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Re: What rig should I use

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  • skarv2006
    ... Dear Sir. You say you intend to cross an ocean. I don t think lee boards is the best choice for ocean service. I would use a semi long keel(long enough to
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 10, 2007
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      --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "whec651972" <ltittle@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi I'm building a steel boat 28'long x 8' wide 2'6" draft displacement
      > 9000 - 10000 lbs with lee boards. It has Bolgers slab sides and high
      > free board, Tantons constant deadrise on the bottom for easy building
      > Ive read a bunch of messages on this site and am a little confused. I
      > have Van Loan's book and was going to use his design with a single sail
      > around 500 square ft because two masts seem like alot of weight. I am
      > looking for an easy to build, cheap and easy to handle sail, no hinges
      > or flaps should I use Reddish, Fenix , Hastler, Van Loan, Colvin. What
      > would give me the best all around preformance
      > I intend to cross an ocean when I retire in few years. I sure would
      > appreciate any help
      >

      Dear Sir.

      You say you intend to cross an ocean. I don't think lee boards is the
      best choice for ocean service. I would use a semi long keel(long
      enough to stand on with the help of two legs). Or twin keels. The boat
      have to be self righting for ocean service.
      Hatches and port holes must stand up to enormous forces if a storm hit.
      Regarding the rig. You should keep in mind that it must be practical
      and easily handled. You should go for parallel battens. You may well
      use a sail that is more or less triangular(shorter battens aloft). A
      sail like that(see High Tea) will need a very slight fanning of the
      battens, but not near what is used on Colvin sails.Only so much that
      the length along one batten is equal to the length from the aft end of
      the batten, to the forward end of the batten above.
      If you have flat sail, you should not use a very long keel. The boat
      may stop and refuse to come around when beating. Even long keeled gaff
      riggers have such problems.
      You should not be afraid of hinges in the battens, as the hinge will
      be the strongest part of a batten assembly. A slight camber by means
      of hinges, or sewn in camber, will give you more power if you have to
      beat against the wind.

      Regards
      Victor Winterthun
    • steelsil2
      In all candor, I think you need to study a lot more than you have before you consider designing a boat for ocean crossing, or even choosing one. I have known
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 10, 2007
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        In all candor, I think you need to study a lot more than you have
        before you consider designing a boat for ocean crossing, or even
        choosing one. I have known a number of people who have disappeared at
        sea on small craft, and I would hate for you to be one of them. 28'
        is too small for steel construction, because the minimum steel
        scantlings are so very heavy, and no experienced cruiser would
        consider a leeboard design to be a desirable sea boat, or even a safe
        one. Before you study design and construction, I would suggest you
        look into storm management, reading books such as "Heavy Weather
        Sailing," and "Voyaging Under Sail," the latter by Eric Hiscock.

        Tim Dunn

        --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "whec651972" <ltittle@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi I'm building a steel boat 28'long x 8' wide 2'6" draft displacement
        > 9000 - 10000 lbs with lee boards. It has Bolgers slab sides and high
        > free board, Tantons constant deadrise on the bottom for easy building
        > Ive read a bunch of messages on this site and am a little confused. I
        > have Van Loan's book and was going to use his design with a single sail
        > around 500 square ft because two masts seem like alot of weight. I am
        > looking for an easy to build, cheap and easy to handle sail, no hinges
        > or flaps should I use Reddish, Fenix , Hastler, Van Loan, Colvin. What
        > would give me the best all around preformance
        > I intend to cross an ocean when I retire in few years. I sure would
        > appreciate any help
        >
      • Stuart Crawford
        While I would not want leeboards on an open water boat, they are not necessarily lacking in sea worthiness. Take for example the Phil Bolger designed
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 10, 2007
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          While I would not want leeboards on an open water boat, they are not
          necessarily lacking in sea worthiness. Take for example the Phil Bolger
          designed Manatee/Alert which has crossed the Atlantic. Albeit the rig did
          fail and was replaced with a straight Junk rig, the leeboards did not cause
          any safety issues.

          Stuart.


          On 11/8/07 7:43 AM, "steelsil2" <steelsil2@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          >
          > In all candor, I think you need to study a lot more than you have
          > before you consider designing a boat for ocean crossing, or even
          > choosing one. I have known a number of people who have disappeared at
          > sea on small craft, and I would hate for you to be one of them. 28'
          > is too small for steel construction, because the minimum steel
          > scantlings are so very heavy, and no experienced cruiser would
          > consider a leeboard design to be a desirable sea boat, or even a safe
          > one. Before you study design and construction, I would suggest you
          > look into storm management, reading books such as "Heavy Weather
          > Sailing," and "Voyaging Under Sail," the latter by Eric Hiscock.
          >
          > Tim Dunn
          >
          > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com <mailto:junkrig%40yahoogroups.com> ,
          > "whec651972" <ltittle@...> wrote:
          >> >
          >> > Hi I'm building a steel boat 28'long x 8' wide 2'6" draft displacement
          >> > 9000 - 10000 lbs with lee boards. It has Bolgers slab sides and high
          >> > free board, Tantons constant deadrise on the bottom for easy building
          >> > Ive read a bunch of messages on this site and am a little confused. I
          >> > have Van Loan's book and was going to use his design with a single sail
          >> > around 500 square ft because two masts seem like alot of weight. I am
          >> > looking for an easy to build, cheap and easy to handle sail, no hinges
          >> > or flaps should I use Reddish, Fenix , Hastler, Van Loan, Colvin. What
          >> > would give me the best all around preformance
          >> > I intend to cross an ocean when I retire in few years. I sure would
          >> > appreciate any help
          >> >
          >
          >
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • steelsil2
          Hi, Stuart It isn t that lee boards are problematic, it is that they go with shoal draft, which means not much righting moment at extreme heel. You need a
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 10, 2007
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            Hi, Stuart

            It isn't that lee boards are problematic, it is that they go with
            shoal draft, which means not much righting moment at extreme heel.
            You need a reasonably deep keel filled with ballast in a reasonable
            proportion to the displacement as a whole to keep you upright, or
            return you to upright, in extreme conditions. I have surfed down 25'
            waves, and I wouldn't want to do that in the boat you described. The
            fact that somebody survived an ocean crossing in such a boat doesn't
            make that boat suitable, it means that that sailor was lucky. Are you
            always really, really lucky? I'm not. I wasn't joking about the need
            to read up on storm management-before you buy or build a boat, if you
            plan to go offshore.

            TD

            --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, Stuart Crawford <stuartcnz@...> wrote:
            >
            > While I would not want leeboards on an open water boat, they are not
            > necessarily lacking in sea worthiness. Take for example the Phil Bolger
            > designed Manatee/Alert which has crossed the Atlantic. Albeit the
            rig did
            > fail and was replaced with a straight Junk rig, the leeboards did
            not cause
            > any safety issues.
            >
            > Stuart.
            >
            >
            > On 11/8/07 7:43 AM, "steelsil2" <steelsil2@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > In all candor, I think you need to study a lot more than you have
            > > before you consider designing a boat for ocean crossing, or even
            > > choosing one. I have known a number of people who have disappeared at
            > > sea on small craft, and I would hate for you to be one of them. 28'
            > > is too small for steel construction, because the minimum steel
            > > scantlings are so very heavy, and no experienced cruiser would
            > > consider a leeboard design to be a desirable sea boat, or even a safe
            > > one. Before you study design and construction, I would suggest you
            > > look into storm management, reading books such as "Heavy Weather
            > > Sailing," and "Voyaging Under Sail," the latter by Eric Hiscock.
            > >
            > > Tim Dunn
            > >
            > > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com <mailto:junkrig%40yahoogroups.com> ,
            > > "whec651972" <ltittle@> wrote:
            > >> >
            > >> > Hi I'm building a steel boat 28'long x 8' wide 2'6" draft
            displacement
            > >> > 9000 - 10000 lbs with lee boards. It has Bolgers slab sides and
            high
            > >> > free board, Tantons constant deadrise on the bottom for easy
            building
            > >> > Ive read a bunch of messages on this site and am a little
            confused. I
            > >> > have Van Loan's book and was going to use his design with a
            single sail
            > >> > around 500 square ft because two masts seem like alot of
            weight. I am
            > >> > looking for an easy to build, cheap and easy to handle sail, no
            hinges
            > >> > or flaps should I use Reddish, Fenix , Hastler, Van Loan,
            Colvin. What
            > >> > would give me the best all around preformance
            > >> > I intend to cross an ocean when I retire in few years. I sure would
            > >> > appreciate any help
            > >> >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Stuart Crawford
            Phil Bolger has designed a more diverse range of boats than any one else I know of. To quote some of his comments about one of his designs called Romp Length
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 11, 2007
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              Phil Bolger has designed a more diverse range of boats than any one else I
              know of. To quote some of his comments about one of his designs called Romp
              Length 30¹ Beam 8¹4² Draft 1¹6² centre board. From page 85 of Different
              Boats.

              ³It¹s also been argued, with good reason I think, that shallow boats are the
              most sea-worthy, because they skitter away from the blow of a cresting sea
              and frustrate it¹s power. Certainly they pass over deadly perils that snare
              deeper boats. I surmise that boats of this particular model move with little
              disturbance of the water because there is no way a shallow body can generate
              a deep wave. This model-with it¹s buttock lines level amidships and sharply
              turned up at the ends, sharp bow, and slack quarters- is against all the
              instructions of the textbooks I was brought up with. I came around to it by
              slow degrees; 12-meters and Thames barges, cargo motorships and IOR racers
              all furnished clues to it.²

              And from page 86, on the same design.

              ³There¹s no such thing as an uncapsizable boat; if you doubt it, watch a
              model in the surf at the beach. But there are self-righting boats, and one
              of the prerequisites of self-righting is that the boat must be high-sided
              relative to her deck breadth. This one has her deck carried so high, and is
              pinched so narrow amid-ships, that she can be depended on to come upright
              more quickly after a knockdown, or even a rollover, than boats much deeper
              and more heavily ballasted. I¹ve seen very few boats in which I¹d have less
              sense of danger offshore than in this one.²

              My personal preference is for full keel heavy displacement hulls, but as the
              above shows, it is not the only answer to a sea-worthy boat. Incidentally,
              the above mentioned boat has survived going through the eye of a hurricane,
              so it¹s sea-worthiness is not just academic conjecture.

              Stuart.


              On 11/8/07 6:54 PM, "steelsil2" <steelsil2@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi, Stuart
              >
              > It isn't that lee boards are problematic, it is that they go with
              > shoal draft, which means not much righting moment at extreme heel.
              > You need a reasonably deep keel filled with ballast in a reasonable
              > proportion to the displacement as a whole to keep you upright, or
              > return you to upright, in extreme conditions. I have surfed down 25'
              > waves, and I wouldn't want to do that in the boat you described. The
              > fact that somebody survived an ocean crossing in such a boat doesn't
              > make that boat suitable, it means that that sailor was lucky. Are you
              > always really, really lucky? I'm not. I wasn't joking about the need
              > to read up on storm management-before you buy or build a boat, if you
              > plan to go offshore.
              >
              > TD



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • lself100
              There have been circumnavigations by shoal draft boats. Voss s Tillicum was a canoe. Slocum s Spray didn t have much draft. Neither did his Liberdade. Maybe
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 11, 2007
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                There have been circumnavigations by shoal draft boats. Voss's
                Tillicum was a canoe. Slocum's Spray didn't have much draft. Neither
                did his Liberdade. Maybe these were stunts by exceptional seaman.
                It's likely that if you make long offshore sea voyages with a
                smallish shoal draft boat you'll become an exceptional seaman or......

                lself

                --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, Stuart Crawford <stuartcnz@...> wrote:
                >
                > Phil Bolger has designed a more diverse range of boats than any one
                else I
                > know of. To quote some of his comments about one of his designs
                called Romp
                > Length 30¹ Beam 8¹4² Draft 1¹6² centre board. From page 85 of
                Different
                > Boats.
                >
                > ³It¹s also been argued, with good reason I think, that shallow
                boats are the
                > most sea-worthy, because they skitter away from the blow of a
                cresting sea
                > and frustrate it¹s power. Certainly they pass over deadly perils
                that snare
                > deeper boats. I surmise that boats of this particular model move
                with little
                > disturbance of the water because there is no way a shallow body can
                generate
                > a deep wave. This model-with it¹s buttock lines level amidships and
                sharply
                > turned up at the ends, sharp bow, and slack quarters- is against
                all the
                > instructions of the textbooks I was brought up with. I came around
                to it by
                > slow degrees; 12-meters and Thames barges, cargo motorships and IOR
                racers
                > all furnished clues to it.²
                >
                > And from page 86, on the same design.
                >
                > ³There¹s no such thing as an uncapsizable boat; if you doubt it,
                watch a
                > model in the surf at the beach. But there are self-righting boats,
                and one
                > of the prerequisites of self-righting is that the boat must be high-
                sided
                > relative to her deck breadth. This one has her deck carried so
                high, and is
                > pinched so narrow amid-ships, that she can be depended on to come
                upright
                > more quickly after a knockdown, or even a rollover, than boats much
                deeper
                > and more heavily ballasted. I¹ve seen very few boats in which I¹d
                have less
                > sense of danger offshore than in this one.²
                >
                > My personal preference is for full keel heavy displacement hulls,
                but as the
                > above shows, it is not the only answer to a sea-worthy boat.
                Incidentally,
                > the above mentioned boat has survived going through the eye of a
                hurricane,
                > so it¹s sea-worthiness is not just academic conjecture.
                >
                > Stuart.
                >
                >
                > On 11/8/07 6:54 PM, "steelsil2" <steelsil2@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi, Stuart
                > >
                > > It isn't that lee boards are problematic, it is that they go with
                > > shoal draft, which means not much righting moment at extreme heel.
                > > You need a reasonably deep keel filled with ballast in a
                reasonable
                > > proportion to the displacement as a whole to keep you upright, or
                > > return you to upright, in extreme conditions. I have surfed down
                25'
                > > waves, and I wouldn't want to do that in the boat you described.
                The
                > > fact that somebody survived an ocean crossing in such a boat
                doesn't
                > > make that boat suitable, it means that that sailor was lucky. Are
                you
                > > always really, really lucky? I'm not. I wasn't joking about the
                need
                > > to read up on storm management-before you buy or build a boat, if
                you
                > > plan to go offshore.
                > >
                > > TD
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • lself100
                ... I m not so sure that this is entirely true. I ve not seen the righting arm vs heel angle graph for a narrow, shoal draft(2 ft), 50% ballast, leeboard
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 11, 2007
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                  --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, "steelsil2" <steelsil2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi, Stuart
                  >
                  > It isn't that lee boards are problematic, it is that they go with
                  > shoal draft, which means not much righting moment at extreme heel.

                  I'm not so sure that this is entirely true. I've not seen the
                  righting arm vs heel angle graph for a narrow, shoal draft(2 ft), 50%
                  ballast, leeboard design like for example the fiberglass version of
                  L.F. Herreshoff's Meadowlark 37

                  http://community-2.webtv.net/@HH!6E!44!6D442E8CA3BA/geosite/
                  TheSailingVessel/index.html

                  Perhaps it is unsafe.


                  > You need a reasonably deep keel filled with ballast in a reasonable
                  > proportion to the displacement as a whole to keep you upright, or
                  > return you to upright, in extreme conditions. I have surfed down
                  25'
                  > waves, and I wouldn't want to do that in the boat you described.
                  The
                  > fact that somebody survived an ocean crossing in such a boat doesn't
                  > make that boat suitable, it means that that sailor was lucky. Are
                  you
                  > always really, really lucky? I'm not. I wasn't joking about the
                  need
                  > to read up on storm management-before you buy or build a boat, if
                  you
                  > plan to go offshore.
                  >
                  > TD
                  >
                  > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com, Stuart Crawford <stuartcnz@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > While I would not want leeboards on an open water boat, they are
                  not
                  > > necessarily lacking in sea worthiness. Take for example the Phil
                  Bolger
                  > > designed Manatee/Alert which has crossed the Atlantic. Albeit the
                  > rig did
                  > > fail and was replaced with a straight Junk rig, the leeboards did
                  > not cause
                  > > any safety issues.
                  > >
                  > > Stuart.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On 11/8/07 7:43 AM, "steelsil2" <steelsil2@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > In all candor, I think you need to study a lot more than you
                  have
                  > > > before you consider designing a boat for ocean crossing, or even
                  > > > choosing one. I have known a number of people who have
                  disappeared at
                  > > > sea on small craft, and I would hate for you to be one of
                  them. 28'
                  > > > is too small for steel construction, because the minimum steel
                  > > > scantlings are so very heavy, and no experienced cruiser would
                  > > > consider a leeboard design to be a desirable sea boat, or even
                  a safe
                  > > > one. Before you study design and construction, I would suggest
                  you
                  > > > look into storm management, reading books such as "Heavy Weather
                  > > > Sailing," and "Voyaging Under Sail," the latter by Eric Hiscock.
                  > > >
                  > > > Tim Dunn
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In junkrig@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:junkrig%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                  > > > "whec651972" <ltittle@> wrote:
                  > > >> >
                  > > >> > Hi I'm building a steel boat 28'long x 8' wide 2'6" draft
                  > displacement
                  > > >> > 9000 - 10000 lbs with lee boards. It has Bolgers slab sides
                  and
                  > high
                  > > >> > free board, Tantons constant deadrise on the bottom for easy
                  > building
                  > > >> > Ive read a bunch of messages on this site and am a little
                  > confused. I
                  > > >> > have Van Loan's book and was going to use his design with a
                  > single sail
                  > > >> > around 500 square ft because two masts seem like alot of
                  > weight. I am
                  > > >> > looking for an easy to build, cheap and easy to handle sail,
                  no
                  > hinges
                  > > >> > or flaps should I use Reddish, Fenix , Hastler, Van Loan,
                  > Colvin. What
                  > > >> > would give me the best all around preformance
                  > > >> > I intend to cross an ocean when I retire in few years. I
                  sure would
                  > > >> > appreciate any help
                  > > >> >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • steelsil2
                  Stuart, You are going to have a really huge displacement if you make a steel 28 footer and give it a 50% ballast to displacement ratio, in an effort to
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 11, 2007
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                    Stuart,

                    You are going to have a really huge displacement if you make a steel
                    28 footer and give it a 50% ballast to displacement ratio, in an
                    effort to compensate for the shallow draft. Obviously, you can
                    compensate for shallow draft with more ballast, as x ballast times y
                    feet equals z footpounds of righting moment, but it takes an awfully
                    big "x" to overcome a small "y".

                    You will note that the Meadowlark wasn't made out of steel, and wasn't
                    designed for offshore use. If you had gone to Herreshoff and asked
                    him to design you a boat for crossing the ocean, I am pretty sure the
                    outcome wouldn't look too much like the Meadowlark. For an
                    experienced view of offshore sailing on a Meadowlark, read:
                    http://www.everythingboats.com/catboat/forum/bbs.pl?read=5714

                    The part about freeboard is true, as it gives you a bigger x when
                    knocked down, but big freeboard is not penalty free. It seems to me
                    that the net effects of all of your ideas is to make a boat that won't
                    sail to windward very well at all. This business about clawing off of
                    a lee shore in a storm isn't just talk--I've had to do it.

                    I also think I'd rather have my righting moment kick in before I am
                    knocked down, though admittedly, initial stability isn't ballast's
                    strong suit. Yet another issue with shoal hulls being knocked down is
                    that they usually have shallow rudders, which will have no bite on the
                    water when extremely heeled.

                    As for making more or less waves depending on your hull form,
                    thousands of miles of gale force wind doesn't need your little boat's
                    help to make big, nasty waves. Add in cross seas from other wind
                    systems, and in the worst case, maybe some current or shallow waters,
                    and the effect of your hull is really quite insignificant.

                    You did write to our board asking for advice, but don't seem too happy
                    with the advice you have gotten. However, if you try a variety of
                    different offshore sailing websites, I don't think you will find many
                    people giving you very different advice, and I suspect that you will
                    find no encouragement at all from those who have actually done ocean
                    crossings on small craft.

                    TD
                  • Stuart Crawford
                    TD, You might want to actually read some of these posts before spouting off! I am not the same person who was asking about steel construction or lee boards. I
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 11, 2007
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                      TD,
                      You might want to actually read some of these posts before spouting off!

                      I am not the same person who was asking about steel construction or lee
                      boards. I was responding to a response you made to some one else¹s question,
                      which needed was not exactly on the mark. I also stated in my last response
                      to you that my personal preference is for full keel heavy displacement
                      hulls. Some one other than me brought Meadow larks into the topic.

                      You obviously know nothing of my background, which as it happens, does have
                      experience in offshore conditions, in storm weather and have also had to
                      claw off lee shores.

                      The point I was making, was that safe offshore boat designs are not limited
                      to one particular type. The reference I gave was from a designer who has a
                      huge amount of experience designing well proven boats of huge
                      diversification, including the type you are happiest with.

                      Before suggesting some one has a look at different offshore sailing web
                      sites, I would be suggesting that they correspond with some professional
                      designers with proven offshore designs, as they will know with much more
                      accuracy about design parameters and the engineering involved than 99% of
                      those who use these forums. Remember that just being an experienced sailor
                      does, in of it self, not suggest any academic understanding of naval design,
                      which though many may disagree, is required, no matter how much practical
                      experience one has.

                      Rant off.

                      Stuart.


                      On 12/8/07 11:26 AM, "steelsil2" <steelsil2@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Stuart,
                      >
                      > You are going to have a really huge displacement if you make a steel
                      > 28 footer and give it a 50% ballast to displacement ratio, in an
                      > effort to compensate for the shallow draft. Obviously, you can
                      > compensate for shallow draft with more ballast, as x ballast times y
                      > feet equals z footpounds of righting moment, but it takes an awfully
                      > big "x" to overcome a small "y".
                      >
                      > You will note that the Meadowlark wasn't made out of steel, and wasn't
                      > designed for offshore use. If you had gone to Herreshoff and asked
                      > him to design you a boat for crossing the ocean, I am pretty sure the
                      > outcome wouldn't look too much like the Meadowlark. For an
                      > experienced view of offshore sailing on a Meadowlark, read:
                      > http://www.everythingboats.com/catboat/forum/bbs.pl?read=5714
                      >
                      > The part about freeboard is true, as it gives you a bigger x when
                      > knocked down, but big freeboard is not penalty free. It seems to me
                      > that the net effects of all of your ideas is to make a boat that won't
                      > sail to windward very well at all. This business about clawing off of
                      > a lee shore in a storm isn't just talk--I've had to do it.
                      >
                      > I also think I'd rather have my righting moment kick in before I am
                      > knocked down, though admittedly, initial stability isn't ballast's
                      > strong suit. Yet another issue with shoal hulls being knocked down is
                      > that they usually have shallow rudders, which will have no bite on the
                      > water when extremely heeled.
                      >
                      > As for making more or less waves depending on your hull form,
                      > thousands of miles of gale force wind doesn't need your little boat's
                      > help to make big, nasty waves. Add in cross seas from other wind
                      > systems, and in the worst case, maybe some current or shallow waters,
                      > and the effect of your hull is really quite insignificant.
                      >
                      > You did write to our board asking for advice, but don't seem too happy
                      > with the advice you have gotten. However, if you try a variety of
                      > different offshore sailing websites, I don't think you will find many
                      > people giving you very different advice, and I suspect that you will
                      > find no encouragement at all from those who have actually done ocean
                      > crossings on small craft.
                      >
                      > TD
                      >
                      >
                      >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • steelsil2
                      Stuart, sorry to have confused you with another poster, but if we agree, what are we arguing about? On my bookshelf you will find, some of them loved half to
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 11, 2007
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                        Stuart, sorry to have confused you with another poster, but if we
                        agree, what are we arguing about?

                        On my bookshelf you will find, some of them loved half to death,
                        "Sailing Yacht Design," by Douglas Phillips-Birt, "Skene's Elements of
                        Yacht Design," updated by Kinny, "Principles of Yacht Design," by
                        Larsen and Eliasen, "Designing Power and Sail," by Edmunds, and a good
                        many similar books. I don't see any encouragement in any of them to
                        sail ultra heavy shoal draft leeboard vessels offshore. In fact, I
                        don't see any encouragement to make such small vessels out of steel
                        for use under any circumstances.

                        TD
                      • Michael Neverdosky
                        I see lots of opinions being presented as facts and that doesn t help the discussion much. There are lots of ways to design and build boats to cross oceans and
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 11, 2007
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                          I see lots of opinions being presented as facts and that doesn't help the
                          discussion much.

                          There are lots of ways to design and build boats to cross oceans and many
                          are quite sucessful. It matters less the style and type of boat as that the
                          boat and skipper work well together and in the conditions encountered in the
                          voyage.

                          I like to suggest that anyone thinking of crossing oceans go out and learn
                          to sail in small boats first then cross an ocean or two as crew with an
                          experienced skipper. Ideally these crossings should be on the same or
                          similar waters and seasons as you want to go.
                          If you still want to go then buy a boat that fits and go do it.
                          You cannot build a boat and equip it for a voyage cheaper than buying a boat
                          that is substantially ready.

                          It can be argued that the cheapest way is to buy a NEW boat, professionally
                          outfitted with the finest gear available and hire a good skipper to come
                          along. You pay more upfront and less along the way.

                          I would not try to design my own boat for ocean crossing until I had at
                          least 4 to 6 major crossings under my belt on at least 4 different boats.

                          The light/heavy, shoal/deep, narrow/wide, etc/etc points do not matter much
                          in isolation but are only part of the game.
                          The skipper must plan and execute the voyage in a manner consistent with the
                          vessel of choice. This includes but not limited to, choice of route, time of
                          departure, provisioning, spares, navigation, storm tactics (many never even
                          use these because they don't encounter a storm, don't count on it though),
                          landfall procedures and a thousand and one other details.

                          It is only when you define a specific situation that you can really call one
                          boat safer than another but what happens on a voyage may be quite different.

                          As for advice in books, if you look you can find almost anything.
                          Remember that the books are only as good as the people who wrote them. Look
                          for people who have done (and are doing) the types of trips you want to do
                          and read their books first and last and give them the most importance. Read
                          everything you can for perspective and to file away tricks that might come
                          in handy someday.

                          The best advice in any cruising book I have ever seen is from Lin and Larry
                          Pardey, "Go simple, go small, go NOW."

                          I have been to sea a few times in a few different boats/ships but it matters
                          little, there is always something new to learn and try.

                          The only way to be sure you will not DIE at SEA is to NEVER GO NEAR THE
                          OCEAN!

                          If you do choose to go to sea understand that every shoice you make is a
                          compromise and it is best if you know what you give up to get something
                          else.

                          michael


                          On 8/11/07, steelsil2 <steelsil2@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > On my bookshelf you will find, some of them loved half to death,
                          > "Sailing Yacht Design," by Douglas Phillips-Birt, "Skene's Elements of
                          > Yacht Design," updated by Kinny, "Principles of Yacht Design," by
                          > Larsen and Eliasen, "Designing Power and Sail," by Edmunds, and a good
                          > many similar books. I don't see any encouragement in any of them to
                          > sail ultra heavy shoal draft leeboard vessels offshore. In fact, I
                          > don't see any encouragement to make such small vessels out of steel
                          > for use under any circumstances.
                          >
                          > TD
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Wally Paine
                          With respect to Phil Bolger s comment below ...because they skitter away from the blow of a cresting sea and frustrate it¹s power. It seems to me that
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 12, 2007
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                            With respect to Phil Bolger's comment below
                            "...because they skitter away from the
                            blow of a cresting sea and frustrate it¹s power." It
                            seems to me that though the boat avoids much pounding,
                            it is not so of the people inside her, who are sharply
                            accelerated each "skitter". A heavier boat with a good
                            grip on the water (i.e. large keel area) it is hoped
                            will take the pounding and survive it and so protect
                            the more venerable flesh and bone in her.
                            This seems to be one of the findings whenever events
                            such as the 1979 Fastnet Race are discussed.

                            Wally Paine

                            --- Stuart Crawford <stuartcnz@...> wrote:

                            > Phil Bolger has designed a more diverse range of
                            > boats than any one else I
                            > know of. To quote some of his comments about one of
                            > his designs called Romp
                            > Length 30¹ Beam 8¹4² Draft 1¹6² centre board. From
                            > page 85 of Different
                            > Boats.
                            >
                            > ³It¹s also been argued, with good reason I think,
                            > that shallow boats are the
                            > most sea-worthy, because they skitter away from the
                            > blow of a cresting sea
                            > and frustrate it¹s power. Certainly they pass over
                            > deadly perils that snare
                            > deeper boats. I surmise that boats of this
                            > particular model move with little
                            > disturbance of the water because there is no way a
                            > shallow body can generate
                            > a deep wave. This model-with it¹s buttock lines
                            > level amidships and sharply
                            > turned up at the ends, sharp bow, and slack
                            > quarters- is against all the
                            > instructions of the textbooks I was brought up with.
                            > I came around to it by
                            > slow degrees; 12-meters and Thames barges, cargo
                            > motorships and IOR racers
                            > all furnished clues to it.²
                            >
                            > And from page 86, on the same design.
                            >
                            > ³There¹s no such thing as an uncapsizable boat; if
                            > you doubt it, watch a
                            > model in the surf at the beach. But there are
                            > self-righting boats, and one
                            > of the prerequisites of self-righting is that the
                            > boat must be high-sided
                            > relative to her deck breadth. This one has her deck
                            > carried so high, and is
                            > pinched so narrow amid-ships, that she can be
                            > depended on to come upright
                            > more quickly after a knockdown, or even a rollover,
                            > than boats much deeper
                            > and more heavily ballasted. I¹ve seen very few boats
                            > in which I¹d have less
                            > sense of danger offshore than in this one.²
                            >
                            > My personal preference is for full keel heavy
                            > displacement hulls, but as the
                            > above shows, it is not the only answer to a
                            > sea-worthy boat. Incidentally,
                            > the above mentioned boat has survived going through
                            > the eye of a hurricane,
                            > so it¹s sea-worthiness is not just academic
                            > conjecture.
                            >
                            > Stuart.
                            >
                            >
                            > On 11/8/07 6:54 PM, "steelsil2"
                            > <steelsil2@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hi, Stuart
                            > >
                            > > It isn't that lee boards are problematic, it is
                            > that they go with
                            > > shoal draft, which means not much righting moment
                            > at extreme heel.
                            > > You need a reasonably deep keel filled with
                            > ballast in a reasonable
                            > > proportion to the displacement as a whole to keep
                            > you upright, or
                            > > return you to upright, in extreme conditions. I
                            > have surfed down 25'
                            > > waves, and I wouldn't want to do that in the boat
                            > you described. The
                            > > fact that somebody survived an ocean crossing in
                            > such a boat doesn't
                            > > make that boat suitable, it means that that sailor
                            > was lucky. Are you
                            > > always really, really lucky? I'm not. I wasn't
                            > joking about the need
                            > > to read up on storm management-before you buy or
                            > build a boat, if you
                            > > plan to go offshore.
                            > >
                            > > TD
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            >
                            >



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                          • Stuart Crawford
                            Another of the issues faced in the Fastnet disaster was that many boats failed to right them selves after capsize. My understanding of that particular issue,
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 12, 2007
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                              Another of the issues faced in the Fastnet disaster was that many boats
                              failed to right them selves after capsize. My understanding of that
                              particular issue, was not so much that they lacked good deep ballast so much
                              as, that they were very beamy, with not enough freeboard. Making them very
                              stable in an inverted position. Also the liferafts where not designed to
                              protect people in those winds, on square shaped waves and many of them
                              capsized as well. The design of life rafts were improved vastly after the 79
                              Fastnet race.

                              I¹m not disputing that Romp may not be the most comfortable boat in rough
                              weather, though I don¹t know if that is the case or not, but I do know that
                              it did survive going through the eye of a hurricane, with the crew intact.
                              This was not the case with many in the 79 Fastnet race.

                              What makes a heavier boat more comfortable is actually the weight higher up,
                              giving the hull inertia, not the keel below. I work on container ships, and
                              when loading them, the weight is spread up and out to the sides as it goes
                              higher. If you see photo¹s of a container ship travelling with less than a
                              full load you will see the deck cargo being more on the sides, often with
                              empty space in the middle. Also often the deck will have containers on it,
                              while the hold will only be half full. This slows down the moment of roll,
                              so instead of having a quick snappy roll, you get a long slow roll.

                              The more weight that you have down low in relation to the amount of weight
                              up high the faster and snappier roll you get, which in big boats can place
                              enormous stress on the hull.

                              The main benefits of a long keel are it¹s tracking ability and the benefits
                              that gives when heaving to. Which to me means more relaxed sailing, though
                              not necessarily the most manoeuvrable one.

                              Stuart.


                              On 12/8/07 10:22 PM, "Wally Paine" <wgpaine@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > With respect to Phil Bolger's comment below
                              > "...because they skitter away from the
                              > blow of a cresting sea and frustrate it¹s power." It
                              > seems to me that though the boat avoids much pounding,
                              > it is not so of the people inside her, who are sharply
                              > accelerated each "skitter". A heavier boat with a good
                              > grip on the water (i.e. large keel area) it is hoped
                              > will take the pounding and survive it and so protect
                              > the more venerable flesh and bone in her.
                              > This seems to be one of the findings whenever events
                              > such as the 1979 Fastnet Race are discussed.
                              >
                              > Wally Paine
                              >
                              > --- Stuart Crawford <stuartcnz@... <mailto:stuartcnz%40gmail.com> >
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >> > Phil Bolger has designed a more diverse range of
                              >> > boats than any one else I
                              >> > know of. To quote some of his comments about one of
                              >> > his designs called Romp
                              >> > Length 30¹ Beam 8¹4² Draft 1¹6² centre board. From
                              >> > page 85 of Different
                              >> > Boats.
                              >> >
                              >> > ³It¹s also been argued, with good reason I think,
                              >> > that shallow boats are the
                              >> > most sea-worthy, because they skitter away from the
                              >> > blow of a cresting sea
                              >> > and frustrate it¹s power. Certainly they pass over
                              >> > deadly perils that snare
                              >> > deeper boats. I surmise that boats of this
                              >> > particular model move with little
                              >> > disturbance of the water because there is no way a
                              >> > shallow body can generate
                              >> > a deep wave. This model-with it¹s buttock lines
                              >> > level amidships and sharply
                              >> > turned up at the ends, sharp bow, and slack
                              >> > quarters- is against all the
                              >> > instructions of the textbooks I was brought up with.
                              >> > I came around to it by
                              >> > slow degrees; 12-meters and Thames barges, cargo
                              >> > motorships and IOR racers
                              >> > all furnished clues to it.²
                              >> >
                              >> > And from page 86, on the same design.
                              >> >
                              >> > ³There¹s no such thing as an uncapsizable boat; if
                              >> > you doubt it, watch a
                              >> > model in the surf at the beach. But there are
                              >> > self-righting boats, and one
                              >> > of the prerequisites of self-righting is that the
                              >> > boat must be high-sided
                              >> > relative to her deck breadth. This one has her deck
                              >> > carried so high, and is
                              >> > pinched so narrow amid-ships, that she can be
                              >> > depended on to come upright
                              >> > more quickly after a knockdown, or even a rollover,
                              >> > than boats much deeper
                              >> > and more heavily ballasted. I¹ve seen very few boats
                              >> > in which I¹d have less
                              >> > sense of danger offshore than in this one.²
                              >> >
                              >> > My personal preference is for full keel heavy
                              >> > displacement hulls, but as the
                              >> > above shows, it is not the only answer to a
                              >> > sea-worthy boat. Incidentally,
                              >> > the above mentioned boat has survived going through
                              >> > the eye of a hurricane,
                              >> > so it¹s sea-worthiness is not just academic
                              >> > conjecture.
                              >> >
                              >> > Stuart.
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> > On 11/8/07 6:54 PM, "steelsil2"
                              >> > <steelsil2@... <mailto:steelsil2%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                              >> >
                              >>> > >
                              >>> > >
                              >>> > >
                              >>> > >
                              >>> > > Hi, Stuart
                              >>> > >
                              >>> > > It isn't that lee boards are problematic, it is
                              >> > that they go with
                              >>> > > shoal draft, which means not much righting moment
                              >> > at extreme heel.
                              >>> > > You need a reasonably deep keel filled with
                              >> > ballast in a reasonable
                              >>> > > proportion to the displacement as a whole to keep
                              >> > you upright, or
                              >>> > > return you to upright, in extreme conditions. I
                              >> > have surfed down 25'
                              >>> > > waves, and I wouldn't want to do that in the boat
                              >> > you described. The
                              >>> > > fact that somebody survived an ocean crossing in
                              >> > such a boat doesn't
                              >>> > > make that boat suitable, it means that that sailor
                              >> > was lucky. Are you
                              >>> > > always really, really lucky? I'm not. I wasn't
                              >> > joking about the need
                              >>> > > to read up on storm management-before you buy or
                              >> > build a boat, if you
                              >>> > > plan to go offshore.
                              >>> > >
                              >>> > > TD
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              >> > removed]
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >
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                              >
                              >




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