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Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?

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  • Leslie Connors
    Cady, you re a bright person, look at your response. You made my point for me. Leslie ... From: Cady godess To: kafka-list@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 26, 2004
      Cady, you're a bright person, look at your response. You made my point for me.
      Leslie

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Cady godess
      To: kafka-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 6:04 PM
      Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?


      I think that it is impossible to say that a human
      turning into a bug is concrete. I have never known
      anyone to turn into a bug.

      --- Leslie Connors <buckley126@...> wrote:
      > Surreal directly implies a dream state, thus Gregor
      > is in the opiated environ of the bureaucracy. To
      > believe he actually was a bug is rather concrete.
      > Leslie
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Cady godess
      > To: kafka-list@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 11:33 AM
      > Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?
      >
      >
      > Yes, well part of what I love about Kafka is the
      > surreal quality. I like that Gregor actaully turns
      > into a bug. I think that adds to the beauty of his
      > story telling.
      >
      >
      > --- Priya Subramaniam <liminalspace@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > i don't think that you can apply ordinary
      > standards
      > > of storytelling to
      > > kafka's works. ie, it's not either
      > "metaphorical" or
      > > "literal"- rather, it
      > > is both at the same time- it's up to the reader
      > to
      > > think about it and decide
      > > (if possible- I know that I am still unsure
      > about
      > > 'metamorphosis'!)
      > >
      > > ----Original Message Follows----
      > > From: "Maria Triantafillou"
      > <marouska78@...>
      > > Reply-To: kafka-list@yahoogroups.com
      > > To: <kafka-list@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?
      > > Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:01:42 +0200
      > >
      > > I believe you're not thinking metaphorically and
      > all
      > > of kafka's work is
      > > certainly metaphores, ways of telling rather
      > common
      > > but important thing in a
      > > strange and interesting story....
      > >
      > > Thoughts?
      > >
      > > P.S. Hello to all of you out there!! Long- time
      > > reader, but never posted.
      > > Maria Triantafillou
      > > martr@...
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Cady godess" <cady_godess@...>
      > > To: <kafka-list@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:41 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?
      > >
      > >
      > > > I think he is definately really a bug. He
      > talks
      > > about
      > > > scurring on cielings and also his mother
      > reacts
      > > badly
      > > > to her first sight of him after the
      > > transformation.
      > > > The other thing is that one of the physical
      > > causes of
      > > > his death is an apple that is thrown at him.
      > That
      > > > would not kill a human. Also if he is not
      > really
      > > a bug
      > > > why remove all his furniture.
      > > >
      > > > Amy
      > > >
      > > > --- jaimejwilson2000
      > <jaimej_wilson@...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > How does one really know that Gregor is
      > > actually a
      > > > > bug? It says he
      > > > > feels like a bug... but perhaps a mental
      > > illness
      > > > > only makes himself
      > > > > think or feel he is a bug.
      > > > > Evidence to support this claim is the fact
      > that
      > > his
      > > > > parents hardly
      > > > > react to what has supposedly happened to
      > > > > Gregor...Everyone seems very
      > > > > calm considering the circumstances, even
      > gregor
      > > > > himself!
      > > > > Perhaps being a bug is a metaphor for how
      > he
      > > feels,
      > > > > and resides only
      > > > > in his mental state not his actual physical
      > > state.
      > > > > To the world he
      > > > > appears as Gregor the human, just a
      > depressed,
      > > > > mentally ill version
      > > > > of whom his family is ashamed... Mental
      > illness
      > > was
      > > > > certainly taboo
      > > > > at this time when the story was written...
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > =====
      > > > Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the
      > > DONT's
      > > > Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES,
      > the
      > > WON'TS
      > > > Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close
      > to
      > > me
      > > > ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be
      > > >
      > > > __________________________________
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      > > > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage,
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      > > spam
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      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      _________________________________________________________________
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      >
      >
      > =====
      > Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the DONT's
      > Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the
      > WON'TS
      > Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close to me
      > ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be
      >
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      >
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      =====
      Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the DONT's
      Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the WON'TS
      Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close to me
      ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be

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    • Putrescent Stench of Death
      Something can be written in a concrete, or literal, context, without actually having happened in real life. There s nothing in the text itself that implies the
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 27, 2004
        Something can be written in a concrete, or literal,
        context, without actually having happened in real
        life.

        There's nothing in the text itself that implies the
        transformation is "surreal" or "a dream." Kafka often
        writes about things happening that don't happen in
        real life (as far as we know), and these events are
        symbolic, but to be a symbol, something must first be
        the thing it is before it can be what it symbolizes.
        Kafka's style is very dry, mundane, and unadorned, I
        think that's because he wanted the events to seem more
        believable. When something is surreal, there is an
        ambiguity as to what's happening, what's being
        represented. Kafka's writing isn't like that at all.
        It's mundane, clear, and precise. Think of painting.
        Salvador Dali is surrealist. Kafka would be more like
        the modernist painting of the fall of Icarus; the
        majority of the painting is taken up by workers
        plowing in a field, showing everyday activities, and
        in the background, there's a little figure falling
        from the sky, barely noticable. This is more Kafka's
        style to me.

        How can the story go on after Gregor is dead if he's
        dreaming it? Also, if it's a dream, why is it told
        through 3rd person? There's a difference between
        soemthing having metaphorical implications, and
        actually being a metaphor.

        I actually think it's important that Gregor's
        metamorphosis is a literal one. If his change is just
        a dream, then the whole story is a kind of "trick,"
        and nothing significant is really coming from the
        change. However, if it is a literal change, then there
        is a definite revelation going on, to Gregor and to
        the people around him.

        Andrew

        =====
        For the most part the phenomenology of the world is a nightmarish excrescence.


        All these buildings. What did Talbert want to do--sodomize the Festival Hall?

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      • Cady godess
        Very interesting. ... ===== Listen to the MUSTN TS child, Listen to the DONT s Listen to the SHOULDN TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the WON TS Listen to the NEVER HAVES,
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 29, 2004
          Very interesting.

          --- Putrescent Stench of Death
          <putrescent_stench@...> wrote:
          > Something can be written in a concrete, or literal,
          > context, without actually having happened in real
          > life.
          >
          > There's nothing in the text itself that implies the
          > transformation is "surreal" or "a dream." Kafka
          > often
          > writes about things happening that don't happen in
          > real life (as far as we know), and these events are
          > symbolic, but to be a symbol, something must first
          > be
          > the thing it is before it can be what it symbolizes.
          > Kafka's style is very dry, mundane, and unadorned, I
          > think that's because he wanted the events to seem
          > more
          > believable. When something is surreal, there is an
          > ambiguity as to what's happening, what's being
          > represented. Kafka's writing isn't like that at all.
          > It's mundane, clear, and precise. Think of painting.
          > Salvador Dali is surrealist. Kafka would be more
          > like
          > the modernist painting of the fall of Icarus; the
          > majority of the painting is taken up by workers
          > plowing in a field, showing everyday activities, and
          > in the background, there's a little figure falling
          > from the sky, barely noticable. This is more Kafka's
          > style to me.
          >
          > How can the story go on after Gregor is dead if he's
          > dreaming it? Also, if it's a dream, why is it told
          > through 3rd person? There's a difference between
          > soemthing having metaphorical implications, and
          > actually being a metaphor.
          >
          > I actually think it's important that Gregor's
          > metamorphosis is a literal one. If his change is
          > just
          > a dream, then the whole story is a kind of "trick,"
          > and nothing significant is really coming from the
          > change. However, if it is a literal change, then
          > there
          > is a definite revelation going on, to Gregor and to
          > the people around him.
          >
          > Andrew
          >
          > =====
          > For the most part the phenomenology of the world is
          > a nightmarish excrescence.
          >
          >
          > All these buildings. What did Talbert want to
          > do--sodomize the Festival Hall?
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool.
          > Try it!
          > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
          >


          =====
          Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the DONT's
          Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the WON'TS
          Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close to me
          ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be

          __________________________________
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
          http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
        • Mykel
          it s has been said that maybe Gregor was dead from the start, that in fact the metamorphosis in itself is DEATH that DEATH is the final form. In my mind as I
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 4 8:59 PM
            it's has been said that maybe Gregor was dead from the start, that
            in fact the metamorphosis in itself is "DEATH" that DEATH is the
            final form.

            In my mind as I read the metamorphisis . I noticed that this
            metamorphisis doesn't take place EVER. if GREGOR is a BUG when he
            awakes. We as the reader never SEE ANY METAMORPHOSIS?... however we
            do witness the family metamorphosis. Right in front of our eyes...
            they change constantly. The story continues after Gregor dies from
            an apple wound... because the metamorphosis has yet to be
            witnessed... Specially the sister who goes from young girl who in
            the beginning is CRYING while Gregor's boss comes to check up on
            him... to WORKING WOMEN.. worthy to be married off.


            --- In kafka-list@yahoogroups.com, Cady godess <cady_godess@y...>
            wrote:
            > Very interesting.
            >
            > --- Putrescent Stench of Death
            > <putrescent_stench@y...> wrote:
            > > Something can be written in a concrete, or literal,
            > > context, without actually having happened in real
            > > life.
            > >
            > > There's nothing in the text itself that implies the
            > > transformation is "surreal" or "a dream." Kafka
            > > often
            > > writes about things happening that don't happen in
            > > real life (as far as we know), and these events are
            > > symbolic, but to be a symbol, something must first
            > > be
            > > the thing it is before it can be what it symbolizes.
            > > Kafka's style is very dry, mundane, and unadorned, I
            > > think that's because he wanted the events to seem
            > > more
            > > believable. When something is surreal, there is an
            > > ambiguity as to what's happening, what's being
            > > represented. Kafka's writing isn't like that at all.
            > > It's mundane, clear, and precise. Think of painting.
            > > Salvador Dali is surrealist. Kafka would be more
            > > like
            > > the modernist painting of the fall of Icarus; the
            > > majority of the painting is taken up by workers
            > > plowing in a field, showing everyday activities, and
            > > in the background, there's a little figure falling
            > > from the sky, barely noticable. This is more Kafka's
            > > style to me.
            > >
            > > How can the story go on after Gregor is dead if he's
            > > dreaming it? Also, if it's a dream, why is it told
            > > through 3rd person? There's a difference between
            > > soemthing having metaphorical implications, and
            > > actually being a metaphor.
            > >
            > > I actually think it's important that Gregor's
            > > metamorphosis is a literal one. If his change is
            > > just
            > > a dream, then the whole story is a kind of "trick,"
            > > and nothing significant is really coming from the
            > > change. However, if it is a literal change, then
            > > there
            > > is a definite revelation going on, to Gregor and to
            > > the people around him.
            > >
            > > Andrew
            > >
            > > =====
            > > For the most part the phenomenology of the world is
            > > a nightmarish excrescence.
            > >
            > >
            > > All these buildings. What did Talbert want to
            > > do--sodomize the Festival Hall?
            > >
            > > __________________________________
            > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool.
            > > Try it!
            > > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
            > >
            >
            >
            > =====
            > Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the DONT's
            > Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the WON'TS
            > Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close to me
            > ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
            > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
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