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Re: emptiness

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  • dorjeshonnu
    ... it is not about seeking something else, somewhere else it is about not needing to see what is not there it is about seeing what happens here this very gaze
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 14, 2012
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      "jfnewell7" <jfnewell7@...> wrote:
      >
      > There cannot be a duality between Buddha and Emptiness. We wouldn't
      > have a situation where Buddha had a separate emptiness meditation.
      > Therefore, I would say Buddha = Emptiness, or Buddha-nature =
      > Emptiness.

      it is not about seeking something else, somewhere else
      it is about not needing to see what is not there
      it is about seeing what happens here

      this very gaze - how it works like *this*
    • Thomas Mether
      Buddha nature = interdependence of forms (conventional reality) and emptiness. Emptiness does NOT exist in any serious teaching apartfrom or behind reality as
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 14, 2012
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        Buddha nature = interdependence of forms (conventional reality) and emptiness. Emptiness does NOT exist in any serious teaching apartfrom or behind reality as co-produced forms. It is a quality of them because they are interdependent (asvabhava). Sunya also means pregnancy, creative potential. Sunyata of sunyata means there is no independent sunyata, no real sunyata behind appearances, sunyata IS appearances only AS appearances and nothing else. Emptiness and form are yin and yang.
         
        This is beginning to sound a bit like a serious need for someone to have a teacher or be ignored.


        ________________________________
        From: dorjeshonnu <dorjeshonnu@...>
        To: kagyu@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 4:12 PM
        Subject: [kagyu] Re: emptiness



         

        "jfnewell7" <jfnewell7@...> wrote:
        >
        > There cannot be a duality between Buddha and Emptiness. We wouldn't
        > have a situation where Buddha had a separate emptiness meditation.
        > Therefore, I would say Buddha = Emptiness, or Buddha-nature =
        > Emptiness.

        it is not about seeking something else, somewhere else
        it is about not needing to see what is not there
        it is about seeing what happens here

        this very gaze - how it works like *this*




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tungsten_gumdrop
        In the book Essence of The Heart Sutra, HH Dalai lama points out that emptiness is not a separate thing but can only be applied as a description of
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 14, 2012
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          In the book Essence of The Heart Sutra, HH Dalai lama points out that emptiness is not a separate "thing" but can only be applied as a description of phenomena. When i get a few minutes I will type in the exact quote.
        • Thomas Mether
          Yes. I m reminded of Kalu Rinpoche s comments in San Francisco about a 1967 HD Electro-Glide I owned. A professor from SFSU, in response to Rinpoche s
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 14, 2012
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            Yes. I'm reminded of Kalu Rinpoche's comments in San Francisco about a 1967 HD Electro-Glide I owned. A professor from SFSU, in response to Rinpoche's teaching, cited a Shakespeare quote "we are such things as dreams are made of"... Rinpoche replied, "yes, all are dreams. Buddhas are enlightened dreamers. ... One can deal with dreams because they are not anything (some of us gathered, not anything meant no "obstacle") if one is free to live and change. It is open."
             
             

            ________________________________
            From: tungsten_gumdrop <mistahvolkah@...>
            To: kagyu@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 6:54 PM
            Subject: [kagyu] Re: emptiness



             

            In the book Essence of The Heart Sutra, HH Dalai lama points out that emptiness is not a separate "thing" but can only be applied as a description of phenomena. When i get a few minutes I will type in the exact quote.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • dorjeshonnu
            ... various methods permit a greater efficiency of wakening, but you may have to be very careful with the issue of consent. gautama did not remain alive with
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 14, 2012
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              "jfnewell7" <jfnewell7@...> wrote:
              >
              > Perhaps it is completely impossible to accelerate the enlightenment
              > of all beings. But perhaps the problem is just some knots which
              > could be discovered and loosened.

              various methods permit a greater efficiency of wakening, but you may have to be very careful with the issue of consent. gautama did not remain alive with us for the duration of the age, because ananda did not ask it of him. furthermore, the aim of view accompanying such methods changes with them, such that the significance of an active rescue as proposed is diminished. a student can leave behind the role of a shepherd, taking the role of a boatman, or taking the role of a king


              > Here we have different definitions, so we may be talking about
              > different emptinesses. From the Supreme Source book, in just my
              > interpretation which could be wrong, the Supreme Source from which
              > everything arises is emptiness. Supreme Source = emptiness. Said
              > differently, I see emptiness as a technical term which doesn't mean
              > ordinary samsaric empty space.

              emptiness indeed is not quite space, although space is as empty of intrinsic existence as any other object. kunjed gyalpo, or supreme source, is somewhat off topic for this forum, so you may want to limit discussion of it before a moderator has to cordially step in. in short, however, the text is an open publication of what was once a closed teaching, available to students with a particular degree of prior preparation. while many of the words are straightforward enough, the context of oral explanation from a teacher can be important to obtain an accurate reading. you should find, if you look carefully, an admonishment to keep the teaching sealed among the aphorisms

              relation of emptiness to kunjed gyalpo is by way of an explanation of the role played by mind - as determined by the precedent development of ignorance - and the nature of mind, which like each other object lacks any intrinsic existence - so it is empty. as a dharmakaya emanation spontaneously appearing in conversation with vajrasattva, samantabhadra is phenomenally related to emptiness by virtue of dharmakaya - the truth body - consisting of presence resting, completely empty. note that this depiction is a simplification for the sake of communication


              > You might well be right that that is the real situation and there
              > is nothing that can be done. However, my compassion prefers to
              > think that it might mean that trillions of quadrillions of beings
              > will suddenly become enlightened.

              when gautama woke, that waking, of a samyaksambuddha, did not waken any sentient being other than gautama. it is very possible to generate benefit for limitless numbers of sentient beings through the emanation of countless form bodies, because single and multiple are not finally meaningful. this would, however, require path completion by you, to whichever extent you might determine to be sufficient for your implementation of your intent


              > At the moment, I see a possibility of spreading some very special
              > wisdom to all beings, which wisdom would enable them to instantly
              > or very quickly enlighten themselves. What that very special wisdom
              > might be, I don't know. However, given how much beings are
              > suffering now, it does no harm to try to find such a method.

              for this kind of method you must obtain a teacher
              you must use the method correctly yourself

              http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/

              > I did enough of the preliminary practices to be truly horrified by
              > what is happening to my brother and sister beings.

              you seem to have learned to undertake preliminaries correctly
              there is more you can learn about views in a correct way
              best of luck with that, as it can take time
            • Thomas Mether
              While I have no disagreement with what dorjeshonnu stated below (or in any posts), method is not method. Under a qualified teacher, it is the close personal
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 15, 2012
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                While I have no disagreement with what dorjeshonnu stated below (or in any posts), "method" is not method. Under a qualified teacher, it is the close personal relationship that any "methods" WITHIN the context of that personal guidance are effective, tuned, and even, invented/improvised WITHIN that relationship. I think of Marpa and Milarepa. The teaching is much of the time not verbal, not method, but like a marriage, a life spent together. Again, I am sure dorjeshonnu would agree with this. Dharma is like real cooking, real sex, real relationship -- method is just a rough archaeology of what approximately others have done in the past -- apart from that Dharma is life and life has no method. Under guidance, "method" is just fallible strategies to encounter life with an attitude to deal with situations where one/some are aspiring to be a bit more enlightened in navigating them. Thomas



                ________________________________
                From: dorjeshonnu <dorjeshonnu@...>
                To: kagyu@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 12:28 AM
                Subject: [kagyu] Re: methods


                 
                "jfnewell7" <jfnewell7@...> wrote:
                >
                > Perhaps it is completely impossible to accelerate the enlightenment
                > of all beings. But perhaps the problem is just some knots which
                > could be discovered and loosened.

                various methods permit a greater efficiency of wakening, but you may have to be very careful with the issue of consent. gautama did not remain alive with us for the duration of the age, because ananda did not ask it of him. furthermore, the aim of view accompanying such methods changes with them, such that the significance of an active rescue as proposed is diminished. a student can leave behind the role of a shepherd, taking the role of a boatman, or taking the role of a king

                > Here we have different definitions, so we may be talking about
                > different emptinesses. From the Supreme Source book, in just my
                > interpretation which could be wrong, the Supreme Source from which
                > everything arises is emptiness. Supreme Source = emptiness. Said
                > differently, I see emptiness as a technical term which doesn't mean
                > ordinary samsaric empty space.

                emptiness indeed is not quite space, although space is as empty of intrinsic existence as any other object. kunjed gyalpo, or supreme source, is somewhat off topic for this forum, so you may want to limit discussion of it before a moderator has to cordially step in. in short, however, the text is an open publication of what was once a closed teaching, available to students with a particular degree of prior preparation. while many of the words are straightforward enough, the context of oral explanation from a teacher can be important to obtain an accurate reading. you should find, if you look carefully, an admonishment to keep the teaching sealed among the aphorisms

                relation of emptiness to kunjed gyalpo is by way of an explanation of the role played by mind - as determined by the precedent development of ignorance - and the nature of mind, which like each other object lacks any intrinsic existence - so it is empty. as a dharmakaya emanation spontaneously appearing in conversation with vajrasattva, samantabhadra is phenomenally related to emptiness by virtue of dharmakaya - the truth body - consisting of presence resting, completely empty. note that this depiction is a simplification for the sake of communication

                > You might well be right that that is the real situation and there
                > is nothing that can be done. However, my compassion prefers to
                > think that it might mean that trillions of quadrillions of beings
                > will suddenly become enlightened.

                when gautama woke, that waking, of a samyaksambuddha, did not waken any sentient being other than gautama. it is very possible to generate benefit for limitless numbers of sentient beings through the emanation of countless form bodies, because single and multiple are not finally meaningful. this would, however, require path completion by you, to whichever extent you might determine to be sufficient for your implementation of your intent

                > At the moment, I see a possibility of spreading some very special
                > wisdom to all beings, which wisdom would enable them to instantly
                > or very quickly enlighten themselves. What that very special wisdom
                > might be, I don't know. However, given how much beings are
                > suffering now, it does no harm to try to find such a method.

                for this kind of method you must obtain a teacher
                you must use the method correctly yourself

                http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/

                > I did enough of the preliminary practices to be truly horrified by
                > what is happening to my brother and sister beings.

                you seem to have learned to undertake preliminaries correctly
                there is more you can learn about views in a correct way
                best of luck with that, as it can take time




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • dorjeshonnu
                ... definitely. in every aspect of teaching, paragate, parasamgate
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 16, 2012
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                  Thomas Mether <t_mether@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dharma is like real cooking, real sex, real relationship -- method is
                  > just a rough archaeology of what approximately others have done in
                  > the past -- apart from that Dharma is life and life has no method.
                  > Under guidance, "method" is just fallible strategies to encounter
                  > life with an attitude to deal with situations where one/some are
                  > aspiring to be a bit more enlightened in navigating them.

                  definitely. in every aspect of teaching, paragate, parasamgate
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