others; what tuning is already taking place?"  That seems to cover what we are concerned is missing.  Maybe we could formally 'hijack' (politely) this as a Fringe?

                                                          Karl

                                                          --
                                                          Karl Scotland
                                                          Agile Coach
                                                          http://availagility.wordpress.com/
                                                        • Karl Scotland
                                                          2008/12/8 Joshua Kerievsky ... With reference to the other email I ve just sent on this thread... Using the Open Jam as a base gives
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                                            2008/12/8 Joshua Kerievsky <jlk@...>

                                                            Fringe Stage at Agile2009.  IMHO, it isn't yet time to pull the plug on this stuff being at Agile2009.  That conference has lots of people who need to learn about new Agile thinking and Agile2009 is the place for it.   If enough folks want to go in this direction, I can talk to some conference folks to see about making it happen.   

                                                            With reference to the other email I've just sent on this thread...

                                                            Using the Open Jam as a base gives us the best of both worlds.  We get to be part of the main conference, and do so without upsetting the work already done by the conference committee. 

                                                            --
                                                            Karl Scotland
                                                            Agile Coach
                                                            http://availagility.wordpress.com/
                                                          • Joshua Kerievsky
                                                            ... Makes sense to me Karl. --jk
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                                              On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Karl Scotland <kjscotland@...> wrote:
                                                              Fringe Stage at Agile2009.  IMHO, it isn't yet time to pull the plug on this stuff being at Agile2009.  That conference has lots of people who need to learn about new Agile thinking and Agile2009 is the place for it.   If enough folks want to go in this direction, I can talk to some conference folks to see about making it happen.   

                                                              With reference to the other email I've just sent on this thread...

                                                              Using the Open Jam as a base gives us the best of both worlds.  We get to be part of the main conference, and do so without upsetting the work already done by the conference committee. 

                                                              Makes sense to me Karl.  --jk

                                                            • David J Anderson
                                                              Joshua is right. It is too early to give up on getting something added to the official program. In off list discussions with Johanna Rothman, it is looking
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                                                Joshua is right. It is too early to give up on getting something added
                                                                to the official program.

                                                                In off list discussions with Johanna Rothman, it is looking likely
                                                                that there can be a Breaking Acts stage. Two folks have volunteered to
                                                                run it and are in touch with Johanna and Ahmed Sidky. I'll wait to get
                                                                a confirmation before saying any more.

                                                                David
                                                                http://www.agilemanagement.net/

                                                                --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, "Joshua Kerievsky" <jlk@...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:24 AM, David J Anderson <netherby_uk@...>wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > > The idea of a fringe event modeled on the Edinburgh Fringe has been
                                                                > > suggested in the past - the APLN talked about it. It's viable because
                                                                > > you have a significant community together at one time. A fringe event
                                                                > > is by its nature a parasite but no one seems to mind when it's in a
                                                                > > good cause. It's actually a very good idea, Brian.
                                                                > >
                                                                > > Karl, I think initially it would need more of a focus e.g. a Kanban
                                                                > > fringe, or a Real Options fringe, or a Feature Injection/BDD fringe?
                                                                > >
                                                                > > A fringe event would be for anything that there is a significant
                                                                > > community of interest but does not make it in to the official program.
                                                                > >
                                                                > > Thoughts...?
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > Fringe Stage at Agile2009. IMHO, it isn't yet time to pull the plug
                                                                on this
                                                                > stuff being at Agile2009. That conference has lots of people who
                                                                need to
                                                                > learn about new Agile thinking and Agile2009 is the place for it. If
                                                                > enough folks want to go in this direction, I can talk to some conference
                                                                > folks to see about making it happen.
                                                                >
                                                                > best
                                                                > jk
                                                                >
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