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Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?

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  • Cady godess
    I think that it is impossible to say that a human turning into a bug is concrete. I have never known anyone to turn into a bug. ... ===== Listen to the
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 26, 2004
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      I think that it is impossible to say that a human
      turning into a bug is concrete. I have never known
      anyone to turn into a bug.

      --- Leslie Connors <buckley126@...> wrote:
      > Surreal directly implies a dream state, thus Gregor
      > is in the opiated environ of the bureaucracy. To
      > believe he actually was a bug is rather concrete.
      > Leslie
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Cady godess
      > To: kafka-list@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 11:33 AM
      > Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?
      >
      >
      > Yes, well part of what I love about Kafka is the
      > surreal quality. I like that Gregor actaully turns
      > into a bug. I think that adds to the beauty of his
      > story telling.
      >
      >
      > --- Priya Subramaniam <liminalspace@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > i don't think that you can apply ordinary
      > standards
      > > of storytelling to
      > > kafka's works. ie, it's not either
      > "metaphorical" or
      > > "literal"- rather, it
      > > is both at the same time- it's up to the reader
      > to
      > > think about it and decide
      > > (if possible- I know that I am still unsure
      > about
      > > 'metamorphosis'!)
      > >
      > > ----Original Message Follows----
      > > From: "Maria Triantafillou"
      > <marouska78@...>
      > > Reply-To: kafka-list@yahoogroups.com
      > > To: <kafka-list@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?
      > > Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:01:42 +0200
      > >
      > > I believe you're not thinking metaphorically and
      > all
      > > of kafka's work is
      > > certainly metaphores, ways of telling rather
      > common
      > > but important thing in a
      > > strange and interesting story....
      > >
      > > Thoughts?
      > >
      > > P.S. Hello to all of you out there!! Long- time
      > > reader, but never posted.
      > > Maria Triantafillou
      > > martr@...
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Cady godess" <cady_godess@...>
      > > To: <kafka-list@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:41 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?
      > >
      > >
      > > > I think he is definately really a bug. He
      > talks
      > > about
      > > > scurring on cielings and also his mother
      > reacts
      > > badly
      > > > to her first sight of him after the
      > > transformation.
      > > > The other thing is that one of the physical
      > > causes of
      > > > his death is an apple that is thrown at him.
      > That
      > > > would not kill a human. Also if he is not
      > really
      > > a bug
      > > > why remove all his furniture.
      > > >
      > > > Amy
      > > >
      > > > --- jaimejwilson2000
      > <jaimej_wilson@...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > How does one really know that Gregor is
      > > actually a
      > > > > bug? It says he
      > > > > feels like a bug... but perhaps a mental
      > > illness
      > > > > only makes himself
      > > > > think or feel he is a bug.
      > > > > Evidence to support this claim is the fact
      > that
      > > his
      > > > > parents hardly
      > > > > react to what has supposedly happened to
      > > > > Gregor...Everyone seems very
      > > > > calm considering the circumstances, even
      > gregor
      > > > > himself!
      > > > > Perhaps being a bug is a metaphor for how
      > he
      > > feels,
      > > > > and resides only
      > > > > in his mental state not his actual physical
      > > state.
      > > > > To the world he
      > > > > appears as Gregor the human, just a
      > depressed,
      > > > > mentally ill version
      > > > > of whom his family is ashamed... Mental
      > illness
      > > was
      > > > > certainly taboo
      > > > > at this time when the story was written...
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > =====
      > > > Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the
      > > DONT's
      > > > Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES,
      > the
      > > WON'TS
      > > > Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close
      > to
      > > me
      > > > ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be
      > > >
      > > > __________________________________
      > > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage,
      > less
      > > spam
      > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      _________________________________________________________________
      > > Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB
      > > options now! Go to
      > >
      > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au&page=hotmail/es2
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > =====
      > Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the DONT's
      > Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the
      > WON'TS
      > Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close to me
      > ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be
      >
      > __________________________________
      > Do you Yahoo!?
      > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on
      > time.
      > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      >
      >


      =====
      Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the DONT's
      Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the WON'TS
      Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close to me
      ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be

      __________________________________
      Do you Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
      http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
    • Leslie Connors
      Cady, you re a bright person, look at your response. You made my point for me. Leslie ... From: Cady godess To: kafka-list@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 26, 2004
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        Cady, you're a bright person, look at your response. You made my point for me.
        Leslie

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Cady godess
        To: kafka-list@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 6:04 PM
        Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?


        I think that it is impossible to say that a human
        turning into a bug is concrete. I have never known
        anyone to turn into a bug.

        --- Leslie Connors <buckley126@...> wrote:
        > Surreal directly implies a dream state, thus Gregor
        > is in the opiated environ of the bureaucracy. To
        > believe he actually was a bug is rather concrete.
        > Leslie
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Cady godess
        > To: kafka-list@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 11:33 AM
        > Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?
        >
        >
        > Yes, well part of what I love about Kafka is the
        > surreal quality. I like that Gregor actaully turns
        > into a bug. I think that adds to the beauty of his
        > story telling.
        >
        >
        > --- Priya Subramaniam <liminalspace@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > i don't think that you can apply ordinary
        > standards
        > > of storytelling to
        > > kafka's works. ie, it's not either
        > "metaphorical" or
        > > "literal"- rather, it
        > > is both at the same time- it's up to the reader
        > to
        > > think about it and decide
        > > (if possible- I know that I am still unsure
        > about
        > > 'metamorphosis'!)
        > >
        > > ----Original Message Follows----
        > > From: "Maria Triantafillou"
        > <marouska78@...>
        > > Reply-To: kafka-list@yahoogroups.com
        > > To: <kafka-list@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?
        > > Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:01:42 +0200
        > >
        > > I believe you're not thinking metaphorically and
        > all
        > > of kafka's work is
        > > certainly metaphores, ways of telling rather
        > common
        > > but important thing in a
        > > strange and interesting story....
        > >
        > > Thoughts?
        > >
        > > P.S. Hello to all of you out there!! Long- time
        > > reader, but never posted.
        > > Maria Triantafillou
        > > martr@...
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Cady godess" <cady_godess@...>
        > > To: <kafka-list@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:41 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [kafka-list] Gregor REALLY a bug?
        > >
        > >
        > > > I think he is definately really a bug. He
        > talks
        > > about
        > > > scurring on cielings and also his mother
        > reacts
        > > badly
        > > > to her first sight of him after the
        > > transformation.
        > > > The other thing is that one of the physical
        > > causes of
        > > > his death is an apple that is thrown at him.
        > That
        > > > would not kill a human. Also if he is not
        > really
        > > a bug
        > > > why remove all his furniture.
        > > >
        > > > Amy
        > > >
        > > > --- jaimejwilson2000
        > <jaimej_wilson@...>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > How does one really know that Gregor is
        > > actually a
        > > > > bug? It says he
        > > > > feels like a bug... but perhaps a mental
        > > illness
        > > > > only makes himself
        > > > > think or feel he is a bug.
        > > > > Evidence to support this claim is the fact
        > that
        > > his
        > > > > parents hardly
        > > > > react to what has supposedly happened to
        > > > > Gregor...Everyone seems very
        > > > > calm considering the circumstances, even
        > gregor
        > > > > himself!
        > > > > Perhaps being a bug is a metaphor for how
        > he
        > > feels,
        > > > > and resides only
        > > > > in his mental state not his actual physical
        > > state.
        > > > > To the world he
        > > > > appears as Gregor the human, just a
        > depressed,
        > > > > mentally ill version
        > > > > of whom his family is ashamed... Mental
        > illness
        > > was
        > > > > certainly taboo
        > > > > at this time when the story was written...
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > =====
        > > > Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the
        > > DONT's
        > > > Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES,
        > the
        > > WON'TS
        > > > Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close
        > to
        > > me
        > > > ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be
        > > >
        > > > __________________________________
        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage,
        > less
        > > spam
        > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        _________________________________________________________________
        > > Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB
        > > options now! Go to
        > >
        > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au&page=hotmail/es2
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > =====
        > Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the DONT's
        > Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the
        > WON'TS
        > Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close to me
        > ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be
        >
        > __________________________________
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on
        > time.
        > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
        >
        >
        >
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kafka-list/
        >
        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
        > email to:
        > kafka-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
        > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >


        =====
        Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the DONT's
        Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the WON'TS
        Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close to me
        ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be

        __________________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
        http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Putrescent Stench of Death
        Something can be written in a concrete, or literal, context, without actually having happened in real life. There s nothing in the text itself that implies the
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 27, 2004
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          Something can be written in a concrete, or literal,
          context, without actually having happened in real
          life.

          There's nothing in the text itself that implies the
          transformation is "surreal" or "a dream." Kafka often
          writes about things happening that don't happen in
          real life (as far as we know), and these events are
          symbolic, but to be a symbol, something must first be
          the thing it is before it can be what it symbolizes.
          Kafka's style is very dry, mundane, and unadorned, I
          think that's because he wanted the events to seem more
          believable. When something is surreal, there is an
          ambiguity as to what's happening, what's being
          represented. Kafka's writing isn't like that at all.
          It's mundane, clear, and precise. Think of painting.
          Salvador Dali is surrealist. Kafka would be more like
          the modernist painting of the fall of Icarus; the
          majority of the painting is taken up by workers
          plowing in a field, showing everyday activities, and
          in the background, there's a little figure falling
          from the sky, barely noticable. This is more Kafka's
          style to me.

          How can the story go on after Gregor is dead if he's
          dreaming it? Also, if it's a dream, why is it told
          through 3rd person? There's a difference between
          soemthing having metaphorical implications, and
          actually being a metaphor.

          I actually think it's important that Gregor's
          metamorphosis is a literal one. If his change is just
          a dream, then the whole story is a kind of "trick,"
          and nothing significant is really coming from the
          change. However, if it is a literal change, then there
          is a definite revelation going on, to Gregor and to
          the people around him.

          Andrew

          =====
          For the most part the phenomenology of the world is a nightmarish excrescence.


          All these buildings. What did Talbert want to do--sodomize the Festival Hall?

          __________________________________
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        • Cady godess
          Very interesting. ... ===== Listen to the MUSTN TS child, Listen to the DONT s Listen to the SHOULDN TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the WON TS Listen to the NEVER HAVES,
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 29, 2004
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            Very interesting.

            --- Putrescent Stench of Death
            <putrescent_stench@...> wrote:
            > Something can be written in a concrete, or literal,
            > context, without actually having happened in real
            > life.
            >
            > There's nothing in the text itself that implies the
            > transformation is "surreal" or "a dream." Kafka
            > often
            > writes about things happening that don't happen in
            > real life (as far as we know), and these events are
            > symbolic, but to be a symbol, something must first
            > be
            > the thing it is before it can be what it symbolizes.
            > Kafka's style is very dry, mundane, and unadorned, I
            > think that's because he wanted the events to seem
            > more
            > believable. When something is surreal, there is an
            > ambiguity as to what's happening, what's being
            > represented. Kafka's writing isn't like that at all.
            > It's mundane, clear, and precise. Think of painting.
            > Salvador Dali is surrealist. Kafka would be more
            > like
            > the modernist painting of the fall of Icarus; the
            > majority of the painting is taken up by workers
            > plowing in a field, showing everyday activities, and
            > in the background, there's a little figure falling
            > from the sky, barely noticable. This is more Kafka's
            > style to me.
            >
            > How can the story go on after Gregor is dead if he's
            > dreaming it? Also, if it's a dream, why is it told
            > through 3rd person? There's a difference between
            > soemthing having metaphorical implications, and
            > actually being a metaphor.
            >
            > I actually think it's important that Gregor's
            > metamorphosis is a literal one. If his change is
            > just
            > a dream, then the whole story is a kind of "trick,"
            > and nothing significant is really coming from the
            > change. However, if it is a literal change, then
            > there
            > is a definite revelation going on, to Gregor and to
            > the people around him.
            >
            > Andrew
            >
            > =====
            > For the most part the phenomenology of the world is
            > a nightmarish excrescence.
            >
            >
            > All these buildings. What did Talbert want to
            > do--sodomize the Festival Hall?
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool.
            > Try it!
            > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
            >


            =====
            Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the DONT's
            Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the WON'TS
            Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close to me
            ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be

            __________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
            http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
          • Mykel
            it s has been said that maybe Gregor was dead from the start, that in fact the metamorphosis in itself is DEATH that DEATH is the final form. In my mind as I
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 4, 2004
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              it's has been said that maybe Gregor was dead from the start, that
              in fact the metamorphosis in itself is "DEATH" that DEATH is the
              final form.

              In my mind as I read the metamorphisis . I noticed that this
              metamorphisis doesn't take place EVER. if GREGOR is a BUG when he
              awakes. We as the reader never SEE ANY METAMORPHOSIS?... however we
              do witness the family metamorphosis. Right in front of our eyes...
              they change constantly. The story continues after Gregor dies from
              an apple wound... because the metamorphosis has yet to be
              witnessed... Specially the sister who goes from young girl who in
              the beginning is CRYING while Gregor's boss comes to check up on
              him... to WORKING WOMEN.. worthy to be married off.


              --- In kafka-list@yahoogroups.com, Cady godess <cady_godess@y...>
              wrote:
              > Very interesting.
              >
              > --- Putrescent Stench of Death
              > <putrescent_stench@y...> wrote:
              > > Something can be written in a concrete, or literal,
              > > context, without actually having happened in real
              > > life.
              > >
              > > There's nothing in the text itself that implies the
              > > transformation is "surreal" or "a dream." Kafka
              > > often
              > > writes about things happening that don't happen in
              > > real life (as far as we know), and these events are
              > > symbolic, but to be a symbol, something must first
              > > be
              > > the thing it is before it can be what it symbolizes.
              > > Kafka's style is very dry, mundane, and unadorned, I
              > > think that's because he wanted the events to seem
              > > more
              > > believable. When something is surreal, there is an
              > > ambiguity as to what's happening, what's being
              > > represented. Kafka's writing isn't like that at all.
              > > It's mundane, clear, and precise. Think of painting.
              > > Salvador Dali is surrealist. Kafka would be more
              > > like
              > > the modernist painting of the fall of Icarus; the
              > > majority of the painting is taken up by workers
              > > plowing in a field, showing everyday activities, and
              > > in the background, there's a little figure falling
              > > from the sky, barely noticable. This is more Kafka's
              > > style to me.
              > >
              > > How can the story go on after Gregor is dead if he's
              > > dreaming it? Also, if it's a dream, why is it told
              > > through 3rd person? There's a difference between
              > > soemthing having metaphorical implications, and
              > > actually being a metaphor.
              > >
              > > I actually think it's important that Gregor's
              > > metamorphosis is a literal one. If his change is
              > > just
              > > a dream, then the whole story is a kind of "trick,"
              > > and nothing significant is really coming from the
              > > change. However, if it is a literal change, then
              > > there
              > > is a definite revelation going on, to Gregor and to
              > > the people around him.
              > >
              > > Andrew
              > >
              > > =====
              > > For the most part the phenomenology of the world is
              > > a nightmarish excrescence.
              > >
              > >
              > > All these buildings. What did Talbert want to
              > > do--sodomize the Festival Hall?
              > >
              > > __________________________________
              > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool.
              > > Try it!
              > > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
              > >
              >
              >
              > =====
              > Listen to the MUSTN'TS child, Listen to the DONT's
              > Listen to the SHOULDN'TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the WON'TS
              > Listen to the NEVER HAVES, then Listen close to me
              > ANYTHING can happen child, ANYTHING can be
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
              > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
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