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requesting help on myths of Kanban

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  • alshalloway
    I am writing an article for the cutter consortium called Demystifying Kanban by Looking at Kanban Myths. The idea is to explain Kanban in a structure that
    Message 1 of 75 , Jan 17, 2011
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      I am writing an article for the cutter consortium called "Demystifying Kanban by Looking at Kanban Myths." The idea is to explain Kanban in a structure that counters common myths of it.  I already have a page called Myths of Kanban where I debunk many of these myths.  I have a list of some others that I will eventually add to that here.  I am hoping you all will tell me yet others so I can write up something about the more common ones. If interested, please go to the later link and read what I have, voting for them or adding some others.  Or, just discuss it here and I'll update the list.

      My intention here is to clarify Kanban.  I have long said that it is the responsibility of a methods thought leaders to help clarify mis-understandings of a method.  That a method, and its misunderstandings go together. While it is true you don't get true understanding without doing, I am of the opinion we can share lessons learned.

      Thanks,

      Alan Shalloway
      CEO, Net Objectives

    • williamrobertlux
      Chris: Plus 1. The esoterica is sometimes instructive but also sometimes little more than diverting. Bill
      Message 75 of 75 , Jan 24, 2011
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        Chris:
        Plus 1. The esoterica is sometimes instructive but also sometimes little more than diverting.
        Bill

        --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <chris.matts@...> wrote:
        >
        > Robert
        >
        > I think you have a point. I do not think that taking Kanban apart is the problem. I suspect it is the theoretical discussion ( e.g. Lean V Scrum V XP etc ) that require a great deal of energy to follow and more often than not yield little or no insight.
        >
        > This is meant to be a practitioners community. Perhaps the moderators should encourage the theoretical discussions about Lean et al. to move to a Lean yahoo discussion group.
        >
        > Chris
        >
        > --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, Robert Swanbum <rswany79@> wrote:
        > >
        > > This is not in response to your post or any specific post for that matter but
        > > does anyone think 'over-analysis' of Kanban could lead to it's death?  It's like
        > > taking a great running car apart, down to the last bolt, and then trying to put
        > > it back together.  It never seems to run as good as before you took it apart.  I
        > > mean does Kanban have to have an all encompassing purpose or can it just be?
        > > Sometimes the best ideas are the simplest ones.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: Jim Benson <jim@>
        > > To: kanbandev@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 11:35:51 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [kanbandev] Re: The impotance of Community WAS requesting help on
        > > myths of Kanban
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Chris <chris.matts@> wrote:
        > >
        > >  
        > > >Jim
        > > >
        > > >I agree.
        > > >
        > > >At present I see a pattern in both Agile and Kanban that people are dialling out
        > > >because there is little new material. I know a number of people who have stopped
        > > >"listening" to this list because all they perceive is the same ideas being
        > > >rehashed. I have been lucky to meet some of the new generation of Kanbanistas.
        > > >As a result I stick around even though the signal to noise ratio has dropped a
        > > >lot over the years.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >I think this community could be the next source of new good ideas... Provided it
        > > >does not follow the Agile community down the path of marketing and stagnate. I
        > > >see and fear that stagnation by marketing. Old school leaders professing their
        > > >greatness rather than promoting the newbies.
        > > >
        > > >Just spotted a typo. I meant to call this post "The importance of Community"...
        > > >Typo or Freudian?
        > >
        > > I agree. There's a problem we have right now where there is such a fertile
        > > ground for memes that people expect a new one every day. There is also a
        > > fundamental lack of appreciation for the depth (psychological, social, economic)
        > > of visualization, collaboration and clarity. Hopefully, conversations like this
        > > will continue to keep interest up. 
        > >
        > > For example, if people don't understand the concept of memes - their
        > > understanding of how kanban works will probably be merely mechanical. And,
        > > mechanically, kanban is boringly simple. But understanding the social flow of
        > > ideas and information through the visual control and how that can create rapidly
        > > evolving projects in practice. Is very exciting.
        > >
        > > Kapital K Kanban as a methodology stands every chance in the world of becoming
        > > sluggish and codified. It is totally in danger of being the next SixSigma. 
        > >
        > > But
        > >
        > > Pushing Kapital K Kaizen through the vehicle of visualization - rewarding
        > > continuous improvement through the appreciation of work - that's where I hope
        > > we're heading.
        > >
        > > Jim
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >Chris
        > > >
        > > >--- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, Jim Benson <jim@> wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >> Chris,
        > > >>
        > > >> I totally agree that the Agile community was early adopters of the tool. And
        > > >> that many Agile practices are key to healthy kanban use (stand-ups, unit
        > > >> tests, etc.).
        > > >>
        > > >> Also, you can argue a medium-is-the-message here, saying that the Agile
        > > >> community was the primary conduit of the kanban meme and therefore the
        > > >> current view of kanban is largely driven by Agile sensibilities.
        > > >>
        > > >> But, given that kanban is a technique expanded from another industry, I'd
        > > >> say that the current state of awareness in knowledge organizations is
        > > >> centered around forward thinking coders who happen to be Agile.
        > > >>
        > > >> Given all that, the lean software community (which I hope doesn't focus too
        > > >> much on Kanban) seems to be the growing evolution of the Agile community. In
        > > >> being an evolution, it will greatly resemble its previous evolutionary state
        > > >> and have some important elements of phase transition. Which is probably the
        > > >> most important thing here. Can we note a phase transition?
        > > >>
        > > >> I would say that moving from isolation into organizational integration is
        > > >> significant.
        > > >>
        > > >> Jim
        > > >>
        > > >> --
        > > >> *Jim Benson*
        > > >> Collaborative Management
        > > >
        > > >> <http://moduscooperandi.com/>
        > > >> Modus Cooperandi <http://moduscooperandi.com/>: Performance Through
        > > >> Collaboration
        > > >> Personal Kanban <http://personalkanban.com/>: Personal organization your
        > > >> brain will actually like
        > > >> Out Soon: the book Personal Kanban: Mapping Work | Navigating Life
        > > >>
        > > >> My Evolving Web Blog <http://ourfounder.typepad.com/> | Follow me on
        > > >> Twitter <http://twitter.com/ourfounder>
        > > >> Skype: ourfounder
        > > >> Phone US +1.206.383.6088
        > > >> Add Me on Linked In <http://linkedin.com/in/jimbenson>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Chris <chris.matts@> wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >> >
        > > >> >
        > > >> > Jim
        > > >> >
        > > >> > I do not think my description was clear enough. Kanban was an idea, a
        > > >> > "Meme". The Agile Community was a fitness landscape where that Meme
        > > >> > flourished.
        > > >> >
        > > >> > Without the Agile Community, it would potentially have taken much longer
        > > >> > for Kanban to be adopted. Without the Agile Community first adopting it,
        > > >> > other groups may not have encountered it.
        > > >> >
        > > >> > David mentions that it was the most popular session at the SEI conferences.
        > > >> > But does popularity or attractiveness of an idea translate into actual
        > > >> > adoption? The key thing about the Agile Community fitness landscape was
        > > that
        > > >> > they found the idea attractive AND they implemented it without needing to
        > > >> > see a whole load of experience reports to justify the risk.
        > > >> >
        > > >> > Funny but I must have been very lucky to work in companies where we have
        > > >> > allways seen IT integrated with the business.... with representative from
        > > >> > both the business and IT involved in projects. That has been for the whole
        > > >> > of my career. Kanban has not really done anything to change that.
        > > >> >
        > > >> > I would agree that Kanban is a great tool. I'm simply saying that even
        > > >> > though it is a great idea, it would probably be a much smaller community
        > > had
        > > >> > it not been for the great start it got from the Agile community.
        > > >> >
        > > >> > Chris
        > > >> >
        > > >> >
        > > >> > --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com <kanbandev%40yahoogroups.com>, Jim Benson
        > > >
        > > >> > <jim@> wrote:
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > What was the Fitness Landscape for Agile?
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > Evolutionary design is evolutionary design.
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > The fitness landscape for agile started well before XP. Agile was not the
        > > >> > > first iterative design methodology or family of methodologies. Agile was
        > > >> > a
        > > >> > > means of expressing many components of healthy software design - some
        > > >> > new,
        > > >> > > but most repackaged.
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > What I have noticed as an Agile practitioner of 15 years and a Lean /
        > > >> > Kanban
        > > >> > > practitioner of 5 years is that the moment we introduced Lean or kanban
        > > >> > into
        > > >> > > an org, software developers ceased to be marginalized or self-exiled.
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > Software suddenly integrated with the rest of the business. So, in the
        > > >> > new
        > > >> > > kanban community, we see HR, Legal, Sales, Graphic Design, and the rest
        > > >> > not
        > > >> > > only paying attention to software devs, but now looking to them for
        > > >> > process
        > > >> > > guidance.
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > So, absolutely agree that the fitness landscape for the kanban meme
        > > >> > includes
        > > >> > > Agile, but it also includes a huge a whole lot more people.
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > I would also say that at Lean Coffees throughout America and Sweden and
        > > >> > at
        > > >> > > LSSC last year in Atlanta, I have seen a very defined community making
        > > >> > very
        > > >> > > large, sure evolutionary steps.
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > And that's been wonderful.
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > Jim
        > > >> > > --
        > > >> > > *Jim Benson*
        > > >> > > Collaborative Management
        > > >> > > <http://moduscooperandi.com/>
        > > >> > > Modus Cooperandi <http://moduscooperandi.com/>: Performance Through
        > > >> > > Collaboration
        > > >> > > Personal Kanban <http://personalkanban.com/>: Personal organization your
        > > >> >
        > > >> > > brain will actually like
        > > >> > > Out Soon: the book Personal Kanban: Mapping Work | Navigating Life
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > My Evolving Web Blog <http://ourfounder.typepad.com/> | Follow me on
        > > >> > > Twitter <http://twitter.com/ourfounder>
        > > >> >
        > > >> > > Skype: ourfounder
        > > >> > > Phone US +1.206.383.6088
        > > >> > > Add Me on Linked In <http://linkedin.com/in/jimbenson>
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 6:53 AM, David Anderson <netherby_uk@>wrote:
        > > >> >
        > > >> > >
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > > > Actually, 2 years running Kanban presentations were voted in the Top 10
        > > >> > at
        > > >> > > > the SEPG conference and #1 on one of those years. Kanban actually
        > > >> > solves a
        > > >> > > > problem for SEI types too.
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > > > The Agile community was simply more "agile" in its adoption.
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > > > In fairness both Arlo and Joshua were solving a different problem with
        > > >> > a
        > > >> > > > similar looking solution. Similar mechanism but different problem. I'm
        > > >> > not
        > > >> > > > sure what problem you were trying to solve but if it was deferred
        > > >> > decision
        > > >> > > > making then that wasn't the problem I was trying to solve.
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > > > One thing is true, I believe, we were all using a systems thinking
        > > >> > > > approach.
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > > > Regards,
        > > >> > > > David
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > > > --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com <kanbandev%40yahoogroups.com><kanbandev%
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >> > 40yahoogroups.com>,
        > > >> >
        > > >> > > > "chrismatts1968" <chrismatts1968@> wrote:
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > > > I would say that there would be no Kanban Community without the Agile
        > > >> > > > Community.
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > > > If you look at Julian Everret's work on Meme Lifecycles, the Kanban
        > > >> > Idea
        > > >> > > > is a meme and the Agile Community was the "Fitness Landscape" where it
        > > >> > grew.
        > > >> > > > A number of people had a problem and came up with a solution ( Arlo,
        > > >> > David,
        > > >> > > > myself ). When Kanban was presented to the Agile Community, they
        > > >> > embraced it
        > > >> > > > because it solved problems for them. This generated the stories and
        > > >> > examples
        > > >> > > > that drove the growth of the group that eventually became the Kanban
        > > >> > > > Community.
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > > > Now imagine a situation where Kanban did not have the Agile Community
        > > >> > to
        > > >> > > > adopt the idea. How many SEI types do you hear are using Kanban? Are
        > > >> > they
        > > >> > > > using it because they like the idea or are they using it because the
        > > >> > Agile
        > > >> > > > community has shown that it works?
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > > > "I've got a great idea" is not as compelling as "Let me show you this
        > > >> > > > stuff that these other people are using".
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > > > Without the Agile Community, David may have eventually found a group
        > > >> > to
        > > >> > > > embrace Kanban, but it is likely someone in the Agile Community would
        > > >> > have
        > > >> > > > beaten him to it.
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > > > That said, there would not be a Kanban community unless it was
        > > >> > solving
        > > >> > > > real world problems. And it does.
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > > > My concern is that it is not really evolving. A number of people are
        > > >> > > > leaving the community because they perceive nothing new is happening.
        > > >> > Do we
        > > >> > > > need a community to sustain an idea that is not evolving? Has the
        > > >> > community
        > > >> > > > become a form of marketing for the existing ideas?
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > > > Do we have a zombie community?
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > > > --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com
        > > >><kanbandev%40yahoogroups.com><kanbandev%
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >> > 40yahoogroups.com>, "David
        > > >> >
        > > >> > > > Anderson" <netherby_uk@> wrote:
        > > >> > > > > >
        > > >> > > > > > There would be no community if Kanban was not solving a real
        > > >> > problem
        > > >> > > > for people and if there were no stories. Without the early stories and
        > > >> > > > presentations and blog posts and magazine articles there would be no
        > > >> > > > community. Without the community there would have been no demand for
        > > >> > more
        > > >> > > > guidance and no demand for books. One begets the other. You cannot have
        > > >> > one
        > > >> > > > without the other. I don't see the value proposition as divisible.
        > > >> > > > > >
        > > >> > > > > > David
        > > >> > > > > > http://www.kanbaninaction.com/
        > > >> > > > > >
        > > >> > > > > > --- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com
        > > >><kanbandev%40yahoogroups.com><kanbandev%
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >> > 40yahoogroups.com>,
        > > >> >
        > > >> > > > Rodrigo Yoshima <rodrigoy@> wrote:
        > > >> > > > > > >
        > > >> > > > > > > Alan really got a point. It's hard to box what Kanban is.
        > > >> > Sometimes I
        > > >> > > > ask
        > > >> > > > > > > myself why we need all these labels. I like the Kanban community
        > > >> > and
        > > >> > > > your
        > > >> > > > > > > flow of ideas.
        > > >> > > > > > >
        > > >> > > > > > > Deming said that the key property of Toyota success was
        > > >> > > > "self-reliance". If
        > > >> > > > > > > we copy Toyota, we look less like Toyota. Scrum worked somewhere
        > > >> > > > sometime,
        > > >> > > > > > > and we copy it. The same with Kanban, or XP, or RUP.
        > > >> > > > > > >
        > > >> > > > > > > Today I see Kanban as "Visualization of work (and waste) to raise
        > > >> > > > social
        > > >> > > > > > > capital or synergy". I use Kanban embedded on Scrum a lot. But
        > > >> > the
        > > >> > > > great
        > > >> > > > > > > value of Kanban is the community, not the books or the success
        > > >> > > > stories.
        > > >> > > > > > >
        > > >> > > > > > > Rodrigo Yoshima
        > > >> > > > > > > www.ASPERCOM.com.br
        > > >> > > > > > > (11) 2309-1868 | (11) 9747-0250
        > > >> > > > > > >
        > > >> > > > > >
        > > >> > > > >
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > > >
        > > >> > >
        > > >> >
        > > >> >
        > > >> >
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
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